Mamewah runs slow - see Oct 22 post

[Tiger-Heli]

The MAME PC in my cabinet is running Windows 98SE with 512M of memory.

As is my home PC, however, 98 (even SE) has horrible memory management, and I have read many times that performance actually decreases with more than 512M of Memory.

Regarding the video - I previously had a Pentium 200 MMX with on-board video and got better performance in MAME from dropping in a 4M PCI card than from upping the memory (from 48M to 160M)

For those who don't understand those numbers b/c memory is in exponentials of 2:
two 32M chips and two 8M chips = 48 M
two 64M chips and two 16M chips = 160M

We are talking old hardware.

[Chris]

512mb of RAM is overkill, I believe Win98 will only recognize 398mb anyway, the rest is not used.

[IntruderAlert]

So if you are going to run an older version of MAME ( .55 - .70 ) on a P3 600Mhz what would be the best OS and the best amount of RAM to use?

[Chris]

So if you are going to run an older version of MAME ( .55 - .70 ) on a P3 600Mhz what would be the best OS and the best amount of RAM to use?

Based on my own experiences, I would either use DOS or XP... nothing in between.  For DOS I'd top out at 256MB (maybe 384MB with onboard video), for XP I'd use 256 to 512MB.  With on-board video on XP, you should consider 384MB to be a good bottom end to leave room for video.

The question is how does XP run on that motherboard?  For some boards, XP may run more efficiently than 98.  The only real way to tell is to try it out.  My wife's PC is a Celeron 400 laptop running XP SP1 with 192 MB of RAM, and it runs Neo-Geo games like KOF '98 okay (although I think it does frameskip a bit).

--Chris

[captainpotato]

So if you are going to run an older version of MAME ( .55 - .70 ) on a P3 600Mhz what would be the best OS and the best amount of RAM to use?

You could use Linux, if you are willing to learn (Worth the effort, IMO). Either this or DOS would be my suggestion. No more than 256mb RAM would be needed.

If you use Linux, the machine could double as a home server/firewall/streaming media hub if it has a network card.

[PrizLucky]

So if you are going to run an older version of MAME ( .55 - .70 ) on a P3 600Mhz what would be the best OS and the best amount of RAM to use?

I run Windows XP (Pro) on my PII 400 (it has 384MB RAM) and I run MAME .72.

I have ZERO complaints with that setup.

You might want to qualify "Best" .. I like my setup for it's ease and convenience.. I suppose if "Best" meant lowest cost some dos or linux setup with 128-256MB ram would be something to consider.

[IntruderAlert]

My definition of best refers to how well the games will play

[Chris]

DOS is more efficient than anything, but video and sound drivers on an integrated board can be hard to come by.

[IntruderAlert]

I 'll need USB so I guess I'll try XP
If it's not up to snuff I guess I'll be using my P3 600 in my upcoming Jukebox or as a server on my home network.
By the way.. this P3 600 is an HP and I don't believe there is any way to overclock it
or should I even bother?

[krick]

So if you are going to run an older version of MAME ( .55 - .70 ) on a P3 600Mhz what would be the best OS and the best amount of RAM to use?

Based on my own experiences, I would either use DOS or XP... nothing in between.

I would also add Windows 98SE (note the SE version).

[IntruderAlert]

One reason I use 98SE is that MAME doesn't support two trackballs in XP. 

What about a trackball and a spinner?

[krick]

One reason I use 98SE is that MAME doesn't support two trackballs in XP.

[IntruderAlert]

Sounds simpler just to use 98SE

[daywane]

you can still run a track ball and a spinner in xp very EZ
I made this mistake. I bought a track ball (usb)
when it came in I plugged in with out thinking
mouse and track ball worked.
just as the same mouse. There is no game that will use track ball and spinner at same time. so your fine.
USB track ball , PS2 spinner your in like Flinn.

I had some problems with a HP. added a PCI video card. BIOS would not turn off on board video. PC would not shut down checked HP web sight no help . about 100 people were screaming the same thing.

XP fixed this. do not know how but XP just slaps the bios into shape

xp also fixed a  233 MHz PC I went from 95 to 98SE I lost the CD drive controller. worked in dos but win lost the secondary IEEE controller
XP smacked that into shape also

[IntruderAlert]

But shouldn't 98SE be less demanding than XP on the old P3 600?

[PrizLucky]

But shouldn't 98SE be less demanding than XP on the old P3 600?

My Win XP boots up using only 54MB RAM, and it boots up pretty quickly (msconfig'd everything out of the startup, and turned off all the un-needed windows services).  Not all that demanding..  and no BSOD!

[IntruderAlert]

Do you sometimes get the BSOD on your 98SE MAME system krick?

[Tiger-Heli]

Do you sometimes get the BSOD on your 98SE MAME system krick?

I have lots of stuff on my 98SE MAME system and also use Win2K at work.  It wouldn't be that big of a deal in a cab, but it's a lot nicer in 2K/XP.

98SE has a BSOD about once every 6-8 weeks.

Win2K probably does about the same frequency, but it's usually - "Microsoft Word has encountered an error and needs to close.  Click okay to save your current files and close and re-open the application."

Much nicer for using the PC, but bad for MAME either way.

[krick]

I very rarely get BSOD on any of my computers.  Windows 2000 or Windows 98SE.

BSOD are most often caused by poorly written drivers and/or hardware conflicts.

The last BSOD I can remember was on my Windows 2000 machine about 2 years ago.  The driver for my ethernet card had a bug that only surfaced when using WinMX.  It was fixed by using the ethernet driver from the chip manufacturer instead of the one from the card manufacturer.

Whenever I build a system (and before I install the OS) I spend some time booting with a DOS diskette and juggling cards to figure out the IRQ assignments based on what is reported by the BIOS post screen.  Then I draw out a chart showing which slots share IRQs with each other and what IRQs the onboard devices use.  Then I try to make sure that certain devices, like sound cards and ethernet cards do not share with ANYTHING.

Keep in mind that ACPI will hide (or obscure) IRQ sharing in windows.  That doesn't mean that it isn't happening.  You have to look at the IRQ assignment as displayed by the BIOS because that is showing the assignments based on the physical limitations of your motherboard and chipset.

Just a side note, if you need to have a machine that runs 24/7 without restarting, you must use Win2K or XP.  Windows 98SE isn't really stable when left running for long periods of time.  98SE is prone to memory and resouce leaks when run for long periods of time.

98SE is fine for use in my cab because I never leave it running continuously more than a day.

[daywane]

took me a few seconds to figure out what a BSOD is.
I only got that with windows ME
98 SE I used to upgrade my windows ME PC. I tried it out and found the bigest game my cab could run. left it on for 2 weeks. no problems
I went to XP when I started to back up VCR tapes to DVD
98 has a problem with files reaching 10 gig. now all PC's in my house is XP except my 9 year olds. Some of her games need 98

[krick]

98 has a problem with files reaching 10 gig

Actually, FAT32 (what windows 98SE uses) can't handle files larger than 2GB from what I remember.

NTFS (what XP and 2K *can* use) doesn't have this limitation.  I forget how big it can go but I think it's in the terabytes.

[IntruderAlert]

OK, that settles it
I remember now that it was always a good idea to reboot Win9x each day.
I  plan to leave my machine on most of the time so I'll try XP first
I'll just have to look around for the best solution for getting the trackball and spinner to live happily ever after

[DemonBrew]

In addition to trying out some of these suggestions, I think I'm going to try a side-by-side comparison. Once I have the 98SE install done, I'll yank the hard drive and install XP on another one (same mobo, ram, etc).

Not sure when I'll get around to it, but I'll post my results as an FYI for everyone.

As a "scientific control": running MAME and MAMEWAH, same processor, same RAM, same MAME roms tested. No unncessary services / apps will be installed or running (Office, Messenger, etc). Really stripped down OS, dedicated MAME pc.

Only difference between the two will be Win98SE and some MAME version that works nice on one and WinXP and MAME on another.

I'll let everyone know how it turns out.

[Tiger-Heli]

One reason I use 98SE is that MAME doesn't support two trackballs in XP.

But older versions of MAME Analog Plus do support two trackballs in XP.

[IntruderAlert]

Normal installs.

800mhz or less, Mame .55
833-1 ghz, Mame .60
Greater than 1 ghz Mame .70
Greater than 2 ghz current version

Dedicated vertical installs.
500 mhz or less, Mame .55
533-800, Mame .60
833-1ghz Mame .70
greater than 1 ghz = current version.

You can use newer mames on dedicated vertical installs because almost all the REAL CPU hogs are horizontal games. Although there hasn't been anything vertical worth mentioning added to mame since like .70.

You can obviously tune this a little bit, if you are a Mortal Kombat freak trying to get full speed on those on your sub 1ghz system then try .55, .60 and .70. Previous testing has shown me that .70 is the faster MK driver on MOST systems, but .60 and .55 are faster on some systems. In general though newer=slower.

I was thinking of trying MAME Analog+

If you have winXP and want multiple mice, you need to download the XP build of Analog+.

http://www.urebelscum.speedhost.com/faqs.html#win2000limit

But the oldest build for XP with multiple mice support is MameAnalog+ 0.76
49 way support was added in MameAnalog+ 0.77

and we're talking about 600Mhz machines here
 

[daywane]

but he is talking about a spinner and a track ball.
no need for analog Mame. he can have both on any standard Mame with xp
You will not be using both at the same time.
both can be plugged in at same time but as far as I know there is no game for both track ball and spinner,
XP will See both controllers as a single mouse. he can play centipede, hit escape and play tron with out moving anything.
I am only persistant on this becouse I do not want anyone to do what I did.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,24399.0.html
again I hide my self in shame 

[Tiger-Heli]

The earlier post was talking about dual trackballs - i.e. Marble Madness, CABAL

[Tiger-Heli]

Normal installs.

800mhz or less, Mame .55
833-1 ghz, Mame .60
Greater than 1 ghz Mame .70
Greater than 2 ghz current version

Dedicated vertical installs.
500 mhz or less, Mame .55
533-800, Mame .60
833-1ghz Mame .70
greater than 1 ghz = current version.

You can use newer mames on dedicated vertical installs because almost all the REAL CPU hogs are horizontal games. Although there hasn't been anything vertical worth mentioning added to mame since like .70.

You can obviously tune this a little bit, if you are a Mortal Kombat freak trying to get full speed on those on your sub 1ghz system then try .55, .60 and .70. Previous testing has shown me that .70 is the faster MK driver on MOST systems, but .60 and .55 are faster on some systems. In general though newer=slower.

I was thinking of trying MAME Analog+

If you have winXP and want multiple mice, you need to download the XP build of Analog+.

http://www.urebelscum.speedhost.com/faqs.html#win2000limit

But the oldest build for XP with multiple mice support is MameAnalog+ 0.76
49 way support was added in MameAnalog+ 0.77

and we're talking about 600Mhz machines here
 

Two points - if you are using the 49-ways through the GP-Wiz49, then it is just an analog joystick (well not JUST an analog joystick), but you could run it in MAME 0.17.  No need for 49-way support in Analog Plus.

We are talking about 600Mhz machines, but we are also talking about CABAL and Marble Madness, etc.  Not exactly the most CPU-intensive games.  Use Analog Plus for the dual trackball (dual spinner) games (if you plan to play them) and something older for everything else.

[IntruderAlert]

yes, but the oldest XP build with dual trackball support is 0.76
Do you think it will run OK on a P3 600?

[Tiger-Heli]

yes, but the oldest XP build with dual trackball support is 0.76
Do you think it will run OK on a P3 600?

For CABAL or Marble Madness?  Probably.  Read my reply again.

[IntruderAlert]

I'm just trying to make up my mind here Tiger
what's your opinion of just hooking them both up as per daywane's suggestion

[Tiger-Heli]

>I'm just trying to make up my mind here Tiger

I'm just trying to help you out.

>what's your opinion of just hooking them both up as per daywane's suggestion

No problem at all - if you aren't worried about accidentally whacking the Trackball during a Tempest game or the spinner in Golden Tee.  Or if it was convenient you could use the SPDT (??) Switch like oscar show to select them or unplug one when not in use.

I was only trying to point out that if you wanted to use XP, and wanted to play dual trackball games, you could use the correct version of Analog Plus for those games only, and an older MAME for all the other games.

[IntruderAlert]

well.. i guess it's worth a try
thanks as always

[DemonBrew]

Old thread, but finally got around to doing some troubleshooting with this pc. Quick recap (and changes made):

Pentium III 600 mhz, 512 MB RAM
Mame .75
Mamewah frontend
GeForce 4 MX 4000 card with 64MB RAM
Win98SE

When I run Mamewah, *some* games start up fine. Start up means by the time I select a game from the list until the time the game screens appear (credits, opening screens, etc)

Some games when launched from Mamewah either take a very long time or just give me a blank screen. Ending both mame and mamewah in Task Manager doesn't help much. I usually have to press the reset button on the pc. One example is 1941 runs fine from Mamewah, but 1942 locks up.

When I boot Win98, go to command prompt and type: mame 1942, the game loads fine. No slowness at all. Any game from command prompt runs fine.

Is there something in the mamewah config I need to test/change? Should I just try a different frontend?

Mods: this could be moved over to Software Forums now that this doesn't appear to be hardware related. Thnx!

[mccoy178]

You should rename this with mamewah in the title so Minwah will take a look at it.  That grabs his attention pretty good.  Another good title would be:  Minwah, what's up with your program?   lol, im just kidding, but you should put something to that affect in the title.  I just thought you were showing off your computer.

[DemonBrew]

Good idea. Thanks. It does look like a "check out my stuff", especially being such a long thread.

[PetitMorte]

Most of the time when I start a game that goes to a blank black screen, it's because I asked the machine to play a game that my monitor can't handle.  I have an old toshiba monitor that doesn't like whatever resolution vector graphics run at.

What I do when I hit the black screen, is to just hit escape, and I get dropped out of MAME... no rebooting necessary.

And I'm running the latest version of Mame, .100, on a PIII 450.  Some games are too slow to be playable, some games are playable but a tad laggy, but most are just fine, especially the "classic" ones.

[DemonBrew]

I would totally agree - but it seems it's only Mamewah that's the problem. The same rom that "locks up" in Mamewah runs just fine from command line or from AtomicFE.

I try to escape out, nothing happens. Either that or I am too impatient to wait. As I mentioned, even closing Mamewah and Mame in Task Manager doesn't do much.

[Minwah]

Most of the time when I start a game that goes to a blank black screen, it's because I asked the machine to play a game that my monitor can't handle.  I have an old toshiba monitor that doesn't like whatever resolution vector graphics run at.

It could well be the same or similar problem (to your problem DemonBrew).  Make sure you are not using MAME's 'resolution auto' setting (edit \mame\mame.ini).  Try something you know for sure will work - 640x480 is usually a good place to start, you can always tweak it later.

I bet that will fix it...

Edit: just to explain, 'resolution auto' can (& does) pick a different mode depending on the current mode.  So if Mamewah is running in a different resolution to your desktop then MAME is probably picking a different (bad) mode.

[DemonBrew]

Awesome, I'll give that a try tonight. Thanks for the reply. I'm 99% sure it's set to auto now.

Not sure I completely understand. Specifically, if I run a rom from command line, isn't using the mame.ini? If so, wouldn't I have the same problem?

Not trying to doubt the solution - just trying to figure out the "why".

Is it because mame.ini is set to auto and I have mamewah set to 640x480?