TOKN KB16 ENCODERS

[tonyarcade]

Can anyone speak to these??

They are on Ebay for virtually nothing and promise easy installation.

Are they easy to use, dependable? A good cheap option???

Thanks

Tony

[monkeybomb]

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37064.0.html

[tonyarcade]

Thanks

I was leaning toward the KeyWiz Max, but they were selling mega cheap on Ebay so I figured worth a question.

Tony

[mattp]

Tony,
Check out the eBay feedback for TOKN KB16 and KB32.
Its pretty clear from the unfiltered feedback that people are very happy with the product.
You get to see the unfiltered feedback, out in the clear for all to see
which is something that the other offerings seem to be hesitant to do.
Be aware of slanted emails and postings from competitors, especially ones that contain Tiger in their name.
The KB16 is targeted for a single joystick alternating player setup.
1 joy, 8 gameplay buttons, and 4 control (esc, coin, 1p start, 2p start).
If you're looking for dual joystick with more inputs, check out KB32.
The area where TOKN excels is its speed and active passthrough for daisychaining.
You can connect a keyboard or even connect them together for multiplay. Another key feature is local key storage
in on board EEPROM. Just plug and play, its already loaded with the MAME default keycodes.
If you are considering other encoders and they don't say EEPROM, well guest what, they don't have it! Keep an eye out for the www.retroblast.com TOKN KB16 review that is coming up soon.
eBay free bid starting at a quarter, posted daily, can't beat it!
Cheers and best of luck in your MAME ventures.
Matt

[monkeybomb]

LOL, yes e-bay feedback is the best way to pick a keyboard encoder.

And watch out for tiger-heli he gets money for every guy that he helps get the best product.

No need to come out swinging.  There's room for your encoder in the market.  Not everyone goes high end.  You can be like the Wal-mart for encoders.

[markrvp]

I think one of the smartest moves you could make in this hobby is to heed the advice of Tiger-Heli.  I tried to match wits with him one time and got my "wits" handed to me.  He really knows his stuff, has been a great mentor to many on these boards, and is very helpful and honest about his opinions on all products.  Anyone who slams Tiger-Heli goes straight to the top of my S%*T list.

Ebay is not the best place to judge a product's worthiness.  I have seen I-pacs go for over their retail price on Ebay.  People who don't know better will buy whatever they see listed.  If the Tokn encoder is the only one you ever used, then you would probably give it good feedback.  Feedback is based more on a seller's ability to deliver a product as advertised than an endorsement of a particular product.  When the Tokn encoder is praised by people who actually have cabinets presented on this board, then I'll take a look at it.  However, right now we already have two manufacturer's lines of products with more features backed by great customer support. 

A money back guarantee is great, but if my choice is a working encoder or a refund, I'll choose an encoder I know that works. 

And just in case anyone questions whether or not I know enough about these products to comment, I have an I-pac 4, Minipac, GP-Wiz 32, and GP-Wiz 49.  I've tried products based on the product, and not the seller, so I'm always looking for the best product.

<overabundance of male testosterone removed --- saint>

[Tiger-Heli]

Thanks all for the vote of confidence!!!

Be aware of slanted emails and postings from competitors, especially ones that contain Tiger in their name.

MattP is no doubt referrring to my comments in this thread, which he doesn't want you to read: 
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37064.0.html

I just want to point out that I am not a competitor.  I wrote a web page reviewing different encoder options, was sent the info on the Tokn16 to include (and am in the process of doing so), and apparently Mattp doesn't like my conclusions, but they would have been the same with or without his prior contact.

The TOKN16 isn't a horrible product, but it is more expensive than the KeyWiz ECO for half the number of inputs, no shifted inputs, not programmable from software, etc.

[Buddabing]

Can anyone speak to these??

They are on Ebay for virtually nothing and promise easy installation.

Are they easy to use, dependable? A good cheap option???

Thanks

Tony

Seems to me that this encoder would be ideal for a hot-swappable panel application. If you can get them for $20 shipped on Ebay, you could put one in each panel and you could swap them seamlessly with only a PS/2 cable connecting the panel to the PC.

[Tiger-Heli]

Seems to me that this encoder would be ideal for a hot-swappable panel application. If you can get them for $20 shipped on Ebay, you could put one in each panel and you could swap them seamlessly with only a PS/2 cable connecting the panel to the PC.

As long as you can get by with only 16 inputs per panel.  However, a better option for this is probably the GP-Wiz, as this is USB so is designed for hot-swapping, 32 inputs, and multiple boards can be used together without custom programming (of the boards).

[Bloinkxp]

The review on retroblast.com is up.

http://www.retroblast.com/reviews/tokn16.html

Kevin rules (imho of course).

-b

[KevSteele]

Tiger:

I just checked the PCB layout on the TOKN16 - I'm not positive, but it does look like it is a matrix-style grounding, and not a common ground. It may have well been the luck of the draw that the grounds I combined worked.

Kevin

[saint]

This thread has been truncated by saint, roughly about the point where it became a train wreck. In hopes of avoiding charges of being biased:

- The gist of what was removed was a question as to the bias of Kevin's review, and the defense thereof. It degenerated from there.
- Please feel free to repost anything related to the topic at hand, the merits of the TOKN KB16 encoder, including comparisons to other products as deemed relevant.
- Please refrain from flaming one another.

Thanks!

--- saint

[Tiger-Heli]

Tiger:

I just checked the PCB layout on the TOKN16 - I'm not positive, but it does look like it is a matrix-style grounding, and not a common ground. It may have well been the luck of the draw that the grounds I combined worked.

Kevin

Cool, thanks for checking that out, Kevin. 

Thanks for keeping the thread more civil, Saint 

[RandyT]

Kevin, the GP-Wiz products probably shouldn't be included in the review.  They are not Keyboard encoders, rather GamePad style encoders (That's where the GP in the name comes from.)  The Eco with the pin header is the "No-Solder Eco", if that's what you were looking for.

FWIW,

RandyT

[KevSteele]

Kevin, the GP-Wiz products probably shouldn't be included in the review.

[Bloinkxp]

Tiger:

I just checked the PCB layout on the TOKN16 - I'm not positive, but it does look like it is a matrix-style grounding, and not a common ground. It may have well been the luck of the draw that the grounds I combined worked.

Kevin

Cool, thanks for checking that out, Kevin. 

So that means that each button has it's own ground on the PCB?
ie.

JU  JD  Jl  JR  C1  B1   B2 ... etc
GU GD Gl GR G1  GB1 GB2 ...

Thanks for keeping the thread more civil, Saint 

Agreed.  Thanks Saint

[KevSteele]

Tiger:

I just checked the PCB layout on the TOKN16 - I'm not positive, but it does look like it is a matrix-style grounding, and not a common ground. It may have well been the luck of the draw that the grounds I combined worked.

Kevin

Cool, thanks for checking that out, Kevin.

[RandyT]

I just checked the PCB layout on the TOKN16 - I'm not positive, but it does look like it is a matrix-style grounding, and not a common ground. It may have well been the luck of the draw that the grounds I combined worked.

...<snip>...

 ... but suffice it to say - you need the dedicated ground wire for each switch.

Many would consider this a pretty important "con" for the device.  What's your take on it?

RandyT

[mattp]

Tiger:

I just checked the PCB layout on the TOKN16 - I'm not positive, but it does look like it is a matrix-style grounding, and not a common ground. It may have well been the luck of the draw that the grounds I combined worked.

Kevin

Cool, thanks for checking that out, Kevin. 

So that means that each button has it's own ground on the PCB?
ie.

JU  JD  Jl  JR  C1  B1   B2 ... etc
GU GD Gl GR G1  GB1 GB2 ...

No, it's more like a matrix:



Line 1 is connected to every even bottom pin, Line 2 to every odd bottom pin. Line 3 is acutally a different line for each set of four pins. That's a bit cluttered (and rushed) explanation, but suffice it to say - you need the dedicated ground wire for each switch.

Kevin

[KevSteele]

I just checked the PCB layout on the TOKN16 - I'm not positive, but it does look like it is a matrix-style grounding, and not a common ground. It may have well been the luck of the draw that the grounds I combined worked.

...<snip>...

 ... but suffice it to say - you need the dedicated ground wire for each switch.

Many would consider this a pretty important "con" for the device.

[mattp]

All,
The TOKN KB16 design is implemented using a 2 ground multiplex.
gnd1 appears on all odd pins, gnd2 appears on all even pins.
You can reduce the number of wires and run a ground bus as long as you keep this in mind.
The gnds were provided on every pin as a convenience when wiring from a floppy cable.
The easiest thing to do though is just to follow the wiring diagram. A round floppy cable is
best in this case as you don't have to split it like a flat cable. For the thrifty, round cables
are dirt cheap at svc.com starting at 69 cents.
Cheers,
mattp

[KevSteele]

All,
The TOKN KB16 design is implemented using a 2 ground multiplex.
gnd1 appears on all odd pins, gnd2 appears on all even pins.
You can reduce the number of wires and run a ground bus as long as you keep this in mind.
The gnds were provided on every pin as a convenience when wiring from a floppy cable.
The easiest thing to do though is just to follow the wiring diagram. A round floppy cable is
best in this case as you don't have to split it like a flat cable. For the thrifty, round cables
are dirt cheap at svc.com starting at 69 cents.
Cheers,
mattp

Thanks for clarifying that, Matt!

What's the maximum length you can get rounded floppy cables? I think I've seen 24-inch floppy cables, which should be long enough for wiring any single or two-player panels.

I can just see it now: first rounded cables, then braided covers, then UV-reactant coating -- I just hope the panel designers don't go all "case modding" on us!  'Course, I do want lighted blinky buttons

Kevin

[AmericanDemon]

hey Kev how'd you know I was gonna use Braided UV reactive covers for my wires?  Heatshrink to boot too.    Now if I can simply fit a window in my CP....

[Tiger-Heli]

Is there a major "con" that I'm overlooking?
Kevin

Theoretically, there should be a performance hit b/c the microcontroller has to search the matrix rather than having a dedicated input to each switch.  (But that's in theory, virtually every keyboard uses a matrix based encoder and they've been sucessfully hacked to arcade controls).

Keyboard hacks will have ghosting and blocking issues, but a dedicated encoder can avoid this through diodes.  (I am NOT implying this is a problem with the KB16).

Practically, there is a drawback in that you typically cannot use Perfect 360 joysticks or Druin's rotary interface with non-common ground encoders, but since the KB16 basically uses two grounds, this is probably possible, although you would have to choose which inputs you wired to carefully.

Hope this helps.

[Tiger-Heli]

Kevin, the GP-Wiz products probably shouldn't be included in the review.  They are not Keyboard encoders, rather GamePad style encoders (That's where the GP in the name comes from.)  The Eco with the pin header is the "No-Solder Eco", if that's what you were looking for.
FWIW,
RandyT

Not to be difficult, but I disagree.  Kevin is also comparing it to the I-PAC VE and differentiating it on the basis of USB-PS/2 connection.  If you wanted a reasonably priced (cheaply priced) 32-input USB encoder, the GP-Wiz no-solder ECO version fills that niche nicely (and still for more inputs and less money than the TOKN KB16).

So I personally would include the GP-Wiz non-solder ECO by virtue of it being less expensive and more inputs than the KB16 for those that want a USB option.

Of course, if I continue on, the GP-Wiz49 non-solder ECO (without the analog stick) is also less expensive and more inputs even not counting the 49-way interface part, but I guess we have to stop somewhere (although I didn't when my updated review comes out!!!) 

[KevSteele]

Is there a major "con" that I'm overlooking?
Kevin

Theoretically, there should be a performance hit b/c the microcontroller has to search the matrix rather than having a dedicated input to each switch.

[Tiger-Heli]

The IPAC VE is included because it's Ultimarc's "economy" keyboard encoder - I was trying to compare apples to apples, i.e. each company's "Economy Encoder". I tend to agree with Randy that the comparison chart should be just keyboard encoders, not a mix of gamepad and keyboard encoders.
Kevin

Actually (stepping on ice here so I don't touch off a flame war - with anyone).  I think Ultimarc's "economy" keyboard encoder would be the mini-pac at $29 vs. $34 for the VE.  Also a better comparison choice b/c of the IDE header as opposed to screw terminals, but you need to also point out the addition of a trackball and spinner interface for only $5 more than the TOKN KB16.

I think the VE was introduced as a direct response and competitor to the KeyWiz MAX.

BTW, half the time I forget about the mini-pac since it never used to be linked from Ultimarc's home page, but anyway . . .

I still think the GP-Wiz is competitive in this field, but if you and RandyT both disagree, I guess I'm outvoted (not that I could directly change the page anyway).

[KevSteele]

Well, considering the MiniPAC is next on my review list, I guess I should have considered it (I'm still not used to it being "officially" available from the main page, either!)

I just consider it a different sort of beast for some reason due to the integrated optical encoders. It's still a keyboard encoder at heart, though.

Kevin

[mattp]

Is there a major "con" that I'm overlooking?
Kevin

Theoretically, there should be a performance hit b/c the microcontroller has to search the matrix rather than having a dedicated input to each switch.  (But that's in theory, virtually every keyboard uses a matrix based encoder and they've been sucessfully hacked to arcade controls).

Keyboard hacks will have ghosting and blocking issues, but a dedicated encoder can avoid this through diodes.  (I am NOT implying this is a problem with the KB16).

Practically, there is a drawback in that you typically cannot use Perfect 360 joysticks or Druin's rotary interface with non-common ground encoders, but since the KB16 basically uses two grounds, this is probably possible, although you would have to choose which inputs you wired to carefully.

Hope this helps.

All,
The TOKN KB16 is not implemented in what would be called a traditional keyboard matrix.
There is no row and column scan or search and there are also no ghosting issues. No diodes are needed nor used.
Rather it is a two ground multiplex with high speed interleaved byte latching on a single microcontroller port.
Very effective and very fast for getting port status to the microcontroller and keycodes to your game session.
These are details that the user need not worry about. Its just an implementation detail that is unique to
the TOKN KB16 encoder. Hopefully someone will do some benchmark tests in the near future. Now that would
be interesting. Hey Mr. Kevin Steele, do you own a square wave generator that can simulate some high speed
button mashing?
Cheers,
Matt

[mattp]

Thanks all for the vote of confidence!!!

Be aware of slanted emails and postings from competitors, especially ones that contain Tiger in their name.

MattP is no doubt referrring to my comments in this thread, which he doesn't want you to read: 
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37064.0.html

I just want to point out that I am not a competitor.  I wrote a web page reviewing different encoder options, was sent the info on the Tokn16 to include (and am in the process of doing so), and apparently Mattp doesn't like my conclusions, but they would have been the same with or without his prior contact.

The TOKN16 isn't a horrible product, but it is more expensive than the KeyWiz ECO for half the number of inputs, no shifted inputs, not programmable from software, etc.

The KeyWiz ECO isn't a horrible product either, but it doesn't have connectors, you have to solder it, it doesn't have a keyboard passthrough, it doesn't have a diagnostic LED, it doesn't have EEPROM as non-volatile storage of keycodes sets, its not plug and play, and you have to purchase a USB keyboard or else you have to unplug your keyboard every time you plug in your ECO. There goes your cost savings.

[markrvp]

it's not plug and play

I think you mean it's not hot-swappable.

[Tiger-Heli]

All,
The TOKN KB16 is not implemented in what would be called a traditional keyboard matrix.
There is no row and column scan or search and there are also no ghosting issues. No diodes are needed nor used.
Rather it is a two ground multiplex with high speed interleaved byte latching on a single microcontroller port.
Very effective and very fast for getting port status to the microcontroller and keycodes to your game session.
These are details that the user need not worry about. Its just an implementation detail that is unique to
the TOKN KB16 encoder. Hopefully someone will do some benchmark tests in the near future. Now that would
be interesting. Hey Mr. Kevin Steele, do you own a square wave generator that can simulate some high speed
button mashing?
Cheers,
Matt

Thanks for the clarification.  Is it safe to assume that the KB32 uses a 4-ground multiplex?

[Tiger-Heli]

Good summary Mark, I just have a few things to add.

it's not plug and play

I think you mean it's not hot-swappable.  I have yet to see a modern encoder that is not Plug & Play (meaning the computer recognizes it as a keyboard without the need for additional drivers).

Actually, what you mean is it's not USB - in other words hot-swapping is not officially supported by the specification.  Neither is the KB16, but I understand that you were trying to make a point for the keyboard pass-thru.  Having said that, I hot-swap the KeyWiz all the time, and one of the best uses posted so far for the KB16 (individual encoders for swappable panels by Buddabing) would require hot-swapping of the KB16.

It is my understanding that that is how your board also works, except that your board only supports 16 inputs as compared to the 32 inputs supported by the Keywiz.

There are other differences - in order of importance to an arcade cabinet user:

32 useable inputs for the KeyWiz as opposed to 16 useable inputs for the KB16.

24 Shifted inputs for admin keys for the KeyWiz as opposed to 0 for the KB16.  (And KeyWiz admin keys can be activated automatically with a single button using RandyT's adapters).

Keycodes can be loaded from software (stored codesets can be loaded from a batchfile prior to launch) for the KeyWiz as opposed to manual input from a keyboard prior to application launch for the KB16.

Two codesets (the default MAME compatible and one programmed one) are always loaded and available by pressing the Shazaam! key and moving the joystick left or right (unique to the KeyWiz).

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I would expect direct input to a microprocessor line (KeyWiz) to perform better than multiplexed connections (KB16), but I suspect the KB16 is not noticeably slow in typical applications, and I have never seen a head-to-head test of any encoder on performance issues.

KB16 uses EEPROM, KeyWiz uses SDRAM but KeyWiz software can be used to load the last used keycode, creating a Virtual EEPROM mode.

Wiring is sortof a toss-up, but not a big deal either way.  With the KeyWiz, you can run a single ground wire to all of your microswitches and back to the encoder.  With the KB16, you either run individual grounds, or you run at least two separate ground wires to connect your microswitches.  The practical implication of this is that I could hook a Perfect 360 or Druin interface to any input on a KeyWiz.  On a KB16, I would have to carefully make sure that all the inputs were on the same ground bank.  In reality, this is probably not a concern, as with 16 total inputs, it is usually not practical to do dual Perfect 360's, etc. 

I haven't seen anyone attack your products here without first being provoked by one of your BS statements.  Knock it off.

Well, in fairness, I probably have attacked the product without being provoked first by one of his statements, but that is because it stacks up so poorly.  To summarize - these are the only situations where the KB16 excels over the KeyWiz Eco:

As mentioned above, the unit could be useful as a dedicated controller attached to removable panels.  Here, EEPROM is the determining factor.

For a single player (or two player alternating) cabinet - the unit would be acceptable, if the price is lower than the KeyWiz, otherwise you could just use a KeyWiz and not utilize some of the features.

EEPROM is an advantage, but not in the ways most people think it is.  If you hot-swap controls, SDRAM encoders will revert to default settings.  In the case of the KeyWiz, this is the MAME-compatible keyset, and in MAME you can reassign keys to match ANY default keyset.  So where this would really come into play would be if you principally used the encoder with PC games or older Emu's that didn't allow reassignment of keycodes AND you wanted to hot-swap the encoder.   In this case, the KeyWiz will require you to activate it's software either from a desktop shortcut or a batch file prior to loading the game, and an EEPROM-based encoder will not require this.  But I think that is a small minority of the users here.

To make this short and sweet:  For the same price point, the KeyWiz ECO is basically the same unit as the KeyWiz Max (with the switchable pass-thru and screw terminals removed), and the KB16 is - for all practical purposes - very similar to a 16-input programmable keyboard hack.

[mattp]

it's not plug and play

I think you mean it's not hot-swappable.  I have yet to see a modern encoder that is not Plug & Play (meaning the computer recognizes it as a keyboard without the need for additional drivers).



And while it's true that the very least expensive KeyWiz Eco requires soldering, you can see from the picture below that there is a version for $3 more that uses an IDE cable to connect to the inputs.  It is my understanding that that is how your board also works, except that your board only supports 16 inputs as compared to the 32 inputs supported by the Keywiz. 

Therein is the great Equalizer.   When I'm playing my arcade machine with a fellow gamer, I am not using the keyboard, I am not trying to figure out why the encoder doesn't work by looking at the LED, and I am not admiring the EEprom memory chip.  What I am using is more than 16 inputs during a 2 player game of Mortal Kombat.

I don't have a problem with your product and I am happy you are so proud of it.  What I do have a problem with is you badmouthing established products which do a good job, at the same time trying to tell new users on this forum that your product is exactly what they need.  A quick glance at the project pages shows that 90% of the projects built here would have non-working controls if powered by a TOKN KB16.

I haven't seen anyone attack your products here without first being provoked by one of your BS statements.  Knock it off.

Mark
The previous quote was simple and fair reply to Tiger-Heli's statement.
He emphasized ECOs strong points by pointing out what the TOKN KB16 did not have.
More inputs and a program to hot swap keysets, all great features, no argument there.
The reply basically did the same, ie pointed out things that ECO lacked that would be a weighing
point when evaluating your cost and feature set.
No one is trying to piss you off here, nor are any attacks being made.
I'm simply balancing some of these quotes that have been posted so that everyone has a clear view of what's going on.
The hot plug statement refers to the fact that ECOs need run a program every time you replug the encoder
which is a very valid point if you are using a PS2 keyboard. This is where the functionality of NVM comes
to play. If you can not see the value in that, then I can not help you. Did you buy a USB keyboard or are you
unplugging and replugging your PS2 keyboard? If so, how much did you pay for it?
Matt

[mattp]

All,
The TOKN KB16 is not implemented in what would be called a traditional keyboard matrix.
There is no row and column scan or search and there are also no ghosting issues. No diodes are needed nor used.
Rather it is a two ground multiplex with high speed interleaved byte latching on a single microcontroller port.
Very effective and very fast for getting port status to the microcontroller and keycodes to your game session.
These are details that the user need not worry about. Its just an implementation detail that is unique to
the TOKN KB16 encoder. Hopefully someone will do some benchmark tests in the near future. Now that would
be interesting. Hey Mr. Kevin Steele, do you own a square wave generator that can simulate some high speed
button mashing?
Cheers,
Matt

Thanks for the clarification.  Is it safe to assume that the KB32 uses a 4-ground multiplex?

So we're moving on now and starting a KeyWiz Max vs TOKN KB32 Texas death match?
Can the crowd handle it?

[Tiger-Heli]

The previous quote was simple and fair reply to Tiger-Heli's statement.
He emphasized ECOs strong points by pointing out what the TOKN KB16 did not have.
More inputs and a program to hot swap keysets, all great features, no argument there.
The reply basically did the same, ie pointed out things that ECO lacked that would be a weighing
point when evaluating your cost and feature set.
No one is trying to piss you off here, nor are any attacks being made.

It was also highly inaccurate in implying that you have to solder with the KeyWiz ECO when in fact the IDE header version is less expensive than the KB16 and uses the same input methods.

I'm simply balancing some of these quotes that have been posted so that everyone has a clear view of what's going on.

What you fail to realize is that I think everyone DOES have a clear view of what's going on.

The hot plug statement refers to the fact that ECOs need run a program every time you replug the encoder which is a very valid point if you are using a PS2 keyboard. This is where the functionality of NVM comes to play. If you can not see the value in that, then I can not help you.

Not true.  As stated above, ECOs need to run a program every time you need to use a non-standard codeset to support a program that doesn't have re-mappable inputs.  For MAME and general emulation use, this is NEVER.  The only times I have re-programmed my KeyWiz is to launch Microsoft Train Simulator or Auran Trainz.  And in these cases, I simply run the KeyWiz software from a batch file as opposed to programming every input every time to use a KB16 (and then back for MAME use).

Did you buy a USB keyboard or are you
unplugging and replugging your PS2 keyboard? If so, how much did you pay for it?

Bought a PS/2 to USB keyboard adapter for $4.95, so yeah, I guess for a desktop controller or to have a keyboard permanently connected, it's an extra $5 for double the number of inputs and the other advantages.

[ddockery]

Forget the adpater, if you want a no frills keyboard, you can get a plain USB keyboard for $5. If you wait a while, Office Max will have one Free after rebate before too long.  Getting a USB keybaord or swapping would be a very slight disincentive I guess, but not enough of one to sway most buyers' purchase.

[paigeoliver]

Hee hee, Ultracade just had all the auctions for those things removed because they had the word "Mame" in the title.

Or at least most of them are gone, the one I was bidding on go Vero'd.

[Chris]

Hee hee, Ultracade just had all the auctions for those things removed because they had the word "Mame" in the title.

How is he still getting away with that?

[Tiger-Heli]

I still find 5 auctions available -

Hee hee, Ultracade just had all the auctions for those things removed because they had the word "Mame" in the title.

How is he still getting away with that?

If Foley says he is the copyright holder and E-bay takes his word for it and pulls the auction before the seller can protest it . . .
(I'm assuming, not active on E-bay).

[paigeoliver]

Hee hee, Ultracade just had all the auctions for those things removed because they had the word "Mame" in the title.

How is he still getting away with that?

I don't know, I emailed ebay's VeRO department about it, but I am certain nothing but form letters will come of it.

My best suggestion is that the KB16 maker join the VeRO program and start ending 2 Ultracade auctions for every one of his that Ultracade ends.

Yes, there are still 5 available, but there were more before, and the one I was bidding got VeRO'd.

[Tiger-Heli]

Thanks for the clarification.  Is it safe to assume that the KB32 uses a 4-ground multiplex?

So we're moving on now and starting a KeyWiz Max vs TOKN KB32 Texas death match?
Can the crowd handle it?

Mattp,

That was a legitimate question on my part.

IMHO, due to lack of screw terminals the KB32 still squares off against the KeyWiz Eco, but at least it's much closer to being in the same ballpark.

[KevSteele]

Hee hee, Ultracade just had all the auctions for those things removed because they had the word "Mame" in the title.

How is he still getting away with that?

I don't know, I emailed ebay's VeRO department about it, but I am certain nothing but form letters will come of it.

My best suggestion is that the KB16 maker join the VeRO program and start ending 2 Ultracade auctions for every one of his that Ultracade ends.

Yes, there are still 5 available, but there were more before, and the one I was bidding got VeRO'd.

I believe he may still be doing these sort of things by claiming to do it "on the behalf" of MAMEdevs. I'd still like to know what sort of arrangements they made with him with regards to getting the MAME trademark back...

Kevin

[paigeoliver]

I severely doubt the mamedevs want keyboard encoder auctions shut down.

[KevSteele]

I severely doubt the mamedevs want keyboard encoder auctions shut down.

The question is whether they've given him any authority to act on their behalf regarding trademark violations. He may have been granted that power with regards to cabs, and is "extending his reach" to include encoders.

I'd like to know if there was any "pact with the devil" here, and if that's why he apparently still feels he has the power to shut down auctions...

Do you have an auction number for the one that was pulled? I'd like to take a look.

Kevin

[monkeybomb]

I'd still like to know what sort of arrangements they made with him with regards to getting the MAME trademark back...

Kevin

I would too.  I suspect that the deal involves ultracade being aloud to use MAME.  The way the license is worded I think ultracade could use MAME.  No one knows if he has been all along anyway.


As for the KB32 I missed the part where the cost was given.  I can't imagine paying 30 dollars for an encoder without screw termminals.  Is it more than 30?

I also think that the keywiz no solder eco is a way better choice, but I can see a place for the KB16.  I thought they were cheaper when I saw the e-bay prices and bid $15 three or four times, but the market showed they were worth 17.  I thought it would be fun to MAME my desk at home with one joystick and three buttons.  When I thought it was cheaper it seemed like the choice.

[paigeoliver]

6183328291 -Tokn KB16 - MAME arcade keyboard encoder w/ PS2 cable

Auction is gone though.

[Tiger-Heli]

As for the KB32 I missed the part where the cost was given.  I can't imagine paying 30 dollars for an encoder without screw termminals.  Is it more than 30?

Only available as an E-bay auction, not on the TOKN.net site.  The TOKN KB32 is currently (17May05) readily available on E-bay for around $10.50 (but most auctions seem to close around $30-$35 or more), but I am not sure how long this price will be available.

I also think that the keywiz no solder eco is a way better choice, but I can see a place for the KB16.  I thought they were cheaper when I saw the e-bay prices and bid $15 three or four times, but the market showed they were worth 17.  I thought it would be fun to MAME my desk at home with one joystick and three buttons.  When I thought it was cheaper it seemed like the choice.

Agreed - if you look at half the number of inputs of the KeyWiz for half the price - it changes the picture immensely, but that requires getting lucky on just the right E-bay auction and MattP has said that the E-bay offerings were a limited introductory deal, so I have been limiting discussion to the officially posted prices.

[ddockery]

He can email eBay and claim to do things on the behalf of the MAME team w/o their consent you know.  Hell, ANY of us can do that.  I've done it myself when I see the CDRs full of MAME rom sets.

[RandyT]

The TOKN KB16 is not implemented in what would be called a traditional keyboard matrix.
There is no row and column scan or search and there are also no ghosting issues. No diodes are needed nor used.
Rather it is a two ground multiplex with high speed interleaved byte latching on a single microcontroller port.

Sounds impressive.  But you just described a traditional keyboard matrix.

I don't have one of your products, but based on the descriptions you and others have given, it sounds like the 8 inputs are doubled (read: connected to a total of 16 pins on your header) and then you have 2 "ground" lines (which aren't always ground.)

If you are alternating high and low on those two "ground" lines (columns) and checking for a specific result at one of the other eight (rows), then you are indeed using a traditional keyboard-style matrix.  And if this is so, and you are not employing firmware methods that block certain keypresses, or using diodes to prevent backfeeed, then it would seem pretty likely that there would be potential ghosting problems.

There are only so many ways to skin that cat, are you saying you've come up with a new one?

RandyT

[KevSteele]

He can email eBay and claim to do things on the behalf of the MAME team w/o their consent you know.

[KevSteele]

I just got some troubling news - it's not Foley pulling the auctions, but MAMEdev themselves!

(See "MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions" in the Main Forum for more details - it doesn't belong in this thread: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37734.0.html )

Apparently they are the ones cancelling auctions, and have sent out letters to several vendors with the new "rules"

David Foley's getting his wish, and he's got MAMEdev working as his enforcers...

Kevin

Edit: moved details to new thread

[ddockery]

They're just trying to cover their own asses, there's nothing wrong with that. There's also a thread about this on the MAME board.  Why SHOULD you list an auction as "Keyboard encoder for MAME"?  Keyboard encoders have hundreds of uses - It seems like "KB16 keyboard encoder - 16 inputs" should work just as well. Anyone looking for encoder to use with MAME know what they are looking for.  Sticking MAME in the title wouldn't really help anyway.  I can understand being upset at the auctions being pulled, but now that we know what they want, I don't see any problems with it.

[KevSteele]

Anyone looking for encoder to use with MAME know what they are looking for.

[monkeybomb]

I have had the search "MAME" in my ebay favorite searches for sometime.  It's is the fastest way to find new parts.

[Tiger-Heli]

Anyone looking for encoder to use with MAME know what they are looking for.  Sticking MAME in the title wouldn't really help anyway.

I'd disagree with this - if someone is building a MAME cab and starts searching for MAME-compatible stuff, they're going to search on "MAME". I know I get an awful lot of search traffic on my site that has "MAME" in the search string...

Kevin

It had nothing to do with Ultracade. The auctions were taken down by the MAME team. There is widespread abuse of the name, and eBay is the #1 location for it. People are using "MAME" to sell all kinds of stuff, legal and illegal, and it's just going to have to stop, period. You can say "compatible with MAME(tm)" or "works with MAME(tm)" once in your ad -- that's fair use. But you can't put MAME in the title, you can't name your product after MAME, and you can't use MAME to sell anything illegal. Respond to the address listed in the takedown notice and ask for a full list of rules surrounding the use of the name MAME in auctions.

I like this example the best: should you be able to list an auction with "L@@K! Paper cups! Coca-Cola! Pepsi!"? No -- you're using the trademarked names to sell your non-endorsed, tangentially-related item. Same goes for MAME.

Aaron

From Aaron Giles on www.mame.net

That said, they've said you can still say "compatible with MAME(tm)" in the description, so just seach for "encoder MAME" and check the "Search Title and Description" box on FleaBay.

[KevSteele]

Anyone looking for encoder to use with MAME know what they are looking for.

[Tiger-Heli]

Of course, that'll only work if you know to do it. If you're just searching on eBay, you don't generally have to know that some keywords are now "forbidden" and can only be used once in an auction description... 
Kevin

Someone planning to build a MAME cab should at least RTFM or keep up with this board or the www.mame.net board enough to know what the new license requirements are.

[markrvp]

Of course, that'll only work if you know to do it. If you're just searching on eBay, you don't generally have to know that some keywords are now "forbidden" and can only be used once in an auction description...

[Tiger-Heli]

Of course, that'll only work if you know to do it. If you're just searching on eBay, you don't generally have to know that some keywords are now "forbidden" and can only be used once in an auction description... 
Kevin

Someone planning to build a MAME cab should at least RTFM or keep up with this board or the www.mame.net board enough to know what the new license requirements are.

I agree that they should, but know that they don't.  I was well into planning my cabinet before I got onto the message boards here.  I was mainly reading the project web pages from the projects listed under Examples.  I think this board is a little intimidating at first.  Also, the mame.net website (and mameworld.net) is an unnavigable labyrinth to me.  I know there is a ton of stuff on there that I can find links to through Google searches, but have no idea how to access from the main page.  I depend on this site solely for my MAME information.

Having said that, if someone can tell me how to better navigate the main MAME sites, I will happily do so.

True, but if you download MAME, you download the license.  The newer versions say "Be sure to check out the new changed license" and provide a link before you download MAME!!!

[mattp]

The previous quote was simple and fair reply to Tiger-Heli's statement.
He emphasized ECOs strong points by pointing out what the TOKN KB16 did not have.
More inputs and a program to hot swap keysets, all great features, no argument there.
The reply basically did the same, ie pointed out things that ECO lacked that would be a weighing
point when evaluating your cost and feature set.
No one is trying to piss you off here, nor are any attacks being made.

It was also highly inaccurate in implying that you have to solder with the KeyWiz ECO when in fact the IDE header version is less expensive than the KB16 and uses the same input methods.

I'm simply balancing some of these quotes that have been posted so that everyone has a clear view of what's going on.

What you fail to realize is that I think everyone DOES have a clear view of what's going on.

The hot plug statement refers to the fact that ECOs need run a program every time you replug the encoder which is a very valid point if you are using a PS2 keyboard. This is where the functionality of NVM comes to play. If you can not see the value in that, then I can not help you.

Not true.

[NoOne=NBA=]

You would have to launch MAME with your
keyboard plugged in, unplug your keyboard, then plug in your encoder to
game.

Is this necessary?
I'm running MacOS and WinXP on all my current projects, but would like to know for future projects, if necessary.

If the computer sees the encoder AS a keyboard, it should launch automatically, and go right to gaming, right?
I have only had my keyboard hooked to my cab ONCE in the past 6 months, and that was to do some cleanup/renaming on my hard drive.

How would you even change a key setting in this scenario?

You can navigate all the menus with a joystick, hit the "enter" button, and then hit whatever button you have that you want bound.
I haven't changed anything at the encoder end since I installed the encoder YEARS ago.
I can't even GET to my encoder without disassembling something on my cab.

Unless you have a rare app, that won't let you change the keybinds, you can change them all in the software to match your layout.

[RandyT]

Many MAME projects resurrect old PCs and make them useful again
by running DOS or UNIX for MAME which has a lot less overhead than Windows. This poses a challenge for the ECO as DOS does not support USB.

If you insist on continuing to talk out of your keister with regards to my products, do some research or ask some questions (like I did about your supposed non-matrixed encoder and have yet to get an answer from you).

The KeyWiz Eco is PS/2 and the default codeset (i.e. ALWAYS available, even after programming) is 100% MAME compatible.  No programming necessary for DOS , Linux, whathaveyou.  There is also a DOS compatible uploads utility that can be placed in your autoexec.bat for automated code uploads under that OS.

TOKN KB16's on the fly programming via the keyboard passthrough
works independent of the OS. You can be in Windows, Unix, or DOS
and still use your game console and keyboard at the same time and
reprogram buttons with a simple keypress.

Admittedly, my take on things is a little different than some, but I had a gamepad once that you had to program that way.  It was frustrating as heck because after playing a couple of games and trying to remember what I programmed to do what in each of the games I played, I got frustrated and chucked it in the corner (in fact I think it's still there). 

In any case, you won't find a commercial gaming product that uses this approach anymore, and my theory is that this is the reason.

But I could be wrong...

RandyT

[KevSteele]

In any case, you won't find a commercial gaming product that uses this approach anymore, and my theory is that this is the reason.

But I could be wrong...

RandyT

You mean like the "on-the-fly" key programming in the X-Arcade, or the "on-the-fly" key programming in the I-PAC? Both of these products have the ability to reprogram keys the same way that the KB16 does.

Kevin

[RandyT]

In any case, you won't find a commercial gaming product that uses this approach anymore, and my theory is that this is the reason.

But I could be wrong...

You mean like the "on-the-fly" key programming in the X-Arcade, or the "on-the-fly" key programming in the I-PAC? Both of these products have the ability to reprogram keys the same way that the KB16 does.

Sorry, I was referring primarily to mainstream commercial products, like the one I mentioned.  I have a hard time putting the X-Arcade or the I-PAC or the KeyWiz in the same category.

PC game controllers use software and profiles that can be saved and loaded as desired.  The IPAC *can* be programmed from the keyboard, but it's not necessary to and certainly not preferred by most who use it.

If I'm not mistaken, the X-arcade also allows multiple profiles to be stored in the unit and allows the active one to be selected with a switch.  Similar programming method, but the functionality of the unit is quite different due to this extra profile storage capability.

RandyT

[KevSteele]

Agreed, Randy, both the X-Arcade's switchable "banks" of programmed keys and the IPAC's ability to manually program or load profiles makes them more versatile than just having to manually reassign keys each time.

If it's a one-time thing it's fine, but if you need to swap between key assignments it would get old fast.

I still like the nonvolatile memory, though - program it once, and use it anywhere (very handy if you're building a portable control panel, ala X-Arcade or HotRod) You can obviously work around not having NV memory if you're building a dedicated cab, of course!

Bottom line, certain features appeal to certain consumers. While having lots of inputs may be the most important feature to one person, another may want NV memory or a keyboard passthrough.

It's nice that we have a variety of encoders to choose from. (Heck, there's even an encoder with a PC watchdog circuit that reboots the computer if it crashes!)

Kevin

[RandyT]

It's nice that we have a variety of encoders to choose from.

This is hard to argue with.  However...

based on what appears to be an attempt to obfuscate the fact that the TOKN encoder uses a matrix, I am starting to have some deeper concerns about certain functional aspects of the unit.

If my suspicions are correct, I wouldn't recommend them to anyone, but I'm still waiting for mattp to reply to my technical questions.

As a related matter, could you outline the tests you performed on the unit to give it your "performed flawlessly" rating? 

Thanks,
RandyT

[KevSteele]

As a related matter, could you outline the tests you performed on the unit to give it your "performed flawlessly" rating?

[RandyT]

I checked the KeyThis record to see if there were any ghost or duplicate keystrokes, and found none.

How about "blocking"?  I'm no stranger to this stuff, and so far it's not adding up.  mattp's silence on the matter seems a little suspicious as well.

If you have a multi-meter and feel like taking a more "technical" approach, let me know.

RandyT

[KevSteele]

I checked the KeyThis record to see if there were any ghost or duplicate keystrokes, and found none.

How about "blocking"?

[RandyT]

I've tried to be polite, but our conversations always head downhill fast, and I'm not going to go there again. I won't be replying to any more of your posts - you don't like me, I don't like you. No good can come of our public "conversations."

Wow..you took a serious offer to assist you in delving deeper into the workings of something that might have a major flaw that you could have overlooked  in your review (much like you overlooked the fact that the encoder is matrixed in the first place) and turned it into a personal attack.  And BTW, I do want to make sure that members of the BYOAC community aren't taken in by technical sounding mumbo-jumbo like the way the matrix was described earlier.  I am a member of this community, not just a vendor that blows through when they have marketing BS to spew, and as such I have personal obligations to share my knowledge when appropriate, even when it doesn't jive with your agenda.
 
Anyone else have a multi-meter and one of these and want to do some technical testing?

RandyT

[Hoopz]

I did a quick search but could not find a definition for blocking.

Is it when the encoder sends a keystroke from a button to the pc and blocks/stops another valid keystroke from a different button being sent?

Sorry to hijack what's left of the thread....

[RandyT]

I did a quick search but could not find a definition for blocking.

Is it when the encoder sends a keystroke from a button to the pc and blocks/stops another valid keystroke from a different button being sent?

Sorry to hijack what's left of the thread....

Blocking is a firmware methodology to prevent "ghosting" on matrixed keyboard encoder. 

Ghosting occurs when 2 keypresses occur on the same row and same column of the matrix simultaneously.  Without diodes, the signal will back-feed to a 4th position and the encoder senses a switch closure where none has been closed.  I should draw a picture as it's easier to demonstrate that way, but the gist is the same.

Blocking will keep the condition from occuring by disabling the sensing of the third and offending closure when it calculates that a ghosting condition will occur.  The net effect is that when certain combinations of keys are pressed, certain other keys are locked out to prevent ghosting.  This is how virtually all modern keyboards handle the situation.

Keep in mind that I don't know if this is happening here, and I'd like mattp to clarify this situation for everyone.  As I said before, there are only so many ways to skin this cat, and one method or the other has to be employed. 

It's also pretty easy to test for once the matrix is mapped out, and that's what the multi-meter is for.

RandyT

[Hoopz]

Ghosting occurs when 2 keypresses occur on the same row and same column of the matrix simultaneously.  Without diodes, the signal will back-feed to a 4th position and the encoder senses a switch closure where none has been closed.  I should draw a picture as it's easier to demonstrate that way, but the jist is the same.

Blocking will keep the condition from occuring by disabling the sensing of the third and offending closure when it calculates that a ghosting condition will occur.  The net effect is that when certain combinations of keys are pressed, certain other keys are locked out to prevent ghosting.  This is how virtually all modern keyboards handle the situation.

Keep in mind that I don't know if this is happening here, and I'd like mattp to clarify this situation for everyone.  As I said before, there are only so many ways to skin this cat, and one method or the other has to be employed. 

It's also pretty easy to test for once the matrixed is mapped out, and that's what the multi-meter is for.

RandyT

No more guessing for me.  lol.  Thanks Randy.  I understand now.

[mattp]

I checked the KeyThis record to see if there were any ghost or duplicate keystrokes, and found none.

How about "blocking"?

[RandyT]

To answer Randy-Helis question, yes the design approach can be referred as a 2x8 matrix.

That's not what you said before.  Care to reveal why?

Your own comments regarding the validity of a matrix implementation that ten billion keyboards across the planet employ followed by open speculation are without merit.

I don't know how to interpret this.  Simple question:  Are you or are you not employing "blocking" or a form of "blocking" as a means of preventing the phantom keystroke condition?

Passthrough was and is a challenge. TOKN stepped up to that challenge. You side stepped that challenge and threw in a toggle switch as a band-aid.

Nice try.  I looked at a feature that used up 2 precious inputs on a microcontroller and made a conscious decision not to devote them to it.  With a little planning, the KeyWiz can support a workable 4 player control panel.  Had I given up 2 of the inputs for a feature that I considered to have less merit, this would not have been possible.  The switch also keeps your drunken buddies from messing up your game by bashing on the keyboard when you are trying to play

Fun Fact:  We sell more KeyWiz Ecos than any of of our other products and we sell plenty. The Eco version has absolutely no pass-through provisions whatsoever. 

There goes your theory.

RandyT

[mattp]

To answer Randy-Helis question, yes the design approach can be referred as a 2x8 matrix.

That's not what you said before.

[Tiger-Heli]

Saint,
This group of threads was launched by a registered user of
your forum with the primary intent of denigrating a competitor's
product. This type of sleaze marketing is common and unfortunately
a gross misuse of public domain.

See this link to an internet marketing newletter that summarizes these
practices. http://www.apexpacific.com/newsletters/nl2004apr.html

I'll close by stating that I'm leaving
it up to the mediator of this forum and those involved
to examine the user profile registation dates and thread contents
for signs of this type of abuse.

Thank you and best regards,
Mattp
Tokn Media

Da#n, have to retype several thread replies.

Mattp - sorry if you consider factual information to be denigrating your product and if BYOAC members don't share your love for it.

[Tiger-Heli]

Lots of this got lost and probably not worth responding to, but - - -

You can do this if you already own a keyboard that supports USB and PS2.
I don't think you can do this with a PS2 only keyboard.

It's actually a PC-AT keyboard with an adapter to go to mini-DIN and then an adapter to go to USB.

Details here - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,35840.0.html

And as stated, I could have used a new USB keyboard for $10.

TOKN KB16's on the fly programming via the keyboard passthrough
works independent of the OS. You can be in Windows, Unix, or DOS
and still use your game console and keyboard at the same time and
reprogram buttons with a simple keypress.

As long as you don't mind re-programming every input whenever you switch applications and switch back

[Tiger-Heli]

I still like the nonvolatile memory, though - program it once, and use it anywhere (very handy if you're building a portable control panel, ala X-Arcade or HotRod) You can obviously work around not having NV memory if you're building a dedicated cab, of course!

I like it, but it's over-rated.  The KeyWiz default set is MAME-compatible, and I can use my KeyWiz controlled CP in MAME on any computer with no re-configuration.  Now if I wanted to play the same PC game on multiple computers without re-configuration, different story, but this will be a very small market segment.

It's nice that we have a variety of encoders to choose from. (Heck, there's even an encoder with a PC watchdog circuit that reboots the computer if it crashes!)

Which one? - Serious Question

[CheffoJeffo]

This group of threads was launched by a registered user of
your forum with the primary intent of denigrating a competitor's
product. This type of sleaze marketing is common and unfortunately
a gross misuse of public domain.

Do I understand you correctly -- you are saying that all of these threads were started by a single user (using new registrations) for the intent of hurting your product ?

Strange ... I always suspected that they were planted by someone wanting to help your product, but that it kinda backfired because for most frankenpanel builders or those who need to remap keys regularly (like, I suspect, most of the folks here), your product isn't the best choice (IMPO, of course).

Cheers.

[Tiger-Heli]

Listen, Randy, I appreciate your valiant attempts to protect BYOAC users from other encoders, but I'm not going to keep up this thread and help your witch hunt.

That was a little uncalled for IMHO.

We have now established that the KB16 uses a matrix (after Kev's reply was posted).

Matrix encoders CAN exhibit ghosting or blocking.  Note that I said CAN, not that the KB16 DOES, which I would consider unlikely.

See http://www.mameworld.net/emuadvice/keyhack2.html under "LITTLE KNOWN FACTS AND COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS:" or the shorter explanation at http://www.dribin.org/dave/keyboard/

Blocking is the easiest to test for:  Simply connect all 16 inputs, run GhostKey or other similar software and see if 16 keypresses show up.  However, blocking is typically only used to prevent ghosting from showing up, so it is unlikely to be used on the KE16.

Ghosting is harder to test for.  The easiest method is to randomly press key combinations and see if you ever see a key register that was NOT pressed.  The scientific method is to map out the matrix (either with a multi-meter or through the traces on the board), and then activate three keys on the same row and column and see if a fourth keypress is displayed.

From keyboard hacking, if blocking or a pressed-key limit is not employed, ghosting can be controlled by the use of diodes, but Mattp earlier stated that his design does not use these.

Actually, another concern is masking (I came up with a way to avoid ghosting without diodes, off the top of my head, but I don't think it will work in practice).

Lets say my matrix is defined as follows:

     1    2

1   A    B

2  C     D

Without diodes, pressing A, B, C, and will result in a D output being generated, but I could have D permanently set to not output a code. But masking means that if I release the C key, the output will still register until I release one of the other keys.

Been I while since I reviewed all this, but it should be accurate.

(Also, I would guess that the KB16 does use diodes or some electronic equivalent and avoids these problems, but I have no first-hand knowledge, nor way, nor time to test.)

[Tiger-Heli]

Thank you Kevin. To answer Randy-Helis question, yes the design approach can be referred as a 2x8 matrix.

As RandyT pointed out, that's not what was said here (specifically your comments in reply #28 of this thread):

All,
The TOKN KB16 is not implemented in what would be called a traditional keyboard matrix.
There is no row and column scan or search and there are also no ghosting issues. No diodes are needed nor used.
Rather it is a two ground multiplex with high speed interleaved byte latching on a single microcontroller port.
Very effective and very fast for getting port status to the microcontroller and keycodes to your game session.

This was a conscious design decision that required design and test to get it right. Keep trying to angle this as a downfall and you will fail. Your own comments regarding the validity of a matrix implementation that ten billion keyboards across the planet employ followed by open speculation are without merit.

A matrix implementation using diodes will work fine with no ghosting or blocking as stated above.  There is probably a performance hit as opposed to having each input dedicated on the microcontroller, but it shoud be negligible, at least for BYOAC purposes.

95% or more of the ten billion keyboards do not use diodes and will not allow you to randomly even choose 16 keys (using a 16x8) matrix and have them all register, so I don't think you want to use this to validate your product.

NOTE: I am not saying your product doesn't work as advertised without ghosting or blocking, just that most keyboards don't do this.

[KevSteele]

It's nice that we have a variety of encoders to choose from. (Heck, there's even an encoder with a PC watchdog circuit that reboots the computer if it crashes!)

Which one? - Serious Question

The "KeyDog":

http://www.keydog.net/

[NoOne=NBA=]

Mattp,

If you look at the HAMMERING that RandyT took when he released his 49-way interface, you'll get a better idea of the type of people we have around here.

There is a large contigent here that don't care THAT a product works; they want to know HOW it works.

[saint]

This thread has been locked for posterity. Please feel free to continue this subject in a new thread.

--- saint

[saint]

This subject has been resumed in this thread.

--- saint