I-Pac and Opti-Pac questions

[Major Rock Hardy]

Hi everyone...

I suppose I'm looking for an update on this topic...  don't know if I should start a new thread or what but we'll try this first... here goes:

I have some ideas for getting my first MAME system running:
I'd like to be able to run 2 trackballs for Marble Madness - which as far as I can glean from this thread - implies I need to use AdvanceMAME (w/ ?? OS) or standard MAME w/ win98SE or MAME Analog+ with WinXP?  It sounds like whatever I go with for MAME flavor and OS flavor - I should go with a USB HW solution for trackball interfacing (don't worry DOS is out of the question).

I would prefer Win2k over win98SE and quite a bit over winXP since I'd have to go buy it (I already have win2k and win98SE) and since win2k is much more stable IMO.  Maybe even Linux for stability - which brings me to my next question:

I'm thinking of using GGG's GP-Wiz49  Eco with 49 way sticks.  Will these work under linux?  Is there software/utils to use the DRS technology under linux?  I have read the ggg page and it seems to describe that switching modes is handled in hardware:

"The joystick mode can be selected at any time.  Just hold the Joystick Mode button and press the button associated with the desired mode of operation."

... but then it says:

"-  3 modes of operation.
  - Software Switching w/Automation Capabilities (application available for download)
  - Manual Switching via Button combos
  - Rotary Switch/Jumper mode"

the 2nd mode seems to jive with the first quote (i.e. HW switching) - but if I want to auto-switch it depending on what game I'm running - does that mean I have to run a Windows app?

also on the Linux topic - anyone successfully run 2 trackballs simultaneously (Marble Madness) in linux?   If so, what flavor of MAME was it and what version?

As far as an opti board goes... I'll probably either get an opti pac or hack some USB mice.  So my last question is:

if I have plenty of button inputs from getting the GPwiz's - are there any reasons to go with the opti-pac?  There was a post about on startup the mice hacks will sometimes get swapped - has this been resolved?

Thanks a bunch!

Major Rock Hardy
(xybots killer)

[krick]

I would prefer Win2k over win98SE and quite a bit over winXP since I'd have to go buy it (I already have win2k and win98SE) and since win2k is much more stable IMO.

From what I understand, the latest versions of AdvanceMAME have added CPNMouse support so *technically* you should be able to use dual mice in Windows 2000.

[Tiger-Heli]

I suppose I'm looking for an update on this topic...  don't know if I should start a new thread or what but we'll try this first... here goes:

You should have at least changed the title, since you are asking mainly about the GP-Wiz49's now . . .

I'd like to be able to run 2 trackballs for Marble Madness - which as far as I can glean from this thread - implies I need to use AdvanceMAME (w/ ?? OS) or standard MAME w/ win98SE or MAME Analog+ with WinXP?

Emulator version makes a difference as well.  See http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/main.htm#Optical_Interfaces under OS/Emulator considerations.

It sounds like whatever I go with for MAME flavor and OS flavor - I should go with a USB HW solution for trackball interfacing (don't worry DOS is out of the question).

Correct for dual trackballs and Win98SE only. . . (WinXP can use any combination - well maybe not with the older Analog Plus, where's UrebelScum

I would prefer Win2k over win98SE and quite a bit over winXP since I'd have to go buy it (I already have win2k and win98SE) and since win2k is much more stable IMO.  Maybe even Linux for stability - which brings me to my next question:

AFAIK, Win2K does not support the rawinput code required for multiple mice, so no-go . . .

I'm thinking of using GGG's GP-Wiz49  Eco with 49 way sticks.  Will these work under linux?  Is there software/utils to use the DRS technology under linux?  I have read the ggg page and it seems to describe that switching modes is handled in hardware:

Not sure about this, but I don't think there's a driver so the interfaces probably aren't recognized under Linux (yet . . .)  Switching under Windows can be handled under hardware or software.

the 2nd mode seems to jive with the first quote (i.e. HW switching) - but if I want to auto-switch it depending on what game I'm running - does that mean I have to run a Windows app?

Yes, two of them, not counting your frontend - see http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/set49mode/

also on the Linux topic - anyone successfully run 2 trackballs simultaneously (Marble Madness) in linux?   If so, what flavor of MAME was it and what version?

My guess would be yes and advance mame, but not sure which version (or even definitely sure of the answer.

if I have plenty of button inputs from getting the GPwiz's - are there any reasons to go with the opti-pac?

Yes, specifically, no way to hook a trackball to a GPWiz49.  Apples and Oranges - GPWiz49 equals gamepad hack, Opti-Pac equals mouse hack.

There was a post about on startup the mice hacks will sometimes get swapped - has this been resolved?

As Krick said . . .

[Tiger-Heli]

From what I understand, the latest versions of AdvanceMAME have added CPNMouse support so *technically* you should be able to use dual mice in Windows 2000.  However, I've never seen anyone actually using it so your mileage may vary.

The term I've generally heard bandied about was RawInput and that it won't work in Win2k, but I could be wrong . . .

As for Win98SE being less stable, consider how it will be used.  In a dedicated MAME system, you will most likely not have a lot of crap running in the tray, and you'll be only running one app at a time.  Plus, I doubt you'll leave it running for weeks at a time.

Agreed, I used Win98 for years . . .

When properly set up, a Win98SE system boots far faster, uses far less memory, and is way easier to customize (i.e. "gut") than Win2K or XP.

My experience has been the opposite, WinXP may use more memory, but uses it more consistently and frees it up faster, boots as fast or faster than 98SE when customized, and is is easier to customize and more forgiving if you mess up customizing it . . . but there are lots of other threads debating this.

If you go the 98SE route, be sure to check out the Unofficial Win98SE Service Pack.  I swear by it....   http://exuberant.ms11.net/98sesp.html

There's also a utility that will allow you to graft the good parts of WindowsME into 98SE (provided you have a legal copy of the ME install CD).  It's called 98SE2ME...
http://www.msfn.org/board/index.php?showtopic=46349

Agreed on both points . . .

One of the popular analog encoder boards (I forget which one) can be ordered with one of several USB ids.

The GP-Wiz49, GP-Wiz (), A-PAC, and AKI definitely support this, probably the SJC as well.

[krick]

From what I understand, the latest versions of AdvanceMAME have added CPNMouse support so *technically* you should be able to use dual mice in Windows 2000.  However, I've never seen anyone actually using it so your mileage may vary.

The term I've generally heard bandied about was RawInput and that it won't work in Win2k, but I could be wrong . . .

AdvanceMAME has traditional Win9x (direct input?) dual mouse support, Rawmouse, and CPNmouse support.

RawInput is XP only.  CPNMouse is totally unrelated but works with Windows 2000.  The drawback is that it requires special mouse drivers to make it work.

Some links...

http://cpnmouse.sourceforge.net/
http://www.jstookey.com/arcade/cpnmouse/

[Major Rock Hardy]

To Krick and Tiger-Heli :

thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you !

I really appreciate the info and the speed of the responses!  Perhaps someday I can contribute like you guys do.  Hopefully I can put my 7 years in EE school to good use here 

So to summarize:
Windows 98SE (with appropriate patches) no problemo for regular MAME w/ 2 trackballs simultaneously - or AdvanceMAME in Linux or in Win2k with CPNMouse.

Upon further studying, (including reading the gp-wiz49 thread), it appears there is some interest in getting a linux interface to this device working and RandyT is willing to work with them (that is awesome), but as of yet nothing has come of if - that I can find.  So Windows it is for now.

one rephrasing of a question:

if I have plenty of button inputs from getting the GPwiz's - are there any reasons to go with the opti-pac?

Yes, specifically, no way to hook a trackball to a GPWiz49. Apples and Oranges - GPWiz49 equals gamepad hack, Opti-Pac equals mouse hack.

... oops - I should have clarified - no you are correct sir I may not hook up a trackball to gp-wiz49 !  But if I'm running 49 way sticks, and I go with one gp-wiz49 eco per stick (an obvious choice IMO) that means I will get 23 additional button inputs per gp-wiz49 (if I go w/ 4 sticks that's 92 buttons ) which is more than enough buttons - so with that in mind - it seems that the Opti pac is overkill with the additional buttons... also:

Tiger-Heli, I re-read the section on your controls page about the optical interfaces, as you suggested, and it seems that basically it comes down between Oscar's USB mouse i/f and the opti-pac.  As far as I can tell through googling/etc. - Oscar's stuff is unavailable.

So if I found a couple USB mice that had different USB IDs (suggestions?) to hack would that be a comparable substitution for the Oscar product?  Or, I suppose try plugging them in to different USB pairs like krick suggested.


Thanks again,
Rock

[Tiger-Heli]

... oops - I should have clarified - no you are correct sir I may not hook up a trackball to gp-wiz49 !  But if I'm running 49 way sticks, and I go with one gp-wiz49 eco per stick (an obvious choice IMO) that means I will get 23 additional button inputs per gp-wiz49 (if I go w/ 4 sticks that's 92 buttons ) which is more than enough buttons - so with that in mind - it seems that the Opti pac is overkill with the additional buttons... also:

No, I understand exactly what you meant about buttons and the GPWiz49.  I think you are confusing an I-PAC and an Opti-Pac.

The Opti-Pac only adds four buttons (left and right for each trackball/mouse input), so it's hardly overkill from a buttons standpoint.  Now whether it's overkill from a price/functionality standpoint you have to decide for yourself, although I cover this, both in the link above and at http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/main.htm#OSCAR_USB_Mouse_Interfaces_vs._Opti-PAC
BTW, see www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/ for the frames version of the page with a left-side index.

As far as I can tell through googling/etc. - Oscar's stuff is unavailable.

AFAIK, OSCAR closed his site temporarily b/c his day-job got busier.  You could try shooting him a PM or E-mail (might take him a while to answer), and if he still has any of the interfaces, I think he would be glad to help you out.

So if I found a couple USB mice that had different USB IDs (suggestions?) to hack would that be a comparable substitution for the Oscar product?

Sure, the only thing about the OSCAR product was the hard work was already done so you didn't have to solder.  See Note 49 from my comparison table:
http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/main.htm#49, where I have links to threads where Oscar explains how to hack them and others also explain this.  (OSCAR recommends Belkin or Kensington and dislikes Logitech or Microsoft, so I guess that's your suggestions.)

  Or, I suppose try plugging them in to different USB pairs like krick suggested.

Just two things in closing:

That is an either or option - i.e. you can either use mice from different manufacturers, or use the same mice plugged into different pairs.

And this only matters if the computer might be re-booted with both trackballs connected. . . (I.e. if you had a swappable control panel, you could plug the left trackball in first and the right one in second each time and MAME would never get confused, even if they went into the same hub.)