New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)

[Flinkly]

yeah, i'd love to see this one in action.  i myself already run off a minipac, so i'd love to not change all the buttons in mame to take advantage of the modes.

[Captain_Dingo]

I'm thinking about getting a couple of these from Randy and setting them up to be software switched, so my frontend can set the proper mode for a game before launching MAME....

There, that's my idea.

[mahuti]

Yeah... a good artists borrow, a great artist steals. The first thing I thought of when I saw this was "rotary switch." I'll give NO=NBA full credit for the momentary dpst mode switch, though.

[Flinkly]

dang, another question.  i was just making up a control panel template for my 49-ways, and was wondering how mame interprets the joysticks.  mostly, do i have to worry about how i orient my williams joysticks, or can i just set that later in mame, like which direction is up and down, etc.  thanks guys for the final bit of help.  i just don't want to spend alot of time cutting it all out and find that i have to redo it all from scratch.

[RandyT]

dang, another question.  i was just making up a control panel template for my 49-ways, and was wondering how mame interprets the joysticks.  mostly, do i have to worry about how i orient my williams joysticks, or can i just set that later in mame, like which direction is up and down, etc.  thanks guys for the final bit of help.  i just don't want to spend alot of time cutting it all out and find that i have to redo it all from scratch.

The GP-Wiz49 expects the connector on both varieties of 49-ways to be to the left when viewed from above the stick.

RandyT

[Hoagie_one]

More on this rotary idea...How about making the actual button on teh rotary switch.  You turn the dial that then press teh dial down.  Any rotary switches like that?

[mahuti]

I imagine that you can find some momentary rotaries, you might have a problem finding a double throw 8 position switch, though. I didn't want to order anything, so I went to my local electronics specialty store and picked up a 12 position rotary (they didn't have any 8s) and a double throw momentary rocker. Now I just have to install it.... I'll test it first, but even that is going to take some time.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Another option would be to have the mode button trigger a relay that would close the contacts for the rotary switch.

That would allow you to use a normal arcade button, but still prevent the rotary from sending a signal when not in programming mode.

----------------------------------------------------

Yet another alternative would be to rotate the rotary switch to an "off" position after programming.
That would keep it from sending button presses during non-programming time as well.

The downside to this is that you couldn't mark, and see, what mode you are currently in via the rotary.

[RandyT]

mahuti:

If you want, I'll look into making some firmware mods for you.  I'm thinking a special version that allows the inputs to be dedicated only to switching, which would be specifically suited to a rotary switch setup.  No need for momentary connections.

Contact me if you are interested.

RandyT

[brandon]

what if you just hardwired the mode switch to always be on? would switching the rotary make it switch modes or does the mode button have to be released first?  if that would work then you could make the GP49 work both ways for those people who dont plan to use the buttons as inputs..   

[1UP]

Wouldn't a couple extra buttons added to your CP look a lot better than a Radio Shack knob?

[Grasshopper]

However, I think the ideal solution would be automatic switching based on the game you've selected.  No muss, no fuss.  Most FEs allow you to send a commandline when you launch a game.  Why don't we work on getting that implemented? 

Agreed, 4/8 way switching in software is the holy grail for me.

[brandon]

well.. maybe RandyT will invent a cheap output board based on the KeyWiz that could be used for driving LEDs, Solonoids(Qbert, T2 recoil), lamps, relays.. etc.. of course you would need something inbetween to change the TTL signal to something with more current or whatever.. but you can find lamp driver board from pinballs and skeeball machine for cheap AFAIK.. in fact I probably have a few mixed with all my junk..

[NoOne=NBA=]

Wouldn't a couple extra buttons added to your CP look a lot better than a Radio Shack knob? 

That depends.
You are talking about EIGHT extra buttons (1 programming, 7 mode), vs. the rotary and ONE button.
Also, the eight button method will not give you ANY clue as to what mode you currently have set.

My vision of the best button-driven solution to this would be a small module that has 7 chicklet-type buttons on it, and 7 LED's, that could be flush mounted to the CP just above the joystick.
This would let you switch modes with a single button press, while allowing you to tell (via the LED readout) what mode you are in.

As far as a software solution goes, let us know when you get it done.

[1UP]

That depends.
You are talking about EIGHT extra buttons (1 programming, 7 mode), vs. the rotary and ONE button.
Also, the eight button method will not give you ANY clue as to what mode you currently have set.

Well...If you have 8 buttons (or 8 joystick switches) somewhere on your CP, you don't need 8 extras...

My vision of the best button-driven solution to this would be a small module that has 7 chicklet-type buttons on it, and 7 LED's, that could be flush mounted to the CP just above the joystick.
This would let you switch modes with a single button press, while allowing you to tell (via the LED readout) what mode you are in.

That sounds absolutely beautiful... ...let us know when you have pics.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Well...If you have 8 buttons (or 8 joystick switches) somewhere on your CP, you don't need 8 extras...

That is the problem, not the solution.
If you've GOT 8 buttons, then you don't NEED the rotary.
For 4-way games I would have, at most, TWO buttons on my CP--and those would be hooked to the I-pac.

My original idea (7 pages, or so, back) was to create a pigtail programmer inside the coin door, which wouldn't affect the CP at all.

That sounds absolutely beautiful... ...let us know when you have pics.

I don't need it.
I'm just trying to help those who do.
I already have an SJC for 49-way; and 2-way, 4-way, 8-way and a Happ's analog stick for my modular system, so it would make no sense for me to replace those.

[Kremmit]

More on this rotary idea...How about making the actual button on teh rotary switch.  You turn the dial that then press teh dial down.  Any rotary switches like that?

That's your Frontiline/Tin Star/Wild Western controller.

[1UP]

That is the problem, not the solution.
If you've GOT 8 buttons, then you don't NEED the rotary.quote]

I would venture that most people have at LEAST 8 buttons on a typical panel.  More likely, they'd have 12 or even 14 including start buttons.  If you have any conventional arcade sticks on board, each of those count as 4 buttons.

Chiclet sized buttons are still taking up space (and would look ugly on an arcade machine, not to mention LEDs or selection knobs which are totally out of place) so why not just add buttons that would actually be functional as GAME buttons?  It just doesn't make sense.

[RandyT]

I would venture that most people have at LEAST 8 buttons on a typical panel.  More likely, they'd have 12 or even 14 including start buttons.  If you have any conventional arcade sticks on board, each of those count as 4 buttons.

Chiclet sized buttons are still taking up space (and would look ugly on an arcade machine, not to mention LEDs or selection knobs which are totally out of place) so why not just add buttons that would actually be functional as GAME buttons?  It just doesn't make sense.

I have to say that I agree here, to an extent.  That was the reasoning I had behind using the selection method I did.

Everyone has lots of buttons and most would be happy to be able to add more.  If you are using a keyboard controller, disconnect the buttons and use the ones from the GP-Wiz49.  If you use two GP-Wiz49 interfaces, you'll have so many buttons that you could ditch the keyboard controller entirely and still have plenty of inputs.  A quick setup with JoytoKey, and you'll never know the difference.

Obviously, to each their own, but that was the thought process behind the current method.  As usual, there are lots of ways to get there and we all know that a home machine doesn't need to be "arcade authentic" with the controls.  I mean, how many 4 player control panels have you seen in the arcades with a big ol' trackball and spinner mounted in the middle of them ?  So I don't think the addition of a small rotary switch will detract too much if one leaned in that direction.   

RandyT

[NoOne=NBA=]

I would venture that most people have at LEAST 8 buttons on a typical panel.  More likely, they'd have 12 or even 14 including start buttons.

Yes.
And again, if they DO, then they don't have to worry about alternative programming methods, or the aesthetics thereof.

On the other side of this, there is a growing movement toward swappable/modular panels that may have NO buttons on them whatsoever.

If you have any conventional arcade sticks on board, each of those count as 4 buttons.

Isn't the entire purpose of the switchability to NOT have those sticks on the panel?
Why would I want to switch the 49-way into 4-way mode if there was a REAL 4-way sitting right next to it?

Chiclet sized buttons are still taking up space (and would look ugly on an arcade machine, not to mention LEDs or selection knobs which are totally out of place)

It's personal preference, but I don't think they would look any more out of place than alot of other stuff I've seen on CP's, yours included.

why not just add buttons that would actually be functional as GAME buttons?

1) You shouldn't need an owner's manual for a CP.
2) You still have NO way of telling which mode you are currently in.

[mahuti]

I don't really think there's any value trying to talk someone (me) out of the rotary switch idea... just as I don't think there's any reason to talk the rest out of using buttons.

See, the thing is, I don't know exactly how I'm going mount the rotary and how it will look, I just know that I want to do it. It's not like it's hard, so I don't see where the back and forth controversy lies. The fact is, I don't have, want, or need 9 buttons (8+1) on my panel. I usually only play games that require 1 or 2 buttons. I don't have a bunch of admin buttons, don't want to add new ones either. I'm a designer. I design really good stuff. If I put it on my panel, it's going to look cool & right. I've seen some overwrought & obnoxious garbage on some panels, but that's not what I do, so don't critique something I haven't even created yet

FWIW I think Randy made the right choice for the market. I'm not debating that. Buttons; they're simple.. I get that. The simplest route doesn't always work, however.... mister rotating 3-panel... you should be the first to accept that fact. That's where I'm at. Arguing the pros & cons is fruitless.... this seems to be a non-issue.

[1UP]

Well, FWIW, I've already figured out the basic design of a circuit that would trigger a set of switches (transistors) when a simple command line is run.  It'll be available when I have time to build a test model.  Very simple, and would be a totally seamless solution.

If your guests have to do anything to select the correct controls, it's already more complicated than you'd want it to be.  I admit that even the two button presses required to switch modes require you to either have extra markings on your CP, an instruction card, or a very good memory.

My cabinet is a little more complicated than your average dedicated/frankenpanel cab, that's true.  But that is the very reason I've been working with Peter Vogels on a custom FE skin for my cabs, so that when a game is selected, it shows you which control panel to use.  It's not perfect, but it's the most user-friendly solution possible without adding several hundred $$ to the cost, and many additional months of development for some type of mechanized system.

I also don't think that there is anything on any of my panels that would not be found on an arcade game.  They are all authentic arcade parts, save for the PC steering wheel.  The combination of controls may not be completely authentic, but less so than your average frankenpanel.  The idea was to offer flexibility, without presenting more controls at one time than are needed for the typical range of games.

Anyway, while many people may value function over arcade authenticity, there are many ways to get both.  I usually try my best to find those ways.  In this case, I think the best method would be to select the modes either with the 49-way itself, or automatically (having the option to manually select if desired).

Randy, there are basically 8 modes now.  Wouldn't it be possible with a little different programming, to have the stick temporarily revert to 8-way mode when the Joymode button is held down, and then assign the 8 modes to those 8 directions, clockwise around the stick?  Starting from Raw49 at top, all the way around to 16 way at UP/LEFT?  That way you'd only need the stick itself, and one button.  A ring of markings around the stick would be all the instruction you'd need.

[Percipio]

mahuti:

If you want, I'll look into making some firmware mods for you.  I'm thinking a special version that allows the inputs to be dedicated only to switching, which would be specifically suited to a rotary switch setup.  No need for momentary connections.

RandyT,

Based on this comment, will the GP-Wiz49 be able to have a firmware upgrade performed at the user's location?  i.e. If I buy one, and you come out with a great fix or feature in firmware I think I would like to have (or need to have), could I flash the firmware at my location?  If not, what are the options?

Thanks!

[RandyT]

mahuti:

If you want, I'll look into making some firmware mods for you.  I'm thinking a special version that allows the inputs to be dedicated only to switching, which would be specifically suited to a rotary switch setup.  No need for momentary connections.

Based on this comment, will the GP-Wiz49 be able to have a firmware upgrade performed at the user's location?  i.e. If I buy one, and you come out with a great fix or feature in firmware I think I would like to have (or need to have), could I flash the firmware at my location?  If not, what are the options?

Only the MAX versions are upgradable and would just need a chip swap.  I don't see anything huge for changes in the near term, but if you would be interested in something like mahuti discussed, you can contact me to make sure you get the functionality you are looking for. 

If there ever is a firmware upgrade (again, MAX only), it would be at a relatively low cost...most likely 4 or 5 dollars delivered.


RandyT

[Percipio]

Only the MAX versions are upgradable and would just need a chip swap.  I don't see anything huge for changes in the near term, but if you would be interested in something like mahuti discussed, you can contact me to make sure you get the functionality you are looking for. 

If there ever is a firmware upgrade (again, MAX only), it would be at a relatively low cost...most likely 4 or 5 dollars delivered.

Great!  The MAX is what I was looking at anyway.  I'm not looking for any particular functionality at this time, just curious about the future.

This will quite easily replace the modular control panel I've been designing.  Thanks for your innovations!

[paigeoliver]

Ok, speaking of firmware upgrade. I just realized a game that is essentially currently missing.

Wizard of Wor. It is 4-way and it has 2 levels of sensitivity in each direction. Seems like it would be really easy to implement into your encoder, although then someone would have to fix mame as well to make it work.

[JODY]

Ok, speaking of firmware upgrade. I just realized a game that is essentially currently missing.

Wizard of Wor. It is 4-way and it has 2 levels of sensitivity in each direction. Seems like it would be really easy to implement into your encoder, although then someone would have to fix mame as well to make it work.

I'm sure Mame would get updated if it was supported.

[Kremmit]

Ok, speaking of firmware upgrade. I just realized a game that is essentially currently missing.

Wizard of Wor. It is 4-way and it has 2 levels of sensitivity in each direction. Seems like it would be really easy to implement into your encoder, although then someone would have to fix mame as well to make it work.

Does Wizard of Wor accept analog input, and actually use both levels of sensitivity?  Or does MAME currently force it to standard 4-way?  If MAME allows both levels of sensetivity with an analog stick, then Raw49 mode ought to do the job.

[JODY]

Ok, speaking of firmware upgrade. I just realized a game that is essentially currently missing.

Wizard of Wor. It is 4-way and it has 2 levels of sensitivity in each direction. Seems like it would be really easy to implement into your encoder, although then someone would have to fix mame as well to make it work.

Does Wizard of Wor accept analog input, and actually use both levels of sensitivity?

[paigeoliver]

Mame has something built in where you can press shift to use the light move.

[JODY]

Mame has something built in where you can press shift to use the light move.

Doesn't work for me.

[millercentral]

I'm not so concerned about the mode selection technique, while software selection support would be excellent, but Randy's built in method sounds fine as well.

What I really want is to be able to determine what mode the controller is currently set to. I'd like to be able to have a multicolor-LED (or maybe a LCD display) that changes color when the stick is switched between 2/4/8/49 modes...

Are there any plans to be able to determin what mode the stick is set to without resetting it?

[paigeoliver]

Mame has something built in where you can press shift to use the light move.

Doesn't work for me.

I just checked, it is implemented as the second button. WHatever your buttun 2 is, just hold that and you can turn in place.

[lustreking]

a quick setup with JoytoKey, and you'll never know the difference.

It has been a while since I've played with JoytoKey.

[Hoagie_one]

Out of curiouslity,  what games need 16way DRS?

[mahuti]

720 was mentioned.

[JODY]

Mame has something built in where you can press shift to use the light move.

Doesn't work for me.

I just checked, it is implemented as the second button. WHatever your buttun 2 is, just hold that and you can turn in place.

That works.  Randy, could you support this as Mame currently stands?  4 way mode with 2 switches each way.  First switch position each way would need to send 2 keys.  Space bar being pushed plus joy position.  Push the joy further and it would act as a standard 4 way.
 

[RandyT]

Mame has something built in where you can press shift to use the light move.

Doesn't work for me.

I just checked, it is implemented as the second button. WHatever your buttun 2 is, just hold that and you can turn in place.

That works.  Randy, could you support this as Mame currently stands?  4 way mode with 2 switches each way.  First switch position each way would need to send 2 keys.  Space bar being pushed plus joy position.  Push the joy further and it would act as a standard 4 way.
 

That's a tall order.  It could be done, but it would be a very specialized mode. 

Wouldn't this be more well suited to software and analog operation?  I.e. anything less than 1/3 the travel would be considered "turning" and beyond that it becomes "movement"?


RandyT

[JODY]

Mame has something built in where you can press shift to use the light move.

Doesn't work for me.

I just checked, it is implemented as the second button. WHatever your buttun 2 is, just hold that and you can turn in place.

That works.

[NoOne=NBA=]

I think analog would feel really sloppy due to the long throw involved, and wouldn't feel right because most of the analog sticks available are trigger sticks.

I think it's highly possible to build one out of an original Pac stick because they used the same design for both sticks, IIRC.
I think they probably just added an extra leaf to the "lego-style" leaf assembly on them.
I'd like to see pictures of one, if anybody has one.