49-way vs 4-way vs 8-way in MAME: Differences...

[NoOne=NBA=]

is meat-lovers ok with everyone?  and i ordered some more beer from safeway online...both should be here in an hour.

You're underage, aren't you?

I was planning to come over, but I have to train a bunch of cops tonight in Clackamas.
They might follow me if they hear that there's free pizza and beer.

[Flinkly]

that's not what he's saying at all, he's saying that some of our vendors aren't the nice, caring guy you think they are.

[mahuti]

* yawns

[NoOne=NBA=]

clackamas?  oregon?

It'd be a really long road trip if it wasn't.

Yeah, Clackamas/Multnomah Counties, and Fairview/Gresham/Troutdale are training at Camp Withycombe.

[Chris]

Randy, do you realise how preposterous that sounds? Are you seriously suggesting that Andy, or any of your other competitors, has planted a number of secret agents on this board posing as ordinary BYOAC members, so they can deliberately try to undermine you? Come on.

Um, that's not what I got out of his message.  I'll read it again, but I don't think that's what he was saying at all.

[IntruderAlert]

So did anyone ever test Donkey Kong on the 49 way?

[Flinkly]

keep with it intruder alert.  i'm sure someone will hear you sooner than later...

[paigeoliver]

Ok, first example of a stick that switches analog output to digital output in hardware.

Thrustmaster Firestorm Dual Analog 3 Gamepad.

Most high end flight sticks and pretty much every gamepad with dual thumb buttons already has this feature. Its old news. I don't do playstations, but I am pretty sure they started doing that on the playstation 5 or 6 years ago.

[Toonces]

So did anyone ever test Donkey Kong on the 49 way?

Yes. It's much more playable for me than the t-stick+ was. Not quite the same as using a dedicated 4 way but damn close.

[IntruderAlert]

So did anyone ever test Donkey Kong on the 49 way?

Yes. It's much more playable for me than the t-stick+ was. Not quite the same as using a dedicated 4 way but damn close.

I'm building a 4 player CP with 4 - 49 ways on it
Do you think I should include at least one REAL 4 way?

[mahuti]

Yeah, the playstation sticks have a button on them right in the middle to switch the dual analog sticks to digital.

[Toonces]

So did anyone ever test Donkey Kong on the 49 way?

Yes. It's much more playable for me than the t-stick+ was. Not quite the same as using a dedicated 4 way but damn close.

I'm building a 4 player CP with 4 - 49 ways on it
Do you think I should include at least one REAL 4 way?

If you really ans truly want DK to play like it does on a dedicated DK then add a Nintendo 4 way. That way you'll get the true feel of the original. Other than that, The 4 way on the 49ways works very well for me.

[shmokes]

....right now there's a part of me that doesn't want shmokes or Grasshopper to be happy....ever.

RandyT

Can someone tell me if this means that RandyT merely wants me to be disappointed while playing arcade games, or if he actually wants me to, like, get in a horrible, crippling accident and have my wife cheat on me and my kids hate me and get audided every year and be framed for murder and receive the death penalty and eventually go to hell for something I didn't do and burn for eternity?

I'm hoping the former, but his post was ambiguous.  He did say "ever".

[IntruderAlert]

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?

[Flinkly]

i think your getting a little personal here.

[Grasshopper]

....right now there's a part of me that doesn't want shmokes or Grasshopper to be happy....ever.

RandyT

Can someone tell me if this means that RandyT merely wants me to be disappointed while playing arcade games, or if he actually wants me to, like, get in a horrible, crippling accident and have my wife cheat on me and my kids hate me and get audided every year and be framed for murder and receive the death penalty and eventually go to hell for something I didn't do and burn for eternity?

I'm hoping the former, but his post was ambiguous.  He did say "ever".

Lol, I'm just glad Randy doesn't know what I look like. He might make a little voodoo doll of me and start sticking pins in it.

[RandyT]

Ok, first example of a stick that switches analog output to digital output in hardware.

Thrustmaster Firestorm Dual Analog 3 Gamepad.

Most high end flight sticks and pretty much every gamepad with dual thumb buttons already has this feature. Its old news. I don't do playstations, but I am pretty sure they started doing that on the playstation 5 or 6 years ago.

Yeah, the playstation sticks have a button on them right in the middle to switch the dual analog sticks to digital.

Ok. Said I was done, but I cannot let this pass by.  Neither of these examples are even close.

Paige, you don't even own one of the interfaces, yet feel qualified somehow to say what they are or aren't, and frankly that is really baffling me.  The device you are using as an example to point out how "wrong wrong wrong"  I am includes a discreet D-Pad along with the analog control sticks.  The switch does the following, per the documentation found here.

GAMEPAD MODE CONFIGURATION
Press the MODE button to switch between Digital and Dual Analog modes.

Digital Mode: multidirectional D-Pad (8 directions, 4 diagonals) and 12 programmable action
buttons.

Dual Analog Mode: 12 programmable action buttons, 2 analog controllers and programmable 8 way
POV function on the multidirectional D-Pad.


As you can see, at no time do the analog sticks become anything other than analog.  It merely switches the control to the D-pad.  This would be exactly the same as having an Analog joystick and an 8-way on your control panel, with a switch to go between the two of them.  The function of the GP-Wiz49 is very different.

As for the Playstation dual-shock controllers:   Everyone that owns one, please go fire up a game that does not have analog support built in.  Something old would probably be safe.  Now hit the analog button.  Can you play the game with the Analog sticks?  No.  It also just turns the analog function off and on.

But if anyone actually does come up with an appropriate comparison, I really am interested. so please let me know.

RandyT

BTW, take it easy, shmokes, I'm not a gypsy (no offense intended to any gypsies out there) and there are no voodoo dolls on my desk in your visage.  If karma took a toll on you today, I'm sorry, but I had nothing to do with it.

And Grasshopper, get outta my head.  I was just getting ready to hit the post button when you responded.

[Tiger-Heli]

Shucks, late to the party again, RandyT already replied . . .

....right now there's a part of me that doesn't want shmokes or Grasshopper to be happy....ever.

RandyT

I'm hoping the former, but his post was ambiguous.  He did say "ever".

It could also mean that some part of him will not ever want shmokes or Grasshopper to be happy - In other words - For the rest of his life (or longer) RandyT will not want shmokes or Grasshopper to be happy.  Not, RandyT currently wants shmokes or Grasshopper to be unhappy for eternity.  Then again, he said or, not and, so maybe you shouldn't take it so personally, as RandyT might be just as happy if all those bad things you mentioned happened to Grasshopper instead of you, as long as it's one of the two of you.

But I agree, it was fairly ambiguous.  RandyT, could we get some clarification as to your wishes for shmoke's future?

* Tiger-Heli asks if there's any more pizza, or even better, Pepsi (caffeine), as it might still be a long night.

[IntruderAlert]

As you can see, at no time do the analog sticks become anything other than analog.  It merely switches the control to the D-pad.  This would be exactly the same as having an Analog joystick and an 8-way on your control panel, with a switch to go between the two of them.  The function of the GP-Wiz49 is very different.

As for the Playstation dual-shock controllers:   Everyone that owns one, please go fire up a game that does not have analog support built in.  Something old would be probably be safe.  Now hit the analog button.  Can you play the game with the Analog sticks?  No.  It also just turns the analog function off and on.

That's right
You can play most if not all ANALOG playstation games with the DIGITAL D-PAD but not vice-versa

[mahuti]

Randy's on point there, It's been a long time since I've been on a playstation, but as I recal, the analog was pretty useless... at least on PSOne. Very few games supported it. 

[shmokes]

BTW, take it easy, shmokes, I'm not a gypsy (no offense intended to any gypsies out there) and there are no voodoo dolls on my desk in your visage.  If karma took a toll on you today, I'm sorry, but I had nothing to do with it.

Once again vague....

Apparently he has no way to bring his desires to fruition, but this still doesn't address just how unhappy a part of him wishes that Grasshopper and/or (thanks Tiger-Heli) me to be for the rest of our lives, and possibly into the afterlife.  He still has not given an adequate definition of "happy" either.  Does he want us to be unhappy forever with his behavior or with our existences?

For that matter which part of him, exactly, wishes to keep us from happiness?   

[monkeybomb]

  

[RandyT]

Apparently he has no way to bring his desires to fruition, but this still doesn't address just how unhappy a part of him wishes that Grasshopper and/or (thanks Tiger-Heli) me to be for the rest of our lives, and possibly into the afterlife.  He still has not given an adequate definition of "happy" either.  Does he want us to be unhappy forever with his behavior or with our existences?

For that matter which part of him, exactly, wishes to keep us from happiness?   

shmokes,

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." -- Sigmund Freud


RandyT

[shmokes]

Now he wants to burn us with cigars???

[mahuti]

"Depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is" -- Bill Cilnton

[Crazy Cooter]

* flinkly puts on his flame-retardant suit after crazy cooter shoots his mouth on his opinion, then begins to wonder how to get beer into his mouth through the suit...

Heheh, even gas in enough quantity can smother fire.   Both Randy and Andy know more about encoders than I ever hope (or would want) to know.  I don't know if either of them have copied anything more than the "the goal" of their products.  If one comes out with an idea and it sells, then it makes sense for the other to offer a comparative item.  The more diverse their ideas are for accomplishing the same goal, the better off we (and they) are because they can "point" their stuff in the direction they want to head with their business and phase in whatever they're working on next.

As far as the original topic.  Up is up... unless you're down with what's left.  Right?

[NeeBick]

But if anyone actually does come up with an appropriate comparison, I really am interested. so please let me know.

I really didn't want to post but...

I have four Logitech rumblepads that I have used for years on my emulators. On the press of the button the controls are swapped.  The d-pad (pov) functions as an analog stick and the analog sticks acts as an 8-way d-pad (pov).   A very useful feature that I have valued for years.

edit: It is only the left analog stick that gets swapped. I never used the right so I have no idea what happened to it.

From logitech support questions:
"Pressing the Mode button on the RumblePad

[shmokes]

Is that what the mode button does on my wireless rumblepad?  I've always wondered that.  Good controllers.  A little too big for my girl-hands, but good controller nonetheless.

[RandyT]

Please note that swapping functionality of the D-Pad to the mini joystick in a game designed for gamepad only may cause unexpected behavior. This is due the fact that the D-Pad is an 8-way switch and the mini joystick is a 2-axis analog joystick."

This is your indicator that translation does not take place in the controller.  If it did, it would be absolutely transparent to the application and no anomalies would occur.

It's just a switch like the examples given above.

RandyT

[Grasshopper]

shmokes,

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." -- Sigmund Freud

RandyT

Unless you're Bill Clinton, in which case it serves a dual purpose.

[NeeBick]

Please note that swapping functionality of the D-Pad to the mini joystick in a game designed for gamepad only may cause unexpected behavior. This is due the fact that the D-Pad is an 8-way switch and the mini joystick is a 2-axis analog joystick."

This is your indicator that translation does not take place in the controller.  If it did, it would be absolutely transparent to the application and no anomalies would occur.

It's just a switch like the examples given above.

RandyT

It is transparent to the application.  When I assign the d-pad (as an analog stick) in emulators it shows up as x-axis+,x-axis -,y-axis +, and y-axis -.  The analog stick shows up as the pov inputs.  It requires NO software to provide this swap (I never install the software or any drivers just the ones that windows offers).  I believe the unexpected behavior refers to when the analog switches direction (i.e. up to up-left) which would be hard for a person to realize the exact point with an analog controller.  It just corporate b.s. to cover themselves in case people complain.

[RandyT]

It is transparent to the application.  When I assign the d-pad (as an analog stick) in emulators it shows up as x-axis+,x-axis -,y-axis +, and y-axis -.  The analog stick shows up as the pov inputs.  It requires NO software to provide this swap (I never install the software or any drivers just the ones that windows offers).  I believe the unexpected behavior refers to when the analog switches direction (i.e. up to up-left) which would be hard for a person to realize the exact point with an analog controller.  It just corporate b.s. to cover themselves in case people complain.

Still not the same.  The Windows driver and USB report structure are responsible for most of what you are seeing.

Gamepad D-Pads are not POV devices (at least none of the ones I have seen), they report the same as a Joystick would, only they are programmed to output the extreme-most co-ordinates when a digital switch is actuated. 

Tell me, is there any way on your Gamepad for the Analog stick to behave like a gamepad does in the X and Y axis Window?  This is the apples-to-apples comparison.

RandyT

[NeeBick]

It is transparent to the application.  When I assign the d-pad (as an analog stick) in emulators it shows up as x-axis+,x-axis -,y-axis +, and y-axis -.  The analog stick shows up as the pov inputs.  It requires NO software to provide this swap (I never install the software or any drivers just the ones that windows offers).  I believe the unexpected behavior refers to when the analog switches direction (i.e. up to up-left) which would be hard for a person to realize the exact point with an analog controller.  It just corporate b.s. to cover themselves in case people complain.

Still not the same.  The Windows driver and USB report structure are responsible for most of what you are seeing.

Gamepad D-Pads are not POV devices (at least none of the ones I have seen), they report the same as a Joystick would, only they are programmed to output the extreme-most co-ordinates when a digital switch is actuated. 

Tell me, is there any way on your Gamepad for the Analog stick to behave like a gamepad does in the X and Y axis Window?  This is the apples-to-apples comparison.

RandyT

Well not in the axis window but the pov circle and yes the d-pad functions as pov device.  Its a gamepad and analog control at the same time.  Basically it report as: d-pad - pov, left analog -x and y, right analog two vertical sliders, and the slider as the z axis slider.  It has to use the pov to report all those inputs.

[Tiger-Heli]

If I understand correctly, this is what RandyT is saying:

Go to the Windows Controllers calibration screen. 

For a digital input or device, the cursor should be either centered or at the end of it's travel, depending on switch position.  There should be no intermediate position. 

For an analog input, the cursor should progress smoothly from center to the limit of travel as the control is depressed further.

Try the D-pad with the Analog button turned off . . . Which way (above) does it operate?

Press the Analog button and Try the D-pad again.

Does it use the other method?  Then it is doing something like what the GP-Wiz49 does.  Does it do the same thing but as a different input on the controller?  Then it is not doing the same thing as the GP-Wiz49.

Try the same test with the left analog stick.  The test criteria are the same.

Correct anything I messed up, Randy!

[MajorLag]

Heres how it works:

In DIGITAL mode: Gamepad uses X and Y axis, jumps from 0 to maximum values in any given direction. Left analog stick acts the same after being pushed more then half way in any given direction (give or take some). Right analog stick does not function. All buttons except L3 and R3 work as expected.

In ANALOG mode: Gamepad acts as POV hat. Left Analog uses X and Y axis and acts as one would expect an analog control to act. Right analog stick uses Z Axis and Z Rotation and acts as one would expect an analog control to act. All buttons, including L3 and R3, act as expected.

[RandyT]

Heres how it works:

In DIGITAL mode: Gamepad uses X and Y axis, jumps from 0 to maximum values in any given direction. Left analog stick acts the same after being pushed more then half way in any given direction (give or take some). Right analog stick does not function. All buttons except L3 and R3 work as expected.

In ANALOG mode: Gamepad acts as POV hat. Left Analog uses X and Y axis and acts as one would expect an analog control to act. Right analog stick uses Z Axis and Z Rotation and acts as one would expect an analog control to act. All buttons, including L3 and R3, act as expected.

The POV controls are not comparable.  If the analog stick does not look and act exactly as a D-Pad does in the X / Y Axes of the Gaming Options dialog in Windows, then we are talking about different birds.

Please research the data generated for  POV controls to see how they differ from the data generated for  X and Y Axes.

RandyT

[Xiaou2]

 Its pretty much just as he said it.

  The windows view shows an analog control box and the standard pov and buttons.

 When you press analog stick in analog mode...  it moves just as an analog should.  The d-pad will function as  POV  buttons in analog mode.

  ----

  When in Digital mode...  Pressing the analog stick will move the analog box - but not smooth like an analog controller.   By pressing about half way in any direction... the analog display box will show the cursor snap from the center to full extent (very edge) in the direction you are pressing in.

  The dpad will act as a dpad

 I have the Saitek p880.   Works the same way as described.   

 The older 1st generation gampads didnt function well - and used software to work.  They realized this mistake, and made it all function in hardware now.   I never installed the drivers either... as they are not needed for the thing to work.

[RandyT]

  When in Digital mode...  Pressing the analog stick will move the analog box - but not smooth like an analog controller.   By pressing about half way in any direction... the analog display box will show the cursor snap from the center to full extent (very edge) in the direction you are pressing in.

  The dpad will act as a dpad

 I have the Saitek p880.   Works the same way as described.   

Does it snap to the outer ring in any direction or only the primary 8 like a D-Pad?  And is it doing it in the X/Y Axes box or the POV box?  Because based on the research I just did on the model you mentioned, what you are saying can't be true....unless both the D-Pad and the analog pad are active as the same controller at the same time.  Even so, behaviour is important.

The older 1st generation gampads didnt function well - and used software to work.  They realized this mistake, and made it all function in hardware now.   I never installed the drivers either... as they are not needed for the thing to work.

From the FAQ for your  gamepad:

Q6: My d-pad was working fine but when I restart my PC it no longer works when using the digital button to activate it. What can I do?

A6: Some people find that their PC does not correctly activate the driver on restart. To solve this you will need to open the Game Controllers icon in Control Panel and access the Properties for the pad. Test the d-pad by pressing the digital button and when it works, close Game Controllers and play your game - it should then be fine.
----------

Sure sounds like the driver and that Digital button are working "hand -in-hand" to me. 

RandyT

[MajorLag]

I can assure you that there are no special drivers nessesary to use the adaptor I have (some cheap radioshack thing). It functions as a HID compliant device and only requires drivers if you want force feedback.

To answer your question: When using the analog stick in digital mode it will only produce the same values that a dpad could. In other words, only the primary 8 directions. This is done in the X/Y box, not the POV.

[RandyT]

I can assure you that there are no special drivers nessesary to use the adaptor I have (some cheap radioshack thing).

Adaptor?

What kind of device are we talking about?  BTW, I really do appreciate the info that is being porovided on these various devices, even though none have quite hit the mark yet.

RandyT