Rotary adapter for Happ/Midway 49-way Joystick

[fl0yd]

I've been working on an adapter to mate the midway 49-way with the rotary switches used in Happ's rotary joys.

[Tiger-Heli]

How do I mount 1Up's new spider adapter's after this is added?  Just kidding, I think it's a really cool idea.

I'm not in the market, but I'd be interested if I was.

Could you post the below-panel depth of the stick with the adapter mounted?

[Lilwolf]

LOOKS PRETTY SWEET!  I don't have one of the joysticks.. And have a dual snk30 control panel...  (so I wouldn't get one)...

Doesn't mean I'm not IMPRESSED!  GREAT JOB!

[Hoagie_one]

Thats awesome.  Any idea what the end cost might be?  Thats teh deciding factor for many people

[KenToad]

Yeah, I have to agree with Hoagie_one.  I'm very interested, but it all boils down to the price point.  Is it too early to give a hint of the possible hit to the checkbook or maybe one of those scenarios where the more you can sell, the cheaper you can sell it?  Anyway, the design looks great.  The possibilities are really starting to seem limitless.

KenToad

[ddockery]

I'd be interested if the price is reasonable.  Does i give a decent clicking feel when you rotate?

[fl0yd]

     -Could you post the below-panel depth of the stick with the adapter mounted?

I'll take the measurements when I get home.

    -Any idea what the end cost might be?
Not yet, the prototype was a freebie, now I need to get an idea on what the overall costs are going to be.  I'm not sure if I should just sell the sleeve adapter and provide a how-to, or sell the complete unit.  I was hoping to get an idea of interest because this will probably be the deciding factor for me.  The idea of soldering 12 wires onto the switches 1000 times is a bit frightening.

    -Does it give a decent clicking feel when you rotate?
It does, it is the exact switch used in the happ 12-way ikarii style.  Each of the positions has a 'stop' so it clicks at each position.

[Hoagie_one]

If I had to guess, I think $20 would be doable for a complete assembly.  Any more than that and I t hink people would just say skip it.  Even if it was just a kit that youhad to solder yourself, I think $20 would be reasonable...at the most.

[KenToad]

If I had to guess, I think $20 would be doable for a complete assembly. Any more than that and I t hink people would just say skip it. Even if it was just a kit that youhad to solder yourself, I think $20 would be reasonable...at the most.

Yeah, I'd say $20 as well, maybe $35 for two would hit me perfectly.  I don't mind soldering at all, either.  The magic numbers, I guess.  Maybe that's what first attracted me to RandyT's encoders?  He picked the magic numbers.  I'm dreaming of a stick that can do everything.

KenToad

[Hoagie_one]

with this adapter, the 49 way and the gp49, you have a ton of games y ou can play without swapping.  lol

[screaming]

HOLY CRAPOLA!

All I have to ask is WHEN?! 

The idea of soldering 12 wires onto the switches 1000 times is a bit frightening.

  I don't mind doing the soldering/assembling myself if it means I'll get it cheaper

-sab

[Tiger-Heli]

with this adapter, the 49 way and the gp49, you have a ton of games y ou can play without swapping.  lol

Also, the GP-Wiz49 gives you 23 inputs per stick, so you could easily use 12 inputs for the rotary function, 1 for start, 1 for Coin, 1 for Pause/Esc (split between two interfaces), and have 8 left for buttons.  Wire it this way, use MAME Analog Plus, and you don't need Druin's board.

[fl0yd]

with this adapter, the 49 way and the gp49, you have a ton of games y ou can play without swapping.

[Tiger-Heli]

with this adapter, the 49 way and the gp49, you have a ton of games y ou can play without swapping.  lol

Also, the GP-Wiz49 gives you 23 inputs per stick, so you could easily use 12 inputs for the rotary function, 1 for start, 1 for Coin, 1 for Pause/Esc (split between two interfaces), and have 8 left for buttons.  Wire it this way, use MAME Analog Plus, and you don't need Druin's board.

^^^
Now that is an idea I hadn't thought of.  Couldn't it be used to select the mode that the stick was in as well?

As long as you use the mode button or software controls (command-line switching) then yes, you still have 23 buttons and the mode-switching will work.  If you wanted the rotary switch to change modes, then you would lose 8 buttons, but you could use the GP-Wiz49 for the sticks and add one GPWiz or KeyWiz Eco for the buttons.

[brandon]

anyway this would work for the williams style 49-way>?

[Tiger-Heli]

also, how easily could this be made to work with a standard joystick like the comps or supers?  then it could possibly be a cheaper alternative to the standard happs rotary which as of today sells for about $45.

I believe the standard Happs rotary is based on the Happ Super, so probably could be done pretty easily, but not sure you can save any money with it.

[fl0yd]

also, how easily could this be made to work with a standard joystick like the comps or supers?

[fl0yd]

anyway this would work for the williams style 49-way>?

[brandon]

well dont quote me on that.. (wait too late )  its very possible that I could be mistaken.. I have two of those sticks on an Arch Rivals CP that somebody gave me but its in a storage complex across town so I can't test it at the moment.  If it could rotate I'm not sure how that would effect the rubber "spider" that centers the stick.. 

[Flinkly]

they rotate...and the spiders affect nothing.  it has a metal bushing that facilitates ease of rotation between the spider and the stick.  as to if it is possible to create on with a williams, i'm unsure.

[fl0yd]

they rotate...and the spiders affect nothing.

[specfire]

This is my 2nd post ever!

If this modification works, I will buy one, however, here is my concern:

As I understand it, the Midway/Happs 49 way joystick detects the position optically by detecting the position of the base of the joystick shaft.  With the sleeve on the shaft, I think it would alter what position is detected by the joystick.  This may just take some getting used to when in 49 way mode, however, with RandyT's GPWiz49, the other DRS modes probably wouldn't work well at all.

FlOyd, can you comment on how your prototype works in the various DRS modes?

Thanks,

Specfire

[Flinkly]

no, i don't, but the end of the shaft is very small.

[fl0yd]

Could you post the below-panel depth of the stick with the adapter mounted?

The clearance needed under my CP surface with the adapter mounted is 5.25 inches.  If you were to bend the connections of the switch outwards, it may be possible to decrease the overall depth needed by as much as .5 inches.

As I understand it, the Midway/Happs 49 way joystick detects the position optically by detecting the position of the base of the joystick shaft.

Not quite, the shaft actually moves 2 sliders at 90 degree angles to eachother.

[fl0yd]

i'm unaware as to how your assemblies connect to the shaft

This assembly replaces the lower sleeve completely.  It has been milled so that it has 2 different inner diameters.  1 is the diameter of the shaft, the other end is the diameter of the rotary switches post.  Both connections are secured using set screws.

[IntruderAlert]

When you're done maybe you should send one over to Kevin and let him write up a nice review for you at retroblast.com

[Lilwolf]

Ok... just to make the ultra in way cool.

How about adding a button to the joystick?

Your already replacing the bottom 1/2 of the shaft.  Whats the chance you could have the entire shaft replaced (as an option) with a hollow shaft... Then add a button (like those sweet ball top buttons someone was selling (usedelectronics??)

think of it though...

A 49 way with GP49 board for all the modes with a 12 way rotary AND top fire.  It
WOULD be the ULTIMATE joystick out there!

[fl0yd]

Your already replacing the bottom 1/2 of the shaft.

Just to clarify, the only parts that are being replaced are the plastic sleeves.  The shaft itself is not being modified.

That being said, I haven't seen what the ball top firing joys looked like, but I totally agree.  Having 1 stick that can do it all would be fantastic.

[IntruderAlert]

You mean like this one?


http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,22827.0.html

I guess the trigger type wouldn't work well in this application

[mahuti]

The problem with using a trigger stick in this application, is that you can't use the 2 available trigger stick types with the rotary in its current form.

Type 1; Has dangling wires... needs to be restricted. Can't work with a rotary, unless you want a restricted movement on your rotary (bad) or you would need some elaborate sliding wiring harness

Type 2; Has a plunger that hits a plate. The rotary covers the end of the stick where the plunger would exit. Also, the combination of the rotary & the plate would make for a very deep stick.

[specfire]

I'm glad I'm wrong and sorry about assuming that the detection scheme was the same as the P360.

So, put me down for one of the kits.  I would definitely prefer the basic kit vice a completed package.  I can do my own soldering etc.  Just to check though that you would sell the sleeve, armature, and 12-position switch together or would you just sell the sleeve and I would have to order the parts from Happ?  Either way is OK.

Specfire

[fl0yd]

Just to check though that you would sell the sleeve, armature, and 12-position switch together or would you just sell the sleeve and I would have to order the parts from Happ?

[IntruderAlert]

The problem with using a trigger stick in this application, is that you can't use the 2 available trigger stick types with the rotary in its current form.

Type 1; Has dangling wires... needs to be restricted. Can't work with a rotary, unless you want a restricted movement on your rotary (bad) or you would need some elaborate sliding wiring harness

Type 2; Has a plunger that hits a plate. The rotary covers the end of the stick where the plunger would exit. Also, the combination of the rotary & the plate would make for a very deep stick.

I suppose you could use a swivel connector on the wires but the trigger type control is out because the trigger would rotate into the wrong position when you turn it

[2600]

Based on the responses, I have a meeting with the plastics company to make a protoype for the the stabilizers.  Currently the one in the picure is from my Happ Rotary.  I'm not aware of Happ selling them without the whole rotary joystick.

I hope to have some cost estimates and delivery estimates by next week.

Happ part numbers for  the sleeve(96-1012-00) and the set screws (95-8031-00).

[fl0yd]

Happ part numbers for

[fl0yd]

Is there an ETA on this?

[armax]

Are you taking pre-orders?  if so, PLEASE pm me with details.  Great product!

[Tommy Boy]

Hey fl0yd,

In playtesting your prototype, does the 49-way/rotary combo feel any different when using the stick for normal (non-rotary) 4/8/49-way games?

In other words: Does the addition of the rotary capability degrade the sticks performance noticeably in any other mode? By looking at it, it seems possible that one could feel the effects of the stabilizer arm (perhaps by restricting or impeding movement slightly along certain vectors) while using the stick for Donkey Kong, Street Fighter, etc.  Have you noticed this effect?

I'm not saying a tradeoff might not be worth while...

[fl0yd]

I personally can't tell a difference, but I know there are people out there with a much finer sense of touch than me.

It is indistinguishable from my Happ Rotary 8 way if that is any consolation.

[dabone]

bump...


any news on pricing and availability?


Later,
dabone

[fl0yd]

Sorry I was out of town this weekend.

Happ only had 23 of the stabilizer arms in stock.  As a result, once I have the sleeves back from the plastics company, I will only be able to ship 23 initially.

The pricing estimates are:

$25 shipped for 1, or $45 for 2.

[dabone]

Taking orders yet?


Later,
dabone

[fl0yd]

Soon,

I need to get a documentation website setup, and some printed versions to ship with the items.

[Flinkly]

EDIT:

i'm editing to clear the air of a misunderstanding that has no real connection to this thread.

[hyiu]

If possible, after you are settled with all the details, plz post the price, and also the dimension of the whole stick (if comes with a few pics, it will be perfect).

price is a concern, but not my main concern.  My concern is if my CP box is deep enough for it.

Thanks.

[Tiger-Heli]

If possible, after you are settled with all the details, plz post the price, and also the dimension of the whole stick (if comes with a few pics, it will be perfect).

price is a concern, but not my main concern.  My concern is if my CP box is deep enough for it.

Thanks.

Fl0yd said below panel depth was 5.25 to 4.75 in reply #23 in this thread.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,35533.msg311098.html#msg311098

[fl0yd]

Some preliminary documentation can be found here.

I hope to be taking orders via paypal by early next week.

[Hoagie_one]

one more piece that would make this set perfect would be the 13 pin connector.  Someone post links to a company that sells them....on another thread...just the other day.

but i cant find it now.

[armax]

one more piece that would make this set perfect would be the 13 pin connector.

[NY_in_TX]

the harness is part number 95-6971-00

$7.75 according to Happ's site.

http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/rotary_optical_joy_e.htm

great job on kits BTW

[Hoagie_one]

dont need the whole harness, just the end connector.  someone posted a site that sold just those

[NY_in_TX]

dont need the whole harness, just the end connector.  someone posted a site that sold just those

oh, sorry. I had been working with the same parts on my project and  figured it would make it easier for some and plus you could see if Ponyboy can work some of his Happ pricing magic. 

[fl0yd]

I would love to include the 13-pin connector in my kit, but every time I tried to find them online I couldn't.

Could someone please post the link to the connectors(not the happ one) and I'll see about adding them to my kits.

The Happ part number for the non-optical rotary is actually 96-1000-00 and it's $17 just for the wiring harness.  In my opinion, it was just too much to include in the kit when you could just solder them.

[Druin]

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,35318.0.html

From s4tay

The actual JST connectors and pins are:

Cable Connector: H13P-SHF-AA
Connector Pins: SHF-001T-0.8BS
PCB Connector RT Angle: BS13-SHF-1AA

I ordered a few and they are the exact connectors/pins that comes with the LS-30.

[fl0yd]

100 of the 13 wire connectors are on their way.  I'll gladly include them in the kits.

[Hoagie_one]

now its a complete kit.

thats what I'm talkin about.

[fl0yd]

now its a complete kit.

thats what I'm talkin about.

I plan to include 2 of the 13 pin connectors in the kit.

One fits perfectly on druin's, the other fits with 1 slot hanging over on the Midway 49-way joystick.   This way, you don't need to use the unsightly floppy cable hack.

[Hoagie_one]

u=da man

[dabone]

Now, I send money where?


Later,
dabone


 

[fl0yd]

Now, I send money where?

Once the 13 wire connectors arrive (Fed Ex shows 5/12), I plan to begin accepting paypal orders via my paypal account.

[fl0yd]

I have updated my page here, it includes the ordering button for Paypal.

[fl0yd]

In your post, there is no hyperlink assigned to the word, "here"

Heh, sorry about that, I've updated it.

[Lilwolf]

btw, you might want to update your list of games to include Xybot.  Works great with druins board.

Also, you might want to mention that Ikari warriars (and a few others... can't check at the moment) do NOT currently work without it in any way known.... Analog+ mame version has a bug where it looses direction..

[fl0yd]

btw, you might want to update your list of games to include Xybot.

[Kremmit]

The issue revolves around trying to play Ikari without a Druin's.  Analog+ will allow you to play some of the rotary games by connecting the rotary switch on your rotary joystick directly to button inputs on your keyboard encoder.  Unfortunately, it doesn't work on a lot of rotary games, including Ikari.  To use a mechanical rotary stick with those games, a Druin's is the only way to go.

[fl0yd]

It never fails

[KenToad]

Floyd,

  I checked the site, looks great.  I love how you have the installation instructions there with a bunch of photos.  I was a little confused by the thread about how the whole thing actually got put together and what the kit will include.  I'm very interested in purchasing, but I don't have a PayPal account.  Would you accept a money order?

Cheers,

KenToad

[fl0yd]

Would you accept a money order?

I will, but it will certainly increase delivery times.  However, I have no issues with that method as well.

[fl0yd]

All of the necessary parts have arrived, I am now accepting orders here

[dabone]

Done.


Thanks!!!!



Later,
dabone

[fl0yd]

Thanks for the order dabone.

If and when you place an order, would the rest of you mind posting that you have done so here?  I'd like to be sure that I don't miss any paypal notifications.

Thanks,

[armax]

Order placed! 

[markrvp]

Thanks for the order dabone.

If and when you place an order, would the rest of you mind posting that you have done so here?

[RandyT]

All of the necessary parts have arrived, I am now accepting orders here

Stellar job on getting this one together,  Nicely done indeed.


RandyT

[KenToad]

Two of those babies ordered.  Hello Ikari Warriors.  Thanks a lot Floyd.

KenToad

[fl0yd]

Randy, Thanks for the compliments.   

Kentoad,  It's boxed and will be sent out on Monday.

Thanks,

[markrvp]

I ordered mine around midnight on Friday night and I'm holding it in my hand here on Monday.  Wow! Fast shipping. 

Thank you Fl0yd for an ingenius product!

[markrvp]

It took about 2 hours to get this wired up (I'm not very fast).

[fl0yd]

Those look great Mark, are you planning to replace the floppy cable on the 49-Way with the included extra 13-pin adapter?

[KenToad]

Awesome work, Markrvp, my setup is on its way, but I probably won't get anything setup for at least a week.  I'm kind of busy right now and I can't get my gargantuan bartop put together until I get the woodworker to do a little routing for T-molding.  However, thanks for posting your pictures.  Now I can't wait to get my panel setup.

Those look great Mark, are you planning to replace the floppy cable on the 49-Way with the included extra 13-pin adapter? I wasn't too sure if people would use it or not?

Have you given Heavy Barrel a shot yet? That was the second game I fired up after Ikari Warriors.

Ahh, I was wondering Floyd and I thought I saw in the thread that you would be including an extra 13-pin adapter.  Does that mean that I don't have to buy floppy cable connectors for my 49-ways?  Allllllright, Heavy Barrel, yeah, second on my list as well.

Cheers,
KenToad

[KenToad]

It took about 2 hours to get this wired up (I'm not very fast). 

I made the hookup cable from the rotary switch to the Druin Interface and hooked it up.  I took 5v and Ground from the GP-Wiz 49. 

So, Markrvp, also, since I'm at work and don't have the GPWiz-49 here for reference, not to mention that I'm not all that electronics saavy, where did you get the 5v power source from?  Is there an extra power source or can it just be shared between the joystick and the Druin board?

Thanks,
KenToad

[fl0yd]

It sounds like he took the NL tap on the GP-Wiz, and ran it to the +5 on druin's.

[fl0yd]

Does that mean that I don't have to buy floppy cable connectors for my 49-ways?

[KenToad]

Those look great Mark, are you planning to replace the floppy cable on the 49-Way with the included extra 13-pin adapter? I wasn't too sure if people would use it or not?

Have you given Heavy Barrel a shot yet? That was the second game I fired up after Ikari Warriors.

Ahh, I was wondering Floyd and I thought I saw in the thread that you would be including an extra 13-pin adapter. Does that mean that I don't have to buy floppy cable connectors for my 49-ways? Allllllright, Heavy Barrel, yeah, second on my list as well.

Cheers,
KenToad

Okay, Floyd, so now I see that you udated the package contents pic on the website.  I see two 13 pin connectors, or at least I think I do. 


*Edit*  Sorry, it didn't tell me that you had already posted with the answer. 

Thanks,
KenToad

[markrvp]

Those look great Mark, are you planning to replace the floppy cable on the 49-Way with the included extra 13-pin adapter?

[markrvp]

It sounds like he took the NL tap on the GP-Wiz, and ran it to the +5 on druin's.

That's exactly where I got the 5v for the Druin Board.

[KenToad]

I'm having a hell of a time getting the 22 AWG wires to stay in the crimp on connectors from the pic above.  Do I need a special tool?  I already have a crimper/wire cutter/stripper from the Shack.  I did a search on the topic and only found that Minwah had similar trouble trying to crimp wires into connectors that slipped into a molex.  He mentioned that he didn't have the proper tool and that he ended up crimping with pliers and then soldering to get a secure connection.  Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks in Advance,
KenToad

[Captain_Dingo]

If the wires are too small and are coming out, one trick I know people have used is to strip three times as much wire as you need for the connector.  Fold the bare portion into thirds, then slid it into the connector and crimp away.

I said thirds, but I suppose half or fourths would work too, depending on how much thickness you need to make up.

[KenToad]

If the wires are too small and are coming out, one trick I know people have used is to strip three times as much wire as you need for the connector. Fold the bare portion into thirds, then slid it into the connector and crimp away.

I said thirds, but I suppose half or fourths would work too, depending on how much thickness you need to make up.

Thanks for the suggestion.  The fold over technique sounds fine.  I will try it, and assume it's cool crimping just with a normal crimping tool.

Cheers,
KenToad

[fl0yd]

On mine, I didn't use crimpers due to the small sizes, I used needle nosed pliers.

I do think the folding method would help though.

[JODY]

Order for 2 placed.

[Nailz]

Got mine today, thanks Mark!  Quick shipping and great stuff!

[KenToad]

It took about 2 hours to get this wired up (I'm not very fast). 

I made the hookup cable from the rotary switch to the Druin Interface and hooked it up.  I took 5v and Ground from the GP-Wiz 49.  I wired the CW1 and CCW1 outputs of the Druin board to two inputs on the GP-Wiz 49.  I fired up Ikari Warriors and mapped the controls.  The Incline and Decline are mapped to the two button inputs for CW1 & CCW1.  I also went into Analog Controls (in Ikari Warriors Mame setup) and set the sensitivity to 2%.

Rotary joystick now works like a charm!

Hey Markrvp and Floyd,

I just spent a really long night wiring up my modular two player 49 way with rotary interfaces setup.  I tested it with Ikari Warriors and found that 2% sensitivity seemed not sensitive enough.  I set the sensitivity on six, then seven for awhile.  Sensitivity eight is definitely too high.  Really, it's not working perfectly for me, yet, so I'm wondering if you guys changed any of the other setting in the Analog part of the Mame control panel. 

Also, Floyd, your pinouts for the interface to Druins board are backwards in the sense that, in Druin's instructions, he says that the 13 pin connector should be attached with the plastic covers facing up.  Those 13 pin adaptors are numbered and I followed that numbering, since my Druin's interface board is not numbered.  I ended up having to flip over the 13 pin adaptor, if you understand what I mean, since if you wire according to the numbers on the 13 pin adaptor and then hook it up to Druin's interface with the plastic covered side facing out, it will not work.  This is not really a problem, since the connector easily fits on either way. 

Also, Floyd, maybe you should note on the website that you will need a tiny hex wrench to tighten the set screw that holds the rotary onto the shaft of the joystick.  I've got a friend who has a set of hex wrenches, but probably some people will probably want to just buy a set if they don't have it or can't borrow it.

Maybe I should start a 49-way/rotary adaptor faq thread where everyone can post the analog settings and experiences with these products?  So far, I want to add, I'm very happy with the product.

BTW, Markrvp, I'm impressed if you got all that wiring for your CP done in two hours.  The wiring for my panel took forever and its still not done, just because I've made it modular and haven't hooked up the second GP-Wiz 49 to the second player parallel interface. 

Let the solder flow like rivers.

Cheers,
KenToad

[Tiger-Heli]

I just spent a really long night wiring up my modular two player 49 way with rotary interfaces setup.  I tested it with Ikari Warriors and found that 2% sensitivity seemed not sensitive enough.  I set the sensitivity on six, then seven for awhile.  Sensitivity eight is definitely too high.  Really, it's not working perfectly for me, yet, so I'm wondering if you guys changed any of the other setting in the Analog part of the Mame control panel.

You might need to vary the speed settings also - From the FAQ on Druin's page:
 ***
What settings should I use in the Analog Controls menu for speed/sensitivity?

This will vary between games, and may also vary depending on computer speed and keyboard encoders used, how they treat the inputs, and which type of joystick is used (Happ or LS30 yellow), etc.  With my 1.7GHz AMD processor and an IPac with the Happ joystick, I have the settings in Ikari Warriors set to Speed  7    Sensitivity  62%    This seems to provide good response with one twist resulting in one on-screen movement, no overshoots or missed rotations.

****

Also, for anyone with this setup, that feels adventurous, I have a bunch of questions for someone to test out -

First - MAME Analog Plus Version 0.74.1 and up added Buttons 4 and 5 for these games.  What this does is add a digital input for rotation (one button press = one rotation increment, regardless of button press duration).

I am sure this works better with the MK64 board, but not sure it works better with Druin's interface.  To test it -

Set the joystick 1 outputs from Druin's interface to the Dial inputs for Player 1, as usual (do not assign anything to Buttons 4 and 5).  Set the joystick 2 outputs from Druin's board to P2 Buttons 4 and 5 and map the dial inputs to NONE.  Set the analog controls settings the same and see which method (Stick one or Stick two) provides better results.

Second test - Mame Analog Plus Version 0.77.1 and up added direct support for the rotary inputs using 12 encoder keys.  The GP-Wiz49 provides enough inputs to support this.  MAME Analog Plus uses the P3 Buttons and Buttons 9 and 10 of P1.  From Urebel's .ini file examples:
 
# this is just an example of using the middle row of the keyboard
# you'll need to select non-conflicting keys/buttons
# to wire your controller unlike this example.
# uncomment and remap as needed

# player 1 rotary
#P3_BUTTON1              "KEYCODE_A"
#P3_BUTTON2              "KEYCODE_S"
#P3_BUTTON3              "KEYCODE_D"
#P3_BUTTON4              "KEYCODE_F"
#P3_BUTTON5              "KEYCODE_G"
#P3_BUTTON6              "KEYCODE_H"
#P3_BUTTON7              "KEYCODE_J"
#P3_BUTTON8              "KEYCODE_K"
#P3_BUTTON9              "KEYCODE_L"
#P3_BUTTON10             "KEYCODE_COLON"
#P1_BUTTON9              "KEYCODE_QUOTE"
#P1_BUTTON10             "KEYCODE_ENTER"

Lilwolf has previously posted that it works fine for Time Soldiers and fails for Ikari and Victory Road (and works for about another half-dozen unknown games).  Could someone hook them up this way and report on which games work and fail?

Final Test - Lilwolf also asked if you could jointly wire the joystick to Druin's board and directly to an encoder.  This way you could use the test two (direct wire) method for the games that support it, and the Druin interface for the board's that didn't.  The reply implied it should work, but I don't think anyone ever tested it.

Thanks in advance!!!!

[KenToad]

I just spent a really long night wiring up my modular two player 49 way with rotary interfaces setup.  I tested it with Ikari Warriors and found that 2% sensitivity seemed not sensitive enough.  I set the sensitivity on six, then seven for awhile.  Sensitivity eight is definitely too high.  Really, it's not working perfectly for me, yet, so I'm wondering if you guys changed any of the other setting in the Analog part of the Mame control panel.

You might need to vary the speed settings also - From the FAQ on Druin's page:
 ***
What settings should I use in the Analog Controls menu for speed/sensitivity?

This will vary between games, and may also vary depending on computer speed and keyboard encoders used, how they treat the inputs, and which type of joystick is used (Happ or LS30 yellow), etc.  With my 1.7GHz AMD processor and an IPac with the Happ joystick, I have the settings in Ikari Warriors set to Speed  7    Sensitivity  62%    This seems to provide good response with one twist resulting in one on-screen movement, no overshoots or missed rotations.

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Also, for anyone with this setup, that feels adventurous, I have a bunch of questions for someone to test out -

First - MAME Analog Plus Version 0.74.1 and up added Buttons 4 and 5 for these games.  What this does is add a digital input for rotation (one button press = one rotation increment, regardless of button press duration).

I am sure this works better with the MK64 board, but not sure it works better with Druin's interface.  To test it -

Set the joystick 1 outputs from Druin's interface to the Dial inputs for Player 1, as usual (do not assign anything to Buttons 4 and 5).  Set the joystick 2 outputs from Druin's board to P2 Buttons 4 and 5 and map the dial inputs to NONE.  Set the analog controls settings the same and see which method (Stick one or Stick two) provides better results.

First of all, Tiger-Heli, thanks a million for that quote from Druin's faq.  I actually read that and just plumb forgot about it, maybe because it was so late last night and I got really confused since I expected the rotary adapter to just work perfectly after I did all that work .  I messed around a little with those settings and I'm pretty sure that those numbers will not work.  However, I must test to verify, since I can't remember how low I set the digital speed.

Also, as an aside Tiger-Heli, let me just say that you have been one of the most amazingly helpful people on this forum.  I will definitely test out Mame Analog+ tonight or tomorrow with the Druin's board and post the results here.  As for the other tests, I'm just about fed up with wiring to go ahead and splice wires from the druins board to direct inputs on my GP-Wiz 49's.  I may end up doing just that for testing my solder connections, anyway, although they look good and the thing seems to work despite the analog settings issues.  I'll get back to you.  Also, do you have any particular application in mind for the results of these tests or are you just accumulating knowledge ?

Cheers,
KenToad 

[Tiger-Heli]

I messed around a little with those settings and I'm pretty sure that those numbers will not work.  However, I must test to verify, since I can't remember how low I set the digital speed.

I don't expect those settings to work.  I was mainly just pointing out that you probably wanted to play with the Speed as well as the Sensitivity setting.

Also, as an aside Tiger-Heli, let me just say that you have been one of the most amazingly helpful people on this forum.

Thanks.  Although the whole forum is really helpful people so it's nice to be able to give back to it.

I will definitely test out Mame Analog+ tonight or tomorrow with the Druin's board and post the results here.

Thanks!!!

As for the other tests, I'm just about fed up with wiring to go ahead and splice wires from the druins board to direct inputs on my GP-Wiz 49's.

Actually, the initial test would be hooking up the rotary switch to direct inputs on the GP-Wiz49's (not from the Druin's board).  Assuming you didn't solder directly to Druin's board, you might be able to accomplish this by moving the cable from Druin's board to the GP-Wiz49, assuming the pin spacing is the same, which it probably isn't.

Also, do you have any particular application in mind for the results of these tests or are you just accumulating knowledge ?

Primarily, see http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/index.htm.  I am in the process of revising it and the name will change to Arcade Interfaces.  I started adding Gamepad encoders, then 49-way interfaces, then Analog Interfaces, then figured I may as well add in optical interfaces, and rotary interfaces, and (it looks like) LED interfaces.  Will be a MASSIVE revision (about 3/4's done).

All info learned will be shared there (with credit, of course).  I just hate saying "This method might or might not provide better results" or "This works with Time Soldiers and about six other games, but I don't know which ones".

As a secondary issue - way down the road I would like to add a personal way to play rotary joystick games, but will probably get both a GP-Wiz or GP-Wiz49 and a Druin's board then, so I could come up with the data myself at that point, but it is way down the road . . .

[KenToad]

Actually, the initial test would be hooking up the rotary switch to direct inputs on the GP-Wiz49's (not from the Druin's board).  Assuming you didn't solder directly to Druin's board, you might be able to accomplish this by moving the cable from Druin's board to the GP-Wiz49, assuming the pin spacing is the same, which it probably isn't.

I have the max version of the GP- Wiz49, the one with the screw terminals, and I've already crimped all the wires from the rotary interfaces into the 13 pin connectors.  I could probably run some wires from the exposed connector terminals on the druin board to the interface, but I just don't think I will have the energy for that anytime soon.  Maybe next week.   However, you made me remember that I have a keywiz eco2 with the IDE connector pins in my gargantuan CP and could check that one out.  I'll have a look when I get a chance.

Cheers,
KenToad

[Tiger-Heli]

However, you made me remember that I have a keywiz eco2 with the IDE connector pins in my gargantuan CP and could check that one out.  I'll have a look when I get a chance.

Thanks!

[markrvp]

BTW, Markrvp, I'm impressed if you got all that wiring for your CP done in two hours.

[KenToad]

2 hours was just the Rotary adapter. The rest of the panel wiring was a whole other night.

My kit came with the little hex wrench. Did you not get one? Also, which version of the Druin board are you using, the older one or the new one he just came out with?

I'm pretty sure I didn't get that little hex wrench, but I'll check the box again just to be sure.  Also, I think I'm using the new version of the Druin board, since I just ordered it last week or so and it had the new pricing, not really sure how else to tell the difference.  That's still pretty fast to cut, solder and crimp thirteen wires, if you ask me, probably took me 30 - 45 minutes longer, but I'm relatively new to soldering and crimping. 

Cheers,
KenToad

[Tiger-Heli]

Also, I think I'm using the new version of the Druin board, since I just ordered it last week or so and it had the new pricing, not really sure how else to tell the difference.

It was the new board then.  Pics below, new board is smaller with fewer components:

[KenToad]

Yep, I have the new one.  Thanks again, Tiger-Heli.

[fl0yd]

My kit came with the little hex wrench. Did you not get one?

The very first set screws had a larger hex size than I had wrenches for.  In some cases I didn't have a wrench to send with the adapter.  Sorry KenToad.    I think I'll add a 'tools needed' section to the site though.

Also, Floyd, your pinouts for the interface to Druins board are backwards in the sense that, in Druin's instructions, he says that the 13 pin connector should be attached with the plastic covers facing up.  Those 13 pin adaptors are numbered and I followed that numbering, since my Druin's interface board is not numbered.  I ended up having to flip over the 13 pin adaptor, if you understand what I mean, since if you wire according to the numbers on the 13 pin adaptor and then hook it up to Druin's interface with the plastic covered side facing out, it will not work.  This is not really a problem, since the connector easily fits on either way. 

I'll take a look at this. I'll probably add a picture of mine with the connector I supply since Druin's appears to assume you are using the Happ connector which is quite different.

[armax]

got the package in.  Nice job!  This has to be the most versatile joystick out there.  Thanks again Floyd, this upgrade really helped eliminate the need for a modular panel and freed up some dollars for other projects.

[fl0yd]

It's my pleasure, I'm glad I'm finally able to give back to BYOAC.

[Druin]

I can't remember how I came up with my numbering system for the pinouts on the harness, but I wasn't following any conventions. I was using the JST connector (original) but I don't know where pin 1 really is, I just took a picture of the connector and said "THis is what I'm calling pin 1" so I may be backwards.  I was trying to illustrate the mapping from end to end since it's not a 1 to 1 cable and some people wanted to know how to map it. 
I should go through the site info and update/correct things whenever I get a chance. I have a lot of fixing up I could do.

[fl0yd]

I should go through the site info and update/correct things whenever I get a chance

Have you gotten around to this?

[Druin]

I think my chart was right because I found that every pin from 1 through 13 were numbered on my jst connector so that's what I followed when I made my table of pin map info and showed the picture showing where I'm calling pin 1 on the JST.

[jlml]

The "everything panel" that everyone dismisses takes one step closer to reality...

Ok... just to make the ultra in way cool.

How about adding a button to the joystick?

Your already replacing the bottom 1/2 of the shaft.

[fl0yd]

I agree that it would be cool to have a joystick that did it all.

[Kremmit]

You know, the Do-It-All stick is within reach.

You use a hollow-shaft-with-a-plunger-type topfire mechanism, so that twisting isn't a problem for the wires.  Then you use a geared setup to add a rotary switch off-axis, so that it doesn't get in the way of the topfire mechanism.  We'd need a custom 49-way shaft (Franco?), and a custom mounting bracket to hold everything on there.

Here's a pic that (hopefully) illustrates the concept.  The mounting brackets are left off for visual clarity (and becaue I could never draw them myself).  I am Photoshop-Challenged (which I think gets me a handicapped parking pass when I'm in Sillicon Valley), so my apologies if it's not clear.  And thanks to everybody whose images I ganked- I put this Frankenstein's Image together entirely from dead body parts images collected here on BYOAC and fl0yd's page.

[fl0yd]

I agree that that would be possible, but pretty complicated.  I'll see if I can get a photoshop'd mock up of what it would look like with a rotary adapter.

[fl0yd]

I was thinking of a balltop with a button.  The button would be attached to a plunger bar through a hollow shaft joystick.  At the bottom of the plunger would be an optical encoder wheel.  The wheel would need to be able to move enough within the encoder to trigger a switch to detect the plunged action.

In the picture, all parts in red are moving parts.  The encoder wheel and plunger switch will need to move in line with the joystick's shaft.  The parts listing is from Happ's optical rotary assembly.

Please forgive me, I have horrible photo editing skills.

[conseit68]

Floyd...

Take a look at the (2) sticky threads in this forum...maybe we can get our mind together on this?...let me know

[Kremmit]

When I was thinking about this, I considered going the optical route-  optical would be easier & cheaper to implement, I admit.  Instead of expensive gears and an expensive 12-switch- you just need an encoder wheel and a mouse hack. 

If you're going to go optical, why not attach your encoder wheel to the bottom of the shaft directly, and let the plunger push right throough the hole in the center of the encoder wheel?  That way you wouldn't have to worry about the encoder wheel moving up and down inside the optics, or moving the optic board, or any of that.

That said, I still prefer mechanical rotary over optical rotary- that's what 99% of the rotary games used.  Opticals just don't feel right.

[Tiger-Heli]

Kremmit - the main problem I see is that when you move the joystick, you are probably going to bind up those gears, I think, maybe not.  I can probably be done, but not easily.

[fl0yd]

Another option that wouldn't require the plunger to be attached to the enoder wheel would be a method for optical rotary mentioned elsewhere on the boards.  The user used a toothed rubber band attached to a gear on the shaft and a gear on the optical encoder to turn the encoder.  The flexibility of the band allowed for the deflection of the joystick without affecting the rotary function.

I'm not sure if this could be used with a mechanical rotary setup.  The resistance on the 12 position switch just feels like it would be too much.

[KenToad]

Another option that wouldn't require the plunger to be attached to the enoder wheel would be a method for optical rotary mentioned elsewhere on the boards.  The user used a toothed rubber band attached to a gear on the shaft and a gear on the optical encoder to turn the encoder.  The flexibility of the band allowed for the deflection of the joystick without affecting the rotary function.

I'm not sure if this could be used with a mechanical rotary setup.  The resistance on the 12 position switch just feels like it would be too much.

Also, that hack was for a joystick that had a really short throw, the T-stick Plus, if I remember correctly.  It probably wouldn't be so feasible on a 49-way with the 20 degrees of throw it has.

I like the idea of having an analog rotary joystick that could be used as a spinner, as well, not to mention that analog is exactly what official Mame expects for all rotary type games.

Cheers,
KenToad

 

[fl0yd]

not to mention that analog is exactly what official Mame expects for all rotary type games.

Yeah, I've noticed a bit of the doubling effect in Ikari as well.  I think that analog would help with that, but one nice thing about the mechanical switches are the 'stops.'  An analog would be prone to continuing past one movement, and be even more prone to the accidental rotation during frantic gameplay.

[KenToad]

not to mention that analog is exactly what official Mame expects for all rotary type games.

Yeah, I've noticed a bit of the doubling effect in Ikari as well.  I think that analog would help with that, but one nice thing about the mechanical switches are the 'stops.'  An analog would be prone to continuing past one movement, and be even more prone to the accidental rotation during frantic gameplay.

I totally agree.  And I think one day we'll see an improvement in the software handling of games like Ikari Warriors.  That set seems to double the most for me.

Cheers,
KenToad

[Kremmit]

Kremmit - the main problem I see is that when you move the joystick, you are probably going to bind up those gears, I think, maybe not.  I can probably be done, but not easily.

Why would they bind up?  They're just floating in space, after all!   

Seriously, that pic isn't meant to be the actual mechanism, just a visual explanation of the concept. 

To actually build it, you'd need the switch and it's gear to attach to a bracket that is in turn attached to the shaft itself.  That way, the gears will move with the shaft and not bind up.  Same bracket should also hold the leaf (or micro) switch on the bottom for the top-fire.  And of course, then you'll need that bracket hooked into an anti-spin rig similar to the ones in fl0yd's rotary kit. 

I can see this magic bracket in my head, but it's more then I felt I could tackle in Photoshop.