Best joysticks for Robotron style games?

[brandon]

Regarding the Retroblast review, it's one man's opinion. And regarding this line from his review:

"but the lack of feedback about when you've pushed the joystick far enough took some getting used to."

The "feedback" is inthe games! You don't need to feel or hear a click because right on the screen your character will move (visual feedback) and as with most games will also have a movement sound effect (audio feedback).

~Ray B.

The clicky "feedback" is more important for newer games like the MK series when doing fatalities and such where you do a precise series of movements and dont really get any visual feedback until the sequence is done.. (ie, DWN, FWD, BCK, BCK, HK)  but even then it can be done just fine with a Wico stick after you get used to where the diagonals are.. In fact a imagine quite a few of the newer MK and Tekken fighter games probably had 360s in which case you down feel any feedback..  I seem to recall Total Carnage and Smash TV having the same bat handle sticks that most MK games had and I dont think they were 360s.. 

[FractalWalk]

I seem to recall Total Carnage and Smash TV having the same bat handle sticks that most MK games had and I dont think they were 360s..

[brandon]

hmm.. I guess it did
 http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?letter=&game_id=9591
The one at my local arcade must've been a conversion or I just dont remember that far back
http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?letter=&game_id=10167
Total Carnage had bat style sticks which could've been Supers, or Competitions..I guess it was whatever they put in the rest of the Midway cabs..

[MameMaster!]

**MameMaster puts on protective gear as he prepares his next statement...**

...I just built a dual joy using **GASP!** XArcade sticks....and um, they work great for me!.....(very responsive).....

**MameMaster now ducks and goes into the fetal position**

 

[RandyT]

Suddnly there's all these choices..  SlikStik or GroovyGameGear's Stainless or Anodized, and now Tom's transulcents are back.  Too cool!  If only I could decide...

Just so you know.......

GroovyGameGear will have translucents on the site in the next day or so.

Red, Blue, Yellow and Green

RandyT

[brandon]

Suddnly there's all these choices..

[NoOne=NBA=]

...I just built a dual joy using **GASP!** XArcade sticks....and um, they work great for me!.....(very responsive).....

That's not the issue here though.
Do they work as well as Wicos for games like Robotron?


You CAN play Tron with a top-fire Super, but not anywhere near as well as with an original Tron stick.

Likewise you CAN play Pacman with a Happs "Ultimate", but not as well as with a dedicated 4-way.

ETC.....

ETC.....

ETC.....

[MameMaster!]

well for me.... XArcade brand joys = Perfect game play in my new dual joy controller. Again, for me it works great and I'm very very happy with how they work.

So .....if you don't have a lot of $$ my opinion is give them a try, they're only $15. bucks for 2 (they just went up from $10. for 2)....

Also, I personally can't compare them to Wico's as I've had no recent access to those.....

As with anything....it depends on your personal preference.

I think you'll do well with any Happ for that matter.

MameMaster!

[RandyT]

Suddnly there's all these choices..  SlikStik or GroovyGameGear's Stainless or Anodized, and now Tom's transulcents are back.  Too cool!  If only I could decide...

Just so you know.......

GroovyGameGear will have translucents on the site in the next day or so.

Red, Blue, Yellow and Green

RandyT

lighted ones would be SO awesome.. probably not possible eh?  if a hole could be drilled through the shaft to allow an LED and wiring.. that would be cool.. I wonder if that would weaken the shaft significantly?

No current plans to offer them lighted.....however.....

The shafts I have in stock for the Prodigy Retro sticks are pre-drilled, so if you are looking to do that, the Retro will give you one heck of a start

RandyT

[Chris]

well for me.... XArcade brand joys = Perfect game play in my new dual joy controller. Again, for me it works great and I'm very very happy with how they work.

<...>

I think you'll do well with any Happ for that matter.

The XArcade sticks are essentially Happ Super clones, so they should feel about the same.  I have Supers, and they're fine for many games, but they're awful for 4-way games.  I installed a Nintendo DK Jr. 4-way stick for those, but it has a really long throw and a weak spring, so it's nearly worthless for a game like Pac-Man.  For that matter, it doesn't work well in Donkey Kong, either, and since it was probably meant for a metal panel it's really short on my wooden panel, even with space routed out.  I'm considering moving to one of the top-of-the-panel switchable sticks, but they're not mounting-hole compatible with the Happs so I'd have to take apart my panel again....

What I'd really love are switchable sticks with top-fire blue ball handles, but I don't think I'll ever have that dream come true...

--Chris

[Stingray]

Just so you know.......

GroovyGameGear will have translucents on the site in the next day or so.

Red, Blue, Yellow and Green

RandyT

Cool, I'm glad I put off ordering. Must have translucent.

-S

[quarterback]

Just so you know.......

GroovyGameGear will have translucents on the site in the next day or so.

Are these the "versaball" sticks or a different item?

[Hiub1]

I think you should try and get a pair of Wico 8 ways with the P360 optical adapter. I have a pair here, and let me tell you they are just amazing! The feel of the grommet with the response of the optical joystick really makes them a joy to use. I have been using this set-up for my DC games, and when I have to go back to MAME I really dread using the old competitions with heavy springs. There are usually a couple of these adaptors on ebay.

[brandon]

The shafts I have in stock for the Prodigy Retro sticks are pre-drilled, so if you are looking to do that, the Retro will give you one heck of a start

RandyT

so if I understand this correctly the shaft "hollow" in the center so if you had a translucent ball and push a small led up the shaft in theory it would light it? or does the ball screw onto the shaft with some type of recessed nut that wouldn't allow the LED to get far enough..

[Apollo]

Ok just gotta say I have never played an original ROBOTRON but I have played a lot of ROBOTRON on my MAME cab using 2 X Competition joysticks and they work just fine.

[Xiaou2]

 Apollo...

  As much as I hate to say exactly how good wico leaf 8 ways are - (because that will make them harder for me to aquire more...)  it has to be said...

  I thought the same thing as you...  That Comps would work fine.  I love comps for fighters and others.

  However... after finding a real machine and getting to play its real wico's... I almost cried!   The difference in control was astronomical.

  And let me tell you... that game is so hard and unforgiving... that you need every bit of control as possible.

  I think with my comps... I got to level 10 at best in mame.   On the real machine... Ive hit up to level 42 I think.   

  The comps have too much deadzone for this game.   Whereas if you need to move from left to right... it takes too much joystick travel to preform... thus it takes too long, thus a robot touches you and you are dead. 

 Also...  the comps have those square actuators... which means you 
feel the corners.   Your sticks actuator has to travel deep into the corner for a diagnol.   On a wico..the diagnols are closer - so activate quicker.   Imagine having to run bases in a baseball game...  whats faster:

 1) use a standard square pathway,   run all the bases normally
 2) make the running pathway round, run the circle

 Making the path round cuts a lot of time off your travel. 

 The micro switches themselves also have a certain amount of travel in them till they click on.  There is actually more travel in them, than the direct contact in a leaf swicth on the wico's.  Also the wicos leafs are easier to push = less resistence = less fighting = more speed.

 Anyways... try this:

 Grab your comp. bat and roll it arround in a clockwise circle as fast as you can for 20 seconds.   Notice how clunky it feels as you do it.  Notice how you are sometimes missing the diagnols while trying to keep moving in a fast circle.  Notice how much effort it takes.  Notice how wide the circle you have to make, and how long it takes to make a single revolution. (and then btw - look under the joystick and you will see a fine white powder.  That was the joystick spacer grinding away from all the rough circle play.  Easily replaced... but shows a poor design of this stick)   

  Supers are capable of better circular motion as they have a round actuator. However.. they still suffer from too much stick travel, micro-leafs (prone to being bent and destroyed), stiff movment = way slower.

  Try to make it past level 25 without cheats.  You can use easy dip settings... but no cheats.  I doubt any comp. owner could come close
to that level with those sticks.   Of course... if they did, thier joy is probably destroyed... and,  they could have made it to level 100 with wico's   : )

 

[PaulG]

 Apollo...

  As much as I hate to say exactly how good wico leaf 8 ways are - (because that will make them harder for me to aquire more...)  it has to be said...

You have no idea how true this is.  I love Robotron, but it absolutely sucks with my T-Stik Plus'.  Reading this thread, it's on my next-to-do list.

[MrBond]

I'll have to try robotron with my standalone panel; I made it all leaf (save for two micro switch "mouse buttons")- 2 wico? joysticks (slide in from top leaf switch, but they do have springs?), and a bunch of leaf switch buttons.  Also a trackball from track and field.

My cab has a super and a x-arcade knockoff super (to be replaced someday by a super), a e-stik for 4-way and q-bert, along with all microswitch buttons.  I used the other trackball from track and field.

The differences are interesting.  The standalone is better for older games (galaga, gyruss, time pilot, donkey kong, pacman...ect).  I like quickly depressing the leaf buttons to fire, and doing a circle in time pilot without all the clickies that you get from a micro switch.  For fighters though, the wicos don't cut it at all; this is were the supers shine through.  I do play a lot of time pilot though with the supers, and I got pretty good (um...what is a good high score for tp?  Just wondering, as its my fav. game ).

ALso, if you like robotron, try out the pc game "mutant storm".  The demo is free.

[FractalWalk]

I have played a lot of ROBOTRON on my MAME cab using 2 X Competition joysticks and they work just fine.

Spoken like one who has never played the originals.

[Gunstar Hero]

The Happs P360 is awesome for Robotron. Quick, responsive and no corners!

[PaulG]

Not to go off-topic, but since there seems to be some Wico experts in this thread, do their Leaf buttons increase your fire rate?  Track & Field is one of my favorite multiplayer games, but I've (Nor anyone I've played with) has ever gotten to max speed.  The 4*100 in the sequel is especially hilarious as we pound away with our lousy times (Can qualify, so it's not some hardware defect that makes it really bad).  Did the original Track & Field games use Leaf buttons?  Thanks.

[Gunstar Hero]

I'm pretty sure it did. You didn't start seeing alot of microswitches 'till later in the '80's.

[FractalWalk]

The Happs P360 is awesome for Robotron. Quick, responsive and no corners!

I have never played the 360s but I would imagine that they would be inferior to the WICOs for Robotron due to lack of rubber grommet and leaf switches. But that is just a guess. Have you played both?

Not to go off-topic, but since there seems to be some Wico experts in this thread, do their Leaf buttons increase your fire rate?

[PaulG]

The Happs P360 is awesome for Robotron. Quick, responsive and no corners!

I have never played the 360s but I would imagine that they would be inferior to the WICOs for Robotron due to lack of rubber grommet and leaf switches. But that is just a guess. Have you played both?

Not to go off-topic, but since there seems to be some Wico experts in this thread, do their Leaf buttons increase your fire rate?

Leaf buttons are far superior to microswitch when it comes to quick firing. I mentioned earlier that Galaga plays much differently for me with leaf vs. microswitch. With Leaf you are able to "float" the button just above the trip point. If you have a sensitive touch, you can rapid fire much quicker than the switch which has to travel back up farther to turn off.

Track and Field is the same story. I am not a big Defender player but I would imagine the same holds true for that game.

Thanks.  I figured as much.  In fact, I was just playing Galaga and was thinking this is another game that could use a kick in the pants.

[Gunstar Hero]

I can't say that the P360's are better than the Wicos, but I can say that they are far better than the Comps for Robotron.

I'm willing to bet that they're probably fairly evenly matched, with a very firm feel and smooth clickless action tho.

[Apollo]

Hmmm maybe my comps are the reason I can only get up to about level 7!

[Xiaou2]

  While I havnt tried a P360...  mechanically,  its pretty easy to see that there are difference that will make them less responsive to a wico.

  They both have a round motion...  and that means that if you roll the character in a circular motion, it will be smooth and seamless. 
However, if you were to go directly from left to right - there would be a gap to cross.  The distance from left to right = the reaction time speed.

 The wicos have a very fast reaction time, as there is litterally no gap.  The switches are 1mm away from the actuator, and each switch is about 1mm from activation.  You do not have to press the joystick to its fullest direction. 

 In a 360, the optics can be as good as a leaf - better since they do not get bent out of shape.  However... I think it really depends on how far appart the sensors are from activation.   Im willing to bet that they arnt as close to activation as the wicos.  This may have to do with  how accurate the sensor beam is.  Also,  it may have to do with safety - as many games you need more activation space (dead-zone) to avoid hitting the wrong directions on accident. (for compatibilty of other games)
 
  The other factor is leverage.  If the sticks pivot point is too low, it will take too much travel to get the actuator to ht the switches.   And, the higher the stick, the more distance you hand has to move
thus again,  making slower reactions.

  Also said, the springs vs gromet  plays a factor here too.
     

[Xiaou2]

 Apollo, yes, level 7 is low - and its mostly due to comps.

 However... heres a tip:

  Make sure to try to get all the Humans on a level before going to the next level. 

  Each human saved you get a progressive point scale:
    1st  = 100
    2nd = 200
    3rd = 300
    4th = 400
     5th = 500  and  1 EXTRA GUY ! : )
     6th and above =  1 Extra guy for each extra human saved!

 So... the key is the Brain stage.   About evey 5th level, you are on the brain stage, where there are Tons of humans all over the place.  This is your chance to stock up fast on extra men so as to be able to make it to the next brain wave...ect.   

 Also, simple but common mistake:   Make sure you can shoot in the direction of an enemy while walking in a differnt direction.   While  you can walk and shoot in the same direction,  most times you will need to be able to walk and shoot in different direction.


   

[Apollo]

Awesome good tips, I didn't know about the extra lives thing, I wonder if my new T-stick pluses will improve things, I'm guessing not.

[NoOne=NBA=]

This is your chance to stock up fast on extra men so as to be able to make it to the next brain wave...ect.

[Xiaou2]

oops : )   I guess things were happening so fast that it appeared as tho every guy after 5th was an extra.   

  I did find in mame that there is no Dip switches.  However,  there is a test menu to alter the difficulty and points to earn extra guys.

  Im pretty sure the friend at the arcade used a lower difficulty level for his machine.   He gave 5 men per player as well.