A 12v delay relay that activates from a switch

[mrbee]

Im looking for some advice on what component to buy for activating a light on an arcade cabinet.

I have one of these 12v rotating lamps used for construction vehicles, doctors on call and so on.

im building an aliens inspired power loader crate cabinet and the lamp will be placed on the very top.

what id like to happen is when someone inserts a coin, itl trigger the switch pulse, and that would send a signal to a 12v power relay which will turn the lamp on for a certain time and automatically turn off.

its just to give it some character and atmosphere.

ive had a look at this component here https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/193600567517?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=UdLxmPhjSYW&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=PWCfUs5fQ1G&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Just wondering if this would be suitable for this or if there is a better alternative?

thank you

[PL1]

I have one of these 12v rotating lamps used for construction vehicles, doctors on call and so on.

im building an aliens inspired power loader crate cabinet and the lamp will be placed on the very top.

what id like to happen is when someone inserts a coin, itl trigger the switch pulse, and that would send a signal to a 12v power relay which will turn the lamp on for a certain time and automatically turn off.

its just to give it some character and atmosphere.

ive had a look at this component here https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/193600567517?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=UdLxmPhjSYW&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=PWCfUs5fQ1G&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Just wondering if this would be suitable for this or if there is a better alternative?

Here are my concerns with this module:

1. It's a 12v module.
- If the trigger switch circuit is using 12v, it will fry your 5v encoder unless you use a zener diode to regulate it down to 5v the same way you connect a 12v coin recognizer mech to an I-Pac.
- If there is a 5v version of the module, get that one instead.  Use 5v for the operating power.  Connect 12v to COM and connect NO to beacon to Ground.

2. Not sure if this is an "active low" device like an I-Pac where ground triggers the input or if it is an "active high" device like some -- but not all -- of the "ZD" encoders.
- You can't combine "active low" and "active high" inputs, so you will need an encoder with the same type of inputs as the relay control input.
- There's no datasheet on the e-Bay listing and I didn't find any schematics or useful YouTube videos with this exact type of module so you might have to use a little trial and error to figure out which one it is.  I can walk you through the process.

3. As long as #1 and #2 are OK and the coin switch pulse is long enough to trigger the relay, it should do exactly what you want.
-------------------
Another thing you can do with the relay is wire the NC terminal to some white 12v LED cab lights to Ground.  This will give you white cab lights that are normally on, but when you coin up, the cab lights shut off and the beacon turns on.  To further enhance the effect, wire a strobe or some red LED cab lights in parallel with the beacon.


Scott

[mrbee]

Would this one be better? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006151364343.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.17.59d51802fa9FNl-
The coin mech I will be using is a TW-131

So if i connect the trigger line from the coin mech into this modules trigger connection, and also the trigger connection into a zero delay - you are saying that this would surge 12v into the zero delay unit?

I will have to use a multimeter when this arrives and see what voltage its outputting from the trigger point i think is best.
thank you for your advice!

I think this one ive linked is better than the module i linked first, mainly because it has an independent trigger connection. but will have to see.
If the coin mech data line isn't sending a strong enough signal, i will fit a manual lever switch so that the coin will fall and that switch and send the signal to the module and have the data line for the coin mech go to the zero delay unit.

[PL1]

This video gives you some good information about relay modules that might help you find one with the right features.

It focuses on Arduinos, but your coin recognizer signal will work like an Arduino output configured for "active low".

Would this one be better? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006151364343.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.17.59d51802fa9FNl-

Looks like this one is "active high".

This video of a similar module shows it being triggered by 12v at 4:00 - 4:15 so it is an "active high" device.
- I don't see any jumpers for changing the input between "active high" and "active low" mode on either of the boards.

The coin mech I will be using is a TW-131

That model looks like a standard 12v "active low" coin recognizer.

The good news is that these devices have an adjustable pule width so no worries about the coin signal not being long enough to trigger a relay.

You will need a 5v Zener diode if the input is 5v.
- Connect the cathode (band side) to the signal line.
- Connect the anode to ground.
- These connections reverse-bias the diode and allow it to work as a voltage regulator.
- The signal line to the left of the diode will be at 5v.

So if i connect the trigger line from the coin mech into this modules trigger connection, and also the trigger connection into a zero delay - you are saying that this would surge 12v into the zero delay unit?

The output on the coin recognizer is 12v so without a 5v zener diode to regulate the output down to 5v, it will fry any 5v encoder.

The larger problem is that your coin recognizer is "active low", but most ZD encoders are "active high".

To test if your ZD encoder is active high or low, put the black lead of your multimeter on the USB outer shell (ground) and put the red lead on one of the tied-together "common" input connector pins -- they are the ones closer to the edge of the board.
- If you have a 5v "common", it is an "active high" device.
- If you have a 0v "common", it is an "active low" device.

You can see the wide light-green "common" backplane running along the outer edge and connecting with the outboard pin of each wire pair connector on the near side of the board.


-----------------------

To use your active low coin recognizer with an active high ZD encoder and an active high time-delay relay, you need to add a second relay module that is active low as shown in the attached image.
- You can use a timer relay that is "active low".  Instead of connecting the 5v Trigger input to purple as shown, connect it to the green trigger input on the other relay -- this connection must be to the right of the Zener diode for it to be regulated down to 5v.
- To ensure that the top-center relay is "active low", get one that has a jumper to select "HIGH" or "LOW" as seen at 2:44 and 6:19-7:52 in the video at the top of this post.


Scott

[mrbee]

wow thank you for this.
i will check the zero delay board and see what voltage it is getting.
i didnt know anything about active high and active low!

always learning and very grateful for your advice!

[mrbee]

Just wondering Scott, in the circuit diagram you made, what delay module did you reference? was it the one with the digital display or without?
thank you

[PL1]

Just wondering Scott, in the circuit diagram you made, what delay module did you reference? was it the one with the digital display or without?
thank you

Either one you linked to will work.

Here's a good method for figuring out whether an input is active high or low and which terminal connects directly to the input.

If there is only one input terminal for the trigger:
- Set your multimeter to Volts DC.
- Put your multimeter black lead on a known shared ground like the metal outer shell of a USB housing.
- Put your multimeter red lead on the input terminal.
-- If it is at logic HIGH (5v) when not triggered, the input is active low.
-- If it is at logic LOW (0v) when not triggered, the input is active high.

If there are two input terminals/pins for the trigger:
- One input terminal will be at logic LOW (0v) and the other will be logic HIGH. (5v)
- Set your multimeter to Volts DC.
- Put your multimeter black lead on a known shared ground like the metal outer shell of a USB housing.
- Put your multimeter red lead on the input terminal that is at logic HIGH.
- Keep the leads where they are and trigger the input by pressing the button/shorting the two input terminals.
-- If it drops down to logic LOW, it is active low.  Connect the trigger line to the terminal where the red lead is.
-- If it stays at logic HIGH, it is active high.  Connect the trigger line to the other terminal.

As mentioned before:
- If the delay relay module you get works with a 5v active high trigger, use the purple line to trigger it.
- If it works with a 5v active low trigger, use the green line to trigger it.  If an input can only handle 5v, be sure to connect to the right of the Zener diode. i.e. after the voltage has been regulated down to 5v max.


Scott

[mrbee]

absolutely astounding reply. thank you so much for taking the time to explain this.
im waiting on the components to arrive, hopefully in a weeks time and begin wiring and testing.

in the mean time i am making an atx case for a pc out of an old army ammo case, this will be put inside the cabinet and the relay components will be inside a case that is suited for outdoor components to give it a bit of industrial/military feel to it. not that anyone else will see the insides mind you!

am looking forward to getting the components now and getting it set up. its going to bring a very geeky smile to my face seeing the amber light flash and spin when a coin is inserted.
its the simple things in life 😅

[mrbee]

Just wondering Scott, in the circuit diagram you made, what delay module did you reference? was it the one with the digital display or without?
thank you

Either one you linked to will work.

Here's a good method for figuring out whether an input is active high or low and which terminal connects directly to the input.

If there is only one input terminal for the trigger:
- Set your multimeter to Volts DC.
- Put your multimeter black lead on a known shared ground like the metal outer shell of a USB housing.
- Put your multimeter red lead on the input terminal.
-- If it is at logic HIGH (5v) when not triggered, the input is active low.
-- If it is at logic LOW (0v) when not triggered, the input is active high.

If there are two input terminals/pins for the trigger:
- One input terminal will be at logic LOW (0v) and the other will be logic HIGH. (5v)
- Set your multimeter to Volts DC.
- Put your multimeter black lead on a known shared ground like the metal outer shell of a USB housing.
- Put your multimeter red lead on the input terminal that is at logic HIGH.
- Keep the leads where they are and trigger the input by pressing the button/shorting the two input terminals.
-- If it drops down to logic LOW, it is active low.  Connect the trigger line to the terminal where the red lead is.
-- If it stays at logic HIGH, it is active high.  Connect the trigger line to the other terminal.

As mentioned before:
- If the delay relay module you get works with a 5v active high trigger, use the purple line to trigger it.
- If it works with a 5v active low trigger, use the green line to trigger it.  If an input can only handle 5v, be sure to connect to the right of the Zener diode. i.e. after the voltage has been regulated down to 5v max.


Scott

Hey Scott, just looking for some more info regarding the active high/low relay module.

I have connected everything now and did a basic setup of the wiring without the coin mech, just to test. So I have connected the 12v supply as you have shown to the active low relay module, and to the timer delay module. When I trigger the timer module with a 5v trigger signal; the timer works, relay clicks, and powers on the beacon just fine but I hear no click of the relay for the active high/low module. there is a power light on the module though.

The module I have the 12v active low relay set up, the connections on the left are dc+, dc-, and in1. on the right its no, com and nc. in your diagram it says trigger, but there is no connection for "trigger" just "in1".

EDIT - I have figured out my mistake. I attached the zener diode so that the "in1, or "trigger" input is downgraded to a 5v signal. This module requires a 12v signal input, I have to connect the zener diode to the right side output of the relay to the zero delay joystick module.

Once the project box arrives I will take pictures and show the finished device (which will also house system menu test buttons).
thank you

[PL1]

When I trigger the timer module with a 5v trigger signal; the timer works, relay clicks, and powers on the beacon just fine but I hear no click of the relay for the active high/low module. there is a power light on the module though.

The module I have the 12v active low relay set up, the connections on the left are dc+, dc-, and in1. on the right its no, com and nc. in your diagram it says trigger, but there is no connection for "trigger" just "in1".

Glad to hear that the timer relay is working for you.  As long as the ZD encoder can provide enough current to trigger the relay, that part of the setup will be fine.   

The following reaction chain is a one-way street.
- If you manually trigger the relay in step 2, the chain will continue down the list.
- If you manually trigger the relay in step 4, it won't go up the list to trigger the relay in step 2.  That's why you didnt get a click from the active low relay when you triggered the timer relay.
1. When a coin is dropped into the mech, the green line pulses LOW.
2. That LOW triggers the relay which momentarily connects COM (red) and NO. (purple)
3. That connection applies 5v from the ZD encoder common (red) to the ZD encoder input (purple) and the delay relay trigger. (dotted purple)
4a.When the ZD encoder input (purple) has 5v applied, the encoder outputs a button press via USB
4b. When the timer relay input (dotted purple) has 5v applied, it triggers the timer relay which connects 12v COM (yellow) to NO (blue) for the set time period.
5. While that relay is closed, 12v is applied to the beacon so it lights up.

"in1" (Input 1) is the control input that you use to trigger the relay.  Different labels, same function.

To trigger the active low relay, you need to apply logic LOW (ground) to "in1". (green line)
- Try touching a jumper wire from "dc-" to "in1".

If the relay clicks, power down and hook everything up like the diagram to confirm that everything does work together.

If the relay doesn't click, you might not have the high/low jumper set right or if there's no jumper they might have sent you an active high relay or you might have a defective relay module.
- Set your multimeter to DCV and check if "in1" is logic HIGH or LOW.  It should be HIGH if the relay is active low.
- Post pics and/or a link to the relay you ordered.


Scott

[PL1]

EDIT - I have figured out my mistake. I attached the zener diode so that the "in1, or "trigger" input is downgraded to a 5v signal. This module requires a 12v signal input, I have to connect the zener diode to the right side output of the relay to the zero delay joystick module.

The module needs a 12v input so you don't need a zener diode for the green line.

You don't need a zener diode for the red and purple because they are 5v lines.


Scott

[mrbee]

thank you again for your reply.
I dont know whats up with me. I can look at the diagram all day long (am currently in bed still puzzling over it before i go to sleep lol) when it comes to connecting it to the actual devices, you could swear ive never seen that diagram in my life XD

like its so simple to follow as well but today im like.. "in1".. is that why its not working? is this not a trigger? why is a active low relay not triggering with an active low signal?
(adjusts header to active high).. "right now it should work"...

doesnt work..

so i get stuck at that point researching the module again if i got the right one.

i think whats thrown me off track is my colourblindness, firstly i see the green line and the green dotted line. but the line also to the zero delay unit looks green to me. but it is red.
so in my mind is "green is 5v".

in the diagram it shows the zener diode connected to the trigger of the 12v active low module. so im thinking then "aha! so the trigger must be 5v for the whole circuit as the trigger for the timer delay module activated at 5v. and 5v must go to the zero delay panel, it must also be 5v for the active high/low unit... right?

the module has a 12v trigger and outputs 12v.

this module in the "in1" its only a 12v trigger that activated it, so it wasnt activating the relay when the timer was triggered, the timer works for a 5v trigger, but it has to be 12v for the other relay. making me then think its not working..

so if the coin mech outputs 12v, then this is all good. ive just stumbled over my own feet.

my mistake for testing it without the mech (i tested with just a 12v supply for the circuit and a 5v line inbetween a manual button switch to simulate a 5v trigger).

tomorrow evening i will properly get it all connected and should be all good to go.
just wish my brain would delete all of the useless info built up over the years and get this diagram in there permanently.

this and lighting circuits always confuse me for some reason i have no idea why!!

my only concern is the 12v relay, this is being triggered by a 12v signal from the mech, but the zero delay unit cant have 12v going through it, so im thinking.. the zener needs to be applied to the right side (the "no" output of the relay)..

im probably totally gettng this wrong again.

i will check 1) as you say with the jumper of the -dc to the in1 to see if it triggers (there is a jumper i can switch between high and low)
2) just connect everything as you say and not overthink it XD

[PL1]

i think whats thrown me off track is my colourblindness, firstly i see the green line and the green dotted line. but the line also to the zero delay unit looks green to me. but it is red.

Sorry about my confusing color choices.   

How about orange instead of green?

my only concern is the 12v relay, this is being triggered by a 12v signal from the mech, but the zero delay unit cant have 12v going through it, so im thinking.. the zener needs to be applied to the right side (the "no" output of the relay).

With a relay, the coil side (VCC, GND, and IN1) on the left of this relay diagram is electrically separate from the contacts side (COM, NO, and NC) on the right.



The coil side is like your hand moving a light switch and the contact side is like the wiring contacts for the light switch.

When you turn a light switch on and off, the switch contacts move (mechanical control of the connection), but the electricity to power the light does not flow through your hand or the part of the switch lever that you touch. (no electrical connection between your hand and the wiring)

Your active low relay has 12v on the coil side coming from the 12v power in and the coin mech signal line.
- The contacts side has the 5v COM coming from the ZD encoder and wires leading from NO to the 5v inputs on the encoder and timer relay.
- The 12v on the coil side is electrically separate from the 5v on the contacts side so there's no need for a zener diode on the contacts side.
- You would only need a zener diode to regulate the 12v signal line from the coin mech down to 5v if you had a relay module input that would be damaged by 12v.

Your timer relay's coil side uses 12v to power the coil and a 5v control input.
- The module's circuit design keeps the 12v operating voltage for the relay from feeding back through the 5v input line
- The contacts side uses 12v on COM to power the beacon on NO.
- The 12v is only on the COM terminal because you connected an external wire with 12v to the COM terminal.  It did not come through the relay's coil side circuit.


Scott

[mrbee]

That is exactly what I was confused about thank you! For some reason I figured that 12v going into the relay means 12v coming out of the relay, not understanding that COMs voltage is determined by what you put into it from the other devices.

Your colour choices are spot on, its just me. I didnt realise until it was night time and my phone screen was bright and I could see its a different shade of green, and confirmed then that this different shade is indeed red XD Its very embarrassing when my kids are colouring in and im asking them what colour the pens are and my 6 year old is holding the pen up to me saying  slowly "this one is greeeeeen!".

im going to wire this up tomorrow at work when its quiet and confirm its all good!
ive been building the base unit today.

thank you very much again!

[mrbee]

Edited -
everything is working except for my timer relay.
this particular relay only triggers from 6v to 36v for some reason. Totally overlooked this when purchasing it.

itl activate if you used 2 aa 1.5v batteries but 5v from the zero delay.. nothing.

i have ordered a step up module to bring 5v to 6v between the zero delay and the trigger so fingers crossed that will work.
failing that I have another time relay on the way that activates with 5v
itl take about a week or so to arrive so will check back then hopefully with it fitted in to the base

[mrbee]

Yeah im about to chuck this thing through a window.
Simply cannot get my head around it.

So - ive connected everything exactly as shown. Like triple checked.

I tried then looking for ground issues, turns out the timer delay module, multimeter testing the trigger and ground trigger points with nothing connected, at the positive and negative of the trigger of the timer delay module it is a constant 11.3v, even if I connect a 5v trigger to it. its as if the trigger connection on the timer is also receiving the voltage, so its like pumping 11.3v back into the zero delay unit.

two of the boards i have are the same thing. constantly giving voltage into the ground of at least 1.3v across the circuit

[mrbee]

Im at a loss

I have connected everything as the diagram shows but it wont activate the timer relay trigger.

I thought it was because it was a 6v to 36v trigger. it is infact a 3v+ trigger and it is the relay side which is 6v to 36v.
So i didnt need to buy that step up converter.

Using a multimeter i check the voltages..

They are all over the place. Narrowed it down to the timer relay module.

The trigger and gnd_t, testing the voltage of these is a constant 2.3v!

so this feeds back to the zd module so its showing a button is being constantly pressed. the 2.3v is enough to activate a button press.
now. if i change the gnd_t to ground, the voltage reading of the trigger is 11.3v!
so this feeds back to the zd unit and shorts it.

if i dont connect gnd_t. nothing happens. timer relay wont trigger

im.not sure what to connect the timer relay gnd to.

im thinking maybe its because the relay is being powered by 12v. so i will try to power it via micro usb 5v and see if this stops the 2.3v constant in gnd_t and trigger

[PL1]

* Deleting the reply I'd been typing up for an hour and a half before seeing your latest edit.    *

1. Stop flailing around making changes.  It's causing confusion and you might fry something by mixing 5v and 12v connections.

2. We need to go back and check the assumptions about the relays you're using.
- Need good pics or a diagram of the timer relay showing all the connection labels and any jumpers on the module.  Pretty sure the connections are different than what I thought they would be based on the earlier video.
- Specs and links to the relays that you purchased would also be very helpful as would any datasheets that might have been sent with them.

3. Your latest edit contains some info that might be useful.

if i change the gnd_t to ground, the voltage reading of the trigger is 11.3v!
so this feeds back to the zd unit and shorts it.

The input circuit for the delay timer is a different design than expected i.e. no onboard 5v regulator and possibly 4 connections on the coil side instead of 3.

You definitely don't want to mix 5v from the ZD with 12v from the relay input circuit.

if i dont connect gnd_t. nothing happens. timer relay wont trigger

im.not sure what to connect the timer relay gnd to.

So "gnd_t" is a separate connection from regular ground, right?

If so, pretty sure how to get it working, but need the pics and info requested in #2 to confirm.

Hang in there, we've almost got it working.   


Scott

[mrbee]

I really appreciate your advice and tim e you have put into responsibg to me about this.
So much going on lately (its 1.45am, just got back from the hospital with my wife. anaphylaxis from ibuprofen!
shes all good now but just laying in bed thinking... right lets figure out this relay problem now lol



this is the timer delay module (pixtured
my thinking is to power it with 5v. or. see if bridging the two gnd points will turn trigger gnd into a common gnd..
not sure if these do anything mind you!

but as a last attempt now ive bought this one here https://amzn.eu/d/6IENx3K

its got a "low" and high trigger so i can connect the coin trigger to this module and also the 12v relay

[PL1]

just got back from the hospital with my wife. anaphylaxis from ibuprofen!
shes all good now

Glad to hear she's OK.   

... right lets figure out this relay problem now lol

this is the timer delay module (pixtured

Here are two ways to wire this XY-J02 timer relay -- either one should work.
- They should also work with the JZ-801 timer relay if someone has that version.

1. Power the module with 12v. (active low)
- Connect 12v (yellow) to the "6.0-30.0v" port.
- Connect ground (black) to the "GND" port.
- Connect 12v (yellow) to the "Trigger" port.
- Connect the active low coin mech signal (dotted orange) to the "GND_T" port.

Before a coin is dropped into the mech, the signal line is 12v so the relay is not triggered.

When a coin is dropped into the mech, the signal line goes momentarily LOW and triggers the timer relay.



2. Power the module with 5v. (active high)
- Connect the micro USB 5v power supply
- Connect switched 5v from the ZD encoder (dotted purple) to the "Trigger" port.
- Connect ground (black) to the "GND_T" port.

When the other relay is triggered by the coin mech, 5v Common from the ZD encoder HIGH is on the "Trigger" port  and triggers the timer relay.




Scott

[mrbee]

YOU ARE AN ABSOLUTE GOD!!

This solved it!! Wow, I just wish I had the calm sense and infinite knowledge that you possess.
Am in awe.

I've been on many forums, none have someone like you on there. Id like to send you a small reward or something over paypal if thats cool with you? pm me your paypal email.
I would have been stumped to no end with this one and am just very grateful for your advice.

Who would have thought that this timer relay was wired in such a way, except you of course.
It's all working perfectly.

I will take a picture of it finished hopefully on saturday and post it here so anyone looking to do this will be able to. If I can do it, a baby can do it, and if a baby can do it... XD

I went with the method 1) btw 12v in trigger, coin mech into gnd_t, which is fed from the trigger of the other relay that the coin mech is in.

[PL1]

Glad to assist.   

Would you mind testing two other common trigger configurations so we can confirm and document them as good options?
- The 12v active high option is already confirmed and well-documented on several other sites.

1. Power the module with 5v. (active high)
- Connect the micro USB 5v power supply.
- Connect switched 5v from the ZD encoder (dotted purple) to the "Trigger" port.
- Connect ground (black) to the "GND_T" port.

2. Power the module with 5v. (active low)
- Connect the micro USB 5v power supply.
- Connect un-switched 5v either from the ZD encoder (red) or other 5v source to the "Trigger" port.
- Connect switched ground (black) to the "GND_T" port. i.e. button press applies ground to the port like an I-Pac.

Thanks in advance for your consideration.   


Scott

[mrbee]

no problem i will do this tomorrow and report back 

[mrbee]

2) didnt work. I am not sure though if I wired it correctly though...

nothing seems to activate it when wiring it this way.

[PL1]

2) didnt work. I am not sure though if I wired it correctly though...

nothing seems to activate it when wiring it this way.

So you're saying that it works if you wire it for (1) 12v active low (steady 12v + momentary LOW) or (2) 5v active high (momentary HIGH + steady ground) . . .

(1)  (2)

. . . but it doesn't work as (3) 5v active low (steady 5v + momentary LOW) with 5v power on the micro USB, a steady 5v on "Trigger" (red line from the ZD, not the purple), and then you trigger the timer by momentarily touching ground (black line) to "GND-T"?

If that doesn't work, does it work if you (4) wire it like #3, but get the 5v on "Trigger" from some source other than the ZD encoder red line?

If that doesn't work, try this (5):
- 5v power on micro USB.
- Steady 5v on the "6 - 30v" terminal? (this connection might not be needed -- test with and without it)
- Steady ground on the "GND" terminal.
- Steady 5v on the "Trigger" terminal.
- Momentarily touch ground to the "GND_T" terminal to trigger the timer.


Scott