MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!

[Chris]

Back on topic:
If there are no ROMs or copyrited software included, and no trademark infringing words, the instructions on how to find the ROMs would be protected under our "Freedom of speech"

The US government cannot curtail your speech.  eBay is not the government, and has every right to control the speech on their servers.

[Shape D.]

For those advocating the shotgun approach, please see http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37779.0.html.

--Chris

And If you read the last post in that thread you will see that his auctions were pulled that originally used the MAME name. and didn't actually get removed until after he edited them. they were pulled because they originally contained the word mame.

<edit> heres an example 3" MAME Trackball this isn't a friggin' MAME trackball its a Happs 3" trackball and doesn't need to be advertised as such. <edit>

[spystyle]

Back on topic:
If there are no ROMs or copyrited software included, and no trademark infringing words, the instructions on how to find the ROMs would be protected under our "Freedom of speech"

The US government cannot curtail your speech.  eBay is not the government, and has every right to control the speech on their servers.

Just because they can get away with it, dosen't make it right

The MAMEdev's are being unreasonable on this point

[SirPoonga]

Assuming there is no plutonium included, that would be 100% legal.

Back on topic:
If there are no ROMs or copyrited software included, and no trademark infringing words, the instructions on how to find the ROMs would be protected under our "Freedom of speech"

You twisted my analogy, you assume just having an auction with the info.  No, I meant auction for something like a "MAME cabinet" and the description includes the info.  Completely different.  There is a difference between freedom of speech and right to speak

You could put up an auction saying where ROMs are, just don't do it and mention mame.  The mamedevs won't take that down because it doesn't involve mame.  That's someone else's policing.  Mamedevs don't want to be associated with the possible illegal downloads and such in auctions.  That's all that line means.

[spystyle]

SirPoonga

Respectfully, I did not intend to twist your words.


Craig

[Chris]

For those advocating the shotgun approach, please see http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37779.0.html.

--Chris

And If you read the last post in that thread you will see that his auctions were pulled that originally used the MAME name. and didn't actually get removed until after he edited them. they were pulled because they originally contained the word mame.

I didn't because that last post wasn't in the thread when I posted this.

[Shape D.]

Back on topic:
If there are no ROMs or copyrited software included, and no trademark infringing words, the instructions on how to find the ROMs would be protected under our "Freedom of speech"

The US government cannot curtail your speech. eBay is not the government, and has every right to control the speech on their servers.

Just because they can get away with it, dosen't make it right

The MAMEdev's are being unreasonable on this point

As a buisness ebay has the right to refuse buisness to anyone the want.
As creators of the MAME name, logo, software and the system most people on this board are using, the mame devs have the right to tell people when and where you can use thier name.
You couln't go onto ebay selling you own version of a sony playstatin as a "spystyle playstation".
The people who are using the word MAME in the title of their auction are using MAME's good name to sell thier product, and they don't have the right ot do that.

I didn't because that last post wasn't in the thread when I posted this.

Point taken.

[SirPoonga]

SirPoonga

Respectfully, I did not intend to twist your words.


Craig

I know, actually you just simplified my example into something that suited your point of view   Well, I guess that is twisting

[SirPoonga]

Anyway, back to what I said

You could put up an auction saying where ROMs are, just don't do it and mention mame.  The mamedevs won't take that down because it doesn't involve mame.  That's someone else's policing.  Mamedevs don't want to be associated with the possible illegal downloads and such in auctions.  That's all that line means

[Shape D.]

P.S if any of the mame Devs are reading this thread and need someone who is willing to waste an hour a day searching ebay and pulling auctions for you let me know.

[spystyle]

Shape D.
You didn't read all that I wrote, we are talking about 2 different things.

I'm saying MAME dev's shouldn't say we can't tell people how to get ROMs.

I'm saying those instructions fall under freedom of speech.

I am completely cool with them copyriting the word MAME(tm) and still allowing us to use it only in a pareticular way.

You should read what I write before jumping on my case

This thread is full of people who shoot first and read posts later!

[RayB]

Threads like this make baby jesus cry. 

[CheffoJeffo]

Shape D.
You didn't read all that I wrote, we are talking about 2 different things.

I'm saying MAME dev's shouldn't say we can't tell people how to get ROMs.

I'm saying those instructions fall under freedom of speech.

Uh, spystyle, I think maybe we have a Pot .. Kettle .. Black situation here -- it doesn't look like you read the whole note from the MAMEdevs, but rather picked one line in isolation.

The MAMEdevs are saying that you can't tell people how to get illegal ROMs IF you want to use the term MAME in your auction.

They're not curtailing your rights, they're limiting your use of the term MAME. If you want to post an auction telling the world how to get ROMs, they are saying that you don't have permission to use the term MAME.

Cheers.


EDIT: And, as others will doubtlessly point out, eBay doesn't have to allow that auction if they don't want to, just like the New York Times doesn't have to print an article you write on the subject.

[Shape D.]

You should read what I write before jumping on my case

This thread is full of people who shoot first and read posts later!

I actually did, thats what I was trying to point out in the first two sentences. my point is they have the right as the creators of the software (MAME) and the buisness holding the auctions (ebay) To limit how thier product is being sold, and displayed. including when people are selling things and including information for their customers how to get "MAME roms" (wich are really just roms anyways. They do not want to be associated with illegal ties to piracy and are covering thier own hinds. yes by freedom of speach you can tell people where to get roms. but If ebay doesn't want to be a part of it they don't have to allow you to inform people on thier site. just like if you told people here where to get roms saint or another mod would delete your instructions.

[Setabs]

6. You must not include any unlicensed game software (ROMs or CHDs) or artwork with your product. Furthermore, you must not provide information to those who purchase your product concerning where to obtain unlicensed game software.

7. You must not mislead the buyer with pictures or lists of games that do not come included with your product. Any games or pictures you use must refer to properly-licensed games that are included with the purchased product.

I don't see how this guidline has anything to do with MAME(tm).  Mainly the artwork seeing how they covered mame art work earlier.

 Is it really their responsibilty about the buyer being misleading w/ pictures and game lists.  Shouldn't that be an issue between the buyer and seller?

Just search for MAM3 next time.

Freedom of speech has nothing to do with e-bay.  It is a private buisness that can censor speach.  If they wanted to they could randomly pull auctions off for no reason, its their site.  I do think they give to much to the IP owners without hearing both sides.

I think the "compatible with MAME" should be aloud in titles.  I completely understand the "mame cabinet" problem.

[CheffoJeffo]

6. You must not include any unlicensed game software (ROMs or CHDs) or artwork with your product. Furthermore, you must not provide information to those who purchase your product concerning where to obtain unlicensed game software.

7. You must not mislead the buyer with pictures or lists of games that do not come included with your product. Any games or pictures you use must refer to properly-licensed games that are included with the purchased product.

I don't see how this guidline has anything to do with MAME(tm).  Mainly the artwork seeing how they covered mame art work earlier.

This is how:

Based on the abuses we have seen in the auctions on eBay and elsewhere, we are attempting to define rules surrounding the usage of the MAME trademark.

Below is what we currently have defined.

The numbered items are the rules surrounding the usage of the term MAME.

Cheers.

EDIT for typo.

[SirPoonga]

Bah, just go change your auctions to say emulation instead of mame and be done with it.  sheesh.

[jelwell]

Had to respond to this part -- I hope that in fact you never have seen an advertisement for a MAME DVD on this forum as I specifically have such things blocked.

Haze must have been talking about mame.net:


It's a shame that mame.net has to profit off of things like "Mame Arcade" and "Complete MAME Arcade". The last ad is my favorite:

"Mame Video Arcade Cabinet Play Centipede & 5000+ arcade games plus xbox on 1 video arcade cabinet".

And yes I know that you can't actually buy the 5000+ arcade games from that vendor - but the vendor did decide to take advantage of that keyword. Oh and I'll let you guys figure out which vendor, linked from mame.net, is selling a cd with a MAME32 binary on it.

I just think it sucks that MAMEdevs have decided to enforce trademark issues rather than licensing issues (trying to sell MAME binaries, or closed source derivatives).
Joseph Elwell.

[Shape D.]

Haze must have been talking about mame.net:

He could have been talking about here too. they do show up here every once in a while. It seems like saint does his best to keep them off, but they do pop up evry now and again. the only way to block them is to block the individual site.

[Haze]

Haze must have been talking about mame.net:

He could have been talking about here too. they do show up here every once in a while. It seems like saint does his best to keep them off, but they do pop up evry now and again. the only way to block them is to block the individual site.

I was talking about here, I've seen a few on my visits.

Believe it or not we've been as tough as we can be with the ones on Mame.net, the problem is half of the remaining ones seem to be some kind of generic ads rather than for a specific seller...  We don't have direct control over the advertising so we have to contact the hosts in each case.

The problematic ads on mame.net was one of the deciding factors in dropping mame.net as the official page and moving to mamedev.com which as you can see is ad-free.

Anyway as I've been informed attempts are made here to control the ads, and I thank you for that, this is big business for the scumbags doing it, I once recieved an email offering a 3 figure monthly amount to host ads for their rom dvd site, thats how much it means to them and thats why its becoming a severe problem (given the price of dvds its pretty much a no expenditure all profit 'business').  These people also try their best to work around any ad bans we put in place, registering new urls as fast as we can block them.

I'll fire out the usual reminder that by supporting such people you're damaging the project and the reputation of it, it was never meant to be used to make people huge sums of money.

[KevSteele]

For those advocating the shotgun approach, please see http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37779.0.html.

I've talked to Mike at DreamArcades - he's been in touch with Aaron about this, and it seems that the deleted auctions today were due to some sort of "hiccup" with eBay.

Unfortunately, eBay also told DreamArcades they were going to pull their account because of continued violations (when there were none).

Aaron's trying to straighten it all out...

kevin

[Shape D.]

I once recieved an email offering a 3 figure monthly amount to host ads for their rom dvd site.

I'm willing to bet that ammount would be greatly lowered if offered anywhere else. An ad on mame.net (wich would seem like a great endorsement) would pull in a ton of revinue for whomever got their ad there. keep on  !

[divemaster127]

Ok, I have a question now auctions are already back on ebay with this in the title MAME(tm) so it that now acceptable or will these be canceled, I would think this violates the terms also
thanks

[Shape D.]

Ok, I have a question now auctions are already back on ebay with this in the title MAME(tm) so it that now acceptable or will these be canceled, I would think this violates the terms also
thanks

It takes ebay time to cancel these I'm sure they will be cancelled as well.

P.S. I have never sold anythin on ebay but I know they charge you for it. If you get an auction pulled do you lose that money?

[KevSteele]

P.S. I have never sold anythin on ebay but I know they charge you for it. If you get an auction pulled do you lose that money?

Looking at the VeRO notice, it mentions that the seller's listing fees will be refunded.

[saint]

Amusingly (?) enough, I found another one on the site here just now and added it to the banned list. That's 11 sites I have banned from Google Ads for being ROM sites. I wish Google would let you filter ads by keyword instead of by URL...

--- saint

I was talking about here, I've seen a few on my visits.

[Chris]

Unfortunately, eBay also told DreamArcades they were going to pull their account because of continued violations (when there were none).

This is why I'm worried about Aaron's approach.  To Aaron it's a convenience to shoot everyone down; to eBay, everyone he VeRO's is a pirate.

[froggerman]

Threads like this make baby jesus cry. 

Not only him!   

[Tiger-Heli]

6. You must not include any unlicensed game software (ROMs or CHDs) or artwork with your product. Furthermore, you must not provide information to those who purchase your product concerning where to obtain unlicensed game software.

7. You must not mislead the buyer with pictures or lists of games that do not come included with your product. Any games or pictures you use must refer to properly-licensed games that are included with the purchased product.

I don't see how this guidline has anything to do with MAME(tm).  Mainly the artwork seeing how they covered mame art work earlier.

 Is it really their responsibilty about the buyer being misleading w/ pictures and game lists.  Shouldn't that be an issue between the buyer and seller?

Speaking for Aaron, I think his wording was a little bit vague on the artwork issue, but I think what he is getting at is:

If you have a Donkey Kong image (which you drew, therefore unlicensed) on your arcade cabinet, you are in violation of Nintendo's trademark, and if you mention "Compatible with MAME(tm)" in the item description, MAMEdev does not want to risk MAME being associated with it, but I doubt they would pull the ad for this.

I have seen many cabs on E-bays which say "Plays 5,000 games" - then has 3 dozen MAME screenshots (probably not even on the same computer that is included).  I think this is what Aaron was meaning to go after.

[Shadowgate]

The best solution for the community in my opinion would be to come up with another word that describes a "Mame machine". Mame is really only one useable piece of software so its not really a good descriptor but if the community switches to a new word that essentially describes the same thing there is no issue of a copyright violation.

[Setabs]

The best solution for the community in my opinion would be to come up with another word that describes a "Mame machine". Mame is really only one useable piece of software so its not really a good descriptor but if the community switches to a new word that essentially describes the same thing there is no issue of a copyright violation.

Could it be something like....








Uh I dunno.........































Possibly...........




























Emulation machine
arcade cabinet
PC arcade cabinet


The words are already there. 

People just use "MAME machine"  so they have a better chance of higher bids.  But  thats an infringment on the TM.  That's why you could use words like "emulation machine" or "PC arcade machine."  It would be nice if they allowed "MAME compatible Arcade Cabinet" or something similar for titles. 

sorry for making this long I just did it for fun!

[Crazy Cooter]

Looks like I'm late to this one.  Of course (as always ) here's my opinion:

1) The MAME devs don't want to be associated with or be seen as people providing "thousands of games" for free.

2) Their claim to the trademark must be enforced or it becomes pointless and they will not have a legal right to it.

3) They don't want to spend hours each day policing ebay.

I don't see anything wrong with what they have done other than pulling the ebay trigger before notifying each person.  HOWEVER, is it up to them to comb through ebay and pick out the "good guys"?  There are many many people that use the word MAME in their auctions and it would be very time consuming to sort them all out.  Instead, it appears that they just dropped napalm and are working with the "good guys" to clean up anything that was hit in error. http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37734.msg336994.html#msg336994
That seems reasonable IMO.

Per "Rule" Comments:
1. You cannot use the trademark "MAME" in the title of your auction.
Are you selling MAME?  Is your item only for MAME?  No and no.  Why use it in the title then?  It's only an attempt to increase sales of the product by using the perceived connection to the MAME name.

2. You may use the phrases "compatible with MAME(tm)" or "works with MAME(tm)", but you may only mention it once in your ad.
At first thought the 1-time rule seems harsh, but really it's not.  Once you say it's compatible, what else needs to be said?

3. You must not use the trademark "MAME" in the name of your product. This only implies official endorsement and we do not endorse products.
4. You must not use the MAME logo under any circumstances; this again implies official endorsement.
I don't think anyone has issues with this.

5. You cannot include MAME or a derivative thereof with what you are selling unless you obtain permission. At this time, we are still discussing under what circumstances, if any, MAME will be permitted to be included with commercial products. If you have already requested permission, your request will be answered once a decision has been made.
This *should* be obvious anyhow.

6. You must not include any unlicensed game software (ROMs or CHDs) or artwork with your product. Furthermore, you must not provide information to those who purchase your product concerning where to obtain unlicensed game software.
CYA.  I don't think they can really do anything about the artwork portion, because if you did have permission they wouldn't know about it anyhow.  The rest is just to space MAME away from the "illegal" ROM's.

7. You must not mislead the buyer with pictures or lists of games that do not come included with your product. Any games or pictures you use must refer to properly-licensed games that are included with the purchased product.
Surely a leftover from Foley.  This reeks like the "unfair competition" crap he was yelling about.  It is an indication as to the true intent of the seller though.

Mostly the MAME devs are going through a lot of hassle to protect themselves and the work they are doing.  They could just say nobody can use the MAME name anywhere.  It's really not up to us to determine what will/will not damage what they want MAME to represent.  That's up to them and what the "rules" are for.

"David Foley triggered a series of events that left us where we are today."
I'm starting to wonder whether Foley was the cause or the effect... of course he's still craptacular IMO .

btw Haze, would you take a look at this thread:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,36710.msg324573.html#msg324573
Considering where everything is heading, I think a dev's comment would be greatly appreciated.

[Chris]

HOWEVER, is it up to them to comb through ebay and pick out the "good guys"?

[Crazy Cooter]

According to the terms of use for their trademark (and as far as I understand who has been affected), they were the right targets.  If it was a "hiccup", that is being addressed.

[Chris]

According to the terms of use for their trademark (and as far as I understand who has been affected), they were the right targets.

[Tiger-Heli]

According to the terms of use for their trademark (and as far as I understand who has been affected), they were the right targets.  If it was a "hiccup", that is being addressed.

Correct!  I don't think there is an issue as far as MAMEdev is concerned with Good Guys and Bad Guys (whether you have a legitimate product or a cabinet that plays 5,000 gameses), as far as trademark and E-bay are concerned.

MAMEdev said forums may use MAME without TM, web pages must include TM at the first reference to MAME, and otherwise, seek permission to use it.

This was very publicly announce at www.mame.net and www.mamedev.com and BYOAC and time was given for it to be addressed.

The only "good guy" exceptions would be sellers (if any) who previously contacted Nicola and were told that they would be allowed to use MAME in their E-bay ads or E-bay ad titles and then had their ads pulled.

And I am fairly sure MAMEdev will take care of these situations if any exist.

Again, this shouldn't be such a big deal to anyone.

[Chris]

The only "good guy" exceptions would be sellers (if any) who previously contacted Nicola and were told that they would be allowed to use MAME in their E-bay ads or E-bay ad titles and then had their ads pulled.

So let's say I'm a guy who was into MAME a year ago.  So I've lost touch, the parts sat in my garage, and it's time to get rid of them.  Wow, I have enough parts for 30-40 auctions!  I haven't been keeping up with MAME, so I'm not aware of Aaron's power trip.

I put my auctions up.  Aaron goes to town.  I've just been thrown off eBay for 30 VeRO violations.

How is this guy such a "bad guy"?

This is what we call collateral damage.  This is what happens when people think they are so important they can destroy everything in their path because they are so much righter than anyone else.

[Tiger-Heli]

Their Terms of Use are unreasonable and not backed up by law

I think that will only be determined when one of the sellers sues the mamedev team for loss of revenue, defamation of character, loss of market standing due to lowered reputation, etc.

- The far majority of eBay sellers don't frequent this forum and have no clue the MAMEDevs are claiming such wide-ranging rights to a word that they have APPLIED for.

They do now!!!  (Also the far majority of E-bay sellers are misusing the term as their items are not strictly limited to MAME or in some case even very largely associated with it.)

[Crazy Cooter]

Their Terms of Use are unreasonable and not backed up by law

I think that will only be determined when one of the sellers sues the mamedev team for loss of revenue, defamation of character, loss of market standing due to lowered reputation, etc.

Correct.  The same would go for "artwork violations".

Chris, Once the "TM" has been placed, all rights go to the person that put the TM next to it.  Until it is "disproved" by the USPTO, that person has every right to enforce their claim to it's use.  It doesn't have to be a "registered" trademark.

"Any time you claim rights in a mark, you may use the "TM" (trademark) or "SM" (service mark) designation to alert the public to your claim, regardless of whether you have filed an application with the USPTO. However, you may use the federal registration symbol "

[Chris]

MAMEdev said forums may use MAME without TM, web pages must include TM at the first reference to MAME, and otherwise, seek permission to use it.

What's ironic is when they, for example, break Galeco's or Namco's encryption and announce it on their Web pages, I don't see them putting a TM after the names of all the companies who's IP they're stepping on...

In fact, there is not a single TM on mame.net or mamedev.com, for MAME or Sega or Konami  or Data East (these are the company names that appear in mame.net at the moment).