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Author Topic: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)  (Read 136792 times)

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Hoagie_one

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I was kidding about the rotary sticks.

mahuti

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nice cover  :P
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Yes, but in doing so, the device itself is no longer doing the conversions externally.
This means that the computer now has to interpret EVERY command it is given.
The nice thing about this device is that it is capable of outputting DIGITAL signals.
Having a program that would do a post input D-A conversion, would completely bypass this system.

I think that any time spent on a "driver" for this would be better spent rigging external programming software, that would trigger the device to switch modes.
This would require only ONE input from the software, and wouldn't require the computer to perform any conversions DURING the game.


I agree that my suggestion is not the ideal solution. But I get the impression that Randy doesn't want to make any substantial changes to the device at this point.

An external software driver could be written by someone independent of Groovygamegear and would provide a usable interim solution until Randy had the time and resources to come up with something better. And I don't see how he could object as it would cost him nothing and enhance his device's appeal.

Personally I would like to see the device have a ps/2 and/or console mode. Then the driverless option would really make sense.
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NoOne=NBA=

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I agree that my suggestion is not the ideal solution. But I get the impression that Randy doesn't want to make any substantial changes to the device at this point.

Nor does he NEED to.
The device already does exactly what you are saying a program should be written to do--and does it in hardware, no less.
The result is that the computer receives a signal it THINKS came from a digital device.
A program to do what the hardware is already capable of would be a step backwards.



Quote
An external software driver could be written by someone independent of Groovygamegear and would provide a usable interim solution until Randy had the time and resources to come up with something better.

The point I was making is that it would be alot easier to write a program that will pull two input lines low on the interface, and then go dormant, than to write one that will convert the pseudo-analog signals to digital ones.

All the functionality is already built into the device to do exactly what you are suggesting.
You just need a program to trigger it.



Quote
Personally I would like to see the device have a ps/2 and/or console mode. Then the driverless option would really make sense.
Quote

How so?
If it makes sense to not have the console trigger the mode switch, why is it such a priority for the PC?

RandyT

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Just a quick note to let everyone know that the GP-Wiz49 is now shipping.

Thanks for everyone's patience as the last minute features were added and the Williams code was massaged.

I think most of you will like the results. :)


Now that I can breathe a little, I'll attempt to go back through this thread and try to address any unanswered questions.

RandyT


mahuti

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;D Got my shipping notice today. SWEET.
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dema

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Where can you order them? I can't find it on the site.

mahuti

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Here.

You may have to click on the shopping cart icon to find all of the groovy stuff.
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NoOne=NBA=

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Now that I can breathe a little, I'll attempt to go back through this thread and try to address any unanswered questions.

Good Luck!

dema

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Thanks for the link Mahuti. I couldn't find it anywhere.

Flinkly

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yeah, i couldn't for a bit either.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2005, 08:17:03 pm by Flinkly »

mahuti

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Randy, I fixed it for you. Just copy over your old workmap12 and use the attached graphic.

<MAP NAME="wokmap12">
  <AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="65,138,217,170" HREF="http://www.groovygamegear.com/cgi/surfshop/shop.cgi">
   <AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="64,0,216,32" HREF="page9.html">
   <AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="65,44,216,78" HREF="page10.html">
   <AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="65,94,216,125" HREF="page11.html">
</MAP>
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mahuti

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 ;D :laugh: :angel:
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12 Way would require spinning functionality not inherent in the mechanics of a 49 way stick.


*edit; typo correction

What if someone modified it and added the spinner to the bottom of the stick? Like osmeone did with a mouse hack, a cheapo solution, but hey!

All the opticals are, as someone said, is a normal joy with an added "spinner" to the bottom of the shaft.

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RandyT

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Randy, I fixed it for you. Just copy over your old workmap12 and use the attached graphic.

<MAP NAME="wokmap12">
  <AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="65,138,217,170" HREF="http://www.groovygamegear.com/cgi/surfshop/shop.cgi">
   <AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="64,0,216,32" HREF="page9.html">
   <AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="65,44,216,78" HREF="page10.html">
   <AREA SHAPE="RECT" COORDS="65,94,216,125" HREF="page11.html">
</MAP>


You web guys....... :D *EDIT*  Ok, you made it so easy to do, I had no choice but to fix it.  You might need to refresh the page to see the change.

Thanks.  That's is one of the things I planned to do.  The other is a "front page" that will give an option to go directly to the store.


BTW, to anyone interested, I do have the Midway style 49-ways in stock and they are now listed at the store.  Pricing is a couple bucks less than Happ prices.

RandyT
« Last Edit: March 09, 2005, 02:36:42 am by RandyT »

Flinkly

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hey mahuti,

now that you've made it known that you will be the first to recieve yours, you must tell us how this thing really works.  no offense randy, but i'm just looking for assurance from a non biased party.  you better get everything ready mahuti so you can tell us all the day you get it.

dema

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Since I've never used an encoder with screw terminals I had a quick question. How do you wire to the board? Do you crimp a fork onto the end of the wire and then screw it to the board? Do you tin the end of the wire and then just screw onto the exposed wires? Or do you just screw onto the exposed wires? Not a big deal, but I'm trying to determine which GP-Wiz49 to purchase.

RandyT

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Since I've never used an encoder with screw terminals I had a quick question. How do you wire to the board? Do you crimp a fork onto the end of the wire and then screw it to the board? Do you tin the end of the wire and then just screw onto the exposed wires? Or do you just screw onto the exposed wires? Not a big deal, but I'm trying to determine which GP-Wiz49 to purchase.

The easiest and least expensive way is to just strip about 3/16" of insulation from your wire, twist the ends, push it into the terminal and tighten the screw.

You can tin the ends if you want to keep things tidy, but it's not necessary as long as you keep track of the strands so they don't short to adjacent terminals.

RandyT

mahuti

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now that you've made it known that you will be the first to recieve yours, you must tell us how this thing really works.  no offense randy, but i'm just looking for assurance from a non biased party.  you better get everything ready mahuti so you can tell us all the day you get it.

Tryin, but since I don't actually HAVE a 49-way stick it might be a bit tough.  I'm bidding on a stick on eBay, but there's like a week left to go in the bidding process... who knows if I'll win, anyway. I guess what I'm saying is... better look to somebody else to get the news out asap.

Had I known there was so much pressure I would have ordered one xpresspost!
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mahuti

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oh, and Randy, you're welcome. ;D

Too bad you didn't have the 49 ways when I ordered, I would have added one on. I'm tempted to buy one while I'm waiting for my eBay auction to end, but since the rest of my order shipped already I just can't make myself go back and buy something else right now. :p

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mahuti

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Received the 49 way thing today. Too bad.. no 49 way joystick to accompany it. *leaves for a few mintues* Ok I'm back. Just ordered one from Randy. I guess I'll just have two if I win the eBay auction. oh well. 
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Flinkly

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i'd say don't get to carried away about it, but i guess that's a little too late.  i just want to hear what a local BYOACer has to say about this thing.  i already have to get one for my sinistar stick already, but i'd like to know if it works well with the other modes.  lastly, have you ever played the real sinistar or arch rivals?  i guess that would help me, to get the feel from someone who has used the actual controller in an actual arcade machine...thanks though mahuti for being so gungho.

mahuti

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I was just kidding about feeling pressured.
I'm just dying to try it out myself.

I used to play arch rivals & pig skin xx ad all the time. I loved those 2 games. Used to play 'em down at Reecies Soda Shop.
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« Last Edit: March 11, 2005, 05:11:03 am by brandon »

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What, no reviews after all the fierce debating that we had?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2005, 11:18:24 pm by 1UP »

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Flinkly

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well no offense to your hard work at getting it to work, but i'm glad someone else is finding all the bugs before i get around to ordering mine...although it does make me fear connecting two sticks up to two interfaces.  good luck, and lets hear the answers randy.

RandyT

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What, no reviews after all the fierce debating that we had?  I guess I'll have to be the first then.  Hopefully you will find my problems and mistakes helpful. ;)

INSTALLATION:

Well, no use pussyfooting around this--installation is a beeyotch. I spent well over an hour from taking the board out of the box, and getting it wired up.  Randy had mentioned that he recommends using a floppy cable , so I had assumed that it would plug right in to the stick and the board (stupid me, didn't remember the pictures showing either pins, or screw terminals, but not both...)  So I fumbled around for a spare cable and cut off the end with the crossover, and went to work.

The floppy cable just provides a connector with proper spacing.  It's a dual row connector, so it can't be a simple "plug and go" setup.  One could solder wires directly to the points on the board where the pins are attached, but for the solder-phobic, the floppy connector is a simpler alternative.

Quote
The wiring scheme is somewhat confusing, not linear at all (2,7,1,8,4,5,3,6.....)  I would have expected a more I-Pac like approach where everything followed a linear, easy to follow sequence.  It took me 3 attempts to get it right, partially due to the extra confusion of needing to skip every other wire off the floppy cable.  This presents a problem in that you need to remember to skip THREE wires when you get to the missing pin.   I have a little experience dealing with these types of cables, but I think this is going to be a nightmare for anyone who has not done this before.

There was also some confusion over the orientation of the floppy cable wires.  If you plug the uncut end of a floppy cable into the 49-way, the red-marked pin "1" is opposite of the actual pin 1 on the board.  So my first wiring attempt was reversed, the second failed to take into consideration that the missing pin needed 3 wires skipped. Third time, I realized that I had started from the red wire, when I should have started from the second wire, so instead of disconnecting everything YET AGAIN, I broke off all the tabs above the joystick pins, and moved the connector up a row.  :P

Even with an I-Pac, you need to hook the proper wire to the UP terminal if you want UP to work.  No difference here. One just needs to work methodically and pay attention to the task at hand.

I need to stress something here.  It seems like the brunt of the problem was dealing with the floppy connector, which is not part of the product.  It was something that I was able to hook up in about 10 minutes with parts found around the house, which is why it was suggested.  The GP-Wiz49 is just an interface.  It's up to the user to hook it up to the controls in the way best suited to their individual needs/capabilities:

Here's the diagram from the doc sheet for those who might be interested:


Quote
I think a pre-wired cable would be a great accessory to have for this board.  It would be great if the board had a pin header for the joystick (laid out so that it will work out of the box with an unmodified floppy cable), and screw terminals for the buttons.

As stated above, the floppy connector is a dual row connector so it's ill-suited for a real solution.  It's just something to use if you don't have anything else.  Much like cutting the power connectors off an AT power supply for the Williams varieties.  However, wiring these is very straightforward. Looking at the diagram above, you just connect a wire from the pin shown on the joystick to the terminal indicated on the chart.   :-\

Quote
FUNCTION:

The GPWiz 49 did some very strange things in the calibration screen.  The crosshairs would jump back to center at each of the cardinal directions (hard L, U, D, R).  This was most prominent in 49way, 8way, and 4way, and 2way modes.  It did not make any difference in the diagonal mode.

I decided to give it the benefit of the doubt, and tried a few games.  The dead zone was present there too.  I found Ms.PacMan unplayable in any mode.  On the other hand, q*bert played like a dream, even without a square restrictor!

This'll make you cry, but they ALL play like that .....ummm...you still have something wired wrong.  The reason that it hops to center is that you are sending an "unrecognized" bit pattern to  the controller because your wires are still out of order or one (or more) isn't connected.  Also, make sure you aren't messing with the stick when you first give the interface power.  The stick needs to be at center position for the auto-detection to work.  It does this every time the unit is first given power.

Quote
I am hoping that the problems I'm having are due to some bad wiring, but I have to say I am rather disappointed that my first test drive did not go better.  This kit is sorely in need of a plug-n-play connector, as there are many opportunities for something to go in the wrong place, and the nuances of the 49-way are beyond me to troubleshoot.

I guess I am having trouble understanding this sentiment.  Even with a simple 8-way stick, you need to successfully route the 4 wires to the appropriate switches (and then get them on the correct terminals!)  There is no difference here, other than it's just 4 more wires, and no extra terminals to ignore.

I'm going to suggest that you calmly ( :) ) remove everything from everything and start again.  You may want to ditch the floppy cable in favor of something less confusing, or if you would like, I'll work with you to make sure you are rigging the floppy cable correctly.  The diagram for it has been on my "to-do" list anyway.

Quote
The "feel" of the stick is actually kind of nice: it uses no microswitches, so there is no click-clack, and it also uses an old-school rubber grommet rather than a centering spring, so it has a nice mushy feel.  The restrictor is round, so there are no discernable corners to contend with.  This would seem to make it an ideal all-purpose stick with the correct interface.  I am dying to know what I am doing wrong with my setup, because it is a very nice stick!

You don't know the half of it ;)  Wait till you get things hooked up correctly.

Quote
It is just screaming for a balltop though...

Like the one in my CP?  Oooops, I've said too much....

Quote
To summarize: RandyT, HEEEELP!  :'(

I got your email.  I'll see if I can get you through it (really, it's not that hard... I hooked up sticks 5 separate times, including a WiIlliams without getting a wire out of place.  I think you may have just been a little excited in anticipation of the upcoming coolness ;)

RandyT

well no offense to your hard work at getting it to work, but i'm glad someone else is finding all the bugs before i get around to ordering mine...although it does make me fear connecting two sticks up to two interfaces. good luck, and lets hear the answers randy.

Move along....Nothing to see.....No bugs here.......:)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2005, 10:45:18 pm by RandyT »

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Thanks Randy.  I realize that the floppy is not your problem, but it might be nice to have a guide to doing it right.  I don't consider myself a novice by any means, but it was not exactly straightforward.  It would be easier to duplicate your results if we could all see what you are doing!   :)

I still think a custom cable would be ideal.

Also, what is the reasoning behind the jumbled layout of the connections?  Even the button connections are all out of order.  This is one place where Ultimarc has it nailed shut.  Everything is lined up logically, i.e. P1 B1, P1 B2, etc.  It would make life so much easier with some order to it.

I still think this is a great idea, and what I did get working was very impressive.  I knew I was probably doing something wrong, but I thought it was worthwhile to let people know the pitfalls too.  Not trying to sabotage you or nothing.  Just trying to give you ideas that would make it that much better.  ;)

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Hmm...I'm looking at the wiring, and everything seems to be going to the right place.  Do you know what wire would most likely be the problem?

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Also, what is the reasoning behind the jumbled layout of the connections?  Even the button connections are all out of order.  This is one place where Ultimarc has it nailed shut.  Everything is lined up logically, i.e. P1 B1, P1 B2, etc.  It would make life so much easier with some order to it.

The KeyWiz does the same thing ( logical groupings, just sans MAME specific board labels ) but this is not a keyboard device.  A keyboard device must have each of it's inputs mapped to a key definition, and groupings are formed just by virtue of what key you assign to what input.  A gamepad device has no such requirements and the data can be fed directly as a bit pattern, where one bit equals one input  (this is also what makes it faster than a USB keyboard).  Therefore, the inputs are governed by the pin-layout of the CPU. 

It is possible to translate the data to try to arrange the inputs in numerical order, but it's a complex and unnecessary step to make the CPU perform when it really doesn't mean anything to the function of the device.  I mean, would it really be that much easier to understand if input "O" went to button 15 instead of button 9? :)

Quote
I still think this is a great idea, and what I did get working was very impressive.  I knew I was probably doing something wrong, but I thought it was worthwhile to let people know the pitfalls too.  Not trying to sabotage you or nothing.  Just trying to give you ideas that would make it that much better.  ;)

No problem.  If you liked the diagonals, you'll like the rest as well...

Now let me get to work on that floppy cable diagram....

RandyT

Hmm...I'm looking at the wiring, and everything seems to be going to the right place. Do you know what wire would most likely be the problem?

This is best dealt with via Email, as I expect there might be some considerable back and forth...I'll be contacting you....

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 :o STOP THE PRESSES!

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RandyT

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I am now a believer!  ;D

The first of many, I expect.  Glad you got it working

(now I can go to bed :) )

RandyT

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I'll be wiring up mine tonight. Been working on some xBox banners so I been too busy... those guys are hard to work for.   :-X
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Also, what is the reasoning behind the jumbled layout of the connections?  Even the button connections are all out of order.

The KeyWiz does the same thing ( logical groupings, just sans MAME specific board labels )....  Therefore, the inputs are governed by the pin-layout of the CPU. 

It is possible to translate the data to try to arrange the inputs in numerical order, but it's a complex and unnecessary step to make the CPU perform when it really doesn't mean anything to the function of the device.

So, why didn't you cross the wires on the PCB?  Easier on the user, no extra load on the chip.  (That much more expensive to manufacture, I guess?)

(In the middle of wiring, and just venting a little.  Once it's together, I doubt I'll care as much.)
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RandyT

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So, why didn't you cross the wires on the PCB?  Easier on the user, no extra load on the chip.  (That much more expensive to manufacture, I guess?)

(In the middle of wiring, and just venting a little.  Once it's together, I doubt I'll care as much.)

One of the reasons I have been able to offer these different interfaces quickly and inexpensively is that they share the KeyWiz PCB.  Based on the specialized nature of the GP-Wiz49 and smaller market size, the pricing would need to be much higher if a special board were made just for it.

We sell a lot of KeyWiz's so we can buy large volumes of the PCB's.  Doing it this way allows the other products to share the same "economy of scale" even though we sell far less of this variety (at least for the moment)

Make sense?

RandyT

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I just tried the stick in Sinistar, and it's playable, but it's hard to keep yourself in check in the heat of the moment, and keep from just flying off into space while chasing crystals.

But, the Happ 49-way is pretty easy to hack.

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Couple questions...

So, this thing only works with the KeyWiz or can we use it in conjunction with our I-Pacs?

Also, do the 49-way sticks have the same bolt pattern as say the Happs Supers or is it different?

thanks.  :-*
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i was also curious about the bolt pattern

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1UP I LOVE IT!

It is probably almost as good...  But one thing that might change the 'feel' is that the spiders do is make it hard to push it in a direction also.  IE its not just the pull from the away side... its the bending on the side your moving closer too.

But all in all.. its probably close enought that nobody would ever know the difference without another one around.

Someone should really look into making a professional spider for those.  Someone already is creating repo ball sticks for them (somewhere... on ebay a while ago I remember seeing a few).

Talk about that.. I have an extra stick.. I'll have to dig it out and see if anyone wants it.  Not doing me any good.

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Will Wico handles fit on these sticks like they will on a P360?
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