49-way vs 4-way vs 8-way in MAME: Differences...

[CheffoJeffo]

Never underestimate the value of "ad hominem nonsense".

It's often how world leaders are elected

My point exactly ...

[chasmosis]

While Andy did make a few comments on the GP49 announcement thread I don't feel  that i've ever seen any of Andy's posts that were as agressive or openly confrontational as RandyT's.  On other boards, I could easily see RandyT's posts in this thread getting moderated as trolls.

I don't see anything useful getting done by the bickering or open hostility.

I'm honestly curious what RandyT feels he needs to prove by hi-jacking this thread.  If anyone disagree's with my hi-jacking statement please feel free to count postings by each.  Before I began writing this response, Andy had 5 posts including the one starting this thread, RandyT had 6. 

I think both have great products.  I'll probably end up ordering a couple trackballs and j-sticks from Andy in the next few months but that doesn't mean that RandyT's products aren't as good.

Going back to earlier posts about folks copying others, I guess I don't see it the same way.  I don't see product development time for either Andy or RandyT's products getting done in just a few weeks.  And lets remember that Dave's AKI interface predated both products but I haven't seen any posts by Dave busting anyones chops for others more or less copying his work (I concede that my understanding is that Dave's AKI interface didn't show up as a gamepad).

[pointdablame]

Hey Peale, hand over some of that popcorn...

[monkeybomb]

Tis is why he had to hi-jack the thread.

"Do I need to add electronic division of the analog circle into 4 or 8 sectors? I don't think I do, but will do so if there is going to be a real benefit."

In other words, is there really any point to that thing Randy just released?

[Grasshopper]

You said the A-PAC was in development months ago, and the GP-Wiz thread didn't exist, but only about a month ago, (in the GP-Wiz (not GP-Wiz49) thread) Andy stated that gamepads didn't work well in MAME as an interface.  So he was saying they didn't work well at the same time he was developing (or getting ready to release) a product based on the concept.

I think you're being unfair. What choice does Andy have?

If you want to develop an analogue interface then at this point in time you really have only two viable options -  use the old gameport/midi interface or make use of the USB HID standard. Gameport interfaces are slowly disappearing so that leaves USB HID devices.

[Flinkly]

i'd have to counter your argument monkeybomb.  randy's interface is still very viable if you look at the fact that there aren't yet that many games that require analog sticks, and some that do don't run.  also, analog sticks are in the hundreds, where 49-ways are 30 bucks.  i'd still get the 49 interface just due to price, but also, it doesn't make sense to me to pay 200-300 more for something i'll rarely use.  after that though, i'd love to pay 200-300 for a star wars yoke.

[Tiger-Heli]

On other boards, I could easily see RandyT's posts in this thread getting moderated as trolls.

I thought a troll was someone who pretended to be a member just to stir up controversy, not a contributing member with over 1,000 posts.

I'm honestly curious what RandyT feels he needs to prove by hi-jacking this thread.  If anyone disagree's with my hi-jacking statement please feel free to count postings by each.  Before I began writing this response, Andy had 5 posts including the one starting this thread, RandyT had 6.

You might feel differently if you viewed the thread as started by one of your competitors with the express intention of determining whether it was worth his time to try to steal your intellectual property, which I think RandyT does. 

And lets remember that Dave's AKI interface predated both products but I haven't seen any posts by Dave busting anyones chops for others more or less copying his work

Dave keeps a much lower profile.

(I concede that my understanding is that Dave's AKI interface didn't show up as a gamepad).

Your understanding is incorrect - The AKI is similar to the A-PAC - an analog and gamepad interface.  Daveb's 49-way interface is similar to the GP-Wiz49, but I don't know if it has button inputs or not.

[Grasshopper]

While Andy did make a few comments on the GP49 announcement thread I don't feel  that i've ever seen any of Andy's posts that were as agressive or openly confrontational as RandyT's.  On other boards, I could easily see RandyT's posts in this thread getting moderated as trolls.

I have to say that I totally agree with that. I've re-read Andy's original post several times and I honestly believe he went out of his way not to be confrontational. I really don't think he could have been more diplomatic. He's merely seeking feedback from potential customers to see what their requirements are. As others have said this is good business practice.

[monkeybomb]

i'd have to counter your argument monkeybomb.  randy's interface is still very viable if you look at the fact that there aren't yet that many games that require analog sticks, and some that do don't run.  also, analog sticks are in the hundreds, where 49-ways are 30 bucks.  i'd still get the 49 interface just due to price, but also, it doesn't make sense to me to pay 200-300 more for something i'll rarely use.  after that though, i'd love to pay 200-300 for a star wars yoke.

Sorry about that

I should have used quotes.  I think there is a point to the product.  I want one and I hope to get one soon. 

I was refuting the post about thread hi-jacking not the product.

[SirPeale]

Hey Peale, hand over some of that popcorn...

* Peale hands some popcorn, and asks for a Pepsi

[Tiger-Heli]

You said the A-PAC was in development months ago, and the GP-Wiz thread didn't exist, but only about a month ago, (in the GP-Wiz (not GP-Wiz49) thread) Andy stated that gamepads didn't work well in MAME as an interface.  So he was saying they didn't work well at the same time he was developing (or getting ready to release) a product based on the concept.

I think you're being unfair. What choice does Andy have?

If you want to develop an analogue interface then at this point in time you really have only two viable options -  use the old gameport/midi interface or make use of the USB HID standard. Gameport interfaces are slowly disappearing so that leaves USB HID devices.

You missed my point.  I never argued that an analog interface shouldn't be a USB interface.

My point was that if he was developing one on his own, he shouldn't be posting that they sucked for MAME in the GP-Wiz thread while his own solution was being developed.

[RandyT]

While Andy did make a few comments on the GP49 announcement thread I don't feel  that i've ever seen any of Andy's posts that were as agressive or openly confrontational as RandyT's.  On other boards, I could easily see RandyT's posts in this thread getting moderated as trolls.

Well, it's a personality issue really.  Some folks you can never really get to know (or trust), while others will put things right out on the table so you can make an informed assessment.  Likewise, some folks will smack you in the chops for insulting their wives, and others will smile and wait until you aren't looking before they stick a shiv between your ribs.  The example is a little extreme, but you get the idea.

I'm honestly curious what RandyT feels he needs to prove by hi-jacking this thread.  If anyone disagree's with my hi-jacking statement please feel free to count postings by each.  Before I began writing this response, Andy had 5 posts including the one starting this thread, RandyT had 6. 

It's a history lesson that I'm not going to type out for you.  It's all here.  Just read and put yourself in the shoes of the person you wish to condemn.

Going back to earlier posts about folks copying others, I guess I don't see it the same way.

So. I take it you are not an IP attorney

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

i'd have to counter your argument monkeybomb.  randy's interface is still very viable if you look at the fact that there aren't yet that many games that require analog sticks, and some that do don't run.  also, analog sticks are in the hundreds, where 49-ways are 30 bucks.  i'd still get the 49 interface just due to price, but also, it doesn't make sense to me to pay 200-300 more for something i'll rarely use.  after that though, i'd love to pay 200-300 for a star wars yoke.

Flinkly,

You missed what Andy is developing.   If he successfully makes an Analog joystick that can be limited in firmware to digital throw and 4-way and 8-way modes, then it essentially works for all the joystick games in mame^TM including yoke and pot-based steering wheel games, analog joystick and digital joystick.  Whether he can pull that off, we don't know yet.

Peale,

When you finish the Pepsi, how come my IP address is posted and everone else's says "logged" and how do I fix it.

[Grasshopper]

You said the A-PAC was in development months ago, and the GP-Wiz thread didn't exist, but only about a month ago, (in the GP-Wiz (not GP-Wiz49) thread) Andy stated that gamepads didn't work well in MAME as an interface.  So he was saying they didn't work well at the same time he was developing (or getting ready to release) a product based on the concept.

I think you're being unfair. What choice does Andy have?

If you want to develop an analogue interface then at this point in time you really have only two viable options -  use the old gameport/midi interface or make use of the USB HID standard. Gameport interfaces are slowly disappearing so that leaves USB HID devices.

You missed my point.  I never argued that an analog interface shouldn't be a USB interface.

My point was that if he was developing one on his own, he shouldn't be posting that they sucked for MAME in the GP-Wiz thread while his own solution was being developed.

IIRC (and I really can't be bothered to look up the thread) he didn't say they 'sucked for MAME' he merely said that a keyboard interface is preferable for digital devices, something I agree with.

[monkeybomb]

tiger click your address it will say this

"Your IP address is shown only to you and moderators. Remember that this information is not identifying, and that most IPs change periodically.

You cannot see other members' IP addresses, and they cannot see yours."

[Tiger-Heli]

IIRC (and I really can't be bothered to look up the thread) he didn't say they 'sucked for MAME' he merely said that a keyboard interface is preferable for digital devices, something I agree with.

Quote from Andy:

I can offer a reason for this. I designed an analog gamepad USB device with a shedload of buttons last year. The Mini-PAC board has the hardware capability of analog but it's not used by the firmware. But then I shelved the whole thing. The reason was I found that apps, including MAME don't seem to perform well when there is an analog gamepad device present. I did not do much research on the cause of this problem, whether it was Windows or the app itself. The problem is, so few games use analog that having a performance hit on the vast majority that don't use it, was unacceptable. I get quite a few emails from people complaining about button sticking or mouse (trackball) stuttering and the solution is usually "turn off joystick support".
I might do some more investigation into this at some point.

Posted in the GP-Wiz intro thread here: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,31677.msg270941.html#msg270941, reply #53 on 10Feb05

[CheffoJeffo]

Tis is why he had to hi-jack the thread.

"Do I need to add electronic division of the analog circle into 4 or 8 sectors? I don't think I do, but will do so if there is going to be a real benefit."

In other words, is there really any point to that thing Randy just released?

Selective editing (as is mine below) ... he wasn't asserting that Randy was wrong, he was asking what he was missing ...

I am genuinely interested in this subject and I think I am missing something.

This statement is pretty clear and Andy admits that he may be missing something ... after that admission, is there much need for the character assassination  ? 

This goes both ways ... there is certainly no need to characterize Randy as a troll ... I've learned a lot from his postings and he has cool products.

If we keep on with "(R)andy is good, [R]andy is bad" stuff, we'll be left with fewer suppliers posting here, and that would be a loss for all of us.

Cheers.

[Tiger-Heli]

tiger click your address it will say this

"Your IP address is shown only to you and moderators. Remember that this information is not identifying, and that most IPs change periodically.

You cannot see other members' IP addresses, and they cannot see yours."

Ah, thanks!  If I click on it Firefox crashes, probably b/c both it and Proxomitron are preventing pop-ups!

[monkeybomb]

Tis is why he had to hi-jack the thread.

"Do I need to add electronic division of the analog circle into 4 or 8 sectors? I don't think I do, but will do so if there is going to be a real benefit."

In other words, is there really any point to that thing Randy just released?

Selective editing (as is mine below) ... he wasn't asserting that Randy was wrong, he was asking what he was missing ...

I am genuinely interested in this subject and I think I am missing something.

This statement is pretty clear and Andy admits that he may be missing something ... after that admission, is there much need for the character assassination  ? 

This goes both ways ... there is certainly no need to characterize Randy as a troll ... I've learned a lot from his postings and he has cool products.

If we keep on with "(R)andy is good, [R]andy is bad" stuff, we'll be left with fewer suppliers posting here, and that would be a loss for all of us.

Cheers.

To me he is saying that he missed the point of what Randy did. That comes with implications.  Read it how you want, I'm dyslexic anyway.  (For real I am)

As for pointing out how important they both are to us, I couldn't agree more.

[Tiger-Heli]

To me he is saying that he missed the point of what Randy did. That comes with implications.  Read it how you want, I'm dyslexic anyway.  (For real I am)
As for pointing out how important they both are to us, I couldn't agree more.

Monkeybomb, you have it right.  You have to look at the history.

First in the GP-Wiz49 thread, there was this post (technically by Lotus, but it sure sounds like AndyWarne's point-of-view, and RandyT hinted at that and it was never responded to):

Just have to de-lurk at this point..
I think we need to remember that it is conventional wisdom that the definition of an 8-way and 4-way stick is mechanical not electronic. The feel of the stick, ie not allowing the corners and being able to slide over the restrictor plate is why the sticks are different and why the T-Stick and even GGGs own 4-8 stick exist. So logically locking the diagonals does not gain much over what MAME already does.
I suspect that in this case the switching is necessary not to add any "feel" but because the 49-way stick is emulating the regular stick through an analog interface. So it's an extra hassle which does not result in an overall gain.
I suspect that if this was simply aimed at being a 49-way stick interface for anyone who wants such a stick, for games that use one, then it would have been accepted here with less of the "trial by fire". It's a great product for this basic purpose.

Basically saying "That interface should work great for 49-way games, but not for anything else."

Then there's today's post by Andy saying basically:  "I still don't understand why or if this DRS stuff works, but if it does I'll include it on my new analog stick that I'm releasing."

Of course that's highly edited and paraphrased, but you can see why it garnered the response it did.

[CheffoJeffo]

<\shrugs>

Peale ... trade you a beer for some popcorn ...

[chasmosis]

So. I take it you are not an IP attorney

And proud of it.

[Lilwolf]

actually hes right.

mame does act weird with -joystick enabled in some cases.  I think when you are using a mouse also.  (like mouse games with joystick enabled when you aren't using them).

I DEFINATELY have seen some stuff.  And its more obvious recently since I added hotswap to a Daves AKI board.  Since its now turned on all the time... I have to make sure to remove the -joystick for any games using it. 

But I think it might be the analog itself.  Because I don't remember seeing the same problems with my 49 way interface installed.  It might ahve to do with when values change or something. 

Anyway... I've seen it...

[mrdriver]

Randy,
I was merely trying to point out earlier, that I know for a FACT, that A.W was only trying to establish if there were any real advantages of using an interface like yours combined with a 49-way stick in MAME (other than 49-way games of course). Myself and many others I'm sure, have been wondering the same since you announced your 49-way interface a few weeks ago. In no way am I knocking your product

It was nothing more than a genuine interest to understand something that until recently I had not given much thought. People are bound to be interested in how your product works and if it's worth buying.

I'm amazed that you reacted to my post in the way you did? There goes yet another potential customer.

[Tiger-Heli]

I was merely trying to point out earlier, that I know for a FACT, that A.W was only trying to establish if there were any real advantages of using an interface like yours combined with a 49-way stick in MAME (other than 49-way games of course).

14 pages of replies couldn't do that for him?

[RandyT]

I'm amazed that you reacted to my post in the way you did?

I'm amazed that you're amazed.  But not really, considering you magically appeared to take Andy's side of things and apparently live next door to him.

There goes yet another potential customer.

Considering your immediate demonstration of bias, there was never any "potential" there anyway.  You were just "bringing your own stick to hornet nest poking party"

RandyT

[mrdriver]

Hey whatever, there is no need for all this petty squabling. This sort of thing should be fun. And for what it's worth, I have known Andy for a few years and he seems like a decent & honest bloke to me.

[Hoopz]

Anybody got another stick?  I think we broke the first one on the proverbial dead horse... lol

[NoOne=NBA=]

Never underestimate the value of "ad hominem nonsense".

It's often how world leaders are elected

History is influenced much more by the silent, than the vocal.

That was the basis behind Edmund Burke's quote "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil  is that good men do nothing".

[SirPeale]

Peale,

When you finish the Pepsi, how come my IP address is posted and everone else's says "logged" and how do I fix it.

It's not posted; it's visible to only you.

[Kremmit]

Jeez, I go away for a day...

Damn if I'm gonna go back through this whole thread to dig up all the quotes from stuff I'd like to reply to, but:

re: Andy's original question:
As I said in This Post,

"Of course, there's the question of whether or not it's worth doing anyway.  ... plus the fact that they (edit: analog sticks) feel NOTHING like a regular digital joystick, more like flopping a wet noodle around.  Even with the software restriction, the long throw and lack of resistance would probably make 2,4, & 8 way games unplayable on an analog stick."

So, since your stick design will have physical restriction, all you have to overcome is the long throw (could be handled by the physical restriction as well), and the lack of restistance.  Current arcade analogs are way too loose for digital joystick games.  Fix those problems, and you've got a candidate for electronic restriction. 

re:  49-way testing & DRS^tm:
Yup, it makes a difference.  Play is improved by DRS^tm.  Any stick with resolution greater than the stick the game was originally programmed for should play better with electronic restriction.  I still like the feel of physical restriction, but that's because I'm an authenticity nut.  Still, I found 4 and 8-way games to play just fine with the DRS^tm system.

re:  Custom grid mappings (what you think works, doesn't; and what you think wouldn't, does)
I believe that what Randy found was that the mechanics of the 49-way sticks were such that pushing the stick exactly 1/3 of the way left and 1/3 of the way up didn't necessarily register electronically as the diagonal in the first circle of grid squares, and the same for pushing the stick exactly 2/3 of the way.  In other words, the electronic grids didn't match up exactly with the position of the stick handle, and this is why his grid mappings aren't divided up exactly the way one would cut them up if they only had a picture of the grid in front of them, and no access to the actual stick for testing.  So, since his custom grid mappings were determined by the mechanical properties of the two 49-way sticks, it follows that grid mappings for an electronic restriction system for an analog stick would have no connection to the ones used by the GP-49.  (Randy- feel free to correct me if I've botched this part- and thanks for taking the time to get the grids right, for both varieties of the stick. )

re: Intellectual Property theft:
Andy asked aboud implementing electronic restriction as part of an ANALOG joystick.  Randy has electronic restriction implemented as part of a 49-WAY INTERFACE.  One product is a stick, the other is an interface.  One product is for 49-way sticks, one product is for analog sticks.  The only thing they have in common is the use of electronic restriction.  Furthermore, since one product would be implementing electronic restriction on a 256x256 grid, and one would be implementing it on a 7x7 grid, there's no chance that the top-secret grid mappings are being stolen.  Unless Randy wants to claim the very concept of electronic restriction is his IP (and I can't imagine he does), then there's no theft of IP possible here.  Including an electronic restriction mode that forces the analog stick to work in a "49-way mode".  That MIGHT make the GP-49 obsolete (might, might, MIGHT!), but it's definately not a function the GP-49, or any other product I know of currently has, so again, no IP theft.

re:  copycat products

Omni-Stick Prodigy vs. T-Stick+
One switchable with visable mechanism, for instant visual feedback and ease-of use.  One switchable with invisible mechanism, for a cleaner appearance. Different products.

Omni-Stick Prodigy vs. Euro-Stick
Above panel switching vs. underpanel switching.  Different products.

Keywiz vs. I-Pac2
One PS/2 only, one USB + PS/2.  One with constant-on keyboard pass-thru, one with switched pass-thru.  28 inputs, 32 inputs.  Etc.  Different products.

Keywiz Eco vs. I-Pac VE
USB vs. PS/2, 32 inputs vs. 28.  Etc.  Different products.

GP-Wiz vs. A-Pac
Digital only gamepad encoder vs. Analog capable gamepad encoder.  Different products.

GP-Wiz49 vs. A-Pac
49-way capable gamepad encoder vs. Analog capable gamepad encoder.  Different products.

GP-Wiz49 vs. Andy's proposed new analog stick
Encoder vs. stick.  Different products.

Shucks, the meat of all those old threads that've been dug up is largely about why one product or the other is superior to the competing one; hence, they're different, by the manufacturers' own arguements.  Nobody's copying anybody. If everybody's making these products, there's gonna be some cross-over, but they've all got their own special niche.  Nobody's selling anything that's technically or functionally identical to their competitors' products.  (including Dave's products, which I haven't mentioned, since he's not here.)

re:  Kremmit loves everybody.
Randy and Andy (hey, never noticed that before  ), I hope neither of you feels like I'm picking on you or taking sides here.  I've got two Ultimarc encoders, two Ultimarc sticks, to GGG encoders, one GGG stick, and two Druin's, to boot.  My current shopping list includes products from both vendors, as well.  I'll use anything that works, and every product I've used from either of you has worked well. 

re: sitting back and watching the fur fly:
Can I get a Pepsi and some popcorn too?  No, wait, I want a beer with my popcorn.  Two beers.  Hell, beers for everybody!

[RandyT]

re: Intellectual Property theft:
Andy asked aboud implementing electronic restriction as part of an ANALOG joystick.  Randy has electronic restriction implemented as part of a 49-WAY INTERFACE.  One product is a stick, the other is an interface.  One product is for 49-way sticks, one product is for analog sticks.  The only thing they have in common is the use of electronic restriction.  Furthermore, since one product would be implementing electronic restriction on a 256x256 grid, and one would be implementing it on a 7x7 grid, there's no chance that the top-secret grid mappings are being stolen.  Unless Randy wants to claim the very concept of electronic restriction is his IP (and I can't imagine he does), then there's no theft of IP possible here.  Including an electronic restriction mode that forces the analog stick to work in a "49-way mode".  That MIGHT make the GP-49 obsolete (might, might, MIGHT!), but it's definately not a function the GP-49, or any other product I know of currently has, so again, no IP theft.

The joystick needs an interface for it to operate.

Here's where the lawyers would probably see it differently from what you stated:

No other product has ever used this methodology to make the joystick "smart" and allow it to transform into another type of joystick at the interface level.  It makes no difference whether resolution of the stick is 49 or 49,000.  The methodology is the same and the simple fact is, if you originally said it had no value and don't know how it works or why anyone would want it, then it isn't yours.

If the same functionality were talked about being implemented as a driver on the computer side in support of this new joystick, then there would be no discussion.  But .well...that's why there's a controversy here.

RandyT

[Kremmit]

Unless Randy wants to claim the very concept of electronic restriction is his IP (and I can't imagine he does), then there's no theft of IP possible here. 

So, you do want to claim electronic restriction is your IP?

*Kremmit opens another beer*

[paigeoliver]

re: Intellectual Property theft:
Andy asked aboud implementing electronic restriction as part of an ANALOG joystick.  Randy has electronic restriction implemented as part of a 49-WAY INTERFACE.  One product is a stick, the other is an interface.  One product is for 49-way sticks, one product is for analog sticks.  The only thing they have in common is the use of electronic restriction.  Furthermore, since one product would be implementing electronic restriction on a 256x256 grid, and one would be implementing it on a 7x7 grid, there's no chance that the top-secret grid mappings are being stolen.  Unless Randy wants to claim the very concept of electronic restriction is his IP (and I can't imagine he does), then there's no theft of IP possible here.  Including an electronic restriction mode that forces the analog stick to work in a "49-way mode".  That MIGHT make the GP-49 obsolete (might, might, MIGHT!), but it's definately not a function the GP-49, or any other product I know of currently has, so again, no IP theft.

The joystick needs an interface for it to operate.

Here's where the lawyers would probably see it differently from what you stated:

No other product has ever used this methodology to make the joystick "smart" and allow it to transform into another type of joystick at the interface level.  It makes no difference whether resolution of the stick is 49 or 49,000.  The methodology is the same and the simple fact is, if you originally said it had no value and don't know how it works or why anyone would want it, then it isn't yours.

If the same functionality were talked about being implemented as a driver on the computer side in support of this new joystick, then there would be no discussion.  But .well...that's why there's a controversy here.

RandyT

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG

There are dozens and dozens of PC gamepads and playstation gamepads with analog sticks that change to 8-way mode with the press of the button. You did not invent that idea. Sorry, not even close.

I have one sitting in my backpack right now that I bought a couple YEARS before people were even talking about 49-way interfaces.

SO I guess no other product has EVER done that, except for the hundreds of high end gamepads, flight sticks and industrial joysticks that have done so for years and years.

[Tiger-Heli]

Jeez, I go away for a day...

Kremmit, nice summary and good technical info without "fueling the fire".  One correction:

Keywiz Eco vs. I-Pac VE
USB vs. PS/2, 32 inputs vs. 28.  Etc.  Different products.

S/b:
Keywiz Eco vs. I-Pac VE
USB vs. PS/2, 32 inputs vs. 32.  Screw terminals vs. Pin header.  LED's vs. no LED's.  Etc.  Different products.

Although, price and feature-wise, the I-PAC VE stacks up better (and aligns closer) with the KeyWiz Max 1.5.

And I am only adding this post to point out that you got the number of inputs wrong on the I-PAC VE.

[AndyWarne]

Well I come back here to find that the attack has sunk to the level of attributing posts to me that I did not even make!
Oh well..

On the subject of copying: As I said, the thought that my intention regarding analog sticks would be interpreted as copying and/or IP theft did not even occur to me. Even I am not stupid enough to post here "I have a plan to steal the design of someone else, who is well known here, what do you think?".
Applying electronic mapping to an analog stick seemed to me something rather obvious and even trivial, not a revolutionary concept. It's something that I have thought about many times before but not really pursued because I (incorrectly as it happens) thought that it would have little value in gameplay.
Andy

[Hoagie_one]

Applying electronic mapping to an analog stick seemed to me something rather obvious and even trivial, not a revolutionary concept.

i thought it was rather revolutionary

[paigeoliver]

Applying electronic mapping to an analog stick seemed to me something rather obvious and even trivial, not a revolutionary concept.

i thought it was rather revolutionary

SO revolutionary that they have been doing it on gamepads for years.

[RandyT]

Applying electronic mapping to an analog stick seemed to me something rather obvious and even trivial, not a revolutionary concept.

i thought it was rather revolutionary

SO revolutionary that they have been doing it on gamepads for years.

Paige,

Please give me the name of the joystick/gamepad that does what you are saying so that we can make a proper comparison.   If it's true, I will withdraw that assertion.

Thanks,
Randy

[JoyMonkey]

This thread reminds me of the political threads in the Everything Else forum during last years election.
Why can't we all just get along?