To Linux or Not To Linux

[JohnW]

(Or, .... Linux vs. Windows)

OK, first post....(everyone has to start somewhere.) Our family has decided to take on the project of building a cabinet as part of a larger Playroom project; the kids are excited, and I'm doing a lot of reading to come up to speed as quickly as possible. Figured the first step is to get comfortable with the software, since wood and paint will be a lot more straightforward.

The first question I'm faced with is which OS to choose. I'm very familiar with the Windows world, but am intriqued with Linux. Doing a search of the boards here, I've come up with the following set of pros and cons.

Linux Pros over Windows

• 1. Cost. Windows adds about $100 to the cost of the cabinet; Linux is free.
  
  
• 2. Boot Time. Linux is apparently much faster to boot, whereas Windows does all sorts of things on startup.
  
  
• 3. Less Hardware. Linux does not require nearly as much processor as Windows (especially later versions of Windows); thus it can run on a slower CPU and with less storage space.
  
  
• 4. Flash Disk Option. I read somewhere (can't remember now) that is is possible to set up Linux and MAME and the ROMs on a flash memory disk, and avoid a hard drive altogether. This might save some money; it would certainly make for an interesting alternative to just plug in a flash card into my main machine for updates, then return it to the cabinet.
  

Linux Cons

• 1. Complexity. Everything I've read suggests there is a steep learning curve to Linux. Apparently you even need to compile your own version of stuff; since I've never used Linux I don't have a good handle on how much of a barrier this is.
  
  
• 2. Inavailability of some tools. Some of the supporting software for MAME does not have a Linux port.
  
  
• 3. Limited to the older games. Most new games are written on Windows, and not on Linux; so to play these new games requires not only Windows, but also a rather powerful machine. (Note that on the Dell website, the "gaming" machines are always towards the high end.
  
  
• 4. Getting Drivers. Drives for sound cards, monitors may be a challenge to find.
  

Neutral

• 1. Display speed. From what I've read thus far, there is no real advantage for either OS.
  

Does this list sound accurate? Have I missed anything?

Since our project will aim at the older games, I'm sorely tempted to try Linux. But the complexity gives me pause.

Appreciate any comments/wisdom/experience you all can share. Thanks!

JohnW

[delta88]

ehh.. windoze is free as well.....

[whammoed]

I don't notice a big difference in boot time between windows and linux...however I do use linux.  I wanted to use advmame while keeping 3 different mouse devices separate and unique so linux was the logical choice for me.  I love it for mame.  Here is a page I put together on the subject if you decide to go that way:
http://web.tampabay.rr.com/whammoed/whammocade/software.htm

[lokki]

If you are planning on using mame, be aware that some games are much slower under linux (and mac for that mattter) than in windows. some of the CPU emulation has dynamic recompilers, but most of these are only available under windows.

Alot of the pros you mention for Linux also apply for DOS, the difference being that it may be harder to run DOS on newer hardware (difficult to get sound drivers).

[elvis]

Linux Cons

• 4. Getting Drivers. Drives for sound cards, monitors may be a challenge to find.
  

Firstly, congratulations on a very well thought out and researched post.  And secondly, well done at keeping it objective.  I find a lot of Windows vs Linux threads in this place seem to degenerate into blatant fanboyism, which is regrettable.

Just on the point you quoted above: linux drivers are quite diverse these days.  Almost any motherboard, soundcard or monitor you can find is supported natively by the linux kernel.  No need to download separate drivers ala Windows.   The most recent releases of the 2.6 kernel come bundled with:

1) ALSA (Advanced Linux Sound Architecture): Drivers for any soundcard you could think of, including onboard AC'97 which seems to be bunded with any board you buy new these days.   Sound support simply is not an issue under Linux.  It works fine, and generally does straight out of the box thanks to kernel-level support.  I've even had boards with sound chips that required driver installation and rebooting in windows to make work, which simply worked without configuration under Linux.

2) Native IDE/SATA/AGP/chipset support for Intel, VIA, Nvidia, SiS and new ATi motherboards.  That includes onboard hard disk controllers, network cards, bus controllers, etc.  Again, out of the box support.  No drivers needed.

When it comes to video and linux, it is recommended you stick with devices that are supported (generally, these are listed on project websites like http://x.org/X11R6.8.2/doc/RELNOTES3.html and http://www.arava.co.il/matan/svgalib/ ).

Generally speaking, almost any video card will have 2D accelleration under X windows with the built-in open source drivers.  If you are looking to use SVGALib or the kernel framebuffer drivers instead, then I'd be aiming for Nvidia or ATi hardware.  But again, the two of these cover 99% of the add-in video card market currently.

Some other points: Linux doesn't necessarily boot faster.  It certainly can, if you use a nice cut down distro like Slackware, Debian or Gentoo.  The downside here is the complexity of running such distros if you are fairly new to Linux.  RedHat/Fedora, SuSE and Mandrake are all much friendlier distros, but add much bloat in their attempt to cover all bases, slowing them down greatly.  Making blanket statements about Linux is difficult to do, when there are so many different distributions out there.

Which brings me to the negative: Linux is not point-and-click easy to use.  Depending on what you want to do, it may involve some custom configration.  Whammoed's page (linked above in his post) is an excellent resource for such things.  If you are not using X-Windows/SDL and choose the FBdev/SVGALib route, things can require some compiling of software and custom startup files, which do scare some folks away.

Another great resource is EasyMAMECab:
http://easymamecab.mameworld.net/html/linux.htm

Like Whammoed's, some great step-by-step instructions on how to make things work.

As for the speed comment: I don't find Linux slower than Windows in terms of playable games.  What I find is under Linux some games don't get super high framerates.  ie: I might get 900 FPS max in Galaga under Windows, but only 600 FPS max under Linux/SDL.  However with games that are 70 FPS under windows, I'll see the same under Linux.  To me, that is a limitation of the blitter output, and not the actual engine.  So no, Linux is not truly "slower" at playing games than Windows is.  On identical hardware it can't get the same stupidly high framerates, but you don't need 900 FPS to play a game.

You mention you've never used Linux.  If you really aren't the sort of person who enjoys "tinkering under the hood" of your software, then it's not for you.  Windows is nice in it's point-and-click simplicity for people who have better things to do with their time.  For me personally, I use Linux on everything at home and work.   From my desktop (where I'm typing this from now) to the servers I admin to my arcade machines to my home theatre system.  So setting up a linux cabinet isn't a huge issue.  For someone who's never used it, things will get frustrating.

The beauty of it however is that it's free.  Try it out and see what you think.  If you don't like it, you haven't wasted any money, and can always fall back to Windows.

[whammoed]

If you are planning on using mame, be aware that some games are much slower under linux (and mac for that mattter) than in windows. some of the CPU emulation has dynamic recompilers, but most of these are only available under windows.

Alot of the pros you mention for Linux also apply for DOS, the difference being that it may be harder to run DOS on newer hardware (difficult to get sound drivers).

I haven't heard that one before.  Can you provide a reference link or perhaps some specific games that are like this?  I would be curious to test this out.  (not that it matters in my case, I run more recent hardware so the games that are playable I can play and the ones that aren't, there isn't hardware available yet to play them)

[Dire Radiant]

I'd love to use Linux in my cab just to have an excuse to learn about Linux. Unfortunately the deal breaker for me is having to do without ZiNc.

[TOK]

I experimented with using Mandrake 9 on the computer that went in my cabinet, but ultimately went with XP. Here's how it went for me...

Mandrake didn't boot faster than Windows, in fact it booted much slower than XP with all the unnecessary Services disabled. I have my XP down to about 35 seconds on a 2ghz P4. Linux also takes a long time to shut down, going through a list of things very similar to a machine booting up.

Once in MAME, I found that game performance was pretty much the same. This was a bit of a dissapointment.

I had trouble getting the drivers for my video card (GeForce 3 w/TV out) to work in Linux. The default Mandrake drivers worked with a PC monitor, but the OpenGL stuff was really slow. I wanted the TV out feature, so I struggled to get the Beta drivers from NVidia working without any success. I'm not blaming Linux for this, the process is just very different from Windows, and even following the step-by-step tutorial on the NVidia page, I couldn't get it to work.

Ultimately, I chose XP because dealing with Linux was one more hurdle in the way of getting my cab done. I'm familiar with Windows, and it's well supported. Someone with Linux experience could probably cut the boot times down, but finding Linux no faster at MAME than XP kind of negated the need.
I still have Mandrake dual booting with Windows on one of my desktops, but I seldom use it. My take on Linux is that it was probably great when 98 and ME were out, because they really weren't very robust. 2000 and XP are very reliable in comparison. Maybe not as reliable as a well set up Linux machine, but good enough, particularly for a MAME cab.

[Lilwolf]

Wasn't Zinc originally writtin for Linux... I believe it has better support for linux.

[lcddream]

i experimented with linux on my cocktail cab. everything was going well until i tried to rotate my display using nvidia driver...180 degrees...couldn't figure it out for the life of me, that's where my tale ends...running xp now.

the only thing i will warn you of is if you install linux and then try to go back to xp, you will have to use dos or a windows start up disk to reset the mbr(master boot record) took me days to figure this out...pissed me off quite frankly...couldn't understand why the hell formatting the drive didnt get rid of linux completly...seems insidious!

or i'm dumb...

[elvis]

I'd love to use Linux in my cab just to have an excuse to learn about Linux. Unfortunately the deal breaker for me is having to do without ZiNc.

There is most certainly a ZiNc port for Linux.  With both SDL and OpenGL output.  I use it on a regular basis myself.

Now you've got no excuse to not try Linux.

[elvis]

the only thing i will warn you of is if you install linux and then try to go back to xp, you will have to use dos or a windows start up disk to reset the mbr(master boot record) took me days to figure this out...pissed me off quite frankly...couldn't understand why the hell formatting the drive didnt get rid of linux completly...seems insidious!

or i'm dumb...

Formatting a drive does not touch the MBR. That is a well known standard, and certainly nothing new.  The Master Boot Record is a special part of the disk that no standard formatter may touch.  Generally speaking the only time it is written to is when an operating system forces it's bootloader program into the area.

When a system boots, it is "dumb".  It doesn't know anything about drivers, hard disks, ide/sata/scsi controllers, etc.  So how does it boot if it doesn't even know where everything should live?

The BIOS knows only one thing about a hard disk: where the MBR is.  A tiny amount of information lives there, which is just enough to tell the hardware where the next partition with valid boot information lives, how to get there, and how to read what's on it.

If you want to wipe an MBR, you need to do one of the following:

1) Overwrite it with new information from another bootloader.

2) Do a complete zero of your hard disk.  Generally speaking, only tools supplied by the harddisk manufacturer can do this correctly.  Ultimate Boot CD has such tools, and is free:
http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/

When installing Linux, it gives you the option of whether or not you want to write one of the two most common bootloaders (GRUB or LILO) to the MBR (or any other part of the disk, if you already have a bootloader that you don't want to kill off).  With Windows, you have no choice.  The bootloader is written whether you like it or not.  Now THAT'S what I call insidious!

If you want to reset a bootloader to the default Windows one, your choices are:

1) Boot from an MSDOS boot floppy or other bootable device (CDROM, USB disk-key, etc) with the windows "fdisk.exe" program on the disk.  When at the prompt, type "fdisk /mbr".  This is your only choice for Win95/98/Me, and one of your choices for Win2K/XP.

2) Win2K/XP only: Boot from your original Windows 2000 or Windows XP CDROM.  When prompted, go into a recovery console.  Choose the partition with Windows installed, and then type at the prompt:

"fixmbr" - to repair just the master boot record:
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/windows/xp/all/proddocs/en-us/bootcons_fixmbr.mspx

"fixboot" - to write an entirely new bootsector with updated partition map:
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/windows/xp/all/proddocs/en-us/bootcons_fixboot.mspx

All traces of the Linux boot loader will be wiped.

This is well documented.  Which brings me to my next point: if you want to play with Linux, I very seriously recommend that you read a lot of documentation.  The documentation for various parts of Linux is superb.  99.99% of all cases where people break something or can't figure out what to do are simply because they refuse to read the documentation!

Considering someone has taken the time do write it, and supply it free with the OS, you'd think people would read it.  I see people pay $50 for the "For Dummies" books, yet still refuse to read FREE documentation supplied with the software!  Insanity!

As we Linux geeks like to say: RTFM.  If you can't find TFM, then ask, and we'll happily show you where it is.  For most software under linux, the man (manual) pages will tell you what to do.  Simply type "man <softwarename>" or "man <configfile>" at the prompt.  eg: To lean how to configure GRUB, type "man grub" or "man grub.conf".  Easy as that.

[lokki]

If you are planning on using mame, be aware that some games are much slower under linux (and mac for that mattter) than in windows. some of the CPU emulation has dynamic recompilers, but most of these are only available under windows.

I haven't heard that one before.

[Dire Radiant]

Damn! hoisted by my own petard! Now I have to do it or face ridicule! So the next logical question is "Which distro for running emulators in general?" I know Whammoed likes Gentoo but perhaps you'd like to tell us why that rather than any of the others. I have actually tried Linux before (Libranet) but after a couple of trips to dependancy hell I ran away like my butt was on fire.

[elvis]

My favourite distros are the ones where you have the greatest control.  Slackware, Debain and Gentoo are right up there.  Of the three, Slackware isthe easiest to install and configure, but probably the hardest to upgrade on the fly.  That's not a bad thing, however.  As generally for a MAME box, you just want to get the thing working and be done with it.

[Dire Radiant]

Yeah but I know me. Once I start tinkering with it I'll have to make ALL of it work and end up with another box with linux on it so I can play with it.

[elvis]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[screaming]

My favourite distros are the ones where you have the greatest control.  Slackware, Debain and Gentoo are right up there.  Of the three, Slackware isthe easiest to install and configure, but probably the hardest to upgrade on the fly.  That's not a bad thing, however.  As generally for a MAME box, you just want to get the thing working and be done with it.

  There are two general types of users getting into Linux right now:  Those that want to "try out" Linux, and those that want to "play with" Linux.

  "Try out" people will probably want to stick to the candy-distros: RedHat/Fedora, Mandrake, Lindows, and OSX (technically BSD, but "same thing"). These distributions will offer more hand-holding and coaxing through the rough parts at the expense of performance and bloat. You'll have a much easier time installing, configuring, and optimizing one of these distros, but it will be a lot harder getting the last 20% of performance gains (80/20 rule) because the GUIs will only take you so far.

  "Play with" people will probably want to go for the more hands-on roll-you-own type distros like Gentoo (my fav), Slackware, Debian, and Free/OpenBSD (again, BSD, but "same thing" for the sake of this post). These distros offer a lot of helpful people and documentation to guide you through the rough parts, but you need to implement the fix yourself and most likely via keyboard and not through the mouse  

  Gentoo is specifically my favorite because you start off with a very base (clean) install of Linux, but you also get the convenience of a central repository of known-working applications all custom compiled for your architecture/settings.  Gentoo is also a lot closer to "the edge" of technology than the others in this category, at least of a couple years ago (when "potato" was still very much in beta), which means you'll have an easier time finding and installing working drivers and applications that have the features you're looking for.

  You'll learn a lot about computers and a lot about Linux if you go with a distribution like Gentoo, but mostly because you're stumbling along the way and reading about how to get back up.

  In my opinion, Gentoo is more hands-on than the others listed here.  A good middle-of-the-road distribution could possibly be Slackware, and then Mandrake or Lindows (I've never played with Lindows) for the most user-friendly.

  DistroWatch is a good place to learn about all the different linux distributions out there but it's easy to get overwhelmed with all the choices.  LinuxISO.org is a good place to download CD images of some of the more popular ditros out there.

-sab

[Dire Radiant]

I think I'm going to give Gentoo a shot. Should I go with the Universal installer or get the minimal installer and build the system component by component? I'm thinking that I'd learn a lot going with the minimal install but I may end up getting so frustrated with it that I'd give up. Just how difficult is it to build on that minimal install?

[screaming]

I think I'm going to give Gentoo a shot. Should I go with the Universal installer or get the minimal installer and build the system component by component? I'm thinking that I'd learn a lot going with the minimal install but I may end up getting so frustrated with it that I'd give up. Just how difficult is it to build on that minimal install?

  Starting with a "Stage 2" install is probably the best of both worlds.  You don't have to deal with the tedious part of bootstrapping your system and you still get the benefit of doing a pretty good custom install.   You still might get frustrated though, but when you do, just think of all the cool stuff you're learning!

-sab

[Dire Radiant]

Gotcha. Gentoo on it's way. Thank God for broadband. Expect to have your brains picked mercilessly!

[Quarters]

If your happy with advancemame and advancemenu then go for a Linux box. I prefer debian as a distro. You could also use free bsd unix for this. If you want boot speed you can compile your own stripped down kernel and end up with a lightning quick mame box. Having said all that I use windows in my MAME cab. I like to play with different front ends etc. The software available for unix/linux is just too limited for me.

[JohnW]

I REALLY appreciate all the response to my question. Very, very helpful indeed. I figure I ought to come back with a revision of my initial comparision based on what you all are saying, and try to summarize a bit. Apologies if I've misrepresented anyone; there was a lot to digest.

------------------
Linux Pros (over Windows)

   1. Cost. Windows adds about $100 to the cost; Linux is free. (delta, I'm afraid you lost me.  )

   2. Less Hardware. I wrote "Linux does not require nearly as much processor as Windows (especially later versions of Windows); thus it can run on a slower CPU and with less storage space." No one argued with this thus far, although the Speed discussion may be a factor here.

Linux Cons

   1. Complexity. Elvis notes that it may require custom configuration, compilations and custom startup files;--there is a learning curve. Lilwolf writes that Linux is getting pretty close to the ease of Windows, but the problem is that people are not used to it yet. lcddream says his showstopper was trying to figure out the 180 degree rotation. There was some discussion about the bootloader, which elvis concluded by saying the documentation for Linux is out there and superb. (I'm leaving Complexity as a "con", and indeed some of these messages in the thread serve as great illustrations, but it does appear that there are good resources out there.)

   2. Limited to the older games. Most new games are written on Windows. (No one disagreed with me on this one.)

Neutral

   1. Boot time. No noticable difference, says (Whammoed). You can get a faster boot with a cut-down Linux says (elvis), but it is also true that you can tweak Windows a lot, too. Tok found Linux to be slower both in boot and shut-down. Quarters says you can compile your own stripped-down kernel for lightening fast. I'm moving this one to "neutral", but realize there is room for debate here.

   2. Getting Drivers. Elvis writes "almost any motherboard, soundcard or monitor you can find is supported natively by the linux kernel.  No need to download separate divers ala Windows." But TOK wrote that he had trouble with his GeForce video card; but my impression is that the Complexity issue was more the problem, rather than being a limitation of Linux itself. I'm moving this to "neutral", but again, I understand there can be issues with this.

   3. Speed. There was some discussion on speed. lokki suggests that some games are much slower on Linux. elvis writes that higher-demanding games do have a slower framerate, but feels it is "blitter output", not the "engine". (I fear that I don't understand the distinction). TOK wrote that he did not see a difference in performance between the two systems. Quarter had the "strip it down and compile your own to get lightening fast" comment. I guess I'll leave this in the "neutral" column for now.

   4. Flash Disk Option. Lilwolf deflated my bubble with the information that there is a total number of writes before flash cards go bad. Oh well. So I'm moving it to "neutral", though "irrelevant" might be more appropriate.

   5. Inavailability of some tools. One poster suggested ZiNc was not ported, another said "sure it is". Quarter indicated that linux is too limited in front ends, and therefore uses Windows. I moved this under "Neutral" based on the ZiNc discussion, but perhaps I should have left it as a "Linux Con"?

Resources mentioned:

   1. Whammoed: Notes on setting up Advance MAME and Menu to run on Gentoo Linux. http://web.tampabay.rr.com/whammoed/whammocade/software.htm

   2. Elvis: Linux step-by-step setup resource. http://easymamecab.mameworld.net/html/linux.htm

   3. Screaming: Learn about different linux distros at distrowatch.com, download CD images from LinuxISO.org.

Several messages talked about which Linus to use.

   a. elvis prefers Slackware, Debain and Gentoo; considering having "greatest control" to be important.

   b. screaming says the "candy"-distros (RedHat/Fedora, Mandrake, Lindows, OSX) are better for trying it out; the ones in elvis' list are more for people who want to tweak it. His favorite is Gentoo, but as I read I heard this phrase in the back of my mind...."Kids, don't try this at home".

   c. Quarters likes debian.

So what I'm left with... at this point seems to be mainly a Cost vs Complexity issue. And I'm seeing that whereas "complexity" is a burden to some, to others is represents Great Opportunity, in that you can make changes to the system. I can see how that would be attractive.

I'll keep watching this thread--this has been really great--and if I do decide to go with Linux, I will be echoing Dire Radiant's "Expect to have your brains picked mercilessly!"!

Thanks, and may you all have a good week!

[SirPoonga]

In the past I was running linux on my arcae to work on controls.dat.  I might do that again when I get  pc for the arcade again.  The problem is no good frontend for cabinets.  Or at least very limited in choices.

[screaming]

JohnW,

  Great job on keeping control of the thread! I have a couple clarifications for your analysis though:

Less Hardware. I wrote "Linux does not require nearly as much processor as Windows (especially later versions of Windows); thus it can run on a slower CPU and with less storage space." No one argued with this thus far, although the Speed discussion may be a factor here.

  In my opinion, this is more of a myth that started way before people really started using Linux as a desktop. The reason Linux runs faster is because without XWin (the GUI part) it's just a glorified DOS box, relatively speaking. If you take Linux and add a mouse-driven GUI and all the other processes that no one thinks about on a desktop machine like kudzu (checks for new hardware), integrated file viewer and file browser (like, thumbnails in Windows Explorer) and power management (press the power button for a graceful shutdown, for example).

  It's still true but it's not as simple any more.  With Linux you get many many more choices than you do with Windows.  With any one of those processes on Linux, you can decide if you want to run them or not (why do you need to automatically detect new hardware when you know you're not going to add anything to it, like on a cab?) and if there's a new program out there that runs faster, you can replace it. You can't really do that with Windows.

Limited to the older games. Most new games are written on Windows. (No one disagreed with me on this one.)

  This is true, but it's not a hard-and-fast rule like it used to be especially with OSX around.

Speed. There was some discussion on speed. lokki suggests that some games are much slower on Linux. elvis writes that higher-demanding games do have a slower framerate, but feels it is "blitter output", not the "engine". (I fear that I don't understand the distinction).

  I'm going to guess and say that by "blitter output" he means the driver and by "engine" he means the game engine. For hardware manufacturers, driver support for Linux is secondary to driver support for Windows. With manufacturers pumping out graphics cards every other month or so these days, it seems they don't have much time for the Linux crowd. That leaves the onus up to the linux community to develop/optimize drivers, and they don't neccessarily have access to all the low-level functionality of that graphics card, leaving the driver less than optimized.

So what I'm left with... at this point seems to be mainly a Cost vs Complexity issue. And I'm seeing that whereas "complexity" is a burden to some, to others is represents Great Opportunity, in that you can make changes to the system. I can see how that would be attractive.

  In the context of a "standard" arcade cabinet, you're right on.  If you can take the time and patience to install and optimize your Linux installation and are not planning on running the latest and greatest PC games, it's the way to go.  Otherwise, if you don't mind spending the $100 and have a faster PC, Windows will save you headaches and time.

*shrug*

-sab

[SirPoonga]

[monkeybomb]

I think this on topic enough, sorry if it is not.

I'm never going to pay for XP and I'm tired of stealing it (I realize I pirate ROMs but TO ME it is different).  You guys have convinced me it is at the very least, good enough.

First off what should I pay for Linux.  I know it's free but I don't want to deal with bitorrent and downloading ISOs.  I want a copy just mailed to me, that I can put in and easily install.

What is the best package for emulatoin, ease of setup and use.

Is there a petium vs athlon difference?  Not to start a debate on that, my question is simply - Is the version of Linux that you reccomend intended to be used with one or the other?

Can I make a Linux box idiot proof?  Let me put this in context - I am setting up systems for a few friends and I don't wat to have to do it over for them all the time.  I want them to start it, play games and turn it off - nothing more.

[Grasshopper]

What I want is an OS that is lean, fast, and relatively bug free and I don't mind having to use a command line.

I don't think a GUI is really needed for emulation or embedded applications such as a MAME cab. The thing that particularly annoys me about Windows (all versions) is that you can't disengage it from it's GUI.

MSDOS is becoming increasingly impractical because most modern input devices are based on USB technology.

What I'm really after is essentially MSDOS with support for USB (including HID devices), modern filesystems, and modern sound and graphics cards. I was thinking that maybe a cut down version of Linux would fit my requirements but so far I've been put off by the steep learning curve.

[SirPoonga]

What I'm really after is essentially MSDOS with support for USB (including HID devices), modern filesystems, and modern sound and graphics cards. I was thinking that maybe a cut down version of Linux would fit my requirements but so far I've been put off by the steep learning curve.

My mobo has USB emulation for dos.

[monkeybomb]

Thanks a ton Sir Poonga,

I tried a knoppix once and I liked it.  It was the fastest I ever surfed.  But I was very frustrated with it not being on the hard drive. 

Mankdrake is on its way.

[NeeBick]

I know I am bit late to the thread but just thought I'd throw my opinion. 

I've been using Ubuntu on my testbed and am very impressed with it.  It is based on Debian so you get the wonderful apt-get (basically type "apt-get install xmame" and you got it) along with a gui version that lets you browse a huge list of binaries avaible for the os.  Oh yeah ubuntu ships you a disc for free also 

On the point of speed.  The great thing about Linux is you can strip it down to near nothing.  Look at DSL Linux it is only 50mb with a gui.  I would suggest using a less intensive windows manager like Blackbox or xfce.  They use less resources and simplify interfacing to a right click.

I also like Linux since I can make my arcade cab double as a extremely stable and reliable network media server.

[elvis]

What I'm really after is essentially MSDOS with support for USB (including HID devices), modern filesystems, and modern sound and graphics cards. I was thinking that maybe a cut down version of Linux would fit my requirements but so far I've been put off by the steep learning curve.

The Linux 2.6 kernel has FULL USB/HID support.  That means true USB joystick input (analogue and digital) for real game devices, as well as force feedback support and built in support for a number of popular devices (joysticks, gamepads, wheels, etc).  I personally have used a number of wheels, digital gamepads, analogue joysticks and force feedback devices on my Linux boxes without any dramas.

USB support in DOS is nothing more than USB->PS/2 keyboard and mouse emulation.  You won't get true USB gamepad support, so the newer USB control devices from Ultimarc and GGG won't work under DOS.  That's fine if you want just simple digital inputs using keyboard input devices like the original I-Pac, J-Pac and Keywiz.  But the new A-Pac and GP-Wiz will need something better/newer than DOS.

As I mentioned eariler, there isn't a soundcard I can't get working under Linux with a standard 2.6 kernel install.  With ALSA technology, all of your modern soundcards and AC'97 onboard devices work just fine.

Yes, there is a learning curve.  No doubt about that.  But there is also a tonne of information out there with hints and tips on how to install and configure these devices.  I've been meaning to get my own Linux-centric howto site up and running to complement EasyMAMECab and Whammoed's pages, both of which are an enormous help for Linux/MAME users everywhere.

[whammoed]

If you are planning on using mame, be aware that some games are much slower under linux (and mac for that mattter) than in windows. some of the CPU emulation has dynamic recompilers, but most of these are only available under windows.

I haven't heard that one before.

[elvis]

Well, I was curious enough about this to test it out.  So here is my real world experience on the matter.  I installed windows xp on my cabinet so I could run Killer Instinct (kinst) on both Gentoo Linux 2.6.5-r1 and Windows XP.  Here are the results of running it un-throttled:
WinXP: ~150%
Linux: ~195%
I found Linux to run noticeably faster (both were running mame 0.92)
Of course both ran the game at full speed fine so it really wouldn't matter on this system.  This was my experience on my machine, your mileage may vary.

Blitters and drivers affect performance more than OS.  What where you running on each?

ie: Windows/Radeon drivers/D3D?  Windows/GeForce drivers/ddraw? Linux/Radeon/SVGALib? Linux/X-nvidia-Opensource/SDL?  etc...

These are what will affect your maximum framerates the most on identical hardware.

[whammoed]

Blitters and drivers affect performance more than OS.

[Dire Radiant]

Well I'm on the way to installing Gentoo (waiting for the Portage snapshot to extract ATM) and I have to say one thing. Gentoo's documentation ROCKS! Following the Gentoo handbook is as easy as falling off a log. Everything laid out for you step by step. The guys who wrote that deserve one of those "Plain English" awards.

[Wulfster]

I thought I'd mention that I'm a UNIX developer by trade, and I went with XP on my MAME cabinet.  I had no luck getting my wireless card to work under Linux.

I was really looking forward to being able to use it for both MAME and for other things, but that isn't to be (at least for the moment).

[SirPoonga]

Which wireless card?
I can't find the link right now but there is a distro of linux made specifically for wireless networking.

Maybe PHLAK could help you out too.
www.phlak.org

[Wulfster]

The machine's shutdown right now, so I'm not sure of the model.  It's a US Robotics card though.  I'll look at that distro.  I'm not sure how much effort I want to put into Linux at this point since I'm just finishing it up.  Maybe for a future enhancement.

[Wulfster]

It's a USR 5416.  The driver is supposed to work under Linux using Linuxant DriverLoader (it loads the windows driver).  I bought a license for DriverLoader, but I could never get the card to connect to the network.  As much as it pains me to admit it, setting it up in XP was much easier.