YAY! TODAY SUCKED!!!

[mahuti]

My friend tom is a big anti-drug message. When he was about 22, he smoked pot so much that he burned a hole in his lung.

Ouch. no kiddin.

[paigeoliver]

It has nothing to do with free will (btw, I am not Catholic, and I refused to vote for either candidate for moral reasons).

Selling pot at walgreens wouldn't solve anything. It would just be more expensive, and people would see it as even more acceptable, and thus even more people would dedicate their life to smoking it. No way it would be cheaper, it is incredibly cheap now. I was never a pot smoker, but I spent my time around the party scene, and pot is way cheap. Even part time minimum wage burger jockeys can afford to stay stoned ALL THE TIME.

As for the REST of the drugs. Sorry, your "free will" doesn't mean a darn thing to me when your breaking my car window and doing $500 worth of damage in order to steal a radio you can get $20 for, so you can spend it on crack from a guy who will later shoot a rival on the street and not care who else gets hit.

And you know what, I actually DO care if other people ruin their lives. I DO care about all my miserable, stoned, cracked out neighbors. And I really can't come up with any solution OTHER than to make using, owning, or selling drugs so terrifying that no one will be willing to do so.

The old testament of the bible is full of examples of God killing off LOTS of people to keep their wickedness from spreading and infecting others, which he did out of love, because it was the only solution, to let them live would have been worse. You might not like that idea, but it is biblical.

I'm done with this thread now.

Remember kids, just say no to drugs.

It's modern day prohibition.

If the government would sell drugs at drug stores (the *tamer* ones...i'm not talking about sniffing battery acid up your nose crystal meth), wouldn't that save a LOT of money and lives by having less *crime* on the street?  In other words, you wouldn't have to buy it from some kid at school.  You could get it at Walgreens.  Have it be good stuff.  

I'm very into this whole new American thing where people aren't responsible for themselves.  If you wanna piss your life away on drugs, just stay in a room.  it is YOUR life.  PaigeOliver (who lives in a town where the catholic church said to vote for W or you're going to hell..but then W bombing the crap out of the guys with the nukes....err..never mind that train of thought....back over here --->) if I remember correctly attends church (of some sort...christian I think) but seems to think that people who don't beleive the same thing as him don't deserve free will.  the hypocracy is amazing.  To me anyway....

but i'm just a big fat dumb american.  

BTW, I've never smoked anything, snorted anything shot up anything or ...whatever other ways you put that crap in your system.  I don't do it, but if others want to, what right is it of mine to take that away from them?

Allroy

[shmokes]

The old testament of the bible is full of examples of God killing off LOTS of people to keep their wickedness from spreading and infecting others, which he did out of love, because it was the only solution, to let them live would have been worse. You might not like that idea, but it is biblical.

Um...so your argument is that if god can do it so can you?  Isn't that, like, a really dangerous (not to mention egotistical) thing to say.  Lightning-bolts and stuff?

Don't get me wrong Paige.  If I've got one thing going for me it's consistency.  I pretty much thing that god, especially the one from the old testament (who strangely bares almost no resemblence to the one from the new testament), is a sociopath.  It's not just wrong for you to kill indescriminately.  It's pretty messed up when god does it too.

Seriously.  You say that the only way that you can think of is make drugs so scary that nobody will do it, but you should really take a look at Holland.  They used to have a serious drug epidemic going on.  Since they switched to treating drug addiction like a public health issue rather than a criminal issue the problem has been steadily disappearing.  In spite of marijuana being legal a significantly smaller percentage of the population there uses it than in America.  They also spend much less money fighting the drug war than we do (not to mention the cost savings realized by not incarcerating half the damn population).  Now, harder drugs, like Heroin and Cocian, are still illegal, but you don't get thrown in prison if you get caught using (for selling you would).  They have, in fact, clinics where addicts can go and get clean needles and such and they work to try and break people of their habit.

The average heroin user there is now 35 and that average goes up every year.  Young people there aren't getting started on these drugs in high numbers anymore.  As the older addicts die out the average keeps going up.

Check out this page for some interesting statistics.

Link fixed - saint

[HaRuMaN]

Ditto, if religion and alcohol were banned ( or had never existed ) imagine what an amazing world we would be living in. Just think about it for a while.

Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

That song kicks as*!  APC!  wOOt!

[SOAPboy]

I'm with paigoliver on this one, I was in a 'group' that did nothing much else in high school than smoke up.  Day in and day out, pot, hash, oil.  'Nutty butty' was 3 rolling papers smeared with oil, sprinkled with has and filled with weed.  Sure, it was a blast at the time, but of that oh say 10 guys, there are 5 that I know of that are still doing it, and of them, 4 of them still live at home at 35, and the other (who was a smart guy), well his last brainstorm was to raise mice to sell to pet shops so that he could sit home and smoke and not have to work. He started down his road to financial independance with 2 mice.  Hey, 2 mice don't have that many babies!

Moral of the story: They say that dope isn't harmful?  Bull****.  The guys into it are not right in the head.  Even from my own perspective, I have trouble putting a sentence together without sounding like Ozzy Osbourne sometimes, and I used to be the most articulate person.  It DOES do damage.  I think it takes years to notice the change, but it is there.  Smarten up when you're young and leave it be. (and jeez, oregano only smells like pot when it's lit, it doesn't even look like it!!)

in the same boat.. was a major coke head in high school... almost flunked out, but i got my ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- together and graduated, went on to graduate college ect..

its really sad seeing people throwing away what could be great lives..

now, im not as hardcore about it.. i see NOTHING wrong with a little weed NOW AND THEN, but when its a habbit, theres the problem..

[SirPeale]

That song kicks as*!  APC!  wOOt!

Yeah, I like John Lennon too.

[danny_galaga]

floyd, in your 'free' society you have the choice: you can either listen to all these wowsers or you can watch 'chicago hope'. you're totally free to decide

http://dir.salon.com/news/feature/2000/01/13/drugs/index.html

[teef two]

Might as well have a say then. I've been "drug aware" since about the age of 18. Many of my friends, in fact all I can safely say, have tried the "softer" drugs. A couple of them still smoke fairly regularly. Not one is a psycho, a thief or unemployed. In fact they all have good jobs, pay taxes, have houses etc etc.

When I was a lot younger I think we all tried stuff like magic mushrooms and a bit of speed (amphetamine) but frankly I didn't like it as it was far too intense and no one else I'm friends with has touched that sort of stuff since their early twenties.

The way I see it is that if I want to occasionally have an evening of smoking and playing video games then I'm not much harming society - perhaps myself but then, I take that responsibility.

If drugs were banned tomorrow and there was no way to get more then all the former addicts would merely become alcoholics. The root cause is deeper and is a problem of society and addictive personality, not a green leaf.

All things in excess are dangerous. For example too much fat and lack of excercise leads to a nation with a real obesity problem. How many people die of heart disease each year? But do we hear a shout for banning fast food?

As a father I do not intend to forbid my son to do drugs, self-defeating effort. What I do intend to do is educate him on the effects, both good and bad, that they will have. I hope that given this information he may well choose to smoke the occasional joint but hopefully won't pop pills, snort coke or inject heroin. By this I don't mean that I'll actually encourage him to get stoned, and certainly not before he's 18. I hope that he'll know I won't condemn him if he does. Anyway, he's only 5 now so plenty of years to get the speech right!

So no, I don't hate all drugs. I just wish there could be a consistent approach towards them. Grouping weed and alcohol in the same bracket seems reasonable to me - then you can be for outright prohibition with a clear conscience.

Be much better to educate people in the danger of dependence than try to fight a war that was already lost 200 years ago.

[danny_galaga]

If drugs were banned tomorrow and there was no way to get more then all the former addicts would merely become alcoholics. The root cause is deeper and is a problem of society and addictive personality, not a green leaf.

All things in excess are dangerous. For example too much fat and lack of excercise leads to a nation with a real obesity problem. How many people die of heart disease each year? But do we hear a shout for banning fast food?

hear, hear!!

[General Zod]

The saddest thing about this whole thread is the fact that Floyd10 has once again used his "PushButton" magic to ensnare the members of this community. Chances are, he's sitting back laughing at every one of them.

Come on y'all, you wouldn't talk to this guy on the streets, why even entertain his ramblings on the board? All it really does is make us fight amongst ourselves, and where does that lead to?

Seriously guys, I wouldn't even reply to Floyd's topics. Maybe then he'll pack up toys & bag of tricks and go play elsewhere.  

[Dexter]

Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

Careful now, I got flamed on this very board for mentioning how upset my family were when John Lennon got shot! And the suggestion that it may have been an assasination had me painted as a paranoid tin-foil hat wearing agrophobic. How pathetic. John Lennon was one of the finest people of the 20th century, the world he envisioned cost him his life.

I hope anybody talking about shooting people for posession are also including the socially acceptable, government taxed+regulated drugs like alcohol, tobacco etc.

If it wasn't for drugs John Lennon wouldn't have written his finest work. Look at the LSD soaked Sargent Pepper. We have had deaths as a RESULT of government misinformation and scaremongering over drugs. Education is the way to go. Theres no use saying only one thing to kids, that drugs kill,  when chances are they see their friends/older siblings doing them and staying very much alive. Honesty and transparency in educating on the various types of drugs and their ACTUAL effects on your health is whats needed.

Dexter

[Zakk]

Go watch a Lennon concert where he hands the mic over to Yoko and tell me that drugs were doing good happy thing to his brain.  Jeez, the whole Yoko thing should be seen as the biggest argument AGAINST drugs!!

[Zakk]

in the same boat.. was a major coke head in high school... almost flunked out, but i got my <auto-censored> together and graduated, went on to graduate college ect..

its really sad seeing people throwing away what could be great lives..

now, im not as hardcore about it.. i see NOTHING wrong with a little weed NOW AND THEN, but when its a habbit, theres the problem..

We had a lead singer that got into that when we were in high school.  He HAD been student council president.  After he took to coke he: Punched all the windows out of his house and got a sliver in his veins that had to be surgically removed before it lodged in his heart.  
Cut all the street signs down in his area and buried them in his backyard
Took all the licence plates off all the cars in his area because someone had obviously called the cops on him about the street signs
Attacked a tow truck driver with a chain
Set his living room on fire
Sent the whole band to hospital after filling our beer with Tide
etc etc
Granted, he might have had a lot of this inside him from the start, but it was enough to keep me off the mighty white.

[Edgedamage]

Geez I'm glad I found a new forum that deals with video games and coin-op games. The back and forth tit for tat posts IS GETTING OLD!! Floyd be careful a record is not worth a little doobie.

[fredster]

Floyd,

Drugs will take away more than you know, even pot. They take you off your game and make you weak.  All of the old potheads from my wasted youth are still living at home with their mammas and wondering why everybody else has nice houses.

It wastes your time and your energy and your life.  It has no rewards.  It will stop you from being free and happy. It takes you off your game, and sometimes out of the game. Drinking, tokeing, etc is a waste of time.

Grow up Floyd before somebody makes you. Growing up sucks, that's for sure, but everybody has to do it.  


Shmokes,
We don't need to legalize any new intoxicant. Why should we? So more people can be more screwed up and kill more people on the roads and in their homes?  How about getting screwed up and burn down your house or spend the money on drugs and forget your kids? How about getting high and beating your wife or losing your job? Don't tell me that doesn't happen dude. I have lots of buddies from the 70's, lots.

 That's what we need, more ways to get screwed up and not face life.  Yep, great position.  It's a choice - be alive and well and free or be dependent on something to get you through the night.  great choice. Let's have yet another crutch.

Do you want your pharmacist on drugs? How about your doctor or your lawyer?  I know, how about your taxi driver.  After all, he was just sitting there and wasn't driving when he took a toke.

Great idea. NOT.

I've done my share, that's for sure. It wasted years of my life for nothing and kept me from being more and doing more when I needed to do it.  And for what?  A few minutes of euphoria I can't remember?

I wasted a good portion of the years I should have been doing something and learning something on getting the next bag 'o dope.  I look back and see nothing but lost opportunity.

I'm not religious at all. You keep going over that point in any conservative viewpoint.  I don't understand that. Most religious people are conservatives, but not all conservatives are religous people.

You are for gun control, but for people having drugs.  Great postion, makes great sense.  If everybody doesn't have a gun they can get high right?

[Dartful Dodger]

Don't listen to them Floyd.  Do what makes you happy, if people quit doing drugs we'd have only illegal imgrants working the cash registers at fast food places.

When I tell a pot head, no cheese, I am more likely to get my Big Mac without cheese.

Of course I don't want you actually preparing my food. Even though I say no cheese, I'd like to think that implies no spit or urine either.

[locash]

I think G.K Chesterton said it best:

"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog."

[Jabba]

I can't believe this thread has received all the attention it has...
Please, let it die!
We're getting back to the negative/political stuff from a few weeks ago!
Isn't this about BYOAC???

[Floyd10]

sorry that I havent posted in a while... I am suspended, its official. My moms getting me a drug test, to see if Im not doing anything harder (BTW, i have to pay for it...).  Fortunately I haven't smoked in a month, and its going to come up negative. I have just read both arguments, and i still stand firmly where I was. I do believe that it is modern prohibiton. the exact same thing happened in the 20s(I believe). people had the same exact views. and crime was much worse. people cant seem to see the forest for the trees. There was a comedian that has a unique view (and no, It doesnt encourage me to do drugs.)

"People don't think that drugs have done any good for people. I disagree, and if you dont think that drugs have done anything good for people, then do me a favor. go home right now and take all your cds, and tapes, and records and burn them. because every good song, every song that has affected your life... reeeeeeeeeaslly f***ing high on drugs."

(listen to Tool's third eye)

David cross also once said:
"But, why is pot illegal? If I wanna go home after a hard day of work, and get stoned, watch tv and eat a twinkie, whats the harm in that? I tell ya, when Im in prison, getting raped by a 400 lb man, thats when Im really gonna need a joint.Granted, I dont think you should get stoned whenever you like. I don't wanna be on the operating table with my doctor getting stoned.."

[fredster]

Floyd,

A month isn't long enough anymore Floyd, It's gotta be at least 60 days.

Comedians are just that, comedy.

My point is that doing that wastes you more than you know. Instead of smoking "after a hard day" you could do something else, like making music or painting the living room, or building a mame machine to take your mind off it.

Instead, you sit there and get high.  You wake up groggy, you go to work groggy, and you just don't feel like doing anything.  That's where it takes you off your game.  It makes you "have a hard day".  It takes several days to get it out of your system.

You are not old enough to know what it does yet. I was in your shoes in '79.  I said the same thing, exactly.  I didn't realize what I could have been doing or what I could have accomplished because I was stoned. I didn't care.

And what happened?  I had two friends that I made fun of for not toking. Both worked after school and built businesses.  They are doing pretty well now. They spent their time on something constructive, not destructive.

It wastes your time.  It wastes the time of people trying to help you.

I can see where you think it's a modern prohabition, but there is a reason for it. There is nothing good about it. Nothing. The money you spend on it goes to people who do crime.  It supports more crime.  It brings people who do crime around you.  It involves you and surrounds you in crime.  It makes you into a liar and a slacker.  It gets worse the older you get.  

You become a target, a patsy.  You become less that what you can be.

Not all music is created from drug induced hallucinations. Ted Nugent is a prime example of that.

Plus you can't compare "worse crimes" and this. Comparing two bad things is not a valid argument.  It is not the same thing.

You can argue it hurts nobody but yourself, it's victimless, but it's not.  You have risked your future and probably upset your parents to no end. You gave money to some body that eventually leads to somebody who will kill people in order to bring you your supply.  There are real victims and consequences.

Stay straight for awhile and do something constructive.  Make that first album, perfect your rift.  Organize that band.  Figure out something to build.  

[Grasshopper]

There is nothing good about it. Nothing. The money you spend on it goes to people who do crime.  It supports more crime.  It brings people who do crime around you.  It involves you and surrounds you in crime.  It makes you into a liar and a slacker.
................................

You gave money to some body that eventually leads to somebody who will kill people in order to bring you your supply.  There are real victims and consequences.

Hmm, sounds like a good argument for legalising drugs to me.

If drugs were legalised (but tightly controlled) then you would remove the incentive for criminals to get involved in supplying them.

In any case the nightmare scenario you present us with (doctors high on drugs etc) doesn't tend to happen in countries that have a more liberal approach to drugs such as Holland.

[shmokes]

Shmokes,
We don't need to legalize any new intoxicant...So more people can be more screwed up and kill more people on the roads and in their homes?  How about getting screwed up and burn down your house or spend the money on drugs and forget your kids? How about getting high and beating your wife or losing your job? Don't tell me that doesn't happen dude. I have lots of buddies from the 70's, lots.

 That's what we need, more ways to get screwed up and not face life.  Yep, great position.  It's a choice - be alive and well and free or be dependent on something to get you through the night.  great choice. Let's have yet another crutch.

Do you want your pharmacist on drugs? How about your doctor or your lawyer?  I know, how about your taxi driver.  After all, he was just sitting there and wasn't driving when he took a toke.

Great idea. NOT.

Fredster,  

I backed my assertions up with statistics.  It's comical that you respond by saying how absurd my position is without even attempting to address what I actually said or discredit my statistics or suggest how I am misreading them.  Go back up and click on the link, then come back here and level your arguments.  The weight of the evidence is on my side.  I don't want to legalize marijuana so that MORE people will use it.  I want to legalize marijuana because the drug war is doing more harm than the drug.  There is also significant evidence that legalizing marijuana would dramatically decrease the use of harder drugs, and quite likely the use even of marijuana itself.  In addition to being counter-productive the drug war also costs billions and billions of tax-payer money.

Once again, go back up and click on the link.  

You are for gun control, but for people having drugs.  Great postion, makes great sense.  If everybody doesn't have a gun they can get high right?

 

Speaking of making sense.....    What in the name of god are you getting at here?
 
And on the religion thing...I never suggested that religious people are against drugs while non-religious people are for them.  I used religion as an example because I know that Paige is extremely religious, whereas I think that religion is, on the whole, harmful to society.  I used it to illustrate how he might not like his policy so much if someone else was in power.  Maybe someone who thinks that religion isn't such a good thing.  It could have been people who build their own arcade controls too, I guess, only then I'd have to have myself shot too.

I don't see this as a republican v. democrat thing, or a religion v. athesim.  Republicans and Christians don't have any monopoly over hating drugs.  

[fredster]

Smokes, I'll keep it simple.

Then why have more ways to destroy yourself legally?

I've been there.  It's not worth it. Quote any made up statistics pot head professors you want, we don't need any more drugs.  

[Floyd10]

There is nothing good about it. Nothing. The money you spend on it goes to people who do crime.  It supports more crime.  It brings people who do crime around you.  It involves you and surrounds you in crime.  It makes you into a liar and a slacker.
................................

You gave money to some body that eventually leads to somebody who will kill people in order to bring you your supply.  There are real victims and consequences.

Hmm, sounds like a good argument for legalising drugs to me.

If drugs were legalised (but tightly controlled) then you would remove the incentive for criminals to get involved in supplying them.

In any case the nightmare scenario you present us with (doctors high on drugs etc) doesn't tend to happen in countries that have a more liberal approach to drugs such as Holland.

Im with you. There wouldnt be money going to terrorists if it was legalized. Just like how the mob was getting money off of alcohol during prohibition. The drug war hurts more people than it saves.

and btw, the comedians are satirists. if you dont know what that is, then Im shoveling in a snow storm.

[locash]

...why have more ways to destroy yourself legally?

Because without the ability to live our lives as we choose we are not truly free.  

[fredster]

Ok, here's more:

However, what CATO refuses to publicly acknowledge are the devastating
results of legalization-decriminalization policy, as evidenced in the
Netherlands, where such a policy has been in place since the early
1980's. The president of the Dutch National Committee on Drug Prevention,
K.F. Gunning, M.D., reports that crime and drug use have skyrocketed
since the implementation of legalization in the Netherlands. According to
the Dutch Government, their legalization-decriminalization has resulted
in: A 250-percent increase in drug use since 1993; a doubling of
marijuana  use by students since 1988; armed robberies up by 70
percent; shootings up by 40 percent; car thefts up by 60 percent.

The number of registered addicts in the Netherlands has risen 22 percent
in the past 5 years, and there were 25,000 new addicts in 1993 alone. In
addition, the number of organized crime groups in the Netherlands has
increased from 3 in 1988 to 93 in 1993. For good reason, the American
public has zero tolerance for legalization schemes.

[DrewKaree]

There was a comedian that has a unique view (and no, It doesnt encourage me to do drugs.)

"People don't think that drugs have done any good for people. I disagree, and if you dont think that drugs have done anything good for people, then do me a favor. go home right now and take all your cds, and tapes, and records and burn them. because every good song, every song that has affected your life... reeeeeeeeeaslly f***ing high on drugs."

That same guy also said Keith Richards DID all the drugs!

Wake up and smell the maple nut crunch  

[Floyd10]

Actually it wasnt dennis leary. I dont know his name, I heard it on tools third eye song.

[Mameotron]

Actually it wasnt dennis leary. I dont know his name, I heard it on tools third eye song.

It was Sam Kinison.

[shmokes]

Ok, here's more:

However, what CATO refuses to publicly acknowledge are the devastating
results of legalization-decriminalization policy, as evidenced in the
Netherlands, where such a policy has been in place since the early
1980's. The president of the Dutch National Committee on Drug Prevention,
K.F. Gunning, M.D., reports that crime and drug use have skyrocketed
since the implementation of legalization in the Netherlands. According to
the Dutch Government, their legalization-decriminalization has resulted
in: A 250-percent increase in drug use since 1993; a doubling of
marijuana  use by students since 1988; armed robberies up by 70
percent; shootings up by 40 percent; car thefts up by 60 percent.

The number of registered addicts in the Netherlands has risen 22 percent
in the past 5 years, and there were 25,000 new addicts in 1993 alone. In
addition, the number of organized crime groups in the Netherlands has
increased from 3 in 1988 to 93 in 1993. For good reason, the American
public has zero tolerance for legalization schemes.

Fredster, Fredster, Fredster,

You seem so aggravated.  I'm not sure who the "made up statistics pot head professors" are that you are referring to, but here are some of the sources of the information in that link:

1- University of Amsterdam, Centre for Drug Research
2- US Department of Health and Human Services
3- European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction
4- London, England: Research, Development and Statistics Directorate of the Home Office
5- Netherlands: Ministry of Justice
6- Netherlands Institute of Mental Health and Addiction
7- The Hague: Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sport

All of those sources are listed prominently on the website under each piece of information, so I'm not entirely sure what your grounds are for claiming that some pot-head professor pulled them out of thin air.

It would be nice if you returned the favor by providing the sources for your claims so I can check out the credility of your assertions.  I'm not married to the idea of legalizing marijuana, you know.  If presented with compelling evidence that legalizing marijuana would be bad for our society I'll just change my position on it.  It's not like I'm going to be up nights thinking, "Oh god, what have I done?  All this time I was misguided on the virtue of illicit drug decriminalization."

But if you truly want to reduce the drug problem in America, and some other countries policy appears to be far more effective than our own, you shouldn't just dismiss it because it doesn't make intuitive sense to you at face value.  You shouldn't say, "I'd rather have a growing drug problem while Holland has a dramatically shrinking one than even consider the possibility that maybe they might have the superior approach to the problem."  Don't let nationalism get in the way of being the best.  If another country starts beating us we should plaigerize their idea.  Any business worth its salt would do the same.

[paigeoliver]

"People don't think that drugs have done any good for people. I disagree, and if you dont think that drugs have done anything good for people, then do me a favor. go home right now and take all your cds, and tapes, and records and burn them. because every good song, every song that has affected your life... reeeeeeeeeaslly f***ing high on drugs."

Wow, it is a literal fountain of stupidity.

If you do believe that, then do ME a favor and go research musicians, the music industry, and drugs in the music industry and see how many promising artists, popular bands, and musicians in general have ripped their lives apart with drugs. For every Willie Nelson there are 30 drummers addicted to coke who live just on the edge of ripping their entire band apart.


I used to live with a couple musicians, and knew plenty of other ones, and the MAIN reason for kicking people out of bands was drugs.

[shmokes]

I could be wrong Paige, but i think that there was a little bit of tongue-in-cheek going on in that argument.

Simply ignoring my serious and well-grounded arguments doesn't make them go away, though.  We do have some common ground, ya know.  Both of us see a very serious societal problem in drug use.  As I mentioned above, the only drug I do is legal and readily available at the local liquor store.  Access to marijuana is not a problem for me.  I just don't care for it.  I won't benefit directly from it being made legal.  I also agree with you that it is physically harmful (as is sugar) and has a tendency to become a psychological crutch for many people and commonly affects their productivity and ambition negatively.

Don't make the mistake of digging your heels in based on a "us v. them" mentality.  There's more than one way to skin a cat.  I think I've presented fairly compelling evidence that my suggestions would work better than what we are doing.  Your suggestions probably would too, but they would also introduce another element into society that would be clearly worse than the problem it solved.  In the end, though, we have the sameish goal in mind.

[DarkKobold]

I've done my share, that's for sure. It wasted years of my life for nothing and kept me from being more and doing more when I needed to do it.  And for what?  A few minutes of euphoria I can't remember?

Wow, if this doesn't sum up the college experience.

Drinking, everyone does it. Same deal. Everyone obsesses over getting drunk. Too many of my friends claim a "bad" weekend if they don't get sloshed both nights. It started to really hit home recently (personal problems). I've stopped for the time being. I can't say that I've felt better in months.

[Dexter]

Isn't this about BYOAC???

This part of the forum is 'everything else'

By the way, that comedian quoted was Bill Hicks, from his "Revelations" show IIRC.

Dexter

[danny_galaga]

i think what a lot of people aren't getting, but shmokes, teef two, myself and others realise is that governments are concentrating too much on the problems people have with substance abuse (and BTW, alcohol and cigarettes by FAR kill more people than all the others put together) and not focusing enough on why people go off the rails.
  i don't smoke, hardly ever drink and don't take drugs. in fact, i nag my stoner friends to try and get them past their teen years (and we're in our thirties now!). but i would never wish them to prison for what they do. many people can drink or smoke dope in moderation all  their lives and never have a problem. many others are veritable whores for that next drink or smoke or hit. why the difference?
  a lot of it has to do with family life. you guys that have said you used to do drugs but now don't and are warning floyd of the dangers. you are proof that drugs don't just turn you into useless stoners for life. you were rebelling, maybe there was some other problems that you were trying to mask. you got over it. now you don't do drugs. that's what happens to most people.
 SOME problems are too profound to get over though. i had a girlfriend who was raped by her father until she was about 13. finally she couldn't take it anymore and ran off with a boyfriend. she ended up a heroin addict and was selling it on the streets by the time she was 16. i think there's a pretty obvious reason there why she took drugs, don't you? wouldn't matter how many 'mister bigs' you busted, or how many junkies you threw in prison or shot against a wall, it wouldn't have stopped her father raping her.
 luckily she was upper middle-class and her mother came looking for her and sent her to a special school. she was on and off junk well into her thirties though. working at the london stock exchange didn't help matters as they are a bunch of coke-heads! when i met her she'd been off everything for maybe 3 years. unbelievably she even gave up smoking a year or so ago!! now that's tough work...
  you are always going to have people that need help that isn't forthcoming. self-medicating with legal OR illegal drugs isn't the answer. But nor is ignoring that and declaring a 'war on drugs'.

BTW, she didn't smoke dope until in her twenties. found she didn't like it. so much for that simplistic idea of 'feeder' drugs or whatever it is it's termed- the idea that soft drugs inevitably leads to hard drugs.

oh, and i think jabba is right- it was bill hicks.

[fredster]

Shmokes,

I got my info from a government source also:
http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/demand/speakout/09so.htm

I don't think that people who do drugs should go to jail either.  I don't think people should get into drugs at all. It didn't help anybody I ever knew.  It's taking my 19 year old nephew with Floyd's attitude now.  He seems to think that it's pretty cool and has dropped out of college.  He was an A student and captain of his football team before he found dope.  Now he's just a stoner.

I'm for stopping supply. I'm for busting people for selling it, hard. I'm not in favor of busting people like Floyd.  It doesn't make sense to do that unless they keep on and become part of the problem by selling.

There is nothing free about being able to do drugs. Nothing. There is no upside. Where is the upside boys? Where?

Danny, you can't make this relative to other problems. Comparing one problem to an unrelated problem.  It's a sad story you write about this 16 year old. I've seen that too.  You didn't mention if the father was an addict. Drugs could have been the cause for a lot of this over and over. Drugs or drinking. Intoxicants in general.

Another good reason to keep new intoxicants out of the public domain.  We can't control what we have that's already legal.

The only thing I hear from the other side in this issue is - well if you want to screw up your own life, go right ahead. Life sucks then you die.  Be free to kill yourself.  What does it matter?

Come on. It does matter. It matters to people around you who care for you.  We have to something.  Doing nothing is not an option.  There is no future or upside to it.

[locash]

The only thing I hear from the other side in this issue is - well if you want to screw up your own life, go right ahead. Life sucks then you die.  Be free to kill yourself.  What does it matter?

If this is what you heard, you haven't been listening.  No one said life sucks or it doesn't matter.  And I would discourage anyone from screwing up their lives or killing themselves.  However, it is not the job of government to tell people they can't do these things if they choose.  Government should not be some sort of surrogate parent telling people how to live their lives.

[fredster]

If this is what you heard, you haven't been listening.

I always have been know for listening pretty well.

I now understand why I should be like John Lennon.  I'm sure that he started out doing LSD.  They wrote a classic album about yellow submarines.  John Lennon was such a socially adjusted guy.  Just like Jannis Joplin, she was a real winner and real happy.  Jimmi Hendrix, and Kurt Kobane, he made grunge mainstream, and what a fun guy. Great roll models all!  I can't wait to get the posters.

I thnk I heard this:

The drug war hurts more people than it saves.

 - So that means, give up on it. Stop fighting drugs. Don't stop drugs, make no effort. After all it comes down to you and me.  Why spend the effort to stop all that nasty business?  After all, it's fruitless.  We can never ever win.  So why even try?

And this:

Because without the ability to live our lives as we choose we are not truly free.  

 So it's a good idea to add yet another way to fail to an already difficult life.  Great. We can all decide to just destroy ourselves with even more stuff!  What can we choose???

How many people die of heart disease each year? But do we hear a shout for banning fast food?

 That means since we are screwing up here, we can just go ahead and screw this up too!  Wow! that's a great idea.

I hear:

Theres no use saying only one thing to kids, that drugs kill,  when chances are they see their friends/older siblings doing them and staying very much alive.

So everybody does it and LOOK how successful they are! They are alive after that! Wow, so it can't be bad.

I hear that we should just allow a new intoxicant to be allowed and social acceptable.  It's okay. People, or "most people" get over it. You should be able to screw yourself up, that's what I get from most of this.

Now using the logic I've seen here, I have changed on more than one issue.

We can now say that suicide is an appropriate response to life's troubles.  Hey, it's okay. It only hurts one person.  It's your only choice to be truly free.  Let's make it socially acceptable to do that.  After all, we shouldn't try to prevent that as it impinges on one's freedom!!!

Ok! I understand.

[locash]

Now using the logic I've seen here...

Is this an invitation to question your sight as well?

But seriously, your logic is flawed.  You are equating legalizing pot with advocating it and no one is doing this.  Just because something is legal doesn't mean you are encouraged to do it.  After all drinking and smoking are legal and yet not everyone participates.  Why would pot be any different.

And why are you bringing up suicide?  This has nothing to do with the topic at hand.  

[patrickl]

Ok, here's more:

However, what CATO refuses to publicly acknowledge are the devastating
results of legalization-decriminalization policy, as evidenced in the
Netherlands, where such a policy has been in place since the early
1980's. The president of the Dutch National Committee on Drug Prevention,
K.F. Gunning, M.D., reports that crime and drug use have skyrocketed
since the implementation of legalization in the Netherlands. According to
the Dutch Government, their legalization-decriminalization has resulted
in: A 250-percent increase in drug use since 1993; a doubling of
marijuana  use by students since 1988; armed robberies up by 70
percent; shootings up by 40 percent; car thefts up by 60 percent.

The number of registered addicts in the Netherlands has risen 22 percent
in the past 5 years, and there were 25,000 new addicts in 1993 alone. In
addition, the number of organized crime groups in the Netherlands has
increased from 3 in 1988 to 93 in 1993. For good reason, the American
public has zero tolerance for legalization schemes.

I guess it's just how you read the figures. You can do it like your source does (and claim that things are running out of control in the Netherlands) or you can compare the figures for the Netherlands to the figures of our neighbours (or to the US). I'm afraid your source is out to prove a case for the hard line approach and only shows the data that can prove that claim. It grossly exaggerates things that are not an issue and ignores the points that are. The "report" fails to put things in perspective.

For instance, the biggest power of our soft drugs legalization is in preventing people from coming in contact with hard drugs. So when your source claims the Dutch are becoming hugely addicted to heroin (tripled or maybe even quadrupled since 1976) that sure doesn't sound good. But if you look at the stats and see that the Netherlands is one of the European countries with the lowest number of opiate addicts (2.6 in 1000 while it's up to 10 per 1000 in countries like Italy and the UK) then I'd say that apparently we are still doing it better than the other countries.

I also don't see the relation to other forms of crimes. What could be the relation between armed robberies and drugs use? There are more dutch producers of drugs yes, but these people don't steal cars, rob banks or whatever.

The truth is that the Netherlands overall has far less drugs related problems than the US even though you can of course find some individual figures that will prove otherwise. The figures I have seen are far less shocking tahan your source makes it look (2003 ANNUAL REPORT ON THE DRUG SITUATION ).

For what it's worth, I used soft drugs quite often and even though I build up a reasonably succesful business for myself. It's not the soft drugs that stop people from being succesful, it's the fact that they were losers to begin with that makes them losers.

Indeed "losers" tend to resort to alcohol and/or drugs abuse, but that's does not mean it's always true the other way around. Claiming that soft drugs "break" peoples lives is just as silly as claiming that beer would do that.

Personally, I dislike drunk people a lot more than drugged people. Drunks tend to get agressive while "druggers" go mellow. Actually, it's my experience that women get really horny when they smoke some stuff  

Perhaps in an ideal world people wouldn't drink alcohol or do drugs, but then I don't think I'd like to live in that ideal world.