New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)

[RandyT]

I'm gonna repeat my question from page 2, I didn't really get the answer to this one--
For Randy T.: Will this product work with standard 8-ways, possibly eliminating the need for 4 to 8-way switchable type sticks?

You can attach a 4 or 8 way to the extra inputs, but it will not provide any additional benefit when used in this manner.

The DRS Modes are specific to the  49-way sticks.

RandyT

[RandyT]

i wonder if slikstik is gonna jump on this bandwagon and get us some stainless steel 49-way sticks.  if i heard right, there supposed to be making a small batch anyways.  maybe they'll make it a regular in their store.

I have these in progress as well....


RandyT

[Arcadiac]

Thanks all for helping to clear my befuddled head on this!  ARCADIAC!

[Tommy Boy]

i wonder if slikstik is gonna jump on this bandwagon and get us some stainless steel 49-way sticks.  if i heard right, there supposed to be making a small batch anyways.  maybe they'll make it a regular in their store.

I have these in progress as well....


RandyT

Will the versaball handles work with 49-ways?

[1UP]

Yeah, a balltop would be nice.

Oh, and there's no possible way to interpolate the outputs of an 8-way stick to make it act as a true 4-way, no matter what interface you're using!

[Xiaou2]

"You often say that I think I'm always right about everything, but you came right out of the gate with a thirst for RandyT blood"

  I hardly think my comments - esp the initial comments were not angry in any way.
They were merely my Opinions.    There is no bad blood between him and I... unless its him that has it twords me.   He got offended by my opinions... and lashed out at me.   I tried my best to avoid returning that. 

 My intent was to convey logical reasonings about propper controller feel and mechanics ..  as sadly,  it seems that all too latly these days,  people are using impropper controls to once great games.   Experiencing them in a way that makes them less controllable/enjoyable.    And somehow... reveling happily in it thinking that is the perfect solution... which makes it all the more insanely sickening.  The game designers would roll over in thier graves - if they were dead.   Some of the live 80s game designers REFUSE to play thier own creations on mame cabs merely because of the impropper controls.  What does that say?!   


  Randy has accused me for not trying his interface, and being able to critisize it.   However... randy himself has not developed his product by first testing the very stick that IMOP makes the thing worth anything at all - a true sinistar stick.

  He also did not ask the people for input into what features they might want BEFOREHAND... which would have also helped in better refinments... instead of lost sales,  costly re-designs, ect. 

  And... If he can not handle an Opinion  on his products - then surly there is a case of bruised Ego -vs- strengthening of knowlege and better product production.
 
 Trust me.. I was in the same boat long ago... so I know what its like.  Sorry... but Im just being honest and truthfull.   

   Egos here get a bit large at times... and need a propper checking.   

  Btw - I do not know everything... and Im not affraid to admit it.  I will not lie about what I know... make stories up.. or tell you an Opinion is a Fact.  If Im wrong, I will also not try to make it seem like Im right just to win an argument.   However... I will offer and defend what I do know.

  Could I have been more gentle?   Maybe... but I do not think my comments were nasty at all.   Could I have been down and disrespectfully nasty and rude?  Of course... but hey, Im not that kind of person.  (unless you Really deserve it.  IE:  Be nasty to me, and it may just bounce back)

  Now as for you, Rob,... Its my opinion that your comment twords me is a bit of button pushing to make you feel better about yourself again.  And Or maybe its to grab some more attention twords you. 

  Maybe you are just jealous that I didnt comment on your cab.

  I hope you will someday find what makes you feel better about yourself so you do not have to push other peoples buttons.

  Sincerely,
   Steve

[Xiaou2]

 Jody,

   Not sure if you were being sarcastic... but:

 http://www.xiaou2.homestead.com/arcade.html

   
   Ive since decided to change my design to a sitdown rotation controller.    Still working on the design.

   I also am sorry - but not all the specifics are there about the Sinistik.   Ive just never gotten arround to it.   However... if theres any question, I will gladly answer them.

  Im sure you could also do the same type of thing to an arcade analog stick. 


 

[2600]

i wonder if slikstik is gonna jump on this bandwagon and get us some stainless steel 49-way sticks.  if i heard right, there supposed to be making a small batch anyways.  maybe they'll make it a regular in their store.

I have these in progress as well....


RandyT

This is what I've been waiting for.  Stainless steel may be nice, but nothing beats a red ball top.  Do I remember correctly from a different thread that you are in the process of this and actually trying to get a different size ball as well?

Great job, keep the great products coming.

[RandyT]

  Randy has accused me for not trying his interface, and being able to critisize it.   However... randy himself has not developed his product by first testing the very stick that IMOP makes the thing worth anything at all - a true sinistar stick.

While support for the Williams would be "nice to have", It's time you faced the unpleasant fact that they are no longer in production.  And whatever mechanism one is able to cobble together from "parts found around the house" is never going to compare to the real thing.

 While I do have a sometimes self-defeating streak of compassion  for users of obsolete products, my business sense keeps me from placing too much emphasis on it. 

  He also did not ask the people for input into what features they might want BEFOREHAND... which would have also helped in better refinments... instead of lost sales,  costly re-designs, ect. 

This is a pre-release posting and I have stated it as such.  I haven't shipped a single unit yet, as I knew that there would be a last minute tweak that would come of the posting.  I'm sorry I didn't crawl meekly to your doorstep to ask for your opinion as to what direction I should take my products.  And re-designs cost me only my creative effort and a little time.  Things I often don't consider fully when pricing my creations.

  And... If he can not handle an Opinion  on his products - then surly there is a case of bruised Ego -vs- strengthening of knowlege and better product production.
 Trust me.. I was in the same boat long ago... so I know what its like.  Sorry... but Im just being honest and truthfull.   

Sounds to me like you are the captain.  Opinions are fine and I love to hear them.  But when you spew inaccuracies while denigrating something you don't fully "get", you have to expect that it won't be taken lightly.

To anyone else who might be curious as to the progress of this, I am currently implementing  SirP's shifted buttons.   This should be done and tested this evening.

RandyT

[Tommy Boy]

Randy --

Please don't lose sight of the legitimate (and short) question posts above.  They seem to get lost amongst the "War and Peace" posts and counter-posts...

[dema]

Randy, I think this is a great product idea. Anything that can help people reduce the amount of clutter on their panels is a great addition. I think that I'll be picking up a couple of them because I'd like to have multiple controls at my fingertips for whatever game I'm playing. I'm not a stickler for the original controls, I just want the best play experience possible without needing 10 different types of joysticks.

[RandyT]

 Will the versaball handles work with 49-ways?

Unfortunately, no.

The 49-ways have a very narrow shaft compared to the IL style sticks, so they need a special version.

I may not end up with stainless.  I was thinking perhaps a nice black-oxide with a translucent ball. 

RandyT

[Flinkly]

i'm with dema.

[JODY]

Jody,

[GGKoul]

http://www.xiaou2.homestead.com/arcade.html

[dema]

Sorry if this is off topic, but I hadn't given it any thought before reading this thread. How difficult is it to hook up a 49 way? I know nothing about them, and my search didn't yield any information. Is it the same as any other joystick? Someone said something about soldering.

[mahuti]

You can get RandyT's interface with screw terminals. So... easy.

[Xiaou2]

 lol     Thanks GGKoul  !   

  Guess I deserve that for the poor choice of wording : )   lol

  I liked unclets design.. so I may try to go that route... but expand upon it. 

 Which leaves me a usless but functional rotating/locking  base.   I have no clue what to do with it... and seems kinda sad to rip it appart...  maybe someone might want it.. 

 Tho, the controls would have be stripped off.

 
 

[Flinkly]

dema, as for actually hooking up to a 49-way, on the joystick end, ther is usually a fingerboard you must attach to.

[Tommy Boy]

Hey Randy -- How about a special TRON restriction mode?  Then we just need someone to develop a trigger-top ball...

[SirPoonga]

like that dang minipac....maybe i'll just desolder that too....

The minipac uses standard headers.  Get an IDE cable and.... er...forgot what the small one is.

[RandyT]

Hey Randy -- How about a special TRON restriction mode?  Then we just need someone to develop a trigger-top ball...

We'll talk about such things after people are using these and can actually see how well things work.

Then we'll talk about what can and can't be done with them. 

RandyT

[sWampy]

I'd order one, maybe 2 if my frontend could auto set the mode by calling a command line utility, so I didn't have to explain to my friends and family how to change the joystick.

[RandyT]

Sorry if this is off topic, but I hadn't given it any thought before reading this thread. How difficult is it to hook up a 49 way? I know nothing about them, and my search didn't yield any information. Is it the same as any other joystick? Someone said something about soldering.

The one pictured is simple.

You can use the bottom row of holes on the connector of an old floppy drive cable.

The floppy connector is the same size as the edge of the board on the 49-way, so it even looks nice when attached.

I have a nice close-up photo of the wires on mine. I'll post it and show which wires to cut/use when I find some time.

RandyT

[dema]

... as for connection, you still just have to find the appropriate female attachement thing and get your wires straight.
....

Thanks Flinkly, that was the image I was going off of, and I was wondering if there was anything necessary beyond crimping. I appreciate the help.

[dema]

Sorry if this is off topic, but I hadn't given it any thought before reading this thread. How difficult is it to hook up a 49 way? I know nothing about them, and my search didn't yield any information. Is it the same as any other joystick? Someone said something about soldering.

The one pictured is simple.

You can use the bottom row of holes on the connector of an old floppy drive cable.

The floppy connector is the same size as the edge of the board on the 49-way, so it even looks nice when attached.

I have a nice close-up photo of the wires on mine. I'll post it and show which wires to cut/use when I find some time.

RandyT

Very cool idea.

I'm looking forward to the product. I'll email you some other newbie questions in the coming days before I order the encoder.

[NoOne=NBA=]

I'll email you some other newbie questions in the coming days before I order the encoder.

If you post them here, or start a NEW thread entitled "n00b questions about 49-ways" then EVERYBODY will get the answers at once, and RandyT will only have to answer them once.

[SirPoonga]

What questions do you have?

between these two sites you can find most of the technical info on 49ways
http://epg3.tripod.com/sinistar.html
http://urebelscum.speedhost.com/49waySticks.html

[dema]

I was wondering if the GP-Wiz49 was compatible with other encoders. I bought and intended to use a couple mini-pacs but now I don't know if they'll serve a purpose. I'm guessing the Wiz49 needs the buttons and sticks to run through it so it can change the digital restrictor modes and use the stick. I figure I can use the minipac for the spinner and trackball, but can I also hook other buttons that I don't intend to use to swap modes up to them (if I actually needed more)? I just wasn't sure how this affected other encoders.

Also, stemming from this I wasn't sure if I needed one or two encoders. Again this would depend on whether certain buttons can run through the mini-pac or not.

Does the 49 way require any power, like the P360s, or is it fine on its own? And would I need to change the version of MAME I'm running in order to read the 49 way's directions?

[NoOne=NBA=]

I was wondering if the GP-Wiz49 was compatible with other encoders.

It SHOULD work fine.
They are separate devices.
Unless there is an unexpected conflict of some sort, it shouldn't be any different than having a gamepad hooked up with the mini-pac--which is known to work.

I bought and intended to use a couple mini-pacs but now I don't know if they'll serve a purpose.

They will let you hook up your trackball and spinner, as you mentioned in your original post.
Alternately, you could sell them and use a single mouse hack from Oscar, and wire it up using the switching circuit diagrammed on his website.

I'm guessing the Wiz49 needs the buttons and sticks to run through it so it can change the digital restrictor modes and use the stick.

Yes, unless you hook up a "programming device" like we were discussing earlier in this thread.

I figure I can use the minipac for the spinner and trackball, but can I also hook other buttons that I don't intend to use to swap modes up to them (if I actually needed more)? I just wasn't sure how this affected other encoders.

They should all be seen as separate devices, so SHOULD work together.
You should also be able to hook up any extra buttons to the Mini-pac, if necessary.

Also, stemming from this I wasn't sure if I needed one or two encoders. Again this would depend on whether certain buttons can run through the mini-pac or not.

You need one GP-Wiz49 for each 49-way you plan to use.
I can't tell if you are planning for one or two sticks, but each needs its own interface.

Does the 49 way require any power, like the P360s, or is it fine on its own?

It gets its power through the interface.
The reason that the P360 needs external power is that there is not interface board for it.
It hooks directly to the encoder.

And would I need to change the version of MAME I'm running in order to read the analog directions?

I THINK that 49-way support is built into command line MAME, but will be corrected by someone shortly if it isn't.

[SirPoonga]

And would I need to change the version of MAME I'm running in order to read the analog directions?

I THINK that 49-way support is built into command line MAME, but will be corrected by someone shortly if it isn't.

you will have to reread one of my replies on uses for this.

49way support is not built into mame.  The games that used 49way joys that are in mame are the williams driver (sinistar), the pigskin/arch rivals driver, and blitz. 
Out of those, everything but blitz uses a hack to convert an analog joystick (IE your analog gamepad you have hooked up to your USB/gameport) to 49way approximation.  That is why this interface will work with mame.  The Wiz49 takes the 49way joystick and converts it to an analog joystick signal for the PC.  Mame can then read that and within the driver for the game convert back to 49way inputs.

That said, you could use this interface as a pseudo analog joystick input for games that used analog joysticks.  It's not going to have the precision but is more useful than an 8way joy to play those few games.

BTW, to get analog stick support for pigskin I think urebel and I made the changes in the late .60s of mame.  Otherwise before that only sinistar had the analog stick hack.

[1UP]

[Grasshopper]

It's a nice product that fills a gap in the market but I think there's room for improvement.

The main problem for me is that it's USB only. I realise that USB is the future but I'm not yet ready to commit to a USB only solution because I still occasionally use DOS. It would be nice to have a ps/2 mode like the Ipacs, even if analogue wasn't available in that mode.

Also, what about game consoles? A lot of people want to interface their console to arcade controls but cannot do so because some games require an analogue joystick. This board might provide a solution if it could emulate a playstation gamepad (no need to emulate gamepads for other consoles as converters are available). Ok, I know a 49 way stick isn't true analogue but it might be good enough for many games.

I'd also like to reiterate what others have already said. There needs to be a way of changing the joystick's mode through software as well as by pressing buttons. And programmable customised grids would also be very useful.

One final thing. I agree with Paige. It's a bit silly of you to say the 7*7 grids you have used are proprietary and thus secret. It's not us, the ordinary customers, you need to worry about but your competitors. They will reverse engineer your boards whether you like it or not. And somehow I suspect your threat to stop producing any new products if anyone spills the beans will not deter them.

Hiding legitimate (and easily obtainable) information from potential customers is poor marketing IMHO. It's also poor marketing to ask for 'constructive comments' and then complain when you get them.

[Flinkly]

like that dang minipac....maybe i'll just desolder that too....

The minipac uses standard headers.

[NoOne=NBA=]

49way support is not built into mame.........That is why this interface will work with mame.

Which means that YES, command line MAME does support the 49-ways directly--in the context of the original question.

[NoOne=NBA=]

It's a bit silly of you to say the 7*7 grids you have used are proprietary and thus secret.

For those who didn't "get it" yet, Randy didn't release them because it would CREATE more controversy than it STOPPED.

HE tested everything, and found that the grids he is using were the best FUNCTIONING, but don't work the way you THINK they would without TESTING them.

Releasing the ACTUAL grids would have lead to alot MORE "that won't work that way" posts, and he was trying to avoid that.

He validated that MY grids, though not EXACT to his grids, are FUNCTIONALLY correct, and has answered all the questions I originally asked to my satisfaction.

[PoDunkMoFo]

Randy,

Just had an idea for mode selection and thought I'd ask if it would be feasable.
It seems alot of people are worried about 8 buttons for selecting the mode.  Could you make the mode selectable by the joystick.  In other works hold down the Mode button and move the joystick up to select 49 way - Up Right to select progressive....etc.

I am no technician so I thought I would throw the idea out and see how it lands.

Thank you for attempting to provide another solution to this community.

[SirPoonga]

HE tested everything, and found that the grids he is using were the best FUNCTIONING, but don't work the way you THINK they would without TESTING them.

Actually, were there beta testers?  Was there more than one person giving input on what "feels" right since that's subjective.

[SirPoonga]

Which means that YES, command line MAME does support the 49-ways directly--in the context of the original question.

And would I need to change the version of MAME I'm running in order to read the analog directions?

I THINK that 49-way support is built into command line MAME, but will be corrected by someone shortly if it isn't.

Yes, in regards to the original question, to get this interface to work with something other than sinistar you just need a version of mame newer than somewhere in the .60s.

[Jakobud]

Wow this really is a great innovation... very cool indeed! 

Now one question about this.  This uses the software/hardware to "restrict" the directions that the joystick will register.  That's cool and all, but don't people usually prefer a 4-way (instead of 8-way) to play 4-way games because the joystick is PHYSICALLY restricted to only 4-way movement?  It's all about the 'feel' of the joystick.  How does the 49-way joystick feel when you are 'virtually' restricting it to 4-way motion?  Does it feel odd?   Or do you feel like you are hitting a lot of blank spots?  Or feel like the joystick is unresponsive if you don't move it in just the right position?

I'm just curious about this.  I'll probably end up buying a couple of these interfaces when I get around to building my next cabinet anyways