Rotary adapter for Happ/Midway 49-way Joystick

[KenToad]

It took about 2 hours to get this wired up (I'm not very fast). 

I made the hookup cable from the rotary switch to the Druin Interface and hooked it up.  I took 5v and Ground from the GP-Wiz 49. 

So, Markrvp, also, since I'm at work and don't have the GPWiz-49 here for reference, not to mention that I'm not all that electronics saavy, where did you get the 5v power source from?  Is there an extra power source or can it just be shared between the joystick and the Druin board?

Thanks,
KenToad

[fl0yd]

It sounds like he took the NL tap on the GP-Wiz, and ran it to the +5 on druin's.

[fl0yd]

Does that mean that I don't have to buy floppy cable connectors for my 49-ways?

[KenToad]

Those look great Mark, are you planning to replace the floppy cable on the 49-Way with the included extra 13-pin adapter? I wasn't too sure if people would use it or not?

Have you given Heavy Barrel a shot yet? That was the second game I fired up after Ikari Warriors.

Ahh, I was wondering Floyd and I thought I saw in the thread that you would be including an extra 13-pin adapter. Does that mean that I don't have to buy floppy cable connectors for my 49-ways? Allllllright, Heavy Barrel, yeah, second on my list as well.

Cheers,
KenToad

Okay, Floyd, so now I see that you udated the package contents pic on the website.  I see two 13 pin connectors, or at least I think I do. 


*Edit*  Sorry, it didn't tell me that you had already posted with the answer. 

Thanks,
KenToad

[markrvp]

Those look great Mark, are you planning to replace the floppy cable on the 49-Way with the included extra 13-pin adapter?

[markrvp]

It sounds like he took the NL tap on the GP-Wiz, and ran it to the +5 on druin's.

That's exactly where I got the 5v for the Druin Board.

[KenToad]

I'm having a hell of a time getting the 22 AWG wires to stay in the crimp on connectors from the pic above.  Do I need a special tool?  I already have a crimper/wire cutter/stripper from the Shack.  I did a search on the topic and only found that Minwah had similar trouble trying to crimp wires into connectors that slipped into a molex.  He mentioned that he didn't have the proper tool and that he ended up crimping with pliers and then soldering to get a secure connection.  Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks in Advance,
KenToad

[Captain_Dingo]

If the wires are too small and are coming out, one trick I know people have used is to strip three times as much wire as you need for the connector.  Fold the bare portion into thirds, then slid it into the connector and crimp away.

I said thirds, but I suppose half or fourths would work too, depending on how much thickness you need to make up.

[KenToad]

If the wires are too small and are coming out, one trick I know people have used is to strip three times as much wire as you need for the connector. Fold the bare portion into thirds, then slid it into the connector and crimp away.

I said thirds, but I suppose half or fourths would work too, depending on how much thickness you need to make up.

Thanks for the suggestion.  The fold over technique sounds fine.  I will try it, and assume it's cool crimping just with a normal crimping tool.

Cheers,
KenToad

[fl0yd]

On mine, I didn't use crimpers due to the small sizes, I used needle nosed pliers.

I do think the folding method would help though.

[JODY]

Order for 2 placed.

[Nailz]

Got mine today, thanks Mark!  Quick shipping and great stuff!

[KenToad]

It took about 2 hours to get this wired up (I'm not very fast). 

I made the hookup cable from the rotary switch to the Druin Interface and hooked it up.  I took 5v and Ground from the GP-Wiz 49.  I wired the CW1 and CCW1 outputs of the Druin board to two inputs on the GP-Wiz 49.  I fired up Ikari Warriors and mapped the controls.  The Incline and Decline are mapped to the two button inputs for CW1 & CCW1.  I also went into Analog Controls (in Ikari Warriors Mame setup) and set the sensitivity to 2%.

Rotary joystick now works like a charm!

Hey Markrvp and Floyd,

I just spent a really long night wiring up my modular two player 49 way with rotary interfaces setup.  I tested it with Ikari Warriors and found that 2% sensitivity seemed not sensitive enough.  I set the sensitivity on six, then seven for awhile.  Sensitivity eight is definitely too high.  Really, it's not working perfectly for me, yet, so I'm wondering if you guys changed any of the other setting in the Analog part of the Mame control panel. 

Also, Floyd, your pinouts for the interface to Druins board are backwards in the sense that, in Druin's instructions, he says that the 13 pin connector should be attached with the plastic covers facing up.  Those 13 pin adaptors are numbered and I followed that numbering, since my Druin's interface board is not numbered.  I ended up having to flip over the 13 pin adaptor, if you understand what I mean, since if you wire according to the numbers on the 13 pin adaptor and then hook it up to Druin's interface with the plastic covered side facing out, it will not work.  This is not really a problem, since the connector easily fits on either way. 

Also, Floyd, maybe you should note on the website that you will need a tiny hex wrench to tighten the set screw that holds the rotary onto the shaft of the joystick.  I've got a friend who has a set of hex wrenches, but probably some people will probably want to just buy a set if they don't have it or can't borrow it.

Maybe I should start a 49-way/rotary adaptor faq thread where everyone can post the analog settings and experiences with these products?  So far, I want to add, I'm very happy with the product.

BTW, Markrvp, I'm impressed if you got all that wiring for your CP done in two hours.  The wiring for my panel took forever and its still not done, just because I've made it modular and haven't hooked up the second GP-Wiz 49 to the second player parallel interface. 

Let the solder flow like rivers.

Cheers,
KenToad

[Tiger-Heli]

I just spent a really long night wiring up my modular two player 49 way with rotary interfaces setup.  I tested it with Ikari Warriors and found that 2% sensitivity seemed not sensitive enough.  I set the sensitivity on six, then seven for awhile.  Sensitivity eight is definitely too high.  Really, it's not working perfectly for me, yet, so I'm wondering if you guys changed any of the other setting in the Analog part of the Mame control panel.

You might need to vary the speed settings also - From the FAQ on Druin's page:
 ***
What settings should I use in the Analog Controls menu for speed/sensitivity?

This will vary between games, and may also vary depending on computer speed and keyboard encoders used, how they treat the inputs, and which type of joystick is used (Happ or LS30 yellow), etc.  With my 1.7GHz AMD processor and an IPac with the Happ joystick, I have the settings in Ikari Warriors set to Speed  7    Sensitivity  62%    This seems to provide good response with one twist resulting in one on-screen movement, no overshoots or missed rotations.

****

Also, for anyone with this setup, that feels adventurous, I have a bunch of questions for someone to test out -

First - MAME Analog Plus Version 0.74.1 and up added Buttons 4 and 5 for these games.  What this does is add a digital input for rotation (one button press = one rotation increment, regardless of button press duration).

I am sure this works better with the MK64 board, but not sure it works better with Druin's interface.  To test it -

Set the joystick 1 outputs from Druin's interface to the Dial inputs for Player 1, as usual (do not assign anything to Buttons 4 and 5).  Set the joystick 2 outputs from Druin's board to P2 Buttons 4 and 5 and map the dial inputs to NONE.  Set the analog controls settings the same and see which method (Stick one or Stick two) provides better results.

Second test - Mame Analog Plus Version 0.77.1 and up added direct support for the rotary inputs using 12 encoder keys.  The GP-Wiz49 provides enough inputs to support this.  MAME Analog Plus uses the P3 Buttons and Buttons 9 and 10 of P1.  From Urebel's .ini file examples:
 
# this is just an example of using the middle row of the keyboard
# you'll need to select non-conflicting keys/buttons
# to wire your controller unlike this example.
# uncomment and remap as needed

# player 1 rotary
#P3_BUTTON1              "KEYCODE_A"
#P3_BUTTON2              "KEYCODE_S"
#P3_BUTTON3              "KEYCODE_D"
#P3_BUTTON4              "KEYCODE_F"
#P3_BUTTON5              "KEYCODE_G"
#P3_BUTTON6              "KEYCODE_H"
#P3_BUTTON7              "KEYCODE_J"
#P3_BUTTON8              "KEYCODE_K"
#P3_BUTTON9              "KEYCODE_L"
#P3_BUTTON10             "KEYCODE_COLON"
#P1_BUTTON9              "KEYCODE_QUOTE"
#P1_BUTTON10             "KEYCODE_ENTER"

Lilwolf has previously posted that it works fine for Time Soldiers and fails for Ikari and Victory Road (and works for about another half-dozen unknown games).  Could someone hook them up this way and report on which games work and fail?

Final Test - Lilwolf also asked if you could jointly wire the joystick to Druin's board and directly to an encoder.  This way you could use the test two (direct wire) method for the games that support it, and the Druin interface for the board's that didn't.  The reply implied it should work, but I don't think anyone ever tested it.

Thanks in advance!!!!

[KenToad]

I just spent a really long night wiring up my modular two player 49 way with rotary interfaces setup.  I tested it with Ikari Warriors and found that 2% sensitivity seemed not sensitive enough.  I set the sensitivity on six, then seven for awhile.  Sensitivity eight is definitely too high.  Really, it's not working perfectly for me, yet, so I'm wondering if you guys changed any of the other setting in the Analog part of the Mame control panel.

You might need to vary the speed settings also - From the FAQ on Druin's page:
 ***
What settings should I use in the Analog Controls menu for speed/sensitivity?

This will vary between games, and may also vary depending on computer speed and keyboard encoders used, how they treat the inputs, and which type of joystick is used (Happ or LS30 yellow), etc.  With my 1.7GHz AMD processor and an IPac with the Happ joystick, I have the settings in Ikari Warriors set to Speed  7    Sensitivity  62%    This seems to provide good response with one twist resulting in one on-screen movement, no overshoots or missed rotations.

****

Also, for anyone with this setup, that feels adventurous, I have a bunch of questions for someone to test out -

First - MAME Analog Plus Version 0.74.1 and up added Buttons 4 and 5 for these games.  What this does is add a digital input for rotation (one button press = one rotation increment, regardless of button press duration).

I am sure this works better with the MK64 board, but not sure it works better with Druin's interface.  To test it -

Set the joystick 1 outputs from Druin's interface to the Dial inputs for Player 1, as usual (do not assign anything to Buttons 4 and 5).  Set the joystick 2 outputs from Druin's board to P2 Buttons 4 and 5 and map the dial inputs to NONE.  Set the analog controls settings the same and see which method (Stick one or Stick two) provides better results.

First of all, Tiger-Heli, thanks a million for that quote from Druin's faq.  I actually read that and just plumb forgot about it, maybe because it was so late last night and I got really confused since I expected the rotary adapter to just work perfectly after I did all that work .  I messed around a little with those settings and I'm pretty sure that those numbers will not work.  However, I must test to verify, since I can't remember how low I set the digital speed.

Also, as an aside Tiger-Heli, let me just say that you have been one of the most amazingly helpful people on this forum.  I will definitely test out Mame Analog+ tonight or tomorrow with the Druin's board and post the results here.  As for the other tests, I'm just about fed up with wiring to go ahead and splice wires from the druins board to direct inputs on my GP-Wiz 49's.  I may end up doing just that for testing my solder connections, anyway, although they look good and the thing seems to work despite the analog settings issues.  I'll get back to you.  Also, do you have any particular application in mind for the results of these tests or are you just accumulating knowledge ?

Cheers,
KenToad 

[Tiger-Heli]

I messed around a little with those settings and I'm pretty sure that those numbers will not work.  However, I must test to verify, since I can't remember how low I set the digital speed.

I don't expect those settings to work.  I was mainly just pointing out that you probably wanted to play with the Speed as well as the Sensitivity setting.

Also, as an aside Tiger-Heli, let me just say that you have been one of the most amazingly helpful people on this forum.

Thanks.  Although the whole forum is really helpful people so it's nice to be able to give back to it.

I will definitely test out Mame Analog+ tonight or tomorrow with the Druin's board and post the results here.

Thanks!!!

As for the other tests, I'm just about fed up with wiring to go ahead and splice wires from the druins board to direct inputs on my GP-Wiz 49's.

Actually, the initial test would be hooking up the rotary switch to direct inputs on the GP-Wiz49's (not from the Druin's board).  Assuming you didn't solder directly to Druin's board, you might be able to accomplish this by moving the cable from Druin's board to the GP-Wiz49, assuming the pin spacing is the same, which it probably isn't.

Also, do you have any particular application in mind for the results of these tests or are you just accumulating knowledge ?

Primarily, see http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/index.htm.  I am in the process of revising it and the name will change to Arcade Interfaces.  I started adding Gamepad encoders, then 49-way interfaces, then Analog Interfaces, then figured I may as well add in optical interfaces, and rotary interfaces, and (it looks like) LED interfaces.  Will be a MASSIVE revision (about 3/4's done).

All info learned will be shared there (with credit, of course).  I just hate saying "This method might or might not provide better results" or "This works with Time Soldiers and about six other games, but I don't know which ones".

As a secondary issue - way down the road I would like to add a personal way to play rotary joystick games, but will probably get both a GP-Wiz or GP-Wiz49 and a Druin's board then, so I could come up with the data myself at that point, but it is way down the road . . .

[KenToad]

Actually, the initial test would be hooking up the rotary switch to direct inputs on the GP-Wiz49's (not from the Druin's board).  Assuming you didn't solder directly to Druin's board, you might be able to accomplish this by moving the cable from Druin's board to the GP-Wiz49, assuming the pin spacing is the same, which it probably isn't.

I have the max version of the GP- Wiz49, the one with the screw terminals, and I've already crimped all the wires from the rotary interfaces into the 13 pin connectors.  I could probably run some wires from the exposed connector terminals on the druin board to the interface, but I just don't think I will have the energy for that anytime soon.  Maybe next week.   However, you made me remember that I have a keywiz eco2 with the IDE connector pins in my gargantuan CP and could check that one out.  I'll have a look when I get a chance.

Cheers,
KenToad

[Tiger-Heli]

However, you made me remember that I have a keywiz eco2 with the IDE connector pins in my gargantuan CP and could check that one out.  I'll have a look when I get a chance.

Thanks!

[markrvp]

BTW, Markrvp, I'm impressed if you got all that wiring for your CP done in two hours.

[KenToad]

2 hours was just the Rotary adapter. The rest of the panel wiring was a whole other night.

My kit came with the little hex wrench. Did you not get one? Also, which version of the Druin board are you using, the older one or the new one he just came out with?

I'm pretty sure I didn't get that little hex wrench, but I'll check the box again just to be sure.  Also, I think I'm using the new version of the Druin board, since I just ordered it last week or so and it had the new pricing, not really sure how else to tell the difference.  That's still pretty fast to cut, solder and crimp thirteen wires, if you ask me, probably took me 30 - 45 minutes longer, but I'm relatively new to soldering and crimping. 

Cheers,
KenToad

[Tiger-Heli]

Also, I think I'm using the new version of the Druin board, since I just ordered it last week or so and it had the new pricing, not really sure how else to tell the difference.

It was the new board then.  Pics below, new board is smaller with fewer components:

[KenToad]

Yep, I have the new one.  Thanks again, Tiger-Heli.

[fl0yd]

My kit came with the little hex wrench. Did you not get one?

The very first set screws had a larger hex size than I had wrenches for.  In some cases I didn't have a wrench to send with the adapter.  Sorry KenToad.    I think I'll add a 'tools needed' section to the site though.

Also, Floyd, your pinouts for the interface to Druins board are backwards in the sense that, in Druin's instructions, he says that the 13 pin connector should be attached with the plastic covers facing up.  Those 13 pin adaptors are numbered and I followed that numbering, since my Druin's interface board is not numbered.  I ended up having to flip over the 13 pin adaptor, if you understand what I mean, since if you wire according to the numbers on the 13 pin adaptor and then hook it up to Druin's interface with the plastic covered side facing out, it will not work.  This is not really a problem, since the connector easily fits on either way. 

I'll take a look at this. I'll probably add a picture of mine with the connector I supply since Druin's appears to assume you are using the Happ connector which is quite different.

[armax]

got the package in.  Nice job!  This has to be the most versatile joystick out there.  Thanks again Floyd, this upgrade really helped eliminate the need for a modular panel and freed up some dollars for other projects.

[fl0yd]

It's my pleasure, I'm glad I'm finally able to give back to BYOAC.

[Druin]

I can't remember how I came up with my numbering system for the pinouts on the harness, but I wasn't following any conventions. I was using the JST connector (original) but I don't know where pin 1 really is, I just took a picture of the connector and said "THis is what I'm calling pin 1" so I may be backwards.  I was trying to illustrate the mapping from end to end since it's not a 1 to 1 cable and some people wanted to know how to map it. 
I should go through the site info and update/correct things whenever I get a chance. I have a lot of fixing up I could do.

[fl0yd]

I should go through the site info and update/correct things whenever I get a chance

Have you gotten around to this?

[Druin]

I think my chart was right because I found that every pin from 1 through 13 were numbered on my jst connector so that's what I followed when I made my table of pin map info and showed the picture showing where I'm calling pin 1 on the JST.

[jlml]

The "everything panel" that everyone dismisses takes one step closer to reality...

Ok... just to make the ultra in way cool.

How about adding a button to the joystick?

Your already replacing the bottom 1/2 of the shaft.

[fl0yd]

I agree that it would be cool to have a joystick that did it all.

[Kremmit]

You know, the Do-It-All stick is within reach.

You use a hollow-shaft-with-a-plunger-type topfire mechanism, so that twisting isn't a problem for the wires.  Then you use a geared setup to add a rotary switch off-axis, so that it doesn't get in the way of the topfire mechanism.  We'd need a custom 49-way shaft (Franco?), and a custom mounting bracket to hold everything on there.

Here's a pic that (hopefully) illustrates the concept.  The mounting brackets are left off for visual clarity (and becaue I could never draw them myself).  I am Photoshop-Challenged (which I think gets me a handicapped parking pass when I'm in Sillicon Valley), so my apologies if it's not clear.  And thanks to everybody whose images I ganked- I put this Frankenstein's Image together entirely from dead body parts images collected here on BYOAC and fl0yd's page.

[fl0yd]

I agree that that would be possible, but pretty complicated.  I'll see if I can get a photoshop'd mock up of what it would look like with a rotary adapter.

[fl0yd]

I was thinking of a balltop with a button.  The button would be attached to a plunger bar through a hollow shaft joystick.  At the bottom of the plunger would be an optical encoder wheel.  The wheel would need to be able to move enough within the encoder to trigger a switch to detect the plunged action.

In the picture, all parts in red are moving parts.  The encoder wheel and plunger switch will need to move in line with the joystick's shaft.  The parts listing is from Happ's optical rotary assembly.

Please forgive me, I have horrible photo editing skills.

[conseit68]

Floyd...

Take a look at the (2) sticky threads in this forum...maybe we can get our mind together on this?...let me know

[Kremmit]

When I was thinking about this, I considered going the optical route-  optical would be easier & cheaper to implement, I admit.  Instead of expensive gears and an expensive 12-switch- you just need an encoder wheel and a mouse hack. 

If you're going to go optical, why not attach your encoder wheel to the bottom of the shaft directly, and let the plunger push right throough the hole in the center of the encoder wheel?  That way you wouldn't have to worry about the encoder wheel moving up and down inside the optics, or moving the optic board, or any of that.

That said, I still prefer mechanical rotary over optical rotary- that's what 99% of the rotary games used.  Opticals just don't feel right.

[Tiger-Heli]

Kremmit - the main problem I see is that when you move the joystick, you are probably going to bind up those gears, I think, maybe not.  I can probably be done, but not easily.

[fl0yd]

Another option that wouldn't require the plunger to be attached to the enoder wheel would be a method for optical rotary mentioned elsewhere on the boards.  The user used a toothed rubber band attached to a gear on the shaft and a gear on the optical encoder to turn the encoder.  The flexibility of the band allowed for the deflection of the joystick without affecting the rotary function.

I'm not sure if this could be used with a mechanical rotary setup.  The resistance on the 12 position switch just feels like it would be too much.

[KenToad]

Another option that wouldn't require the plunger to be attached to the enoder wheel would be a method for optical rotary mentioned elsewhere on the boards.  The user used a toothed rubber band attached to a gear on the shaft and a gear on the optical encoder to turn the encoder.  The flexibility of the band allowed for the deflection of the joystick without affecting the rotary function.

I'm not sure if this could be used with a mechanical rotary setup.  The resistance on the 12 position switch just feels like it would be too much.

Also, that hack was for a joystick that had a really short throw, the T-stick Plus, if I remember correctly.  It probably wouldn't be so feasible on a 49-way with the 20 degrees of throw it has.

I like the idea of having an analog rotary joystick that could be used as a spinner, as well, not to mention that analog is exactly what official Mame expects for all rotary type games.

Cheers,
KenToad

 

[fl0yd]

not to mention that analog is exactly what official Mame expects for all rotary type games.

Yeah, I've noticed a bit of the doubling effect in Ikari as well.  I think that analog would help with that, but one nice thing about the mechanical switches are the 'stops.'  An analog would be prone to continuing past one movement, and be even more prone to the accidental rotation during frantic gameplay.

[KenToad]

not to mention that analog is exactly what official Mame expects for all rotary type games.

Yeah, I've noticed a bit of the doubling effect in Ikari as well.  I think that analog would help with that, but one nice thing about the mechanical switches are the 'stops.'  An analog would be prone to continuing past one movement, and be even more prone to the accidental rotation during frantic gameplay.

I totally agree.  And I think one day we'll see an improvement in the software handling of games like Ikari Warriors.  That set seems to double the most for me.

Cheers,
KenToad