TOKN KB16 ENCODERS

[paigeoliver]

Hee hee, Ultracade just had all the auctions for those things removed because they had the word "Mame" in the title.

How is he still getting away with that?

I don't know, I emailed ebay's VeRO department about it, but I am certain nothing but form letters will come of it.

My best suggestion is that the KB16 maker join the VeRO program and start ending 2 Ultracade auctions for every one of his that Ultracade ends.

Yes, there are still 5 available, but there were more before, and the one I was bidding got VeRO'd.

[Tiger-Heli]

Thanks for the clarification.  Is it safe to assume that the KB32 uses a 4-ground multiplex?

So we're moving on now and starting a KeyWiz Max vs TOKN KB32 Texas death match?
Can the crowd handle it?

Mattp,

That was a legitimate question on my part.

IMHO, due to lack of screw terminals the KB32 still squares off against the KeyWiz Eco, but at least it's much closer to being in the same ballpark.

[KevSteele]

Hee hee, Ultracade just had all the auctions for those things removed because they had the word "Mame" in the title.

How is he still getting away with that?

I don't know, I emailed ebay's VeRO department about it, but I am certain nothing but form letters will come of it.

My best suggestion is that the KB16 maker join the VeRO program and start ending 2 Ultracade auctions for every one of his that Ultracade ends.

Yes, there are still 5 available, but there were more before, and the one I was bidding got VeRO'd.

I believe he may still be doing these sort of things by claiming to do it "on the behalf" of MAMEdevs. I'd still like to know what sort of arrangements they made with him with regards to getting the MAME trademark back...

Kevin

[paigeoliver]

I severely doubt the mamedevs want keyboard encoder auctions shut down.

[KevSteele]

I severely doubt the mamedevs want keyboard encoder auctions shut down.

The question is whether they've given him any authority to act on their behalf regarding trademark violations. He may have been granted that power with regards to cabs, and is "extending his reach" to include encoders.

I'd like to know if there was any "pact with the devil" here, and if that's why he apparently still feels he has the power to shut down auctions...

Do you have an auction number for the one that was pulled? I'd like to take a look.

Kevin

[monkeybomb]

I'd still like to know what sort of arrangements they made with him with regards to getting the MAME trademark back...

Kevin

I would too.  I suspect that the deal involves ultracade being aloud to use MAME.  The way the license is worded I think ultracade could use MAME.  No one knows if he has been all along anyway.


As for the KB32 I missed the part where the cost was given.  I can't imagine paying 30 dollars for an encoder without screw termminals.  Is it more than 30?

I also think that the keywiz no solder eco is a way better choice, but I can see a place for the KB16.  I thought they were cheaper when I saw the e-bay prices and bid $15 three or four times, but the market showed they were worth 17.  I thought it would be fun to MAME my desk at home with one joystick and three buttons.  When I thought it was cheaper it seemed like the choice.

[paigeoliver]

6183328291 -Tokn KB16 - MAME arcade keyboard encoder w/ PS2 cable

Auction is gone though.

[Tiger-Heli]

As for the KB32 I missed the part where the cost was given.  I can't imagine paying 30 dollars for an encoder without screw termminals.  Is it more than 30?

Only available as an E-bay auction, not on the TOKN.net site.  The TOKN KB32 is currently (17May05) readily available on E-bay for around $10.50 (but most auctions seem to close around $30-$35 or more), but I am not sure how long this price will be available.

I also think that the keywiz no solder eco is a way better choice, but I can see a place for the KB16.  I thought they were cheaper when I saw the e-bay prices and bid $15 three or four times, but the market showed they were worth 17.  I thought it would be fun to MAME my desk at home with one joystick and three buttons.  When I thought it was cheaper it seemed like the choice.

Agreed - if you look at half the number of inputs of the KeyWiz for half the price - it changes the picture immensely, but that requires getting lucky on just the right E-bay auction and MattP has said that the E-bay offerings were a limited introductory deal, so I have been limiting discussion to the officially posted prices.

[ddockery]

He can email eBay and claim to do things on the behalf of the MAME team w/o their consent you know.  Hell, ANY of us can do that.  I've done it myself when I see the CDRs full of MAME rom sets.

[RandyT]

The TOKN KB16 is not implemented in what would be called a traditional keyboard matrix.
There is no row and column scan or search and there are also no ghosting issues. No diodes are needed nor used.
Rather it is a two ground multiplex with high speed interleaved byte latching on a single microcontroller port.

Sounds impressive.  But you just described a traditional keyboard matrix.

I don't have one of your products, but based on the descriptions you and others have given, it sounds like the 8 inputs are doubled (read: connected to a total of 16 pins on your header) and then you have 2 "ground" lines (which aren't always ground.)

If you are alternating high and low on those two "ground" lines (columns) and checking for a specific result at one of the other eight (rows), then you are indeed using a traditional keyboard-style matrix.  And if this is so, and you are not employing firmware methods that block certain keypresses, or using diodes to prevent backfeeed, then it would seem pretty likely that there would be potential ghosting problems.

There are only so many ways to skin that cat, are you saying you've come up with a new one?

RandyT

[KevSteele]

He can email eBay and claim to do things on the behalf of the MAME team w/o their consent you know.

[KevSteele]

I just got some troubling news - it's not Foley pulling the auctions, but MAMEdev themselves!

(See "MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions" in the Main Forum for more details - it doesn't belong in this thread: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37734.0.html )

Apparently they are the ones cancelling auctions, and have sent out letters to several vendors with the new "rules"

David Foley's getting his wish, and he's got MAMEdev working as his enforcers...

Kevin

Edit: moved details to new thread

[ddockery]

They're just trying to cover their own asses, there's nothing wrong with that. There's also a thread about this on the MAME board.  Why SHOULD you list an auction as "Keyboard encoder for MAME"?  Keyboard encoders have hundreds of uses - It seems like "KB16 keyboard encoder - 16 inputs" should work just as well. Anyone looking for encoder to use with MAME know what they are looking for.  Sticking MAME in the title wouldn't really help anyway.  I can understand being upset at the auctions being pulled, but now that we know what they want, I don't see any problems with it.

[KevSteele]

Anyone looking for encoder to use with MAME know what they are looking for.

[monkeybomb]

I have had the search "MAME" in my ebay favorite searches for sometime.  It's is the fastest way to find new parts.

[Tiger-Heli]

Anyone looking for encoder to use with MAME know what they are looking for.  Sticking MAME in the title wouldn't really help anyway.

I'd disagree with this - if someone is building a MAME cab and starts searching for MAME-compatible stuff, they're going to search on "MAME". I know I get an awful lot of search traffic on my site that has "MAME" in the search string...

Kevin

It had nothing to do with Ultracade. The auctions were taken down by the MAME team. There is widespread abuse of the name, and eBay is the #1 location for it. People are using "MAME" to sell all kinds of stuff, legal and illegal, and it's just going to have to stop, period. You can say "compatible with MAME(tm)" or "works with MAME(tm)" once in your ad -- that's fair use. But you can't put MAME in the title, you can't name your product after MAME, and you can't use MAME to sell anything illegal. Respond to the address listed in the takedown notice and ask for a full list of rules surrounding the use of the name MAME in auctions.

I like this example the best: should you be able to list an auction with "L@@K! Paper cups! Coca-Cola! Pepsi!"? No -- you're using the trademarked names to sell your non-endorsed, tangentially-related item. Same goes for MAME.

Aaron

From Aaron Giles on www.mame.net

That said, they've said you can still say "compatible with MAME(tm)" in the description, so just seach for "encoder MAME" and check the "Search Title and Description" box on FleaBay.

[KevSteele]

Anyone looking for encoder to use with MAME know what they are looking for.

[Tiger-Heli]

Of course, that'll only work if you know to do it. If you're just searching on eBay, you don't generally have to know that some keywords are now "forbidden" and can only be used once in an auction description... 
Kevin

Someone planning to build a MAME cab should at least RTFM or keep up with this board or the www.mame.net board enough to know what the new license requirements are.

[markrvp]

Of course, that'll only work if you know to do it. If you're just searching on eBay, you don't generally have to know that some keywords are now "forbidden" and can only be used once in an auction description...

[Tiger-Heli]

Of course, that'll only work if you know to do it. If you're just searching on eBay, you don't generally have to know that some keywords are now "forbidden" and can only be used once in an auction description... 
Kevin

Someone planning to build a MAME cab should at least RTFM or keep up with this board or the www.mame.net board enough to know what the new license requirements are.

I agree that they should, but know that they don't.  I was well into planning my cabinet before I got onto the message boards here.  I was mainly reading the project web pages from the projects listed under Examples.  I think this board is a little intimidating at first.  Also, the mame.net website (and mameworld.net) is an unnavigable labyrinth to me.  I know there is a ton of stuff on there that I can find links to through Google searches, but have no idea how to access from the main page.  I depend on this site solely for my MAME information.

Having said that, if someone can tell me how to better navigate the main MAME sites, I will happily do so.

True, but if you download MAME, you download the license.  The newer versions say "Be sure to check out the new changed license" and provide a link before you download MAME!!!

[mattp]

The previous quote was simple and fair reply to Tiger-Heli's statement.
He emphasized ECOs strong points by pointing out what the TOKN KB16 did not have.
More inputs and a program to hot swap keysets, all great features, no argument there.
The reply basically did the same, ie pointed out things that ECO lacked that would be a weighing
point when evaluating your cost and feature set.
No one is trying to piss you off here, nor are any attacks being made.

It was also highly inaccurate in implying that you have to solder with the KeyWiz ECO when in fact the IDE header version is less expensive than the KB16 and uses the same input methods.

I'm simply balancing some of these quotes that have been posted so that everyone has a clear view of what's going on.

What you fail to realize is that I think everyone DOES have a clear view of what's going on.

The hot plug statement refers to the fact that ECOs need run a program every time you replug the encoder which is a very valid point if you are using a PS2 keyboard. This is where the functionality of NVM comes to play. If you can not see the value in that, then I can not help you.

Not true.

[NoOne=NBA=]

You would have to launch MAME with your
keyboard plugged in, unplug your keyboard, then plug in your encoder to
game.

Is this necessary?
I'm running MacOS and WinXP on all my current projects, but would like to know for future projects, if necessary.

If the computer sees the encoder AS a keyboard, it should launch automatically, and go right to gaming, right?
I have only had my keyboard hooked to my cab ONCE in the past 6 months, and that was to do some cleanup/renaming on my hard drive.

How would you even change a key setting in this scenario?

You can navigate all the menus with a joystick, hit the "enter" button, and then hit whatever button you have that you want bound.
I haven't changed anything at the encoder end since I installed the encoder YEARS ago.
I can't even GET to my encoder without disassembling something on my cab.

Unless you have a rare app, that won't let you change the keybinds, you can change them all in the software to match your layout.

[RandyT]

Many MAME projects resurrect old PCs and make them useful again
by running DOS or UNIX for MAME which has a lot less overhead than Windows. This poses a challenge for the ECO as DOS does not support USB.

If you insist on continuing to talk out of your keister with regards to my products, do some research or ask some questions (like I did about your supposed non-matrixed encoder and have yet to get an answer from you).

The KeyWiz Eco is PS/2 and the default codeset (i.e. ALWAYS available, even after programming) is 100% MAME compatible.  No programming necessary for DOS , Linux, whathaveyou.  There is also a DOS compatible uploads utility that can be placed in your autoexec.bat for automated code uploads under that OS.

TOKN KB16's on the fly programming via the keyboard passthrough
works independent of the OS. You can be in Windows, Unix, or DOS
and still use your game console and keyboard at the same time and
reprogram buttons with a simple keypress.

Admittedly, my take on things is a little different than some, but I had a gamepad once that you had to program that way.  It was frustrating as heck because after playing a couple of games and trying to remember what I programmed to do what in each of the games I played, I got frustrated and chucked it in the corner (in fact I think it's still there). 

In any case, you won't find a commercial gaming product that uses this approach anymore, and my theory is that this is the reason.

But I could be wrong...

RandyT

[KevSteele]

In any case, you won't find a commercial gaming product that uses this approach anymore, and my theory is that this is the reason.

But I could be wrong...

RandyT

You mean like the "on-the-fly" key programming in the X-Arcade, or the "on-the-fly" key programming in the I-PAC? Both of these products have the ability to reprogram keys the same way that the KB16 does.

Kevin

[RandyT]

In any case, you won't find a commercial gaming product that uses this approach anymore, and my theory is that this is the reason.

But I could be wrong...

You mean like the "on-the-fly" key programming in the X-Arcade, or the "on-the-fly" key programming in the I-PAC? Both of these products have the ability to reprogram keys the same way that the KB16 does.

Sorry, I was referring primarily to mainstream commercial products, like the one I mentioned.  I have a hard time putting the X-Arcade or the I-PAC or the KeyWiz in the same category.

PC game controllers use software and profiles that can be saved and loaded as desired.  The IPAC *can* be programmed from the keyboard, but it's not necessary to and certainly not preferred by most who use it.

If I'm not mistaken, the X-arcade also allows multiple profiles to be stored in the unit and allows the active one to be selected with a switch.  Similar programming method, but the functionality of the unit is quite different due to this extra profile storage capability.

RandyT

[KevSteele]

Agreed, Randy, both the X-Arcade's switchable "banks" of programmed keys and the IPAC's ability to manually program or load profiles makes them more versatile than just having to manually reassign keys each time.

If it's a one-time thing it's fine, but if you need to swap between key assignments it would get old fast.

I still like the nonvolatile memory, though - program it once, and use it anywhere (very handy if you're building a portable control panel, ala X-Arcade or HotRod) You can obviously work around not having NV memory if you're building a dedicated cab, of course!

Bottom line, certain features appeal to certain consumers. While having lots of inputs may be the most important feature to one person, another may want NV memory or a keyboard passthrough.

It's nice that we have a variety of encoders to choose from. (Heck, there's even an encoder with a PC watchdog circuit that reboots the computer if it crashes!)

Kevin

[RandyT]

It's nice that we have a variety of encoders to choose from.

This is hard to argue with.  However...

based on what appears to be an attempt to obfuscate the fact that the TOKN encoder uses a matrix, I am starting to have some deeper concerns about certain functional aspects of the unit.

If my suspicions are correct, I wouldn't recommend them to anyone, but I'm still waiting for mattp to reply to my technical questions.

As a related matter, could you outline the tests you performed on the unit to give it your "performed flawlessly" rating? 

Thanks,
RandyT

[KevSteele]

As a related matter, could you outline the tests you performed on the unit to give it your "performed flawlessly" rating?

[RandyT]

I checked the KeyThis record to see if there were any ghost or duplicate keystrokes, and found none.

How about "blocking"?  I'm no stranger to this stuff, and so far it's not adding up.  mattp's silence on the matter seems a little suspicious as well.

If you have a multi-meter and feel like taking a more "technical" approach, let me know.

RandyT

[KevSteele]

I checked the KeyThis record to see if there were any ghost or duplicate keystrokes, and found none.

How about "blocking"?

[RandyT]

I've tried to be polite, but our conversations always head downhill fast, and I'm not going to go there again. I won't be replying to any more of your posts - you don't like me, I don't like you. No good can come of our public "conversations."

Wow..you took a serious offer to assist you in delving deeper into the workings of something that might have a major flaw that you could have overlooked  in your review (much like you overlooked the fact that the encoder is matrixed in the first place) and turned it into a personal attack.  And BTW, I do want to make sure that members of the BYOAC community aren't taken in by technical sounding mumbo-jumbo like the way the matrix was described earlier.  I am a member of this community, not just a vendor that blows through when they have marketing BS to spew, and as such I have personal obligations to share my knowledge when appropriate, even when it doesn't jive with your agenda.
 
Anyone else have a multi-meter and one of these and want to do some technical testing?

RandyT

[Hoopz]

I did a quick search but could not find a definition for blocking.

Is it when the encoder sends a keystroke from a button to the pc and blocks/stops another valid keystroke from a different button being sent?

Sorry to hijack what's left of the thread....

[RandyT]

I did a quick search but could not find a definition for blocking.

Is it when the encoder sends a keystroke from a button to the pc and blocks/stops another valid keystroke from a different button being sent?

Sorry to hijack what's left of the thread....

Blocking is a firmware methodology to prevent "ghosting" on matrixed keyboard encoder. 

Ghosting occurs when 2 keypresses occur on the same row and same column of the matrix simultaneously.  Without diodes, the signal will back-feed to a 4th position and the encoder senses a switch closure where none has been closed.  I should draw a picture as it's easier to demonstrate that way, but the gist is the same.

Blocking will keep the condition from occuring by disabling the sensing of the third and offending closure when it calculates that a ghosting condition will occur.  The net effect is that when certain combinations of keys are pressed, certain other keys are locked out to prevent ghosting.  This is how virtually all modern keyboards handle the situation.

Keep in mind that I don't know if this is happening here, and I'd like mattp to clarify this situation for everyone.  As I said before, there are only so many ways to skin this cat, and one method or the other has to be employed. 

It's also pretty easy to test for once the matrix is mapped out, and that's what the multi-meter is for.

RandyT

[Hoopz]

Ghosting occurs when 2 keypresses occur on the same row and same column of the matrix simultaneously.  Without diodes, the signal will back-feed to a 4th position and the encoder senses a switch closure where none has been closed.  I should draw a picture as it's easier to demonstrate that way, but the jist is the same.

Blocking will keep the condition from occuring by disabling the sensing of the third and offending closure when it calculates that a ghosting condition will occur.  The net effect is that when certain combinations of keys are pressed, certain other keys are locked out to prevent ghosting.  This is how virtually all modern keyboards handle the situation.

Keep in mind that I don't know if this is happening here, and I'd like mattp to clarify this situation for everyone.  As I said before, there are only so many ways to skin this cat, and one method or the other has to be employed. 

It's also pretty easy to test for once the matrixed is mapped out, and that's what the multi-meter is for.

RandyT

No more guessing for me.  lol.  Thanks Randy.  I understand now.

[mattp]

I checked the KeyThis record to see if there were any ghost or duplicate keystrokes, and found none.

How about "blocking"?

[RandyT]

To answer Randy-Helis question, yes the design approach can be referred as a 2x8 matrix.

That's not what you said before.  Care to reveal why?

Your own comments regarding the validity of a matrix implementation that ten billion keyboards across the planet employ followed by open speculation are without merit.

I don't know how to interpret this.  Simple question:  Are you or are you not employing "blocking" or a form of "blocking" as a means of preventing the phantom keystroke condition?

Passthrough was and is a challenge. TOKN stepped up to that challenge. You side stepped that challenge and threw in a toggle switch as a band-aid.

Nice try.  I looked at a feature that used up 2 precious inputs on a microcontroller and made a conscious decision not to devote them to it.  With a little planning, the KeyWiz can support a workable 4 player control panel.  Had I given up 2 of the inputs for a feature that I considered to have less merit, this would not have been possible.  The switch also keeps your drunken buddies from messing up your game by bashing on the keyboard when you are trying to play

Fun Fact:  We sell more KeyWiz Ecos than any of of our other products and we sell plenty. The Eco version has absolutely no pass-through provisions whatsoever. 

There goes your theory.

RandyT

[mattp]

To answer Randy-Helis question, yes the design approach can be referred as a 2x8 matrix.

That's not what you said before.

[Tiger-Heli]

Saint,
This group of threads was launched by a registered user of
your forum with the primary intent of denigrating a competitor's
product. This type of sleaze marketing is common and unfortunately
a gross misuse of public domain.

See this link to an internet marketing newletter that summarizes these
practices. http://www.apexpacific.com/newsletters/nl2004apr.html

I'll close by stating that I'm leaving
it up to the mediator of this forum and those involved
to examine the user profile registation dates and thread contents
for signs of this type of abuse.

Thank you and best regards,
Mattp
Tokn Media

Da#n, have to retype several thread replies.

Mattp - sorry if you consider factual information to be denigrating your product and if BYOAC members don't share your love for it.

[Tiger-Heli]

Lots of this got lost and probably not worth responding to, but - - -

You can do this if you already own a keyboard that supports USB and PS2.
I don't think you can do this with a PS2 only keyboard.

It's actually a PC-AT keyboard with an adapter to go to mini-DIN and then an adapter to go to USB.

Details here - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,35840.0.html

And as stated, I could have used a new USB keyboard for $10.

TOKN KB16's on the fly programming via the keyboard passthrough
works independent of the OS. You can be in Windows, Unix, or DOS
and still use your game console and keyboard at the same time and
reprogram buttons with a simple keypress.

As long as you don't mind re-programming every input whenever you switch applications and switch back

[Tiger-Heli]

I still like the nonvolatile memory, though - program it once, and use it anywhere (very handy if you're building a portable control panel, ala X-Arcade or HotRod) You can obviously work around not having NV memory if you're building a dedicated cab, of course!

I like it, but it's over-rated.  The KeyWiz default set is MAME-compatible, and I can use my KeyWiz controlled CP in MAME on any computer with no re-configuration.  Now if I wanted to play the same PC game on multiple computers without re-configuration, different story, but this will be a very small market segment.

It's nice that we have a variety of encoders to choose from. (Heck, there's even an encoder with a PC watchdog circuit that reboots the computer if it crashes!)

Which one? - Serious Question