New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)

[SirPoonga]

I'd want to know some idea on how this thing is going to work before I buy it. Unless RandyT is going to give a money back guarantee.

Done.

Money back guarantee for the No-Solder and MAX versions.

[SirPoonga]

Is your mode button also the shazaam button?  I assume this can be used as a direct replacement tot he keywiz.

[sWampy]

I have happs super joysticks at the moment, I like them ok for most games, but my wife complains constantally that pac-man doesn't play right.   Would it play better with this and a happs 49 way joystick, or a t-stick plus?

[SirPoonga]

Pacman would play the best with an actual 4way.  Putting this 49way in 4way mode will be like if you took your 8way and disabled the diagonals in mame.  You can push diagonals but they won't register.

[RandyT]

Putting this 49way in 4way mode will be like if you took your 8way and disabled the diagonals in mame.  You can push diagonals but they won't register.

BZZZZT!!!  Oh, Sorry.  That answer is incorrect.    Johnny, tell him about the fine parting gifts we have for him......


Not the case at all.  The accuracy of the 4 way will amaze and astound

RandyT

[sWampy]

Pacman would play the best with an actual 4way.  Putting this 49way in 4way mode will be like if you took your 8way and disabled the diagonals in mame.  You can push diagonals but they won't register.

Well no Duh, Randy said they played as close to real as you could get.   I was pretty much asking him if he thought his new solution was as good as or better than something like a t-stick plus, or a happs superjoystick for 4 way games.

[SirPoonga]

Putting this 49way in 4way mode will be like if you took your 8way and disabled the diagonals in mame.

[Paul Olson]

If I buy one (or two) of these, I would probably just be using it for 49way.  I will have a modular panel, so there will be no set amount of buttons on the panel at any given time.  Does this default to 49way mode?  Or even better, can you set the default to any of the modes?

Thanks,
Paul

[SirPoonga]

I have happs super joysticks at the moment, I like them ok for most games, but my wife complains constantally that pac-man doesn't play right.

[Daniel270]

 I sent this as a PM yesterday, but the topic's been on fire pretty persistently, so I'll ask in the open..

What all would be necessary to hook up the Williams 49 to the new GP-Wiz49? 

[SirPoonga]

And this is the point I have been trying make here.

[tetsujin]

Putting this 49way in 4way mode will be like if you took your 8way and disabled the diagonals in mame.  You can push diagonals but they won't register.

BZZZZT!!!  Oh, Sorry.  That answer is incorrect.    Johnny, tell him about the fine parting gifts we have for him......


Not the case at all.  The accuracy of the 4 way will amaze and astound

RandyT

But then it isn't a 4way as 4ways should recognize diagonals.  To be super accurate you'd have to physically limit the stick from moving diagonal.  So how much more accurate can you get then not registering diagonals?

An 8-way joystick is divided into eight zones - if they were perfectly symmetrical, they'd be 45 degrees each.  But for joysticks with square restrictors, the diagonal zones probably take up more space on the arc than the cardinal directions.  But the basic idea here is that the switches register only 8 possible directions, so no amount of post-processing can make any reasonable guess about which direction a diagonal is supposed to be when in 4-way mode.

The 49-way joystick delivers more resolution.  That means that if the joystick is pushed in a diagonal that's "mostly up" but still in a direction that an 8-way would register as a diagonal, there's potential for software to assign a more favorable direction to that reading.  Randy presumably spent a bunch of time playtesting different possible mappings and found some he likes.  I think it's true, what he says, about mappings being counter-intuitive.  That's often the case with software and UI - something might seem perfectly reasonable but it's only by testing in the proper context that you find out what really works.

I'd definitely agree with you that for 4-way games, the 4-way restrictor plate is very important...  Personally I have a hard time believing that a 49-way with a custom mapping and no specialized restrictor plate can deliver a comparable experience.  But I guess I'd have to try it to know for sure, right?

[RandyT]

Is your mode button also the shazaam button?  I assume this can be used as a direct replacement tot he keywiz.

There is no Shazaaam! button on the GP-Wiz line, only the KeyWiz.


RandyT

[SirPoonga]

I know someone asked what you'd use this for.

I'd like to clarify my answer.

[SirPoonga]

There is no Shazaaam! button on the GP-Wiz line, only the KeyWiz.

Ouch.  Sorry man, but that just lost my sale.  If I got one I'd want to replace my existing 8ways with a 49way.  I'd only want one encoder since I have a removable panel.  And I use my pause button as a shift key, and not only for mame.

That's not going to work for me.  You almost had me until that.  That will definately not work with a removable panel on only have one cord going out of the panel and only one plug to plug into if I had both my ipac and a wiz49 in the cabinet.

Unless you see an easy way around it.

[RandyT]

There is no Shazaaam! button on the GP-Wiz line, only the KeyWiz.

Ouch.  Sorry man, but that just lost my sale.  If I got one I'd want to replace my existing 8ways with a 49way.  I'd only want one encoder since I have a removable panel.  And I use my pause button as a shift key, and not only for mame.
...
Unless you see an easy way around it.

Hmmmm......I have an idea that might just work..... I'll let you know where it ends up.......


RandyT

[RandyT]

I'm going to try to get to soem of these now....sorry.

When you refer to raw49 and progressive49 is this similar to linear vs exponetial scaling?

To the best of my knowledge, yes.  I did not reverse engineer the board that uses that terminology, so I can't say that it is the same, only that it addresses what I perceived to be the goal of those modes.


RandyT

[SirPoonga]

There is no Shazaaam! button on the GP-Wiz line, only the KeyWiz.

Ouch.

[RandyT]

Looks cool!   (btw, you will need to test the other sticks... what they output is different).

Have some questions and comments.

How many joysticks can it handle? 

One 49-way per interface and as many conventional ones as will fit on the inputs.

Do you both a linear / scaled range?

Yes.  No problems.

And I love the other restrictor modes... but I can only see these working with the happs49 ways... the spider would probably make the joysticks suck for many other games. 

I'll evaluate the stick when it arrives.  There may be some work ahead to implement it properly, but I've been pleasantly surprised before.  Obviously, I will keep everyone updated.

Thanks,
RandyT

[RandyT]

"  Arcade "ENGINEERS"  in the 80's spent a ton of man hours to design the most PERFECT controllers for the said game that was being worked on.   This controller had to work reliable in harsh abuse situations,  and yet, control the character as close to flawless as possible.   No clumbsiness... or way that the player could fault the controls for his loss of life.   
 
  These guys may have made hundreads of prototypes for a single game.  These guys are professionals..  with degrees!    Tested these things out extensively.  Had others test them.  Retested them.  Fixed the issues...ect.   They are not all to be taken so lightly.   There are many many reasons why they chose a paticular shape for something... or a set amount of travel... or a  RUBBER SPIDER  vs  a Spring.

You must not have worked in the industry.  A common philosophy is, "KISS" and "Don't reinvent the wheel".  The industry uses many components not because of years of R&D research but cost effectiveness.  This isn't NASA, it's the gaming industry.  First code, then hardware implementation.  Cost effectiveness and Timeliness play a huge factor in game development.  You would be shocked to see the actual amount of  "testing" that actually went on.  Due to patents, you'll see different designs but similar principles.  Perfection isn't a design consideration.

Thank You for posting this.  You took the words right out of my mouth.

I still remember the first time I held the elusive WICO "grommet" in my hand and thought "I just know WICO didn't have these made specially for joystick centering" and set out to find out what they really were.

Well, I found them.  Suffice it to say that they have nothing to do with the Arcade industry, or joystick controllers.  In fact, they are not even designed to have those kinds of stresses put on them, which is probably why they wear out after time.  They were a stock part that served a purpose they weren't designed for.  The engineer that designed the part originally probably got a good laugh when he heard how it was being used.

RandyT

[sWampy]

Pacman would play the best with an actual 4way.  Putting this 49way in 4way mode will be like if you took your 8way and disabled the diagonals in mame.  You can push diagonals but they won't register.

Well no Duh, Randy said they played as close to real as you could get.   I was pretty much asking him if he thought his new solution was as good as or better than something like a t-stick plus, or a happs superjoystick for 4 way games.

Well I guess the no response means the t-stick plus will be much better than this and a happs 49 way for the majority of games.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Well I guess the no response means the t-stick plus will be much better than this and a happs 49 way for the majority of games.

No response means everyone is distracted by other things at the moment.

Pretty much ANYTHING will be better than a Super/Comp/Ultimate on 4-way games.

The T-stiks do a decent job of 4-way, but alot of people don't like the stiff spring/short throw on them.

The J-stik is a little more liked because it has a longer throw and softer spring.

Nobody except Randy knows how well the 49-way works in 4-way mode.

All that said, I've never seen a GOOD substitute for a dedicated 4-way.

[Daniel270]

another "slightly" off topic question...

Think this'll make games like Qbert and Congo Bongo easier to play using the 49way and Randy's new product?

[NoOne=NBA=]

RandyT,

Does the interface have to be programmed at every startup/hotswap, or does it retain the last value during power-off?

[RandyT]

Well no Duh, Randy said they played as close to real as you could get.   I was pretty much asking him if he thought his new solution was as good as or better than something like a t-stick plus, or a happs superjoystick for 4 way games.

Well I guess the no response means the t-stick plus will be much better than this and a happs 49 way for the majority of games.

Believe it or not, I don't own a T-stick plus.  So any answer I might give would be pure speculation.

But it shouldn't be hard to guess what will be permanently installed on *my* control panel.

RandyT

[RandyT]

RandyT,

Does the interface have to be programmed at every startup/hotswap, or does it retain the last value during power-off?

It defaults to Raw49 mode on power loss. 


And just so this isn't a one line post, to answer another question that was asked earlier, 49-way sticks will be available shortly at the GGG store along with all of the other goodies.

RandyT

[Kremmit]

SirP- you wanted to get the mode selection without 8 buttons on the panel.  I figure it can be done with fewer, here's how:

Randy says the mode button is a standalone, with no other function, so that's one right there.  Of course, since it's not used during play, it could be a non-arcade button, so you could mount a really small button anywhere to do this job, even conceal it inside the coin door or whatever.  (As far as that goes, you could conceal all 8, but let's assume you don't want to do that.)  That leaves 7, one for each of the modes. 

When pushed, the mode select button essentially shifts button inputs 1-7 from their standard function to "Mode Select".  If you've got coin1, coin2, start1 and start2 on your machine, there's 4 already  Got 4players, then you're covered right there.  If not, that still only leaves 3 "fire" buttons to go on the panel.  If you've got admin buttons, mouse buttons, etc.- you can use those.

Even if your other buttons are wired to another encoder (Ipac, Keywiz) that has their coin, start, and player buttons wired there can use this trick too, they just have to do some more wiring.  Double wire your buttons to both encoders, but wire a toggle switch in the circuits so they're only live to one encoder at a time.  Wire the toggle to a relay off of your mode-select button and you're good to go.  Hmm, there ought to be a way to skip the relay- maybe a DPDT in the mode select button?  3P3T?

[sWampy]

Well no Duh, Randy said they played as close to real as you could get.   I was pretty much asking him if he thought his new solution was as good as or better than something like a t-stick plus, or a happs superjoystick for 4 way games.

Well I guess the no response means the t-stick plus will be much better than this and a happs 49 way for the majority of games.

Believe it or not, I don't own a T-stick plus.  So any answer I might give would be pure speculation.

But it shouldn't be hard to guess what will be permanently installed on *my* control panel.

RandyT

Well I guess I should have asked if you thought the 49 way/controller was a better solution than the 4/8 way joysticks that you sell.  2 of them will cost me $80 or so, a controller and one 49 way will cost me about the same, so I'm not sure which way to go.     

Only other worry I have is my mini-pac.  I guess, I'd have to use the 49 way controller for most inputs and just use mini-pac for coins  and player 1/2, since buttons 1-8 are used to set the mode, or I would have to add a bunch of extra buttons.

[1UP]

Where have I been the past few days!

[NoOne=NBA=]

SirP- you wanted to get the mode selection without 8 buttons on the panel.  I figure it can be done with fewer, here's how:

My thought was to use an 8-position rotary switch, and a DPST momentary to trigger everything.
That is assuming that you don't have to depress and hold the mode button prior to selecting the mode.

The DPST would ground BOTH the mode switch and the rotary simultaneously, but cut off ground to both when released, so that the rotary wouldn't send any data to the encoder when the programming button was not depressed.

[SirPoonga]

SirP- you wanted to get the mode selection without 8 buttons on the panel.  I figure it can be done with fewer, here's how:

Not a good solution for a swappable panel where the coin and start buttons are off the control panel.

A SPST pushbutton 8way rotary switch would be a good idea...

[JODY]

First off, I have built a sinistar stick from an analog joystick.

[Flinkly]

ok, i'd just like to help randy out here a bit...

Only other worry I have is my mini-pac. I guess, I'd have to use the 49 way controller for most inputs and just use mini-pac for coins and player 1/2, since buttons 1-8 are used to set the mode, or I would have to add a bunch of extra buttons.

you could just make the player one and/or two buttons double up.

[Kremmit]

My thought was to use an 8-position rotary switch, and a DPST momentary to trigger everything.
That is assuming that you don't have to depress and hold the mode button prior to selecting the mode.

The DPST would ground BOTH the mode switch and the rotary simultaneously, but cut off ground to both when released, so that the rotary wouldn't send any data to the encoder when the programming button was not depressed.

Build one of those onto your panel, and you could use it to play Frontline, Sherrif, Bandido, and Tin Star, too!  Bonus!

[NoOne=NBA=]

A SPST pushbutton 8way rotary switch would be a good idea...

I don't think the SPST would work without diodes.
Without diodes, any time you pressed whatever button corresponded to the selection on the rotary, it would go into programming mode.

You MIGHT be able to get away with it if you programmed it, and then set the rotary to the empty 8th position before playing though.

[Flinkly]

i wonder if slikstik is gonna jump on this bandwagon and get us some stainless steel 49-way sticks.  if i heard right, there supposed to be making a small batch anyways.  maybe they'll make it a regular in their store.

[1UP]

Anyone got measurements for the Happ 49 ways?  They don't have mounting info on their site.

Depth from top of mounting plate to bottom of base assembly is all I need (including bottom tip of stick if it protrudes).

BTW, looking at the photo, it looks like the Happ ones may have some kind of rubber restraint on the bottom.  Am I mistaken?

Thanks.

[Arcadiac]

I'm gonna repeat my question from page 2, I didn't really get the answer to this one--
For Randy T.: Will this product work with standard 8-ways, possibly eliminating the need for 4 to 8-way switchable type sticks?

I asked specifically because if MAME only supports 2 or 3 games that need 49-ways, it would really be wasteful to buy them in order to use this interface for Pacman or Congo Bongo.

Thanks again, ARCADIAC!

[Flinkly]

you could use the extra button slots for a non-analog hjoystick if you wanted, but it wont take advantage of the 49 way features.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Will this product work with standard 8-ways, possibly eliminating the need for 4 to 8-way switchable type sticks?

It will work in PLACE OF a standard 8-way, but not WITH it--other than the 8-way can be connected to the button inputs, just like any other encoder.

I asked specifically because if MAME only supports 2 or 3 games that need 49-ways, it would really be wasteful to buy them in order to use this interface for Pacman or Congo Bongo.

The niche for this interface is so that you can have a one-stick-does-all solution on your CP.
While there are only a few games that NEED a 49-way, there are many that can USE a 49-way with this interface.
You can use the stick on 49-way, 8-way, 4-way, rotated 4-way, and 2-way games, as well as many of the analog stick games.

The only games I KNOW will not be playable are the ones requiring the full resolution of an analog stick.
Notable amongst these is StarWars.
With a real analog, the aiming grid is 255x255.
With the 49-way, you can only aim at 49 of these points.
What will happen is that your crosshairs will jump to the next point on the grid, rather than tracking smoothly.