New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)

[RandyT]

maybe, I just followed the instruction I got on the paper from the order. Is Willians and Midway different? If so, how can I correct this?

The joystick I ordred, was direct from groovy game gear's shop.

Confused a little on the Midway portion.

Williams and Happ are different.  I though GGG sold the Happ version, which should be the same as Midway.   I would think the instructions would be for the Happ/Midway version (at least for the version GGG sells), but dunno.

ALL of the sticks are wired the same.

The interface will adapt itself to proper operation when it senses which stick is plugged into it.

If the stick is not at the "home" position when it is plugged into the computer, it could falsely identify it.  Unplugging and re-plugging it in with the stick at "rest" will allow it to recognize the proper stick.

I am working with SpaceFractal to see what his snag is.

RandyT

[RandyT]

From my limited knowledge of these, that sounds like you have it hooked up like the Williams instead of the Happs, or vice versa.

You were close. They don't need to be hooked up differently, but the stick is indeed being sensed as a Williams.  I just verified it with my setup.

This most likely comes about from wiring the stick while it is connected to the system.  Unplugging and re-attaching the USB cable will solve the problem.

Wire first + connect second =  no problems.

RandyT

[Space Fractal]

I did wired first, before I plugged on. I tried many unplugs and reattach the USB cable about 4-5 times (while testing deficent joymode).

I may try to plug, and turn on the computer, when I got the change, and try again. The joystick itself work fine and it move fine (and calibrated fine), it just didden't register the very center.

I'm wen't back, when I have a change to test it again..

[RandyT]

I did wired first, before I plugged on. I tried many unplugs and reattach the USB cable about 4-5 times (while testing deficent joymode).

I may try to plug, and turn on the computer, when I got the change, and try again. The joystick itself work fine and it move fine (and calibrated fine), it just didden't register the very center.

I'm wen't back, when I have a change to test it again..

Ok then.  The jury is still out.  I need to do some one on one with SpaceFractal on this one.  It is being sensed as a Williams stick, but it sounds as though it is due to another reason.

Let's take this to email. 

Thanks,
RandyT

[Space Fractal]

no, I tested this on a another computer and plugged the joystick the real way, and it now works.

It was my fault... I may not have centred the joystick, wheni plugged in first time, and there were problems with that.

Sorry I  wrote here, but it to late.

Now I can't wat to install it completly finheds and play with my new joystick 

[Toonces]

I think this might have gotten lost in the noise from my previous posts.

Randy, do you have the graphic you use to show the modes? The same one printed on the bottom of the page sent with the GP-49 only in color? I want to use that as a legend on my control panel.

Thanks!

MAN THIS THING IS FREAKIN GOOD!

[RandyT]

I think this might have gotten lost in the noise from my previous posts.

Randy, do you have the graphic you use to show the modes? The same one printed on the bottom of the page sent with the GP-49 only in color? I want to use that as a legend on my control panel.

Yes I do.  It's in vector form, but not in color. 

What color scheme would you like?

RandyT

[Toonces]

I think this might have gotten lost in the noise from my previous posts.

Randy, do you have the graphic you use to show the modes? The same one printed on the bottom of the page sent with the GP-49 only in color? I want to use that as a legend on my control panel.

Yes I do.  It's in vector form, but not in color. 

What color scheme would you like?

The standard Blue and Red with a white background works for me I can also use it in vector format (unless you don't want to give that out, I understand). My cab has 2 nice places that are covered in Glass to hold just such instructions

Thanks!

Toonces
RandyT

[Space Fractal]

I have plans to doing the a same, but with a black background and white text (just a invert). I can "color" them my self.

[Paul Olson]

This most likely comes about from wiring the stick while it is connected to the system.  Unplugging and re-attaching the USB cable will solve the problem.

Wire first + connect second =  no problems.

I am working on a modular panel, so the sticks would be plugged in quite often, possibly different sticks.  Is there a way to make it detect the stick without unplugging the USB cable?

Paul

[RandyT]

This most likely comes about from wiring the stick while it is connected to the system.  Unplugging and re-attaching the USB cable will solve the problem.

Wire first + connect second =  no problems.

I am working on a modular panel, so the sticks would be plugged in quite often, possibly different sticks.  Is there a way to make it detect the stick without unplugging the USB cable?

If you are talking about unplugging from the interface, I don't know about the long term effects of doing that with a 49-way.  But in any case, you would need to have the 49-way connected when the system is first turned on after powerdown.  After that, the GP-Wiz49 will know which one it is talking to, even if it disconnected afterwards.

RandyT

[Kremmit]

You know, 16 way DRS may still prove useful.  I just remembered somebody was asking about Intellivision controllers a while back, and mentioned they had 16 directions.  Anybody know if Intellivision emulators handle 16 directions from an analog joystick?

[Paul Olson]

Thanks for replying.  Is there any way to force it to see a certain stick?  The 49way sticks may not always be plugged in during boot (probably won't be, in fact).  If I only use the Happs 49ways, is there a way to disable the autodetect, and just default to the Happs.  This way (I think) I could just plug the 49way in at any time.

Thanks, Paul

[RandyT]

I don't really think there's any value trying to talk someone (me) out of the rotary switch idea...

Ok, the firmware is ready for this switching method


See this thread


RandyT

[millercentral]

All this work to make software switching work. Wouldn't it be easier/more-elegent just to add an IOCTL command to the firmware to allow mode setting over the USB connection?

[Tiger-Heli]

All this work to make software switching work. Wouldn't it be easier/more-elegent just to add an IOCTL command to the firmware to allow mode setting over the USB connection?

Now we're talking!!!!

I think all the work that Toonces has done is great (for a dedicated computer in an arcade cab), but . . .

I have a desktop controller and a standard PC that I play MAME games on.  To use Toonces idea, at minimum, I would have to unplug my scanner from the parallel port and plug in the cable for the relay board (or buy a USB scanner  ).  Then to connect the panel I would have to plug in two USB connections for the GP-Wiz49's, plus the DB25 cable for the relay board, plus a 12Volt power wire for the relay board, and disconnect all that when I am done.

If USB programming to change modes were supported, presumably, I could have the two GP-Wiz49's connected to a mini-hub inside the CP and then just have one USB cable to plug in. . .

[RandyT]

All this work to make software switching work. Wouldn't it be easier/more-elegent just to add an IOCTL command to the firmware to allow mode setting over the USB connection?

I have been looking into this for a while now.  Much progress has been made in the last 24hrs.

I think everything Toonces has done is great, and will serve a number of users who use operating systems other than Windows well, and I'd like to publicly thank him for his efforts.

But for Windows, I am on the verge of having a working application for software switching via the USB bus.  I am successfully communicating with the device under Win98SE.  2K/XP is currently unknown, but should work as well.


More info as it becomes available.

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

But for Windows, I am on the verge of having a working application for software switching via the USB bus.  I am successfully communicating with the device under Win98SE.  2K/XP is currently unknown, but should work as well.
More info as it becomes available.
RandyT

Awesome!!!! Thanks Randy!!!!

[Flinkly]

good thing i've held off from getting this unique peice of hardware...maybe i should wait another couple months, just in case it becomes a wireless encoder.   

[Tiger-Heli]

good thing i've held off from getting this unique peice of hardware...maybe i should wait another couple months, just in case it becomes a wireless encoder.   

Another cool idea!!! uh, Randy???

[RandyT]

good thing i've held off from getting this unique peice of hardware...maybe i should wait another couple months, just in case it becomes a wireless encoder.   

Another cool idea!!! uh, Randy???

(Kaff!)

....not gonna happen......

RandyT

[Toonces]

All this work to make software switching work. Wouldn't it be easier/more-elegent just to add an IOCTL command to the firmware to allow mode setting over the USB connection?

I have been looking into this for a while now.  Much progress has been made in the last 24hrs.

I think everything Toonces has done is great, and will serve a number of users who use operating systems other than Windows well, and I'd like to publicly thank him for his efforts.

But for Windows, I am on the verge of having a working application for software switching via the USB bus.  I am successfully communicating with the device under Win98SE.  2K/XP is currently unknown, but should work as well.


More info as it becomes available.

RandyT

That's GREAT Randy! It's been fun messing with the Parallel port and relay interfacing but USB control of the modes is even better! If you haven't already planned it, please make sure your application can be run from a command line with the desired mode selection. An app that is purely a gui doesn't help much if you can't call it from a Front End 

Thanks for the great piece of hardware! It's really nice to have a decent switchable stick!

Now about those balltop handles.....

Is the difference between Happ & Midway sticks in the diameter or length?

Thanks!

Toonces

[RandyT]

That's GREAT Randy! It's been fun messing with the Parallel port and relay interfacing but USB control of the modes is even better! If you haven't already planned it, please make sure your application can be run from a command line with the desired mode selection. An app that is purely a gui doesn't help much if you can't call it from a Front End 

It definitely will be.  The plan is for the software to over-ride all the other settings.  I also plan to be able to select the mode through software ( Williams or Happ)

Thanks for the great piece of hardware! It's really nice to have a decent switchable stick!

Thank you again for all the effort you put into supporting the switching methods.  I'm sure the concepts will still be of good use for users of other operating systems/applications.

Now about those balltop handles.....

Is the difference between Happ & Midway sticks in the diameter or length?

Primarily the diameter of the lower shaft (the Midway is thinner.)  IIRC, the length was pretty much the same. 

For those who have been following, I did contact my machinist as to where my samples were, and he told me to look for them tomorrow.  So we're getting closer.

RandyT

[Flinkly]

i was thinkin...if 49-ways are so good at acting like most other controls for arcade games, why not make an analog interface?  then you could play analog games, 49 way games, 8 way games, 4 way games, and 2 way games.  would this just be incredibly hard or tedious?  and i know analog controls are really expensive, at least the ones we would stick in our arcade machines, but i think we could even overcome that step when the time comes.

so whats your opinion, randy?

p.s.  i know you could kinda do this with the analog interfaces already out, but none can "switch modes" like randy's 49 way interface.

[RandyT]

i was thinkin...if 49-ways are so good at acting like most other controls for arcade games, why not make an analog interface?  then you could play analog games, 49 way games, 8 way games, 4 way games, and 2 way games.  would this just be incredibly hard or tedious?  and i know analog controls are really expensive, at least the ones we would stick in our arcade machines, but i think we could even overcome that step when the time comes.

so whats your opinion, randy?

p.s.  i know you could kinda do this with the analog interfaces already out, but none can "switch modes" like randy's 49 way interface.

I think I touched on this one already earlier in the thread.  But one of the major things is the cost of the stick.  The other is that instead of 49-positions to manipulate, you would have 65,536 positions to parse.

Also, no comparitively priced analog stick will be able to stand up to the durability of the 49-way.  Analog sticks use potentiometers for position sensing.  These will wear out over time.  The 49-ways are optical, so they don't have this problem.

And finally, there's the practicality side.  There aren't really enough stick based true analog games that don't play well enough in 49-way mode to justify dealing with all of the above. 


RandyT

[Tommy Boy]

There aren't really enough stick based true analog games that don't play well enough in 49-way mode to justify dealing with all of the above.

  Randy -- Just out of curiosity, since you probably have more 49-way playtesting under your belt than anyone at this point, what analog stick-based games don't play well with the Happ 49-ways?  I'm not talking about games like Star Wars which I know don't play well but also were never meant to be played with a stick anyway...

[1UP]

But for Windows, I am on the verge of having a working application for software switching via the USB bus.

[millercentral]

That's GREAT Randy! It's been fun messing with the Parallel port and relay interfacing but USB control of the modes is even better! If you haven't already planned it, please make sure your application can be run from a command line with the desired mode selection. An app that is purely a gui doesn't help much if you can't call it from a Front End

[JackTucky]

Outstanding!  Will the software be compatible with versions of the board that have already shipped?

I'd like to know this as well.  Mine shipped yesterday.

Art

[RandyT]

Outstanding!  Will the software be compatible with versions of the board that have already shipped?

I'd like to know this as well.  Mine shipped yesterday.

I will work something out with folks that have ordered within the last week or so. 

Max users are in good shape as it will only mean a chip swap (cost of chip plus postage at the most.)  Eco users....well, that's why the Ecos cost so little.  But if they are unused, the individuals should contact me.

But please understand that this version is not coming out tomorrow.  I will be holding further shipments until I feel certain that the firmware is in the best state it can be in.  I can then polish the software "as we go".

The firmware is starting to get very complex with the 3 modes this can now operate in, and the application to set them won't be a walk in the park either.

Back to chasing bugs...... 

RandyT

[Kremmit]

I think I touched on this one already earlier in the thread.  But one of the major things is the cost of the stick.  The other is that instead of 49-positions to manipulate, you would have 65,536 positions to parse.

Couldn't you just use some "if X position is greater than 0 and less than 85, then let x position = 43" type of logic handle the grid for you?  That way, you wouldn't have to have rules in place for all 65,536 positions, just a few groups of positions.

Of course, there's the question of whether or not it's worth doing anyway.  Everything you said, plus the cost of true Arcade Analog sticks, plus the fact that the feel NOTHING like a regular digital joystick, more like flopping a wet noodle around.  Even with the software restriction, the long throw and lack of resistance would probably make 2,4, & 8 way games unplayable on an analog stick.

[RandyT]

I think I touched on this one already earlier in the thread.  But one of the major things is the cost of the stick.  The other is that instead of 49-positions to manipulate, you would have 65,536 positions to parse.

Couldn't you just use some "if X position is greater than 0 and less than 85, then let x position = 43" type of logic handle the grid for you?  That way, you wouldn't have to have rules in place for all 65,536 positions, just a few groups of positions.

Of course. Software already does this for analog sticks as that 255x255 grid is already expected to be in use by the controller.  It's just not "tuned" to a specific one.

Of course, there's the question of whether or not it's worth doing anyway.  Everything you said, plus the cost of true Arcade Analog sticks, plus the fact that the feel NOTHING like a regular digital joystick, more like flopping a wet noodle around.  Even with the software restriction, the long throw and lack of resistance would probably make 2,4, & 8 way games unplayable on an analog stick.

I agree.  The whole point is to use true arcade controls, the ones that are time tested and feel as you expect them to.  If that wasn't the case, there are tons of PC-compatible analog sticks out there, any of which can be used right now.  But do the mechanics feel like a true arcade 2/4/8-way and just as importantly perform, like them? 

And if they did, they probably wouldn't feel right for real analog games because of all extra resistance.  So it boil down to a "what would be the point" scenario.

RandyT

[hyiu]

I have spend I-donno-how-much-time to read this thread !!!
whew.... but its always good to see new products !!!
 

I have a question.

I'm planning to put a 4 way (ball top j-stick) and a 8 way (Happs Competition) on my panel for player 1.  On the Happs Comp, I'm also planning to do the "hacky-wackey-mouse-hack" (or some similar name.... means no disrespect, but I really forgot that guy's name) which is basically put the gear at the end of the stick, and hack a mouse on it to play ikari warrior.

now, from what I read here, I can combine the 4 way and the 8 way and it'll feel JUST-AS-GOOD by using the 49 way stick and this new product ?  I would like to know, can I do the same hack with the 49 way stick ??  Can someone post 1 or more pics of the bottom of that 49 way stick (maybe at different angles) ??

ps: switchable is good, but I think I'll mostly enjoy the 4-8 way switch, but not too often using the 16 way, 49 way... etc.

any comments / advises for me ??  Thanks....

and thank you in advance for anyone who can post more details of this stick, and or how its mounted, .... (same drilling positions as the Happs Comp ??)

Thanks...  (sorry if its kinda noob / off topic...)

 

[dabone]

Ok, just got 2 new sticks from happs today.


Now I'm just waiting for Randy to finalize the firmware.

 

The downside.
I've got to build a new control panel (These are replacing tstick pluses.)


Later,
dabone

[Tiger-Heli]

I'm planning to put a 4 way (ball top j-stick) and a 8 way (Happs Competition) on my panel for player 1.  On the Happs Comp, I'm also planning to do the "hacky-wackey-mouse-hack" (or some similar name.... means no disrespect, but I really forgot that guy's name) which is basically put the gear at the end of the stick, and hack a mouse on it to play ikari warrior.

now, from what I read here, I can combine the 4 way and the 8 way and it'll feel JUST-AS-GOOD by using the 49 way stick and this new product ?  I would like to know, can I do the same hack with the 49 way stick ??  Can someone post 1 or more pics of the bottom of that 49 way stick (maybe at different angles) ??

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,20018.0.html

This is the hack you mean.  Personally, I wouldn't recommend attempting it on a 49-way stick.  Two main reasons:

1) Price - It one thing to hack a $9 Hack Comp to avoid paying $60 for an SNK plus the cost of Druin's board.  It's another to hack a $33 stick to do the same thing.

2) Feel - From everthing I've read, the 49-ways feel great for analog, 4-way, 8-way, and 2-way play.  I don't know that the rotary hack would affect that, but I wouldn't want to chance it.

Personally, I would just use the 49-ways on the main panel and the Comp hack on a swappable rotary joystick panel.

[Toonces]

Outstanding!

[RandyT]

Just wanted to update here.  The software is coming along and it's getting close.  Here is a screenshot:

With any luck, I should be done with this by day's end. (anyone have any spare luck??  )

RandyT

[mahuti]

I have a little extra... I got some in a lot with joysticks at one of those insurance fire sales. I'll PM you with it as an attachment.

[Flinkly]

awesome work randy.  if you keep it up, i'd be willing to pay 50 bucks for one.  but i'll gladly pay 35. 

it looks like your making it so it runs wither one joystick or the other.  does it still check on startup?  also, i know you've put alot of hard work into this and i really appreciate it, but what could be done about switching joysticks on the fly?

i feel really bad about posting this since you've worked so hard to make this interface already, so go easy on me with your answer.  also, if you just don't want to work on anything else, i'd understand.  i can always just turn the whole computer off and on.  i just figured a switch would be easy, since any of us who are going to be switching joysticks while turned on would have switchable panels.

again, i am really sorry for asking, and thanks so much for all the stuff you've already give to the community.

[Tiger-Heli]

it looks like your making it so it runs wither one joystick or the other.  does it still check on startup?  also, i know you've put alot of hard work into this and i really appreciate it, but what could be done about switching joysticks on the fly?

I THINK RandyT posted earlier that it will still check at startup, but you can override that through the software, or select it through a command line flag passed to the software, so I would say he's got you covered. . .