Best joysticks for Robotron style games?

[thrash242]

I'm eventually going to be building a alternate panel for Robotron/SmashTV/TotalCarnage and I was wondering what you would recomment for the joysticks?  The J-Stiks on my current panel don't work too well, because they have very square movement.

I'm thinking about the P360s, but for four of them, I'd have to spend about $200 (of course, that's all I'd need besides start buttons).  Are they that fantastic for smooth diagonals?  4-way isn't an issue, as I'd just be using them for Robotron style games.

[NoOne=NBA=]

How about Robotron sticks?
That's what I'd get.
Seriously.

Get some Wico 8-way leafswitch sticks.
That's what was used at the factory.

[FractalWalk]

For Robotron/Smash use 8-way WICO leafs with rubber grommet . . . there is no substitute.

[brandon]

http://www.centsibleamusements.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=415

of course.. Robotron used long shafts than the stock Wico sticks but I dont see that as being a real big deal.. especially if you are mounting them on a metal control panel.. that would probably make up for the length difference.. or if your using wood you could route out pockets to make it thinner where the joystick goes..

[spidermonkey]

http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13718&item=6149757241&rd=1

Here ya go. These are the real deal if you want to experience Robotron and Smash TV the way they were in the arcade. The price may go up a bit more since these are brand new (new old stock). If you grew up in the arcades back when Robotron came out then you're probably not going to like the feel of todays spring loaded microswitch joysticks as they feel nothing like the good ole' Wicos with their rubber centering grommet design.

[brandon]

what's the difference between those and the ones I linked to other than they are 2x the price?

[Samstag]

what's the difference between those and the ones I linked to other than they are 2x the price?

Besides the fact that the auction is for 2 sticks?

It's 2 real Wico joysticks.

[NoOne=NBA=]

what's the difference between those and the ones I linked to other than they are 2x the price?

The sticks you linked to are the Chinese knock-offs.
They copied part of the 4-way Wico, part of the 8-way, and came up with a poorly fitting stick that won't do EITHER job well.
There are numerous reports on the board here that the Chinese ones are terrible.

[Stingray]

Get some Wico 8-way leafswitch sticks.
That's what was used at the factory.

Just installed a pair of those on my panel and can confirm that nothing beats 'em for Robotron.

-S

[telengard]

For Robotron/Smash use 8-way WICO leafs with rubber grommet . . . there is no substitute.

I totally agree.  Nothing feels the same as the originals.

[SirPeale]

what's the difference between those and the ones I linked to other than they are 2x the price?

Besides the fact that the auction is for 2 sticks?

It's 2 real Wico joysticks.

I read the auction as one joystick, with two sticks.

[bigle]

I read the auction as one joystick, with two sticks.

it says two complete with assembly and two extra sticks

and

3 joysticks are blue and 1 is red



wicos not withstanding, what is the best current stick (still being manufactured) for these types of games?  supers?  something else?

[Stingray]

Supers work great on Neo Geo games. I put a set on my MVS last night. I don't think they'd be ideal for Robotron, but they are good sticks.

-S

[NoOne=NBA=]

The only stick out there that is currently manufactured, and has the same feel as the Wico sticks is the P360.

Everything else will have square corners to some extent, including some of the later Wico sticks that used the square actuators on the bottom.

[brandon]

what's the difference between those and the ones I linked to other than they are 2x the price?

Besides the fact that the auction is for 2 sticks?

It's 2 real Wico joysticks.

oops.. I apolize for that.. That's what I get for posting at 3am when I should be in bed   not only didnt a not notice there were 2 stick but I also didnt notice the ones I linked to were cheap knock-offs.. I just ASSsumed with the gray bases that they were original Wico sticks... 

[Jakobud]

If only Andy could make the ultimate joystick:

4-8 way switchable T-Stick that used leaf springs and had the throw of the J-Stick....

[NoOne=NBA=]

The problem with a switchable 4/8-way is that it HAS to have a square feel in 8-way mode.
The restrictor that MAKES it a 4-way makes it feel square in 8-way mode.

The only way around this would be to have a restrictor that ONLY affected the stick in 4-way mode.
The only way I've seen to accomplish that so far is to use a restrictor plate.

It would be possible to have a restrictor that kind of slid in and out from the four diagonals, and only blocked movement in 4-way mode, but nobody has designed/produced one yet.

-----------------------------------------------------------

The real tell-tale on Wico/not-Wico is the screw-on leafswitches.
Wico had leafswitches that pushed into a holder from the top.
The knock-offs use a "bolt on from the side" system.

[Doc-]

I recently installed some Happs Perfect 360's and have to agree that they are very good for this type of game.  It felt like I was cheating.

Doc-

[IreM72]

From reading the threads a lot of people like them and say they are great sticks so,

my questions:

Did most of the 4 way and 8 way arcade machines of the 80s and 90s have these Wico leaf and microswitch joysticks?

Were they used for all game types? (apart from the robotron and smash TV)

Would these wico (4 way and 8 way) sticks be good for all type of 4 way and 8 way games with no need for any other stick like T-stick, J-stick, super, competition etc?

[FractalWalk]

Each stick has its own advantages and disadvanatges. The Wico 8-ways are the best stick for Robotron/SMASH TV. It was what was used in the original games and you will play much better with those sticks than any other on those particular games.

However, for other games like fighters they may not work so well. So for Robotron, no you don't need any other stick, but for other games you might.

[Doc-]

my questions:
Did most of the 4 way and 8 way arcade machines of the 80s and 90s have these Wico leaf and microswitch joysticks?

Were they used for all game types? (apart from the robotron and smash TV)

Would these wico (4 way and 8 way) sticks be good for all type of 4 way and 8 way games with no need for any other stick like T-stick, J-stick, super, competition etc?

I have a lot of joysticks on my modular system, so it is fun to do side-by-side comparisons:

1. Yes, most of the old games used leaf joysticks.  In fact most buttons also used leaf switches.  The old wico's are great - I have a 4 way that is my favorite 4-way joystick - even over the pac man galaga reunion (which is very good too).

2. Yes, they were used for most game types - especially the early 80's.

3. It is a matter of preference - for example the ball top joysticks are not ideal for every game.  What feel's "right" for Robotron (which requires a short throw, smooth diagonals and quick switch time) might not be perfect for many more modern games.

The leaf joysticks went out of fashion largely because they periodically needed adjustment (the leaf would bend).  Not a big deal for your home system as you can easily make these adjustments, but certainly a factor in a high abuse arcade environment where a lot of machines are involved.

However, I see no reason why a few Wico's would not work well in your home system - especially if you like the feel of them.  Try to get the "old" wicos and not the new imitations from Asia.

Cheers!
Doc-

[southpaw13]

I got you all beat!  How about a pair of original Wico leaf 8-ways with a new set of Specialty Plastics translucent ball top joysticks?

[Kremmit]

Damn, those look good.  I didn't know he was making 'em again. 

Suddnly there's all these choices..  SlikStik or GroovyGameGear's Stainless or Anodized, and now Tom's transulcents are back.  Too cool!  If only I could decide...

[brandon]

ooh ooh.. those look sweet.. how about custom shafts with a holes through the middle to allow lighting with LEDs or fiber optics.... oooh.. that would be sweeeet!!! or combination top fire and leds.. with matching lighted buttons.. Mmm.. that would look so awesome.

[thrash242]

OK, it seems that Wico are the most original and best for Robotron style games.   I'll be looking for four matching ones.

Just out of curiosity, what would the best currently made joystick be?  P360?  Keep in mind that I never actually played Robotron in arcades (though I love it on my cabinet), but I did play the *hell* out of Smash TV and Total Carnage.  Did they use Wicos too?

I'm probably going with the Wicos, since they're a lot cheaper (especially since I need four) anyway, I'm just wondering.

[Wade]

I just sold a 49-way stick.  It had a rubber grommet and no corners at all, a very nice feel.  I'm not sure how these compare in feel to the P360's, but I think they would feel similar to the original 8-way rubber grommet Wico leafs.

Wade

[Stingray]

I got you all beat!  How about a pair of original Wico leaf 8-ways with a new set of Specialty Plastics translucent ball top joysticks?

SEXY!

-S

[GGKoul]

I got you all beat!

[GGKoul]

I didn't realize all the Wico knock-offs on ebay.

[JODY]

I've got P360s and Happ Competition sticks.

[NoOne=NBA=]

The problem with Comps is that they are too prone to STAYING in those corners.
You need to be able to spray your shots when moving diagonally, not just shoot diagonally.

With the Wicos, your shots will shoot some forward, some diagonal, some up as you rake back and forth in the corner.
With the Comps, you will get almost ALL your shots diagonally.
They just don't come out off the corners like the Wicos.

I haven't used the P360s (never seeing a need for them, since I have the Wicos), but there is a night/day difference between the Comps and Wicos performance-wise.

[southpaw13]

http://members.aol.com/specialtyplastic/index.htm

Here you go!  Great guy to work with.  Very unique items to keep your stuff looking different from everyone else...

[Minwah]

Pretty unhelpful, but here's a semi-related rant...

I've been playing a bit of Robotron / Smash TV / Total Carnage with my J-Stiks lately...the reason being I removed my 7th button (NeoGeo A) as it was getting in the way of my P2 stick for these games.  While I was (& still am) crap at the games I've noticed quite a bit of improvement in not too much play time.

I definately seemed to hit the diagonals too easily on the shoot stick probably due to the light throw of the stick and cack-handed-ness of my right hand.  Now I've got used to it, I'm not so bad (tho I wouldn't post my scores )

[JODY]

The problem with Comps is that they are too prone to STAYING in those corners.
You need to be able to spray your shots when moving diagonally, not just shoot diagonally.

I've got several competition sticks and haven't had a problem with them staying in the diagonals.

[FractalWalk]

I've got several competition sticks and haven't had a problem with them staying in the diagonals.

[NoOne=NBA=]

This is probably only an issue with Robotron/Smash TV as it is very important to be able to roll your joystick in and out of the corners smoothly. You need a sensitive stick with a round restrictor and leaf switches to do that.

Time Pilot and Gyruss are the other two games I can think of that really HAVE to have a round restrictor to play right.
I PREFER a round restrictor on Bosconian, but can do almost as well with a square restrictor.

Most fighters do BETTER with square restrictors, by contrast.

[JODY]

Here's a review of a leaf Wico:

http://www.retroblast.com/reviews/joysticks/wico.html

I've considered getting one but have stayed with the comps and P360s.  The reviewer above wasn't too thrilled with them.

I really like my P360's which have round restrictors, but have played Robotron with the comps and didn't have a problem.  Will have to compare more with the P360's once I get my cab done which won't be anytime soon.

[Peter Baluk]

have some originals here if you need them .Let me know.

[RayB]

Regarding the Retroblast review, it's one man's opinion. And regarding this line from his review:

"but the lack of feedback about when you've pushed the joystick far enough took some getting used to."

The "feedback" is inthe games! You don't need to feel or hear a click because right on the screen your character will move (visual feedback) and as with most games will also have a movement sound effect (audio feedback).

~Ray B.

[NoOne=NBA=]

The P360 is functionally the same stick as a good Wico.
They have no corners, and move smoothly.
If you've got P360s, there's no need to get Wicos.
The P360 was ORIGINALLY an add-on module for the standard Wicos, that replaced the leafswitches with optical ones.
They've redesigned it a bit for the stand-alone model, but the operation remains the same.

The bad review that Kevin gave the Wicos was from his own lack of familiarity with them, or because the one he had wasn't one of the GOOD Wico sticks.
I can't tell for sure from his data, but suspect it might have been both.

He claims that his Wico hung up in the corners, which leads me to believe it may have been a square restrictor transitional model.
He also claims that it felt really stiff due to the springs in it.
The GOOD Wicos didn't HAVE springs, but the square restrictor ones did.

[brandon]

Regarding the Retroblast review, it's one man's opinion. And regarding this line from his review:

"but the lack of feedback about when you've pushed the joystick far enough took some getting used to."

The "feedback" is inthe games! You don't need to feel or hear a click because right on the screen your character will move (visual feedback) and as with most games will also have a movement sound effect (audio feedback).

~Ray B.

The clicky "feedback" is more important for newer games like the MK series when doing fatalities and such where you do a precise series of movements and dont really get any visual feedback until the sequence is done.. (ie, DWN, FWD, BCK, BCK, HK)  but even then it can be done just fine with a Wico stick after you get used to where the diagonals are.. In fact a imagine quite a few of the newer MK and Tekken fighter games probably had 360s in which case you down feel any feedback..  I seem to recall Total Carnage and Smash TV having the same bat handle sticks that most MK games had and I dont think they were 360s.. 

[FractalWalk]

I seem to recall Total Carnage and Smash TV having the same bat handle sticks that most MK games had and I dont think they were 360s..

[brandon]

hmm.. I guess it did
 http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?letter=&game_id=9591
The one at my local arcade must've been a conversion or I just dont remember that far back
http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?letter=&game_id=10167
Total Carnage had bat style sticks which could've been Supers, or Competitions..I guess it was whatever they put in the rest of the Midway cabs..

[MameMaster!]

**MameMaster puts on protective gear as he prepares his next statement...**

...I just built a dual joy using **GASP!** XArcade sticks....and um, they work great for me!.....(very responsive).....

**MameMaster now ducks and goes into the fetal position**

 

[RandyT]

Suddnly there's all these choices..  SlikStik or GroovyGameGear's Stainless or Anodized, and now Tom's transulcents are back.  Too cool!  If only I could decide...

Just so you know.......

GroovyGameGear will have translucents on the site in the next day or so.

Red, Blue, Yellow and Green

RandyT

[brandon]

Suddnly there's all these choices..

[NoOne=NBA=]

...I just built a dual joy using **GASP!** XArcade sticks....and um, they work great for me!.....(very responsive).....

That's not the issue here though.
Do they work as well as Wicos for games like Robotron?


You CAN play Tron with a top-fire Super, but not anywhere near as well as with an original Tron stick.

Likewise you CAN play Pacman with a Happs "Ultimate", but not as well as with a dedicated 4-way.

ETC.....

ETC.....

ETC.....

[MameMaster!]

well for me.... XArcade brand joys = Perfect game play in my new dual joy controller. Again, for me it works great and I'm very very happy with how they work.

So .....if you don't have a lot of $$ my opinion is give them a try, they're only $15. bucks for 2 (they just went up from $10. for 2)....

Also, I personally can't compare them to Wico's as I've had no recent access to those.....

As with anything....it depends on your personal preference.

I think you'll do well with any Happ for that matter.

MameMaster!

[RandyT]

Suddnly there's all these choices..  SlikStik or GroovyGameGear's Stainless or Anodized, and now Tom's transulcents are back.  Too cool!  If only I could decide...

Just so you know.......

GroovyGameGear will have translucents on the site in the next day or so.

Red, Blue, Yellow and Green

RandyT

lighted ones would be SO awesome.. probably not possible eh?  if a hole could be drilled through the shaft to allow an LED and wiring.. that would be cool.. I wonder if that would weaken the shaft significantly?

No current plans to offer them lighted.....however.....

The shafts I have in stock for the Prodigy Retro sticks are pre-drilled, so if you are looking to do that, the Retro will give you one heck of a start

RandyT

[Chris]

well for me.... XArcade brand joys = Perfect game play in my new dual joy controller. Again, for me it works great and I'm very very happy with how they work.

<...>

I think you'll do well with any Happ for that matter.

The XArcade sticks are essentially Happ Super clones, so they should feel about the same.  I have Supers, and they're fine for many games, but they're awful for 4-way games.  I installed a Nintendo DK Jr. 4-way stick for those, but it has a really long throw and a weak spring, so it's nearly worthless for a game like Pac-Man.  For that matter, it doesn't work well in Donkey Kong, either, and since it was probably meant for a metal panel it's really short on my wooden panel, even with space routed out.  I'm considering moving to one of the top-of-the-panel switchable sticks, but they're not mounting-hole compatible with the Happs so I'd have to take apart my panel again....

What I'd really love are switchable sticks with top-fire blue ball handles, but I don't think I'll ever have that dream come true...

--Chris

[Stingray]

Just so you know.......

GroovyGameGear will have translucents on the site in the next day or so.

Red, Blue, Yellow and Green

RandyT

Cool, I'm glad I put off ordering. Must have translucent.

-S

[quarterback]

Just so you know.......

GroovyGameGear will have translucents on the site in the next day or so.

Are these the "versaball" sticks or a different item?

[Hiub1]

I think you should try and get a pair of Wico 8 ways with the P360 optical adapter. I have a pair here, and let me tell you they are just amazing! The feel of the grommet with the response of the optical joystick really makes them a joy to use. I have been using this set-up for my DC games, and when I have to go back to MAME I really dread using the old competitions with heavy springs. There are usually a couple of these adaptors on ebay.

[brandon]

The shafts I have in stock for the Prodigy Retro sticks are pre-drilled, so if you are looking to do that, the Retro will give you one heck of a start

RandyT

so if I understand this correctly the shaft "hollow" in the center so if you had a translucent ball and push a small led up the shaft in theory it would light it? or does the ball screw onto the shaft with some type of recessed nut that wouldn't allow the LED to get far enough..

[Apollo]

Ok just gotta say I have never played an original ROBOTRON but I have played a lot of ROBOTRON on my MAME cab using 2 X Competition joysticks and they work just fine.

[Xiaou2]

 Apollo...

  As much as I hate to say exactly how good wico leaf 8 ways are - (because that will make them harder for me to aquire more...)  it has to be said...

  I thought the same thing as you...  That Comps would work fine.  I love comps for fighters and others.

  However... after finding a real machine and getting to play its real wico's... I almost cried!   The difference in control was astronomical.

  And let me tell you... that game is so hard and unforgiving... that you need every bit of control as possible.

  I think with my comps... I got to level 10 at best in mame.   On the real machine... Ive hit up to level 42 I think.   

  The comps have too much deadzone for this game.   Whereas if you need to move from left to right... it takes too much joystick travel to preform... thus it takes too long, thus a robot touches you and you are dead. 

 Also...  the comps have those square actuators... which means you 
feel the corners.   Your sticks actuator has to travel deep into the corner for a diagnol.   On a wico..the diagnols are closer - so activate quicker.   Imagine having to run bases in a baseball game...  whats faster:

 1) use a standard square pathway,   run all the bases normally
 2) make the running pathway round, run the circle

 Making the path round cuts a lot of time off your travel. 

 The micro switches themselves also have a certain amount of travel in them till they click on.  There is actually more travel in them, than the direct contact in a leaf swicth on the wico's.  Also the wicos leafs are easier to push = less resistence = less fighting = more speed.

 Anyways... try this:

 Grab your comp. bat and roll it arround in a clockwise circle as fast as you can for 20 seconds.   Notice how clunky it feels as you do it.  Notice how you are sometimes missing the diagnols while trying to keep moving in a fast circle.  Notice how much effort it takes.  Notice how wide the circle you have to make, and how long it takes to make a single revolution. (and then btw - look under the joystick and you will see a fine white powder.  That was the joystick spacer grinding away from all the rough circle play.  Easily replaced... but shows a poor design of this stick)   

  Supers are capable of better circular motion as they have a round actuator. However.. they still suffer from too much stick travel, micro-leafs (prone to being bent and destroyed), stiff movment = way slower.

  Try to make it past level 25 without cheats.  You can use easy dip settings... but no cheats.  I doubt any comp. owner could come close
to that level with those sticks.   Of course... if they did, thier joy is probably destroyed... and,  they could have made it to level 100 with wico's   : )

 

[PaulG]

 Apollo...

  As much as I hate to say exactly how good wico leaf 8 ways are - (because that will make them harder for me to aquire more...)  it has to be said...

You have no idea how true this is.  I love Robotron, but it absolutely sucks with my T-Stik Plus'.  Reading this thread, it's on my next-to-do list.

[MrBond]

I'll have to try robotron with my standalone panel; I made it all leaf (save for two micro switch "mouse buttons")- 2 wico? joysticks (slide in from top leaf switch, but they do have springs?), and a bunch of leaf switch buttons.  Also a trackball from track and field.

My cab has a super and a x-arcade knockoff super (to be replaced someday by a super), a e-stik for 4-way and q-bert, along with all microswitch buttons.  I used the other trackball from track and field.

The differences are interesting.  The standalone is better for older games (galaga, gyruss, time pilot, donkey kong, pacman...ect).  I like quickly depressing the leaf buttons to fire, and doing a circle in time pilot without all the clickies that you get from a micro switch.  For fighters though, the wicos don't cut it at all; this is were the supers shine through.  I do play a lot of time pilot though with the supers, and I got pretty good (um...what is a good high score for tp?  Just wondering, as its my fav. game ).

ALso, if you like robotron, try out the pc game "mutant storm".  The demo is free.

[FractalWalk]

I have played a lot of ROBOTRON on my MAME cab using 2 X Competition joysticks and they work just fine.

Spoken like one who has never played the originals.

[Gunstar Hero]

The Happs P360 is awesome for Robotron. Quick, responsive and no corners!

[PaulG]

Not to go off-topic, but since there seems to be some Wico experts in this thread, do their Leaf buttons increase your fire rate?  Track & Field is one of my favorite multiplayer games, but I've (Nor anyone I've played with) has ever gotten to max speed.  The 4*100 in the sequel is especially hilarious as we pound away with our lousy times (Can qualify, so it's not some hardware defect that makes it really bad).  Did the original Track & Field games use Leaf buttons?  Thanks.

[Gunstar Hero]

I'm pretty sure it did. You didn't start seeing alot of microswitches 'till later in the '80's.

[FractalWalk]

The Happs P360 is awesome for Robotron. Quick, responsive and no corners!

I have never played the 360s but I would imagine that they would be inferior to the WICOs for Robotron due to lack of rubber grommet and leaf switches. But that is just a guess. Have you played both?

Not to go off-topic, but since there seems to be some Wico experts in this thread, do their Leaf buttons increase your fire rate?

[PaulG]

The Happs P360 is awesome for Robotron. Quick, responsive and no corners!

I have never played the 360s but I would imagine that they would be inferior to the WICOs for Robotron due to lack of rubber grommet and leaf switches. But that is just a guess. Have you played both?

Not to go off-topic, but since there seems to be some Wico experts in this thread, do their Leaf buttons increase your fire rate?

Leaf buttons are far superior to microswitch when it comes to quick firing. I mentioned earlier that Galaga plays much differently for me with leaf vs. microswitch. With Leaf you are able to "float" the button just above the trip point. If you have a sensitive touch, you can rapid fire much quicker than the switch which has to travel back up farther to turn off.

Track and Field is the same story. I am not a big Defender player but I would imagine the same holds true for that game.

Thanks.  I figured as much.  In fact, I was just playing Galaga and was thinking this is another game that could use a kick in the pants.

[Gunstar Hero]

I can't say that the P360's are better than the Wicos, but I can say that they are far better than the Comps for Robotron.

I'm willing to bet that they're probably fairly evenly matched, with a very firm feel and smooth clickless action tho.

[Apollo]

Hmmm maybe my comps are the reason I can only get up to about level 7!

[Xiaou2]

  While I havnt tried a P360...  mechanically,  its pretty easy to see that there are difference that will make them less responsive to a wico.

  They both have a round motion...  and that means that if you roll the character in a circular motion, it will be smooth and seamless. 
However, if you were to go directly from left to right - there would be a gap to cross.  The distance from left to right = the reaction time speed.

 The wicos have a very fast reaction time, as there is litterally no gap.  The switches are 1mm away from the actuator, and each switch is about 1mm from activation.  You do not have to press the joystick to its fullest direction. 

 In a 360, the optics can be as good as a leaf - better since they do not get bent out of shape.  However... I think it really depends on how far appart the sensors are from activation.   Im willing to bet that they arnt as close to activation as the wicos.  This may have to do with  how accurate the sensor beam is.  Also,  it may have to do with safety - as many games you need more activation space (dead-zone) to avoid hitting the wrong directions on accident. (for compatibilty of other games)
 
  The other factor is leverage.  If the sticks pivot point is too low, it will take too much travel to get the actuator to ht the switches.   And, the higher the stick, the more distance you hand has to move
thus again,  making slower reactions.

  Also said, the springs vs gromet  plays a factor here too.
     

[Xiaou2]

 Apollo, yes, level 7 is low - and its mostly due to comps.

 However... heres a tip:

  Make sure to try to get all the Humans on a level before going to the next level. 

  Each human saved you get a progressive point scale:
    1st  = 100
    2nd = 200
    3rd = 300
    4th = 400
     5th = 500  and  1 EXTRA GUY ! : )
     6th and above =  1 Extra guy for each extra human saved!

 So... the key is the Brain stage.   About evey 5th level, you are on the brain stage, where there are Tons of humans all over the place.  This is your chance to stock up fast on extra men so as to be able to make it to the next brain wave...ect.   

 Also, simple but common mistake:   Make sure you can shoot in the direction of an enemy while walking in a differnt direction.   While  you can walk and shoot in the same direction,  most times you will need to be able to walk and shoot in different direction.


   

[Apollo]

Awesome good tips, I didn't know about the extra lives thing, I wonder if my new T-stick pluses will improve things, I'm guessing not.

[NoOne=NBA=]

This is your chance to stock up fast on extra men so as to be able to make it to the next brain wave...ect.

[Xiaou2]

oops : )   I guess things were happening so fast that it appeared as tho every guy after 5th was an extra.   

  I did find in mame that there is no Dip switches.  However,  there is a test menu to alter the difficulty and points to earn extra guys.

  Im pretty sure the friend at the arcade used a lower difficulty level for his machine.   He gave 5 men per player as well.