Author Topic: ROTARY T-STIK PLUS (PLUS) - Willy Wonka Edition (Read 43283 times)

mr.Curmudgeon · « **on:** June 03, 2004, 01:01:55 am »

We'll...they said it couldn't be done. Yet, here it is.

The T-Stik Plus (Plus) - Willy Wonka Edition

Note: Using a rubber belt & plastic gear set that was initially intended for use in an RC car and a slightly modified mouse, I've created a mechanical rotary modification for the T-Stik Plus. Thus, making the mounted joystick a triple-threat, ie: 4-way & 8-way switchable, with rotary functions added on (for my favorite games, such as Ikari Warriors and Heavy Barrel). All the modifications to the joystick are reversible; no damage is done if the apparatus needs to be removed. The plastic gear is simply threaded onto the bottom of the joystick shafts pre-existing threads, once the plastic gear is tapped with the correct thread ratio. No changes to the joystick needed!

This solution came about because I wanted one joystick per player on the CP to do 4/8-way games and I prefer mechanically restricted joystick movement (without the need for restrictor plates), which makes the T-stik the only viable choice for me. However, I also enjoy rotary games, but did not want to add more joystick to the CP design, nor did I care to have a modular CP. I prefer simple, elegant, all-in-one solutions, without additional hassles; making it something even my guest players can use and understand.

Videos:

Joystick movement w/ rotary mod:	Switching from 4-way to 8-way:

Assembled Joystick Apparatus:

Wonka Mod T-Stick Disassembled:

Additional Parts Needed:

Process:

Underneath CP:

Belt Mechanics:

Mouse Modifications:

Mounting:

dirt · « **Reply #1 on:** June 03, 2004, 01:16:07 am »

very well done!!!!! i beleive that gets you the wonka award of the week

dirt

Zathras · « **Reply #2 on:** June 03, 2004, 02:16:16 am »

Great idea and very well executed!

(Golf clap)

Generic Eric · « **Reply #3 on:** June 03, 2004, 02:59:01 am »

darktemp · « **Reply #4 on:** June 03, 2004, 03:53:46 am »

Pimp.

menace · « **Reply #5 on:** June 03, 2004, 06:40:02 am »

Sweet! Way to think outside the cabinet! Question though--it looks like in one of the directions you might get a lot of slack i.e shaft toward the mouse--is that a problem or does the belt continue to ride the gears? I guess you could spring mount the mouse so that it maintains tension on the belt regardless of where it was positioned.

Minwah · « **Reply #6 on:** June 03, 2004, 07:55:19 am »

That's pretty damn cool, and to think I said it couldn't be done!

You could further the idea on a 2 player panel by hooking up the 2nd mouse axis optics in some kind of custom housing for the Player 2 stick.

I decided I wouldn't bother with rotary sticks for the sake of a handful of games - might have to change my mind now...

Witchboard · « **Reply #7 on:** June 03, 2004, 08:16:58 am »

Props. Very well executed.

mr.Curmudgeon · « **Reply #8 on:** June 03, 2004, 09:42:39 am »

Quote from: menace on June 03, 2004, 06:40:02 am

Question though--it looks like in one of the directions you might get a lot of slack i.e shaft toward the mouse--is that a problem or does the belt continue to ride the gears? I guess you could spring mount the mouse so that it maintains tension on the belt regardless of where it was positioned.

I went with the belt (rather than a simple rubber band) because of that very issue. The teeth keep riding the gear, just as you've suggested. The T-Stik doesn't really have that much travel, so the belt stays pretty taut. The thin mouting bracket allows for enough "spring-like" action that there is never really enough slack to cause problems. In addition, you don't even notice the additional assembly (ie: joystick doesn't strain in any direction).

-Thanks everybody, for the compliments so far!

Generic Eric · « **Reply #9 on:** June 03, 2004, 09:51:11 am »

ack!

How come you couldn't have come up with this before I bought my rotary sticks from ebay?

good show!

2600 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 03, 2004, 09:53:00 am »

I was wondering if you thought it would be easier to go optical. Instead of the belt system, put an encoder wheel on the bottom like a spinner.

Any thoughts?

mr.Curmudgeon · « **Reply #11 on:** June 03, 2004, 09:56:38 am »

Quote from: Minwah on June 03, 2004, 07:55:19 am

That's pretty damn cool, and to think I said it couldn't be done!

Hehe...thanks!

Quote

You could further the idea on a 2 player panel by hooking up the 2nd mouse axis optics in some kind of custom housing for the Player 2 stick.

I do plan on having two of these on the CP, so I'll be sure post more info/photos once the second joy is modded. My only question, so far, is in a game like Ikari, how do you assign the X-axis to P1 and the Y-axis to P2? I've had two mice hooked up at once in MAME and they both control P1 completely.

Quote

I decided I wouldn't bother with rotary sticks for the sake of a handful of games - might have to change my mind now...

Awesome! Let me know if it works out.

mr.Curmudgeon · « **Reply #12 on:** June 03, 2004, 10:54:40 am »

Quote from: 2600 on June 03, 2004, 09:53:00 am

I was wondering if you thought it would be easier to go optical. Instead of the belt system, put an encoder wheel on the bottom like a spinner.

Any thoughts?

Originally I tried this, but it then becomes either expensive or difficult to create a mechanism that keeps the encoder board stationary, while allowing the joystick shaft to pan and tilt and spin. Even when I came up with something that might work (joy shaft through a rollerblade bearing attached to a encoder board on a spring), it didn't allow for the joystick raising when you engage in 4-to-8-way switching. Plus, I couldn't figure out a way to add it without altering the joystick (ie: drilling into it, or extending the shaft).

The belt allows enough room to manuver while avoiding all of those issues. Plus it's super easy to install. The hardest part was making sure the gear remained straight while it was threaded onto the joystick.

Added Note: Of course, someone else may come up with a completely different and totally viable optical solution

. So you never know. Keep in mind that the T-Stik is different than all other joys on the market, so the real challenge was "geared" (pun-intended) towards that specific beauty.

Witchboard · « **Reply #13 on:** June 03, 2004, 10:55:12 am »

Quote from: 2600 on June 03, 2004, 09:53:00 am

I was wondering if you thought it would be easier to go optical. Instead of the belt system, put an encoder wheel on the bottom like a spinner.

Any thoughts?

That's the first thing I thought of, but after a little brainstorming I don't think it would work. When you pulled the stick up to change from 4/8 way it moves the shaft up so far. Your optics would have to move with the wheel, not to mention moving the stick side to side and such. You'd have to mount the optics on the same rod as the wheel. This would allow it to stay in the correct position, but when you twisted the stick, the optics would spin with the wheel. That's all I could think of so far.

Ed ONeill · « **Reply #14 on:** June 03, 2004, 01:15:46 pm »

mr.Curmudgeon ,

Awesome ! Now when you gonna make me one...LOL

Guys this is pretty unbeleiveable considering we just built the control panel within the last three weeks.

Signed
Ed

Minwah · « **Reply #15 on:** June 03, 2004, 01:23:18 pm »

Quote from: mr.Curmudgeon on June 03, 2004, 09:56:38 am

I'm do plan on having two of these on the CP, so I'll be sure post more info/photos once the second joy is modded. My only question, so far, is in a game like Ikari, how do you assign the X-axis to P1 and the Y-axis to P2? I've had two mice hooked up at once in MAME and they both control P1 completely.

You need to use MAME Analog+ I believe - it can handle the 2 axis as 2 separate devices so each player can have one

dmsuchy · « **Reply #16 on:** June 03, 2004, 01:46:22 pm »

Awesome job! Any chance Andy or someone else could mass produce these? Ikari warriors in my future?

Edit- for crappy spellin

Apollo · « **Reply #17 on:** June 03, 2004, 08:38:49 pm »

[size=10]Bling bling[/size]

That rocks

rampy · « **Reply #18 on:** June 03, 2004, 10:05:05 pm »

wow... just wow... very enterprising...

I love it when something "can't" be done and someone finds a way...

from rotating control panels right down to this hack...

gj!

rampy

JoyMonkey · « **Reply #19 on:** June 04, 2004, 08:00:19 am »

once again, WOW!

I think we'll have to drink to this miraculous invention tomorrow at FunSpot.
Well done!

Rom · « **Reply #20 on:** June 04, 2004, 05:25:16 pm »

I love those rotary games and you've certainly solved a dilemma I had as I wanted to be able to play those too without resorting to an extra joystick.

Great job.

Acids · « **Reply #21 on:** June 05, 2004, 06:52:20 am »

Quote from: mr.Curmudgeon on June 03, 2004, 01:01:55 am

I am extremely proud of it, so don't laugh

Im Not Laughing, Im amazed..

BLOODY WELL DONE...!!!
Now i have a cabinet issue which needs some "out of the box thinking" can you help

mr.Curmudgeon · « **Reply #22 on:** June 06, 2004, 05:35:50 pm »

Thank you!

Also, beware Acids, there's no guarantee on the quality of my help.

Nannuu · « **Reply #23 on:** June 07, 2004, 12:50:22 pm »

That's awesome! Can you play Tempest or Arkanoid with it? How easy does the T-stick rotate?

Aceldamor · « **Reply #24 on:** June 07, 2004, 06:07:48 pm »

How's the rotation? Nice and smooth?

mr.Curmudgeon · « **Reply #25 on:** June 07, 2004, 10:19:42 pm »

To answer both the above, the rotation is extremely smooth. It rotates easily, since I didn't over-tighten the pulley. I just played Ikari and Heavy Barrel this weekend at the arcade w/ the rounded yellow joystick (which I think are not the original SNK rotaries, though) for a comparison, and the only difference I found was the arcade joys clicked when you turned them. I'm working on a few ideas to easily add this function though. The game play seemed exactly the same.

When I first built the Wonka hack I thought spinning the ball-top was a little awkward, but compared to the barrel joy at the arcade, I found it was easier to use in the end. I scored higher and played longer (per life) on both games using the Wonka hack.

In Mame32, I've had to adjust the sensitivity settings to find a comfortable level of control ('Tab', 'Analog Controls' then 'Dial Sensitivity', set to 80% or so). I think you have to do this with any rotary-like control though. Not sure.

As for Arkanoid/Tempest, since this hack is basically a spinner in disguise, YES you could use a Wonka enabled T-Stik as a spinner (4-in-1 solution??). I played them both just fine with it, the only potential issue is that you have to avoid moving the joystick left/right/up or down while you spin, since that activates the controls as well. It's not that hard to avoid though, since the T-Stik requires a good amount of pressure in any direction to engage the microswitch.

Oh, it doesn't "freespin" though, but I could never figure out why people need their spinner to spin freely for two mintues straight anyhow?!

I happen to have a "Nasty" spinner, but it isn't hooked up right now. I'll try to get it going over the next few days, so I can directly compare the Wonka Hack with a spinner.

Kremmit · « **Reply #26 on:** June 08, 2004, 01:13:26 am »

Quote

I just played Ikari and Heavy Barrel this weekend at the arcade w/ the rounded yellow joystick (which I think are not the original SNK rotaries, though)

Correct. The rounded yellow-tops are Data East rotaries. The SNK models had Octagon shaped tops. The Data East models use a Wico Leafswitch base, while the SNK ones are made by Semitsu and use microswitches.

Minwah · « **Reply #27 on:** June 08, 2004, 04:46:03 am »

Quote from: mr.Curmudgeon on June 07, 2004, 10:19:42 pm

I just played Ikari and Heavy Barrel this weekend at the arcade w/ the rounded yellow joystick (which I think are not the original SNK rotaries, though) for a comparison, and the only difference I found was the arcade joys clicked when you turned them. I'm working on a few ideas to easily add this function though. The game play seemed exactly the same.

I wouldn't do anything about the clicking. Some games it would be nice for (ie ones that used mechanical rotaries like Ikari), but I think it might not be too great for some other which originally used optical rotaries (like Caliber 50).

mr.Curmudgeon · « **Reply #28 on:** June 08, 2004, 09:55:24 am »

I'm only thinking about adding the clicking as an option, since some people my want it. Plus, it's fun developing stuff. Personally, playing with the hack over the last few days, I've become accustom to not having it and it's not really missed.

hyiu · « **Reply #29 on:** June 08, 2004, 02:55:05 pm »

sorry to jump in like this... but your mod to the joystick is VERY INSPIRING !!!!.... it kept me thinking.... and thinking...

and I come up with the following idea in my mind....
(that is basically a slight variation of your idea....)
its kind of like a clicking version of your mod....
and it only involves 2 microswitches....

the only thing is the gear..... I will need a 12 groove metal gear.... anyone knows where I can search for those ??...
(I know... probably places that do models cars and stuffs... but I was never into model cars and stuff.... so, donno any places like that....)

also... does that looked like a workable solution ??

hyiu · « **Reply #30 on:** June 08, 2004, 03:03:14 pm »

and in case the pic doesn't make sense...

the 12 groove metal gear will be attached to the end of the stick.... and when you rotate the stick.... the gear (hard plastic or metal is preferred for abuse) will turn with the shaft...

this will "click" on the 2 coin door style microswitch...
turning 1 direction will turn only 1 ms.... reverse the turn and it'll click the other ms....

the spring will need to be there to make sure the ms metal will be kept in the "initial position"... ready to be clicked....

and if the gear groove thingy is deep enough... you should still be able to click the ms even when moving....

well..... for now... I donno how well it will manage if you spin the stick REALLY QUICKLY.... will the gear and the MS catch up.... or... in the long run.... (assuming the gear is metal, it should be ok...) but the coin door ms... that lever piece of metal... will it goes bad....

from my initial thinking... the only thing about this mod is "WHERE OR HOW TO GET THIS PARTICULAR 12 GROOVE GEAR ??" if I can get one, I think its worth a try....

mr.Curmudgeon · « **Reply #31 on:** June 11, 2004, 04:34:51 pm »

Quote from: hyiu on June 08, 2004, 03:03:14 pm

... the only thing about this mod is "WHERE OR HOW TO GET THIS PARTICULAR 12 GROOVE GEAR ??"

Isn't that always the case!

I like the idea, but I think there may be a simpler way of adding the clicking feature. I've got something in mind, I'll try to post about it soon. The only issue I can see with the microswitch idea is, how well will the gear make contact w/ the MS when the joystick is tilted? That was the big issue when I first approached this hack.

Also, Why the 12-grooves? Will that allow the proper number of 'clicks' between each degree of firing in Ikari and such? What are the actual degrees, btw, in the characters rotation and how many click between each?

EDIT: Content

Kremmit · « **Reply #32 on:** June 13, 2004, 01:26:21 am »

Quote

What are the actual degrees, btw, in the characters rotation and how many click between each?

360 degrees in a circle
12 positions
360 divided by 12 = 30 degrees per click

looking at that picture... won't the "gear" both switches no matter which way you rotate? It looks like whichever way you go, one will be hit in the "right" direction, and the other will be hit in the "wrong" direction.. won't this cause a problem? I'm assuming you're using one switch to register clockwise turns, and the other for counter-clockwise. Xybots used a stick that did that; but it didn't rotate all the way around, just twisted about 1/8 turn in either direction, enough to trip either the clockwise or the counter-clockwise switch. That would be pretty easy to build- see bottom image (original retained for comparison)

Lilwolf · « **Reply #33 on:** June 14, 2004, 04:13:36 pm »

neat idea...

got a question... do you have any problems rotating and moving at the same time?

How about doing a super upper cut or any weird things like that.... could this cause the belt to fall off?

GREAT JOB!

mr.Curmudgeon · « **Reply #34 on:** June 14, 2004, 04:39:13 pm »

Quote from: Lilwolf on June 14, 2004, 04:13:36 pm

neat idea...

got a question... do you have any problems rotating and moving at the same time?

How about doing a super upper cut or any weird things like that.... could this cause the belt to fall off?

GREAT JOB!

Thanks!

No. It works perfectly so far and it hasn't come close to falling off. I don't think the T-Stik has enough travel to pop it off. I've played Heavy Barrel/Ikari constantly without issue (extreme rotating while moving).

The only weak point would be the pulley that is threaded on the shaft end, pulling/twisting too hard when switching from 4-way to 8-way could lead to trouble, but so far it hasn't. I'd like to get a metal version of the pulley to avoid this potential issue, but I haven't found one yet.

I've also had plently of success with spinner games. After testing the Wonka hack against a true spinner I can comfortably say that it works well. I played Cameltry all the way through without trouble. Arkanoid works, etc. Although I still prefer a spinner for spinner games, I'd say if a person has limited space on the CP and can only fit one joystick, this modification provides an extra bit of gameplay (spinner games/rotary games) without much sacrifice.

Hoopstar · « **Reply #35 on:** June 15, 2004, 08:36:42 am »

Quote from: mr.Curmudgeon on June 14, 2004, 04:39:13 pm

The only weak point would be the pulley that is threaded on the shaft end, pulling/twisting too hard when switching from 4-way to 8-way could lead to trouble, but so far it hasn't. I'd like to get a metal version of the pulley to avoid this potential issue, but I haven't found one yet.

What about (rifle) drilling the control stick shaft and tapping it, then using a metal thread screw to secure the pulley so it can not be pulled off..??

mr.Curmudgeon · « **Reply #36 on:** June 15, 2004, 12:17:53 pm »

Quote from: Hoopstar on June 15, 2004, 08:36:42 am

What about (rifle) drilling the control stick shaft and tapping it, then using a metal thread screw to secure the pulley so it can not be pulled off..??

That would work and if you are comfortable doing that, it would certainly strengthen the modification. However, one of my goals was to create a hack that did not require altering the stock T-Stik in any way. In reality, I'm just not that good with a tap either.

hyiu · « **Reply #37 on:** June 15, 2004, 03:14:10 pm »

mr.Curmudgeon.... I said 12 groove because the original stick has 12 position.... and yes... finding that gear will be the hardest part for me.... since I don't know how to make one....

and Kremmit... sorry for not being clear...
if you look closely... my pic has 1 of the microswitch flip sided installed... (so its kinda like your diagram... just I put the ms on the opposite side since I think that will leave me more space to work on.....)

as to when I'm moving the stick... will it stick catch the ms...
I think if the groove is long enough, it should still click....

jcoleman · « **Reply #38 on:** June 16, 2004, 11:50:59 am »

Quote

finding that gear will be the hardest part for me.... since I don't know how to make one....

How about instead of using a gear, just use a 3" hole saw (or whatever size, really) to cut a round piece of wood? Then you can make cuts at 30-degree intervals and add a stiff (yet flexible) piece of plastic, say cut from a coffee can lid, at each one. Stick this on the bottom of the t-stick and you're set. You may even be able to use a tee nut to hold the wheel on there.

Hell, I might even try this now!

Just another thought...not sure if this is a bug or a feature. You might have some analog translation issues, depending on how slowly you twist the stick. When using this, you'd be able to hold down the rotate button and not just have a momentary switch.

Something tells me that it's silly to try to do this when I already have 2 shiny new LS-30 sticks just begging to be put to use. Druin, are you out there?

Coleman

depressd · « **Reply #39 on:** June 16, 2004, 03:48:44 pm »

Hey, I believe I found a site that sells 12 flange/groove pulleys. See if any of these will work.

https://sdp-si.com/eStore/Direct.asp?GroupID=218


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