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Author Topic: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)  (Read 136935 times)

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SirPoonga

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2005, 02:39:28 am »
randy has come to us offering us a great new plug and play controller and all that I hear is how we don't need it.  i for one don't want to mess with analog+ or quite frankly, anymore than i have to. 

so stop riping on randy.  if you want to tell people they can do it differently, then that is ok.  but don't start bashing the product you haven't even used just because yo do things differently.

Dude, where did I say we didn't need this product?  Go ahead, try and quote me where I said it was a bad product.  I even mentioned it is a good thing.  All I said was there are times for software solutions and times for hardware solutions.  I did not attack the product.  In fact I am praising it.

I said the situation for using this product is exactly for people like you.  They don;t want to mess with the config.

The situation for software solution is for people who want more control over the "feel" of how the 40way interpets the grid.

Again, people, please read more carefully.  I even said don't put more into it than this just being info and a difference in when software is better than hardware and when hardware is better than software.


« Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 02:46:07 am by SirPoonga »

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2005, 02:50:11 am »
ok, I reread through what was said.  It basically went down like this

I mentioned there's a software solution also.
As I figured Randy replied that his solution is better.
I replied that it depends on your point of view and goal (one being possible saving on money)m that one way could be conceived as better than the other.
Randy replies with more technical jargon on why his is better but also accusing me of thread poisoining. 
The only time I "ripped" on Randy is to point out I am not thread poisoining, just pointing out all the options and that he misread what I said.
There's no where that I said a hardware solution is not a good choice.  I was defending that you can't rule out software in situations where the software solution is better.
if I was thread poisoining I would have said the opposite, that hardware is not the way to go.  That is not what I said.  All I said was there are times when software iis better than hardware and hardware is better than software.  I'm sorry if I have to keep repeating that statement but apparently no one is getting that point.

Long story short.  This is a great product.  I don't have anything against it.  I never said anything bad about it.  All I did was mention there are other possibllities too.

You have to agree.  in this situation there are times when software solution is better. like if you wanted to define how the 49way is going to react as a 4way or 8way.  But if you don't want to do all that configuring this is the perfect solution.  This is definately the second time I said that, possibly the third.

I'm sorry if you didn't understand anything I wrote.  Let it go, leave it at that.

Now, let's get back to talking about the product.
I'd still like answers to how the dead spots are being handle, the diagonal when in 4 way mode, etc...  That will tell you how this will "feel".
« Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 03:00:49 am by SirPoonga »

RandyT

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2005, 03:03:00 am »
As stated above... not completely explaining the functions lead to misunderstandings.

Unfortunately, there are always individuals whom,  the more you explain things to, the more they "think" they find wrong with something.  The only way to deal with them is to not talk to them at all, but you never realize that until after you've already spoken to them.

Quote

 So what you are saying... is that the system will not ignor diagnols... but really use a "half-circle/half-circle"  type of sensing for the 2way for instance - with a small deadzone.


Cut the box in half and draw a line down the center.  Everything on one side = A and everything on the other = B.  That's the simple one. 

Quote
As for the new style of 49ways...  I have a low opinion of them.    They are essentailly limited analog joysticks.   And for that - one wouldnt even need an encoder.

It's all in the implementation. Perhaps you would have a higher opinion of them if you actually used one with appropriate support.  The 49-ways are only limited in the Analog sense.  When used "digitally" they can sense 40 more positions than an 8-way.  Sounds rather "non-limiting" to me.

And how does even a  "limited analog joystick" not require an encoder (assuming you meant an interface  of some sort)?

Quote
  The older Sinistar / Arch Rival  joys used an  X  shaped band to make it harder to reach the edges of the stick.   Like a gas pedal -vs- a brake. 

Well, they went obsolete for a reason.  Perhaps it was because of this engineering oversight?

Quote
The new joys make it hard to play sinistar... as you are able to move too fast - on accident.   The additional resistence of the older joys - make it easer to keep your speeds under much better control.   Staying slower while collecting the crystals.. yet able to dash off like a rocket with a hard push.

I'm guessing you never tried it with an 8-way.   The "Progressive" mode was  incorporated to address just those types of concerns.  But since you haven't tried it.....

Quote
So, if you want an analog joystick that feels like a bat handle joystick.. and has less sensativity than an analog - then fine.   

*sigh*, sensitivity is not at issue, and the 49-way doesn't purport to be "analog" any more than a P360 does.  Just so this is clear to anyone reading this, "This will NOT replace an analog joystick for applications requiring such to operate properly"  I didn't think I alluded otherwise.

Quote
But lets get real here.

(still waiting)   

Quote
First off, I have built a sinistar stick from an analog joystick.  I have felt and
playtested the differences between the center mounted spring that was in it... and then the new rubber x mod that I added to it to make it function properly.

Well, to take similarly misplaced "purist" position, I present for your consideration that because you used a 3rd party or heaven forbid,  "home made"  rubber spider, then the control you possess is no more "authentic" than  the ones you are condemning.  It appears, sir, that your snobbery knows no bounds and that you clearly believe that as long as it is you who posses it , it can be nothing other than "right" and "just."

Ok, I was just having a bit of fun on that one.  Sorry....:)

Quote
I also picked up the real sinistar stick for kicks.   Simular feel to the one I made.  However - mines a bit stiffer, which makes it even easier to control the ship.  This may also be due to the centering spider on the original being aged.

Either that, or yours is not authentic and should be discarded immediately.  Ok, a little more fun :)

Quote
And, Im not 'pooing'  your product.  Rather, Im simply stating that its not a perfect solution to the serious classic game player. .. and that it would  be more benificial to the typical gamer to have a 2-in-1 encoder rather than all those features that really arnt that usefull for the masses.    It also promotes the use of incorrect controls for games, thus making the game look to be poor or too hard.

Ok, now I understand.  "Im not 'pooing'  your product." and  "It also promotes the use of incorrect controls for games, thus making the game look to be poor or too hard." aren't really as contradictory as my tired eyes would have me believe.  Thanks  for clearing that up for me..

The bottom line is this.  If you haven't tried it, all you have is speculation.  And based on some of the speculation, I'd say it was better left for those who were better at it (No-one not included here- - heh, bad grammar)

Buy one or wait for someone else to.  Then you can get the real story.  But if you are going to state that something sucks or has no merit or....without having any first hand knowledge, it can be viewed no other way than a biased attack.  How would you see it were it directed at something you worked hard on?

RandyT
« Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 03:14:27 am by RandyT »

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2005, 06:20:26 am »
"Unfortunately, there are always individuals whom,  the more you explain things to, the more they "think" they find wrong with something.  The only way to deal with them is to not talk to them at all, but you never realize that until after you've already spoken to them."

  I could take that as some sort of snide attack on my intelligence.   But Ill give you the benefit of the doubt.    However...  many here have a decent knowlege..  enough to build a cabnet even  ::)   :P

  "It's all in the implementation. Perhaps you would have a higher opinion of them if you actually used one with appropriate support.  The 49-ways are only limited in the Analog sense.  When used "digitally" they can sense 40 more positions than an 8-way.  Sounds rather "non-limiting" to me.


   How about the arcades for "implementation"?!.   NFL blitz uses them.

  These new optical 49 way joys are merely an analog joystick replacement that was made optical because pots are more prone to wear and failures.   This dosnt mean that an analog joystick isnt better... in fact,  they are as they have more steps of detection.   

  As for digitally controller use... sure,  maybe it can outperform a micro joy in detection.   But, mechanics are a whole other story.   Is the joy too sensative in 8way? or too slow in reactions.   Do you feel the corners... or is it rounded?   Not feeling them - esp in fighters... may be hard to pull off moves for instance... yet on some games,  you do not want corners... so you roll the stick along a smooth circle
(time pilot, gyrus, robotron..ect)    These are MECHANICAL differences.   While you can make a joy perform simular - those joys are not mechanically changable... thus some games just wont be that great with them.   

  And... IMOP,  this interface is all about sinistar right?   I mean... its the only game to really use it that is hugely popular.    IE:  You can play nfl blitz fine with an analog joypad.   But you cant play Sinistar with an analog anything...  not just because of encoders... but because of true mechanics.   

 To make a sinistar controller and use a new style optical 49 way... and you still will not fly as good as the Real controller.   Why?  Mechanics. 

 Some solutions are not solvable with encoders. 

"And how does even a  "limited analog joystick" not require an encoder (assuming you meant an interface  of some sort)?""

  I said.. that since those new controllers are a limited analog joystick... then why bother?  Why not just hack an analog joystick.. which basically comes with its own encoder.   
   
  "Well, they went obsolete for a reason.  Perhaps it was because of this engineering oversight?"

    There is a reason... but not what you think.   Not a good reason...

  Arcade "ENGINEERS"  in the 80's spent a ton of man hours to design the most PERFECT controllers for the said game that was being worked on.   This controller had to work reliable in harsh abuse situations,  and yet, control the character as close to flawless as possible.   No clumbsiness... or way that the player could fault the controls for his loss of life.   
 
  These guys may have made hundreads of prototypes for a single game.  These guys are professionals..  with degrees!    Tested these things out extensively.  Had others test them.  Retested them.  Fixed the issues...ect.   They are not all to be taken so lightly.   There are many many reasons why they chose a paticular shape for something... or a set amount of travel... or a  RUBBER SPIDER  vs  a Spring.

  The reason for optics in sinistar was again,  due to wear and expense.   However,  the use of a spider x was a genious move... and done specifically for many reasons.

  Take a typical analog pc joy out.   Slowly exert light pressure as you move it
from center to left.  What do you feel?   You feel initailly - right near the center...
a sort of resistence.  Its quite heavy feeling... but, once you just pass it... the thing moves very fast.   Basically, theres almost no resistence after that small zone.   

  This area - I believe is called the deadzone.  Its a small center area that is best to avoid sensing... as its too hard to control smoothly in that area.   Its like driving into a speedbump  then falling into a pothole - and trying not to spill a tall glass of water.

  With sinistar that area would have been a disaster to use when flying slow (near the center zone)..

  The typical analog joystick 'center spring'  works on leverage... however,  the x band (rubber spider) works quite different.   

  With the x band.. the center area is smooth as butter.  No bumps.  Nothing to interfere with your delicate control manuvers near the center.    In fact - nothing to interfere all the way through full motion.

  The other thing, is that the Xband makes it increasingly harder to push the shaft twords the edge.   This makes it easier to keep from sloppily sliding like ice between the center and the edge.   This almost creates the illusion of a higher resolution method of detection... but its all due to ingenious mechanics.

  The only problem with this stick... was that the spider eventually stressed out and broke.   This wasnt really that much of a problem, as I believe they lasted a Long time before that happened.    My guess is that the game itself was basically on the way out before the rubbers failed.

  Ok - lets flip Years later...

Many companies changed the way they built thier games.  One major thing they did.. was allow people like Happs, to design and build generic controls for them.   This helped to save money on designs and supply issues.

  However.. happs wasnt always a perfect solution.  If you look arround, you will see that there are like 3 different joystick designs that came before the Ultimates. 
Ultimates had issues too, and got Comps.  Later, supers appeared.    Theres many reason they dumped leafs... but again, not always good ones.
 
 Happs were more concered with durrability than with looks or comfort.  Maybe this also helped to keep development costs down. 

  Look at happs 2way shifters for example...
  - Ugly
  - Horrible Bat feels uncomfortable (instead of sweet balltop)
  - Shaft is too Fat.   Uncomfortable in-between fingers.

  Of course, I may be wrong in that Happs were givin these new designs by the companies thenselves... of course by then, these companies had completely changed.   

  Long gone were the days of proto controllers and original games.  Everything took on a "me too"  attitude.   Low cost - high profits.  Easy difficulty... add coins in order to win instead of skill...   

  The new style 49 ways are a part of that.   They were made in order to be more reliable.   That dosnt mean better.   

 They also have that dreaded center spring speedbump.  However... in blitz it hardly mattered.  Its not really an accuracy game like sinistar.  They are Ok for non accurate analog games.   

 For  Sinistar... they stink.

"I'm guessing you never tried it with an 8-way.   The "Progressive" mode was  incorporated to address just those types of concerns.  But since you haven't tried it....."

   Progrgessive mode?   Well,  you have 6 registers  of speed in one direction... but,  that still dosnt change the mechanics.   If I slip from ranges 2 to 6 accidentally cause its sloppy... ill be litterally out of control.    Same goes for a standard analog control. 

  Even if you modify the values of the speeds... your still slipping thru 4 speeds on accident... which is a mechanical issue.   Think of running on ice...   you have hard time controling where you stop.   However..  pop on a pair of Spiked metal studded boots... and now you have the ability to stop accurately,   (the metal boots = the rubber "X"  )
 
 I do not have to Use your encoder to understand physics and mechanics.

"*sigh*, sensitivity is not at issue, and the 49-way doesn't purport to be "analog" any more than a P360 does.  Just so this is clear to anyone reading this, "This will NOT replace an analog joystick for applications requiring such to operate properly"  I didn't think I alluded otherwise."

  So..  your admitting that this was made more or less to use as a digital means
of control.   IE: non swappable ultimate uber joystick.    I can see what you mean... just not sure if the mechanics will be as good as the real things. 

"Well, to take similiarly misplaced "purist" position, I present for your consideration that because you used a 3rd party or heaven forbid,  "home made"  rubber spider, then the control you possess is no more "authentic" than  the ones your condemning.  It appears, sir, that your snobbery knows no bounds and that you clearly believe that as long as it is you who posses it , it can be nothing other than "right" and "just."

Ok, I was just having a bit of fun on that one.  Sorry....Smiley"

    heh.  funny stuff.   However.. its not snobbery.   Im simply making points about good control.   And... its yes, its not arcade authentic.   In fact, it probably wouldnt work - but, mame allows analog pot input...
and so the conbinations of controllable speeds is greater than the actual controller
in this instance.   If mame acted exactly as the arcade.. then the added resistence may not really matter.   But I also suspect that they kept the resistence a little lower so that the thing could be used in other games like bubbles and arch rivals -
where speed control wasnt as critical.

"Either that, or yours is not authentic and should be discarded immediately.  Ok, a little more fun"

  I can tell you that it certainly is a true sinistar controller.   Ive always been fasinated by mechanics.  Took every toy appart that I owned : )   And it got me
to be able to actually manage an arcade at one point in my life.   I was fixing them
for 3 yrs... so Im very aware of what makes them tick.  Im also very up on what
the older classics used interally.. and make it a point to find out if Im not sure.  However... I played a Ton of the classics in the 80s... so most I know by memmory
alone.   I also have some games, and collector friends that have classics as well... (that Ive been asked to fix on occassion)   Anyways... my point is... Im very keen on what makes a game control well.. and how these controllers work mechanically.
 
 btw - I am more than willing to admit when I am wrong.  And one case was about leaf switches.   I forgot about how much better they were for certain things because it had been so long... yet after a little roughness on the boards... I went to play some real leaf controlled games to make sure.   Sure enough, I was worng.. and Im now a preacher of thier great glory : )   

"The bottom line is this.  If you haven't tried it, all you have is speculation.  And based on some of the speculation, I'd say it was better left for those who were better at it"

  What I have is experience with mechanics.   In my opinion:

1) New style  49ways are not good for  Sinistar
2) Using an old style 49way to play 8way fighters may be hard
  (more resistence, and cant easily hit corners to feel what your doing)

3)  Using a new style 49way to play fighters may be Ok.
 
4)  Using a new/old  style to play 8way leaf games may be rough..
   (no smooth circular edge to run arround against)

5)  Using a new/old to play 4way games will work be slightly odd
    (a small delay when moving the extra distance of the corners, or
   a floating in space feel if full extention not needed)

6) 2 way control simular.   Will work fine.. but feel a tad awkwards,
  (as you might sometimes move the joy in half circles instead of straight)

 My main concern at the start of the thread was the way the digital end was handled.  But now, I think youve got it ok for digital.   However.. I personaly do not
think that mechanically it will be a better feel... and may lead to a lackend control because of the lack of guidence.

 I am more concerned over the thought that the new style 49 ways will work well with sinistar.  Thats my main reason for me even responding.   

 I feel that vendors should ask thier customers what features they want instead of being so secretive.   Youll get a lot of beneficial feedback that otherwise may cause piitfalls or lower sales.

 Maybe you wanted eveyone the kiss your butt.  If thats so.. then let the Retroblast guy do a review on the thing.  Unless it emits electrical shocks while playing...he will give it a 10 out of 10.  lol    ;D    :P    ::)

  Im sorry if you take it as a personal attack.  Its not meant to be that.   Its simple feedback based on knowledge of mechanics... and a suggested feature rip in replace of dual controls.   However... its probably too late for that.   Anyways..
good luck.

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2005, 07:47:16 am »
Looks cool!   (btw, you will need to test the other sticks... what they output is different).

Have some questions and comments.

How many joysticks can it handle? 

Do you both a linear / scaled range?  Run sinister and make sure you can move in 3 different speeds.  Depending on the mame driver that converts the analog -> digital... You just want to make sure you can.


As for the analog+ conversation.  I use analog+ for my SNK rotaries... because it is faster and feels much quicker then going through a hardware convert to l's and r's..... 

I use a Daves board for my 49 way.  Why?  I could go directly with analog+... But its a great joystick for a TON of other games.  I use it with a lot with console emulation where you need analog.  Great analog non-trigger flight stick.    (btw, this is where the linear scale comes into play).

So I believe there is a REAL use for these boards.  It allows you to use them with the windows version of blitz2000 (so you don't have to wait for a 10ghz PC to come out). 

And I love the other restrictor modes... but I can only see these working with the happs49 ways... the spider would probably make the joysticks suck for many other games. 

I would love to see someone do a full review and add it to their other joystick reviews... with games like SF ect.... hint hint hint


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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2005, 08:12:42 am »
Randy, put me down for 2.  ;D
Great product that I have been looking for for awhile.  thanks!

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2005, 08:36:27 am »
Sometimes they had the hardware... and then implemented it into the controller code..  It wasn't always decided after it was done :)

But it doesn't matter.  If you want some games to run the way you remember it... you need the right controls.  Some games don't play well on some joysticks (try gyrus or timepilots with a happs comp or happs ultimate).   And this is specifically what they are talking about here.  Sinister doesn't play will without the spider.  Sure you can get it to work.. but it doesn't feel right (ie like you remember playing it)

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2005, 09:49:43 am »
man...and i thought you guys were BYOACers...

Yep.

Quote
randy has come to us offering us a great new plug and play controller and all that i hear is how we don't need it.

Nope.

What you heard, in the beginning, was "how's it work?".
That is the BYOAC Mantra.

When no real answers came from that, the questions switched to "How's it different from....?", and "Why not just use....?".

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2005, 10:08:52 am »
What are the differences between the $22.95 "No-Solder" Eco Version and the $34.95 GP-Wiz49 MAX Interface Board?  A couple of screws and some standoffs don't sound worth $12.   

Also I have a mini-pac I currently use with a trackball and a spinner, what would this work alongside my mini-pac?

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2005, 10:18:03 am »
While nice for standard 49 way...

   I personally see the additional features as purely a novelty.

  If playing a 2way game of  galaga... and you accidentally press down+diagnol left...
then your move will not register.  This will mean you will have made a costly pause.. and may have died as a result of the non action.

Statements like these make me think the unwritten rule stating that one should have some real experience with something before "poo-poo"ing  it,  should actually be put in writing.

I'm not sure what you are referring to with the above, but I wholeheartedly assure you that this does NOT happen. 

While I can appreciate that you want to keep details of your work to yourself, you are the only one who can explain why this is not the case.  If I'm to accept that this digital restrictor thing really is useful, I need to know what it does that MAME wouldn't.
---GEC

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2005, 10:22:20 am »
What are the differences between the $22.95 "No-Solder" Eco Version and the $34.95 GP-Wiz49 MAX Interface Board?

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2005, 10:33:43 am »
What are the differences between the $22.95 "No-Solder" Eco Version and the $34.95 GP-Wiz49 MAX Interface Board?  A couple of screws and some standoffs don't sound worth $12.   

If you feel the screw-connects aren't worth $12, you don't have to pay for them.  (Really, it's great that we get the option.  $20 is a great price point for the GP encoders IMO.)  You can add them yourself.  In fact, I've considered doing exactly that with my GP-Wiz Eco...

...But then I realized that I really didn't want to deal with the extra work of setting up screw-terminals on a second board, connecting the first board to the second, and then connecting the controls...  When I think about that, paying an extra $15 to have that stuff on the board doesn't sound so bad.  :)
---GEC

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2005, 10:41:09 am »
What are the differences between the $22.95 "No-Solder" Eco Version and the $34.95 GP-Wiz49 MAX Interface Board?  A couple of screws and some standoffs don't sound worth $12.   

If you feel the screw-connects aren't worth $12, you don't have to pay for them.  (Really, it's great that we get the option.  $20 is a great price point for the GP encoders IMO.)  You can add them yourself.  In fact, I've considered doing exactly that with my GP-Wiz Eco...

...But then I realized that I really didn't want to deal with the extra work of setting up screw-terminals on a second board, connecting the first board to the second, and then connecting the controls...  When I think about that, paying an extra $15 to have that stuff on the board doesn't sound so bad.  :)

So the cheap one has just holes, the middle has pins soldered in, and the max has screw posts?  The description in the message or the web site don't make that point very clear.

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2005, 10:50:54 am »
While I can appreciate that you want to keep details of your work to yourself, you are the only one who can explain why this is not the case.

I thought I did a pretty good job of it, given that I didn't have any "inside" info.

Quote
If I'm to accept that this digital restrictor thing really is useful, I need to know what it does that MAME wouldn't.
Quote

The digital restrictor SHOULD prevent MAME from seeing data that it can't use (i.e. a diagonal signal in a 4-way game).

Again, I'm not SURE how it was implemented by Randy in this specific instance though.


Using the P360 for example, it is fully capable of sending MAME a diagonal input.
At that point MAME has to decide what to do with it.
The standard is for it to completely ignore any control input until the stick is back at a TRUE direction.
That results in HUGE dead spots in the corners.



The restrictor on the 49-way has two options for overcoming this:

1) It can ignore any TRUE diagonal (i.e. x=2, y=2), and send x=2/y=1 as Right and x=1/y=2 as Up.
This will create a deadspot in the stick along the EXACT diagonal path, but will be a smaller one than the P-360 has due to the increased resolution on the 49-way.

2) The grid can be weighted so that the TRUE diagonals send either a Right signal, or an Up signal, rather than sending unusable data.
I THINK this is the route Randy opted for, but only he can confirm that.
This method results in NO dead spot, and NO unusable data being sent to MAME.

Randy said that this device functions as closely as possible to the real thing, and this option is as close as I can get on a 49-way grid to a 4-way controller.

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2005, 11:09:19 am »
So the cheap one has just holes, the middle has pins soldered in, and the max has screw posts?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 11:27:02 am by SirPoonga »

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2005, 11:45:20 am »
Yeah, I never wanted to setup mame analog +.... too lazy.
Raspberry Pi, AttractMode, and Skeletor enthusiast.

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2005, 11:57:21 am »
Based on what I've heard from RandyT in this thread, here are the function grids for the modes, as best I can determine.

I'm still not SURE which grid he is using for the 4-way restrictor, but would bet that it is the 2nd or 3rd based on the fact that he doesn't mention dead spots in its functionality.



As you can see, the 2-way horizontal mode sends only a left or right signal based on the X coordinate only.

Also note that, in the 2nd and 3rd grids for 4-way, there is NO way for MAME to receive a diagonal signal.
This should make it respond exactly like a 4-way ELECTRONICALLY, although it will still allow you to travel outside the "normal" path of a 4-way MECHANICALLY.

I am also not POSITIVE of the implementation of the Rotated 4-way mode, but used the example that made the most sense to me.
I weighted the grid so that STICK STRAIGHT UP would yield an Up command in MAME, etc...

Likewise, RandyT may have made the diagonals a bit thicker on the 8-way mode by incorporating (x=2, y=1) and (x=1, y=2) into the diagonal, rather than mapping them to their true direction.
I used their true direction based on the fact that, if the stick is farther right than up, you probably meant for it to send a right signal, rather than a diagonal.
This limits the diagonals as much as possible, resulting in more shots going to the true directions, and less to the diagonals, on Robotron.

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2005, 12:13:06 pm »
Randy --

Thanks for continuing to push the frontier in this hobby!  You and a few other dedicated souls continue to develop products that make a real difference.  If it works as advertized, I think this is a revolutionary product for cab builders -- especially commercial cab builders making products for non-technical types.  Kudos and good luck!

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2005, 12:36:06 pm »
Pardon my ignorance, I have 2 questions.

Do many games use/need a 49-way joystick?

For Randy T.: Will this product work with 8-ways, possibly eliminating the need for 4 to 8-way switchable type sticks?

Love the idea of being able to play Congo Bongo and Qbert diagonally without having a frankenpanel with several dedicated joysticks.
Economy is always an issue here too.
I am also one of those who has little patience for configuring software, this may be a useful product for me.
When someone get this in hand and has done some playtesting, Please post a review link for our reference.
Thanks Randy T. (and all BYOACers) ! 

ARCADIAC!

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2005, 12:45:06 pm »
randy,

will you be offering the happ 49-way in your store?  it sounds like that would be the best way to go, since happ is so expensive, and if you had them, we could order everything at once.

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2005, 12:46:41 pm »
Pardon my ignorance, I have 2 questions.

Do many games use/need a 49-way joystick?
In mame, only 3 games.
You could use this as a psuedo analog stick for analog games and PC games which is the biggest advantage of this stick.

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2005, 12:51:28 pm »
No-one,

You may find it very interesting that only your 2-ways diagrams and one other are correct. :)

The rest were some of the first iterations that didn't work properly for one reason or another. But you certainly have the right idea.

And you are correct in that the host never gets data that it needs to try to translate into something useful.  The profoundly overlooked difference  is that the hardware now makes ALL the decisions about how things are translated, not the software.  And regardless of what has been said in this thread, anyone with any experience with these sticks knows that there is very little, if any, room for adjustment with these grids.  Either they behave as they should, or they do not.  There are NO, and I stress this, NO in-betweens.  What works well is based entirely on the behaviour of the mechanisms, not a theoretical grid pattern in which you are free to play.

And this is the point I have been trying make here.  What you think should work, doesn't, and what you think shouldn't, does.

If I posted the actual maps, the naysayers would have a field day espousing what they think they know about them.


The only way you can really judge this is to actually use one.   But I already see a few orders, so at least some will be finding out for themselves. :)

RandyT


« Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 12:53:46 pm by RandyT »

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2005, 01:00:35 pm »
Hey,

So on another note - any options with this encoder for letting the PC host software tell the encoder which mapping to use, rather than having the user switch manually?

The choice of the correct mapping seems invariably tied to what software is running - and this is something the PC always knows.  The user generally knows what's running, too - but they shouldn't have to be involved in something that could be so easily automated...
---GEC

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2005, 01:05:14 pm »
If I posted the actual maps, the naysayers would have a field day espousing what they think they know about them.

Of course.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 01:13:48 pm by SirPoonga »

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2005, 01:08:32 pm »
Hey,

So on another note - any options with this encoder for letting the PC host software tell the encoder which mapping to use, rather than having the user switch manually?

The choice of the correct mapping seems invariably tied to what software is running - and this is something the PC always knows.

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2005, 01:16:15 pm »
Another question of mine that got lost in the middle of it all.  Your board is powering the the joystick, right?

If yes then there's another advantage of this interface.

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #67 on: February 28, 2005, 01:36:39 pm »

 Just a slight correction to NoOne

 "although it will still allow you to travel outside the "normal" path of a 4-way MECHANICALLY."

   Yes it allows the travel on the outside of the 'square' - but - a true 4ways
'mechanical' path is NOT  square.  Its more like a diamond.  (or at least, a square on a 45 degree angle)  This keeps the reactions a bit tighter as you do not have to all the way into the corners.   

 

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #68 on: February 28, 2005, 01:49:19 pm »
And this is the point I have been trying make here.
This opinion was created from 100% post consumed information.

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #69 on: February 28, 2005, 01:51:40 pm »
Thanks for all the products, it's really great to have options to try out.
This opinion was created from 100% post consumed information.

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #70 on: February 28, 2005, 01:52:13 pm »
Hey,

So on another note - any options with this encoder for letting the PC host software tell the encoder which mapping to use, rather than having the user switch manually?

The choice of the correct mapping seems invariably tied to what software is running - and this is something the PC always knows.  The user generally knows what's running, too - but they shouldn't have to be involved in something that could be so easily automated...

No, RandyT hasn't described anything like that.

The PC doesn't always know what the controls actually are (hence the controls.dat project).

The PC always knows what game is running, and knowing what game is enough information to know what type of controls you need.  (Whether or not MAME knows the answers, the answers are there, and hence this is something that can and should be automated in the front-end.)

Because Randy hasn't described anything like that is precisely why I asked him!  :)
---GEC

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #71 on: February 28, 2005, 02:01:44 pm »
No, RandyT hasn't described anything like that.

The PC doesn't always know what the controls actually are (hence the controls.dat project).

The PC always knows what game is running, and knowing what game is enough information to know what type of controls you need.
This opinion was created from 100% post consumed information.

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #72 on: February 28, 2005, 02:02:07 pm »
See, Randy, I TOLD you they would want to know about the mappings!  ;)

Look, folks, Randy's playtested this thing, and built his grids to PLAY well, rathen than LOOK good on the grid.  No, he hasn't given me any insider info (though I've been asking! ;) ) about how the grids map, but he did explain that the mechanical properties of the Midway stick make it react a little different than the way the grids look on paper, and he's built his mapping to correct for that.  Do I want to SEE the grids myself?  Yes!  But I'm not going to get to, because he feels he's done a lot of work to make his grid mappings work better than the other option on the market, and is understandably concerned that current or future competitors might piggyback off of that work.  I don't LIKE not having the grids to see, but I can UNDERSTAND his reasoning.

As for whether somebody SHOULD be using this thing and a 49 way instead of digitals and an analog- Why are we arguing over this?  Obviously, the BEST solution is always to use the correct, original controlls for each and every game.  How many people here do that?  This is an OPTION, that allows us to "get away" with using one stick for everything.  I mean, it covers 7 different sticks!  It'll work near perfect on some games, pretty good on some, barely acceptably on some, and downright poorly on some.  Whether it's worth it to save the $$ and the control panel real estate for the other 6 sticks,  is a question for each individual user, and therefore a waste of time to argue over.   

But really, even if you don't want to use the "digitally restricted" modes, it's still nice to have another 49-way option on the market.   Personally, I AM going to use a real horizontal 2-way, a real vertical 2-way, a real 4-way, a real diagonal 4-way, a real 8-way, and a real analog stick, plus the 49-way, so if I take one of these instead of the SJC, I'll probably only be using it for 49 way games most of the time. 

So, Thanks Randy!

------------------
Randy- You said something about discontinuing support for the Williams 49 if it proved impossible to get good mappings for it.. Don't you dare!  ;D  I plan on using Williams 49s instead of the Midway 49s, for more or less the reasons Xiaou2 listed in his novel-length post- the increasing resistance felt as you move further from the center due to the spider.  I HUNGER for Sini-Star!  Even if the restriction mappings don't work out to your satisfaction (which I doubt, I bet you find they're much more straightforward than on the Midway), please leave the code in, so I can use 'em as 49s. 

And since SirP's already brought up custom mappings (see, I told ya again!) what about a 49-way only version, with 7 different levels of "progressive-ness" on the progressive scaling?

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #73 on: February 28, 2005, 02:21:00 pm »
I'd be really nice if someone could start repro'ing the Williams 49way as well...  I'm aware that there are only so few of them in existence....
I Haven't Lost My Mind, It's Backed Up On Disk Somewhere.

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #74 on: February 28, 2005, 02:30:58 pm »
See, Randy, I TOLD you they would want to know about the mappings!

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #75 on: February 28, 2005, 02:36:25 pm »
Quote
I'd want to know some idea on how this thing is going to work before I buy it. Unless RandyT is going to give a money back guarantee.

Done.

Money back guarantee for the No-Solder and MAX versions. 

So, how many can I put you down for? :)

RandyT

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #76 on: February 28, 2005, 02:38:11 pm »
And this is the point I have been trying make here.  What you think should work, doesn't, and what you think shouldn't, does.

RandyT

I don't think this will work, so you mean this does?




Hehe.  Chaos restriction mode......

RandyT

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #77 on: February 28, 2005, 02:47:55 pm »
No, RandyT hasn't described anything like that.

The PC doesn't always know what the controls actually are (hence the controls.dat project).

The PC always knows what game is running, and knowing what game is enough information to know what type of controls you need.  (Whether or not MAME knows the answers, the answers are there, and hence this is something that can and should be automated in the front-end.)

Because Randy hasn't described anything like that is precisely why I asked him!  :)

SirP gave you the answer, go search on the controls.dat project and you'll understand it.  I'm sure the project could use your help. 

Thanks, I'm familiar with controls.dat.  But my question wasn't about controls.dat or about how to set up a front-end.  My question was whether the GP-Wiz49 would, now or in the future, support switching modes via software.

I could assume the answer I've been given is correct.  I could also have assumed that was the case from the beginning.  I'm not interested in assumptions.
---GEC

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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #78 on: February 28, 2005, 02:49:00 pm »
Darn you, Randy!
--Chris
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Re: New Product: 49-Way USB Interface - The GP-Wiz49 with DRS Technology (TM)
« Reply #79 on: February 28, 2005, 02:54:25 pm »
[The PC always knows what game is running, and knowing what game is enough information to know what type of controls you need.