How can I tell genuine Wico joysticks?

[PaulG]

So I just received 2 Wico 8-Way joysticks (Rubber grommet with microswitches) and I'm incredibly unimpressed.  Flimsy cheap plastic and at the bottom of the joystick, the white plastic thing that triggers contact with the microswitches, it sucks IMO.  The thing twists around sometimes making hitting diagnals impossible.  Even when this square thing is centered, however, diagnals seem to be anything but a sure shot (Just received them and haven't mounted them).  Is this how Wico, rubber grommet joysticks work?  A flimsy, cheap, plastic thing makes contact with the microswitches?  Bought these from these boards and PM'ed PaigeOliver the picture to verify these were genuine (Since he's a huge supporter of these sticks and gave his thumbs up in the sell thread... NOT that he was the one selling them).  Also, should there be Wico printed anywhere on the joysticks?  My initial impressions are these are **** with a capital C.

[SirPeale]

A picture is worth a thousand words.

All the Wico joysticks I've seen have said 'Wico' on them.  There may be some that don't, but the ones I've seen do. 

Paige is a better authority than I am.

The feel may be much better once the unit is mounted as well.

[dirt]

every one i have also says wico on the bottom of it.




dirt

[PaulG]

There's a picture of it.  The white, plastic thing at the end of the handle (Which triggers the microswitches when installed) is a cheap, hollow, squarish cone that spins around the handle.  When that square cone is perfectly centered between the four micros, it's performance is less than inspiring.  But if you twist the handle, it then turns the cone so it's physically impossible to hit corners (Or a lot of normal directions).  Doing a 360 movement (ala robotron), and the number of clicks that aren't triggered is depressing (Even when perfectly centered.)

It's possible I've incorrectly installed it, but there's not much to it.     The base is already assembled and it simple entails sliding the handle through and reattaching the white plastic thing.

[Grasshopper]

I haven't tried one of those joysticks but the Happ Competitions work on the same principle (i.e. the square actuator is supposed to rotate freely) and they hit the diagonals just fine. In fact some people don't like Competitions because they favour the diagonals.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions until you've tried playing some games with it.

Also, according to Paige they work better if you fit a heavier spring.

[PaulG]

SECOND EDIT:

Okay.  So I started playing around with the second joystick and aside from the fact these are supposed to be NOS and it has 1 cherry switch and 3 red and white micros, the WHITE PLASTIC CONE ON THIS JOYSTICK IS SIGNIFICANTLY BIGGER.  That would explain why the 1st one is fundamentally garbage.  I'm still disappointed some by the performance and am wondering this:  In a game like Robotron, is it unrealistic to expect that if a rotate the joystick in 360 degree circles that I'd fire shots in smooth 360 degree blasts.  When rotating fluidly, I'm routinely skip directions.

Orginial POST:

These are rubber grommets and I always assumed the spring replacement was referring to the spring-based Wicos.

Anyways, even though it was a pain because my T-Stick Plus's have different mounting holes (Was gonna redo the entire CP), I mounted the joystick in a different location and either there is something wrong with assembly (Paige, help), or these are Chinese knockoffs that even the Chinese would shun.

Playing Robotron is like playing with 4 ways.  Unless I really slam down in a diagnol, there's zero action happening there.  And even just regular directions, the joystick slides really nice, but to get it to contact with the microswitches, there's a hiccup or jerk (Like cheap Chinese parts are shifting inside) before sliding all the way to contact with the microswitches.

P.S.  One HUGE other thing, I noticed on the Happ website and with my T-Stik Pluses, there are large prongs(?) that are connected to the micro switch, which then make contact with the joystick actuator (?) and they trigger the cherry switch.  With these, it's just a regular pushbutton micro switch where the plastic cone has to trigger the little button itself (Without the long prongs seen on almost everything else).  Don't all joysticks have special micro switches they use?  It seems things would work infinetly better with them.  And, no, I don't believe swapping my T-Stick micros would work because the plastic cone would be too big with these.

Edit:  Grasshopper:  Just looked at the competitions.  They are similiar.  Are Competitions the ones people hate?  If so, I understand why (Although nothing could be as bad as what I'm getting right now.)

[Zakk]

A microswitch version is not the real way to judge a WICO.  If you wanted a microswitch stick, you should have got yourself a Happ-Super (the best microswitch stick out there in my very humble opinion).  If you want to see how robotron really is supposed to feel, you're going to need to find some true Wico 8-way leafswitch sticks. 

As an aside, it looks like you might have gotton some mix and match parts on those sticks.  The square actuator that came with one probably IS from a Happ stick! 

[markrvp]

For Robotron, you really need Wico LEAFSWITCH joysticks.  I am speaking from experience.  My 4 player panel uses Happ Competition sticks which are very similar to the Wicos you got (except they use a spring instead of a grommet).  Playing Robotron sucks.

I found and purchased some Wico 8-WAY LEAFSWITCH joysticks and Robotron now plays incredible.

Sorry you got the wrong sticks. 

[Timoe]

^ where can I *buy* an Averagecade?

[markrvp]

^ where can I *buy* an Averagecade?

You can't BUY one, but they are pretty easy to make.  A lot of people have by accident.

[PaulG]

Now that it's mentioned, the part probably is from the Happ Competitions.

Bought these because I've been looking for months on Ebay for NOS 8-way Leafs (Nothing) and a lot of members think the "Micro-Leafs" are just as good (The thinking being it's the rubber grommets that make the Wicos more than the Leaf switches).  Oh well, I've been on a Puzzle Bobble kick lately and I was actually playing much better than with my T-Stick Pluses.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Good condition USED Wico leafs actually feel better to me than NOS ones.

Once the grommet gets loosened up a bit, but before it starts cracking/ripping, they are the best feeling sticks ever made--at least to me.

I've got a dedicated Radical Radial, that I was expecting to replace the stick on when I bought it, due to its age.
I got it adjusted, and played with it, and it actually feels better than any of the NOS sticks I have.

Likewise, the USED leaf buttons usually feel better to me than NOS ones, once they are adjusted properly.

[XtraSmiley]

Are these the sticks you bought for $20 each on this forums buy/sell page?  I was going to get the red ones, but I guess I'll pass now....


As for the leaf ones, Retroblast gave them a thumbs down, you should read it before you order.

[quarterstringer]

Likewise, the USED leaf buttons usually feel better to me than NOS ones, once they are adjusted properly.

Can you explain how you adjust your leaf buttons and leaf switches for Wico 8-way joysticks?

[Zakk]

Kevin gave a thumbs down review on leafswitch joysticks??

[NoOne=NBA=]

As for the leaf ones, Retroblast gave them a thumbs down, you should read it before you order.

I'm with Zakk on this one.
I don't think Kev Steele really knew what he was SUPPOSED to be reviewing, and his review is based only on the specific stick that he had.

Based on the pictures, he didn't have the stick optimally tuned.
Also, there was something wrong with the one that he had because you should not be able to feel ANY corners on a true Wico leaf because there ARE none.

I'm thinking he may have had a mismatched stick, and gotten a square restricted top, mixed with a leafswitch bottom.
The true Wico leaf has round restrictors on both ends, and a round actuator.
Given that, there is no way you could feel the corners on it.

It should feel exactly like the P-360 that he gave rave reviews to.

[paigeoliver]

It seems like the ones you got have parts mixed up from between different joysticks. That joystick (with the correct parts), plays Robotron perfectly and has no problem with corners or anything else. The actuator can turn slightly, but that has no effect on games (all square actuators can turn), as it is forced back into the correct position by impacting the microswitches.

[spiffyshoes]

If it is just your actuator is mixed up you can get a replacement one from PonyBoy.

[RayB]

Bottom line... PaulG: Does it saw Wico on the bottom or not?

[PaulG]

Thanks for the link, Spiffy.  If I can't get a replacement for free, I'll definetly pick that one up.

RayB:  No Wico placement anywhere on the joystick.  Even looked under the microswitches.  The microswitches were made in Illinois (Red & White), so I would assume a Chinese knockoff joystick would use Chinese microswitches too.  Couple that with the fact the seller says he got the joysticks personally from Wico and Paige seeming to think they're the real deal, I'll go in that direction.  Now if anyone can tell me they personally own rubber grommet Wico micros and have evidence these are not, my head is not buried in the sand on the issue.

[RayB]

I THINK I have one... I'd have to dig it up if you want me to look up any parts...

[KevSteele]

Heh...I see my review came up.

I was really, really, surprised at my findings -- I was expecting a Wico leaf-switch joystick to be a lot smoother in operation that the one I reviewed actually was.

I had a Wico leaf-switch joystick for my Atari computer years back, and remember how smooth and responsive it was -- the one I reviewed for the roundup, however, was not the same.

I did adjust the leaf switches, but the joystick just never felt "right." Now the Wico I reviewed was used (had to be, I don't think they sell new leaf-switch joysticks anymore), so that may have been a factor.

The rotation was smooth, but it was difficult to hit diagonals The stiff spring on the Wico also helped give it an unresponsive feeling.

Looking back, I think one of the major factors in the bad response was the plastic "actuator fingers" on each of the switches (look at the photo and video). These were fairly thick plastic leaves that really interfered with the smooth movement. I now suspect that perhaps the switches may have been installed backwards, but that was the way they were installed when I got the joystick and I don't know if they can be installed the other way.

Kevin

[paigeoliver]

Often times you'll end up with old wico's that have parts mismatched between various versions (and even other sticks).

If you had both a stiff spring and leaf switches then it probably had mismatched parts.

[KevSteele]

The stiff spring and the plastic "leaves" really ruined the feel, that much is certain.

I'll have to see if I can't get another Wico to do a "second look", as I definitely felt that it should have been a better contender.

Kevin

[NoOne=NBA=]

I had a Wico leaf-switch joystick for my Atari computer years back, and remember how smooth and responsive it was -- the one I reviewed for the roundup, however, was not the same.

You had a REAL leafswitch stick for your Atari, and God knows what when you did your review.
That is why I was saying that I didn't think you were reviewing a TRUE Wico stick.

I did adjust the leaf switches, but the joystick just never felt "right."

That is part of the appeal of them.
You can adjust them so that they feel right to you--much more so than any other joystick out there.
If you put the leafs way out from the actuator, it will favor the cardinal directions.
If you put BOTH leaves very close to the actuator, it becomes almost impossible to NOT hit a diagonal.

Now the Wico I reviewed was used (had to be, I don't think they sell new leaf-switch joysticks anymore), so that may have been a factor.

That is usually only an issue with a 4-way.
The 8-ways wear relatively smoothly around the restrictor.
What is more common in used ones is to have a tear in the grommet, so that the joystick favors one direction.

The rotation was smooth, but it was difficult to hit diagonals

From the looks of the pics, you had the leafswitches too far from the actuator.
Try about 1/2 of what it looks like you had.

If you put the inner leaf resting just on the plastic leaf, and adjust the other one until it almost touches, you can adjust it so that the stick can barely move WITHOUT hitting a diagonal.

The stiff spring on the Wico also helped give it an unresponsive feeling.

1) It shouldn't have HAD a spring.
The ones everyone raves about are the rubber grommet ones.
2) The leafswitches being so far away from the actuator had alot more to do with it than the return spring.
With them that far away, the deadspot in the center of the stick is huge.
I was looking at your chart, and the distance before actuation should be alot smaller.
Again, you CAN set it to almost zero, but your diagonals will be too heavily favored.
It should actuate about the same (or a little sooner) than a Comp, and have about the same overall stick travel as a Comp.

I think one of the major factors in the bad response was the plastic "actuator fingers" on each of the switches (look at the photo and video). These were fairly thick plastic leaves that really interfered with the smooth movement. I now suspect that perhaps the switches may have been installed backwards, but that was the way they were installed when I got the joystick and I don't know if they can be installed the other way.

The plastic leaves have very little impact on feel.
They are there to protect the switches, more than anything.
The switches on yours looked to be installed properly, but improperly adjusted.

All-in-all the stick will still have a somewhat mushy feeling, similar to the P360, but will be very responsive and tunable.
You can set the switches to contact wherever you feel they should, but the stick will continue to overtravel until it hits the restrictor.
This is by design.

[KevSteele]

I certainly expected the Wico to be #2 in the roundup (right after the P360).

I have another leaf-switch joystick here (Not a WICO) and while it is slightly better than the Wico I reviewed, it isn't anywhere near what I remembered a leaf switch joystick being capable of (even with tweaking).

I didn't delve too deeply into the situation at the time because there doesn't seem to be any new leaf-switch joysticks on the market, but it definitely looks like I need to track down another Wico for a second look. I sure wish I had that old Atari Wico around...

Kevin

[NoOne=NBA=]

The guts on the Atari Wicos are identical to the rubber grommet/leaf switch arcade Wicos.

[RayB]

The guts on the Atari Wicos are identical to the rubber grommet/leaf switch arcade Wicos.

Sort of. Same grommet, same quality shaft, but they used very cheap leaf switches. (should feel the same though).

I have never seen a Wico leafswitch joy with a SPRING (though I know they exist). Kev, you should retract the Wico from your review, since it sounds like you reviews a POS. 

[KevSteele]

The guts on the Atari Wicos are identical to the rubber grommet/leaf switch arcade Wicos.

Sort of. Same grommet, same quality shaft, but they used very cheap leaf switches. (should feel the same though).

I have never seen a Wico leafswitch joy with a SPRING (though I know they exist). Kev, you should retract the Wico from your review, since it sounds like you reviews a POS.

[NoOne=NBA=]

I knew something was up when you loved the P360, but hated the Wico.
Also, you were complaining about feeling the corners on it, which shouldn't happen at all.

If you had loved the corners on a Competition, I could see not liking the Wico.
If you loved the short throw on the T-stik, I could see not liking the Wico.
If you loved the really light spring on a Super, I could see not liking the Wico.

The Wicos do have a pretty long throw on them, but the switches can be adjusted so that you get contact right off of center on them.
They are not the perfect stick for everything, but they are a good all-around stick, and the most comparable (along with the Happ/Midway 49-ways) to the P360.

The P360 actually started as an add-on to the standard grommet 8-way Wico.
The only difference between the original Wicos, and the P360 Wicos, was the fact that the P360 had optical switches, rather than leafs.
The feel, from the top, on both of them, is almost identical.

Happ bought the P360 patents, and stopped producing the kits for the Wicos--which resulted in the current (spring-based) design for them.

[KevSteele]

BTW, this is why I try to stay away from reviewing used products: it's just too risky knowing if the unit has had a gentle or hard life.

I reviewed a used Wico since it was the only way I could get one, and it looks like that was a big mistake. Shame there aren't any new ones available (or are there? anyone know of any NOS source or new Wico-style leaf joysticks?)

Kevin

[NoOne=NBA=]

anyone know of any NOS source or new Wico-style leaf joysticks?)

Just come-what-may on ebay for the NOS ones.
The NEW ones are all the knockoffs that are really 4-ways, with a larger actuator for 8-way operation.

[spiffyshoes]

Whats up Kev. I might be talked into letting you *Cough* Borrow my NOS Wico 8-way leaf joystick for a review.  I also have a NOS P360 optical adapter for it you could *Cough* Borrow to review along with it.

[KevSteele]

Whats up Kev. I might be talked into letting you *Cough* Borrow my NOS Wico 8-way leaf joystick for a review.

[Zakk]

Hey Kev, do you mean the tiny little spring that goes on the shaft of the Wico?  If so, that's supposed to be there, to give a bit of play if you pull up on the stick.  If it was a BIG spring that actually acted as the resistance for the motion, then that is the wrong wrong stick.   

I think I could even find an atari wico to send for review    Don't see the point, but they are pretty much the only sticks that still function flawlessly when I fire up the old 2600 and 800