Digital TV antenna

[DaOld Man]

I currently have cable tv, and for the money (80 bucks a month), I dont like paying for commercials. (No hbo, showtime, etc, just basic cable.)

I was thinking about putting up a digital antenna to get free channels.

Im about 55 miles from Nashville Tn and should be able to get several channels, with the right antenna of course.

Just looking for suggestions of outdoor antennas you have used and would recommend.

I used this handy website to see the channels in my area:

http://www.tvfool.com

Thanks.

[DaOld Man]

Added note: that tvfool site hasnt been updated in a while, so dont know if all the channels it shows are still in service.

I was looking at this one:

https://www.amazon.com/ANTOP-Antenna-Omnidirectional-Smartpass-Amplifier/dp/B07VQYQSPM/ref=pd_ybh_a_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=EK4F1QP9K3EJBF60XSGV

They claim its 360 degree reception so shouldnt need a rotator. I dont like that its made in china, so probably junk, but I bet it would be hard to find one made in USA.
Any thoughts?

[BadMouth]

Haven't had cable in forever. 
Messing with antennas became a hobby for a few years while I was trying to get every channel possible.

Omni-directional = competing noise from all directions
That antenna also looks way too small for the distance (despite what the manufacturer's claim).
55 Miles is a lot if there are any ridges in between.

Post a screen grab of your report (with address redacted) and I can be of more help.

EDIT: FYI "Digital" and "HD" antennas are just marketing.
An antenna that was designed to receive 500MHz 50 years ago will receive 500MHz just the same today.
If there is an old gigantic monster on your roof already, just hook it up.

[BadMouth]

Don't believe the mileage claims on small antennas.
At 55 miles you're going to need the clearstream 4 or a big 8 bay antenna with a pre-amp; on the roof or possibly an old school looking eyesore if any of the channels are VHF.
Cheap antennas will probably get the signal just as well, but won't hold up as well over time.  It may be worth it to buy the cheap on for experimentation and seeing how you like over the air tv.

I started out with rabbit ears and upgraded in small increments trying to lock more stations in solid.  Ended up with a Channel Master CM-4228.  In retrospect, I should have just skipped to it to begin with.
The performance of the clearstream 4 is actually pretty close, but it looks a lot nicer.

Looking at stations for Nashville, NBC and PBS is VHF hi which could be a problem, but the government keeps reshuffling to sell off frequencies to the cell phone carriers.
The TV fool report should be up to date.

It's not easy or cheap unless the stations are close, but once done it doesn't take long for the savings on cable to add up.
The picture quality is actually better than cable on some stations because it is not compressed. 
Since it's digital, a single frequency can carry multiple channels, so they add extra channels like https://www.comettv.com and https://www.grittv.com
I get 6 signals, but 18 channels. 

I have a lot more to say on the subject, but will wait for the tvfool report to see if it is worthwhile.

[BadMouth]

If you aren't worried about current shows or local news, check out Pluto TV.
It's mostly cable shows from 5-10 years ago, which is all new to me because it's been that long since I had cable.

https://pluto.tv/live-tv/pluto-tv-travel?utm_source=homepage
There's an app for it on all platforms.

[PL1]

Added note: that tvfool site hasnt been updated in a while, so dont know if all the channels it shows are still in service.

Even if some channels have changed, odds are that the same transmitter sites and towers are still in use.
- You can double check at https://www.fcc.gov/media/engineering/dtvmaps or https://www.antennasdirect.com/transmitter-locator.html.

They claim its 360 degree reception so shouldnt need a rotator. I dont like that its made in china, so probably junk, but I bet it would be hard to find one made in USA.

First step is to look at the signal power (dBm) and propagation path (hopefully Line of Sight, not an edge or Tropospheric) on TV Fool.
- If the signals are in the "Red" or "Grey" category, an omni-directional antenna probably won't work -- you'll almost certainly need a precisely positioned, more directional antenna with better gain.
- Signals from 55 miles away are probably going to be "Grey".

An antenna that was designed to receive 500MHz 50 years ago will receive 500MHz just the same today.
If there is an old gigantic monster on your roof already, just hook it up.

Very true.   

Several concerns with an antenna that old are the line condition and matching the impedance. (i.e. Use an adapter to connect 300 ohm twin-lead to 75 ohm coax.)


Scott

[Ken Layton]

Antenna Man on you tube reviews all types of tv antennas:

[pbj]

So many people argued with me that their old attic antennas weren’t “digital” that I just smile and nod now when the topic comes up.  I cannot imagine having something like that and not simply hooking it up to see what happens, but I suppose that’s why I’m here.

I had just as much luck with a BS antenna made out of coat hangers and an old dish as I did with commercial products.  Those cheap leaf things work great in Houston but I am drowning in signal.

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

I've got a large-ish UHF antenna inside my attic run though a pre-amp for various software defined radio applications which I also split off into a 4-tuner ATSC card in my Plex Media Server. Obviously being inside the attic is less than ideal for TV reception, but I still can only see a fraction of the channels I know are nearby in my area, and the all-or-nothing nature of modern digital over the air broadcast makes most of them unwatchable.

Unless you're like Jim and inundated with signals, good antenna placement is nearly as important as the antenna itself.

[DaOld Man]

Thanks for all the replies guys, I knew I was asking the right group.
I have a lot to digest before I pick out my antenna, but if you have more info please keep it coming.

The TV fool report should be up to date.

I have a lot more to say on the subject, but will wait for the tvfool report to see if it is worthwhile.

Is this what you want? It is for my area, with my house in the center of the radar scope.

[jennifer]

I got the best one W/mart sells and it works well, although if I park my car in front of the house it seems to affect the signal sometimes and I get like missing blocks of pixels, Normally I just watch season sets of DVDs and VCRs as background noise and dont watch much TV which is odd since I collect tvs and have mountains of them.

[wp34]

If you aren't worried about current shows or local news, check out Pluto TV.
It's mostly cable shows from 5-10 years ago, which is all new to me because it's been that long since I had cable.

https://pluto.tv/live-tv/pluto-tv-travel?utm_source=homepage
There's an app for it on all platforms.

+1 for Pluto.  The This Old House channel is great.  It is amazing how much content Pluto has for free.

[Howard_Casto]

This old house is great.  90% of what I know about home improvement/repair I learned from this old house.  That being said that's a pbs show.  Even rinky dink states like mine have a strong pbs signal due to federal funding.

[BadMouth]

You could get the ABC and PBS to the Northeast with a small antenna, possibly in the window.  That will just make you want more.  Having all networks is nice.
There is something to be said for spending $40, putting the antenna in the window and calling it done though.

Unfortunately CBS is VHF Low, which means you'll need a big old school pointy thing. 
A clearstream 4V with the little add-on VHF bar might be able to pull in the VHF High NBC and PBS if you were willing to do without CBS, but at that distance I have my doubts.

Your best shot at getting all the stations is this big ugly thing pointing south.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BSGCSA/?coliid=I4CQHDBYXRGNH&colid=37OS8ZOB96163&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
You'll also need a way to mount it.  Chimney straps or tripod.  Galvanized pipe rail for chain link fences works well for a post.
If the cable run from it is any distance at all, add this amplifier (I would add it anyway):
https://www.amazon.com/Winegard-LNA-200-Preamplifier-Antenna-Amplifier/dp/B00DQN3R9O/ref=psdc_172665_t1_B000BSGCSA
Beware of the super strong "deep fringe" boosters, if there is a station too close they are actually counterproductive.

If the signal is split between multiple TVs in the house, you'll probably need a distribution amplfier as well.
I would see if the other items pay off before buying that though.

So you're looking at $250-$300 to start.  I think it will work, but there are no guarantees.  Especially if you have large trees close to the house in that direction.
Antennas Direct has a 90 day return policy and can advise you on what antenna they think would work best: https://www.antennasdirect.com/return-policy.html
They don't sell that style VHF/UHF antenna though, so you'd end up having to buy separate VHF and UHF antennas, plus a combiner from them.
You could just get the Clearstream 4V, see how you like the UHF channels and decide whether it is worth adding VHF later.

That's my $.02 
Someone else might have different ideas.

If you decide to drop the money and get all your signals, then we can talk about spending even more money on DVRs with program guides for a more cable like experience. 
I do find that I get more out of over the air TV when I can record things and watch them when I want.  (can also skip commercials)


EDIT: The Channel Master website has the antenna I linked to above for the same price, but with an amplifier included: https://www.channelmaster.com/Digital_HDTV_Outdoor_TV_Antenna_p/cm-3020.htm

[PL1]

The channels you're trying to get are -60 to -90 dBm and edge paths.
- Not out of the question, but you'll need a good antenna to pull those signals.
-- For comparison, the channels I get with an inexpensive omni-directional antenna are -20 to -53 dBm and LOS + edge paths.
- Good news: The Noise Margin for your channels isn't prohibitively low.

From the TV Signal Analysis FAQ:

NM(dB)
This is the predicted Noise Margin (NM) of each channel "in the air" at your location, specified in dB.  You must add/subtract any gains/losses you get from your antenna, building penetration, amps, cables, splitters, and other factors present in your situation.  Hypothetically speaking, you need to end up with an NM value above 0 in order to pick up a station.

- See the FAQ for a more detailed explanation.


Scott

[BadMouth]

Forget everything I said.  The CBS channel frequency was moved up to UHF per their wikipedia page.  Get a used clearstream 4V and see what you get.

[DaOld Man]

Im looking at this clearstream 4V

https://www.amazon.com/ClearStream-Indoor-Outdoor-Antenna-Mount/dp/B00SVNKT86/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=clearstream+4V&qid=1605143881&s=electronics&sr=1-3

Comments?

Howard, I like "This Old House"
"Living off the grid" is pretty cool too, but I think its on a cable channel, not PBS

Thinking about the 70mile one. This can mount in the attic or outside.
If I mount it in the attic it will be invisible and weather protected, but I can probably get 10 more feet of height by mounting it on the roof (I have a two story house).
Do you think putting it in the attic will decrease the signal much? Maybe too much?

I really appreciate your guys input on this.
On a side note, I made a antenna out of cardboard and aluminum foil (got plans from the web). I could get a few channels with it, but they would come and go.
I got 2 or 3 out of nashville (55 mile south) and one out of Bowling Green (30 miles north east.)
It was sitting on a table beside my TV. Channels kept fading and the old digital screen lock up. I finally threw it away.

[BadMouth]

That's the one I had in mind.  The little add on VHF antenna may or may not get NBC(high VHF) at that distance, but it's worth a try.

Based on your tvfool report, don't put it in the attic.  The signals just aren't strong enough to get away with it.  Nothing wrong with attaching it to a board and trying different places to experiment though.

[PL1]

Im looking at this clearstream 4V

https://www.amazon.com/ClearStream-Indoor-Outdoor-Antenna-Mount/dp/B00SVNKT86/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=clearstream+4V&qid=1605143881&s=electronics&sr=1-3

Looks like a good choice.   

Thinking about the 70mile one. This can mount in the attic or outside.
If I mount it in the attic it will be invisible and weather protected, but I can probably get 10 more feet of height by mounting it on the roof (I have a two story house).
Do you think putting it in the attic will decrease the signal much? Maybe too much?

You can check if height is a major factor by changing it in your TV Fool search and comparing signal strength results.
- Probably won't be a big difference, but sometimes a few feet makes the difference.
- Tried one antenna in the living room but reception was a bit spotty for two weak channels.  Moved it 40 feet to the guest room and reception is 99.9% solid on those channels.   

Wouldn't hurt to try it in the attic, but you'll ger better signal strength on the roof.
- If you have a metal roof, don't even bother trying in the attic.
- Any trees in the way? (leaves can greatly attenuate signals)
- Cable routing/length is another consideration.

Nothing wrong with attaching it to a board and trying different places to experiment though.

+1 on that.

With the weak signals you're trying to receive, you may need to tinker with antenna placement and orientation.

On a side note, I made a antenna out of cardboard and aluminum foil (got plans from the web). I could get a few channels with it, but they would come and go.
I got 2 or 3 out of nashville (55 mile south) and one out of Bowling Green (30 miles north east.)
It was sitting on a table beside my TV. Channels kept fading and the old digital screen lock up. I finally threw it away.

Rather impressive that you got even remotely decent reception at your location with that setup.   


Scott

[DaOld Man]

Heres a link to the antenna I built. It surprised me it did as well as it did, but wasnt good enough.

Probably work good on very close stations.
Of course cant use it out in the weather.  My plan was that if it passed the test i was going to make one out of plexi glass instead of cardboard.

https://www.instructables.com/Powerful-Modern-Homemade-HDTV-Antenna/

[pbj]

Similar to the one I did with a board and coat hangers in front of an old Dish Network receiver.  Wasn’t very omnidirectional but I just pointed it towards Fox for NFL and The Simpsons.  Also had a USB Ethernet adapter mounted on a windsurfer antenna.... pointed that at an apartment complex and borrowed WiFi for over 4 years.  Bridged it to the house and I could easily get 400KBps+ which was fine before 4K.

AT&T encrypts their routers by default now.   

[Howard_Casto]

This should go without saying, but if you put your antenna outside be sure to put a ground wire in there to avoid lightning strikes. 

[Vocalitus]

Tell your cable provider you are poor and they will give you the $10 basic package.  You can get more than what your $20 TV antenna provides.

[BadMouth]

Tell your cable provider you are poor and they will give you the $10 basic package.  You can get more than what your $20 TV antenna provides.

Comcast asks for proof that you are receiving public assistance of some kind.  I would love to get that price on internet service.

[BadMouth]

Does anyone following this thread have comments on program guide/dvr solutions?

Tivo
I love my Tivo Roamio OTA w/lifetime(of the device) and minis, but the experience isn't as good as it was before Rovi bought them out and switched to their own programming data.
Earlier this year the DVR was recording reruns of Master Chef as new episodes.  Last year it didn't record the first episode of The Orville.  I didn't know the season had started until it recorded the second episode.
I'm also still on the old user experience and have read complaints that the new one makes you watch a streamed commercial before playing back a DVR recording, which is insane and unacceptable.
Still...it just works.  It's the cable box experience with antenna.  Plug and play. No way I'd pay a recurring charge for a subscription though. 

Plex
I picked up a lifetime Plex Pass on a black friday some years ago as a backup.  At the time they were getting their data from Gracenote which is a good source.  I didn't understand how they could afford to pay for the Gracenote data in perpetuity for all the lifetime pass holders.  Something must have given, because I see major complaints about the program guide data the last few years.  The last thing I read said they had made a new deal with someone, but the details weren't released.  It worked well, but the picture quality wasn't quite as good as the Tivo minis.  I was told that the Roku sticks I was using required transcoding while some other devices like Fire TV sticks could have streamed the format directly without transcoding.  This solution requires a Plex server to be running in order to watch the antenna tv.

Fire TV Recast
I have no personal experience with it.  Reviews have said that it works, but isn't as intuitive and smooth as the Tivo.  When it was launched they were using Gracenote data.  I assume they still are..Amazon can afford it.  Since I can't comment on the user experience, the only downside I see is that you are limited to using Amazon devices.

Tablo
No personal experience with Tablo either.  Seems like a solid solution.  Requires a subscription to get more than one day of guide data.  Unlike Tivo, the lifetime subscription option transfers to future devices for your lifetime.  Subscription includes out of home streaming, which is a nice addition especially with slingbox announcing they are shutting down their servers.  Only downside I see is that if you have router or switch problems, you now also have TV problems.

Sling AirTV
Integrates the local OTA channels into your sling program guide.  Does out of home streaming.  As far as I know, it requires a Sling TV subscription.

Generic $20-30 tuner box
Never got around to trying one of these.  Some stations transmit EPG data, so how complete the EPG is will depend on the stations in your area.  A lot of TVs also have a built in EPG that use this guide data.  Recordings are manual and require external storage.
Still it's cheap and isn't dependent on any network connections to function.

[javeryh]

Is that Amazon antenna good enough to work about 12 miles outside of NYC?  I got rid of cable back around February and haven't missed it at all but football games are a pain to watch so I'd love an over the air solution.  No idea how to install it though...

[BadMouth]

Is that Amazon antenna good enough to work about 12 miles outside of NYC?  I got rid of cable back around February and haven't missed it at all but football games are a pain to watch so I'd love an over the air solution.  No idea how to install it though...

12 miles?  Go buy a $10 set of rabbit ears. Seriously.

If you want to buy something more substantial, get a clearstream 1.

Just don't buy one of those cheap flat antennas.

Good lord you'll probably get an absurd number of stations that close to NYC.

EDIT: on second thought, look at some of the diy antenna tutorials and see if you have most of the parts for any of them laying around.

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

To elaborate on my experience with OTA on Plex; I picked up a WinTV-quadHD (https://hauppauge.com/pages/products/data_quadhd.html) maybe a little over a year ago. It installed in my OpenMediaServer based Plex server with no setup (yay Linux) and was immediately seen within Plex. It presents itself to the system as two cards each with two tuners, though I'm not sure what difference that makes.

My particular antenna/geographic combination nets me around 16 channels, all mostly unwatchable, and so as such I haven't actually used it a tremendous amount, however for when I have watched it, it's worked well. I've successfully streamed an incoming program to a web browser locally on the network, amazon fire sticks and fire cubes. It's also worked well remotely over my 10Mbit upload streaming to a browser remotely and also an Android phone.

I did some volunteer work at the local PBS affiliate working on a live show (at least until Covid changed the way production worked). There was some transmission anomaly during one show, and having an additional way to quickly pull up what the received OTA signal looked like at a distance from the station was neat.


Recording shows is as easy as selecting them on the programming grid and clicking record once, every time, only new episodes, etc. It saves files in the raw transport stream of the OTA broadcast, so the files are quite a bit larger than they really need to be. On Linux there's probably some fancy shell script that could be configured to sweep and re-encode files periodically. There might even be a Plex plugin which would do the same. Since it's the raw transport stream, close caption information is recorded as-is from OTA, for better or worse. This is potentially amusing for live broadcasts where the captions are occasionally corrected on the fly.

My biggest complaint is that additional channels which do not have programming guide information (such as continuous loop doppler radar) are not viewable within Plex. The receiver sees them, but without a programming 'slot' to assign to them, they remain disabled.

Overall in my experience the Plex solution is very much a DIY implementation. It appeals to my desire to tinker, and while the end-user experience is pretty good, it's not as bullet proof as a dedicated bit of hardware.

[mameotron]

I don't understand anything anyone said in this thread regarding antennas and stuff.  I moved into my new house 4 years ago and there was an old school pointy antenna thing in the attic.  I hooked it up to my TV and I get all four network "streams" (4-6 channels per network) plus 2 separate PBS stations, plus some random other channels that come and go.  It works great for me, I never even considered getting cable.  Well, mostly because out in the sticks wherre I live, there is no cable.  But I digress.

[DaOld Man]

Just to update, I have been using the IP channels on my smart TV (lots of old TV shows and movies free through the internet), and I downloaded Pluto on my firestick and get a bunch more free channels.
I am putting the antenna on the back burner for awhile, but may still buy a cheap one to see if I can get any decent channels (signal strength wise).
I havent cut the cable yet, its like drugs, very hard to get away from. But I need to.

[jennifer]

Just to update, I have been using the IP channels on my smart TV (lots of old TV shows and movies free through the internet), and I downloaded Pluto on my firestick and get a bunch more free channels.
I am putting the antenna on the back burner for awhile, but may still buy a cheap one to see if I can get any decent channels (signal strength wise).
I havent cut the cable yet, its like drugs, very hard to get away from. But I need to.

Just do the deed, you can buy most of them shows in box sets anyway, if you go through withdrawal, Just start a thread on how you miss season 3 of the Hulk, Or whatever and all the commercials...We will be all sympathetic and do some old Gunsmoke skits for your amusement.

[DaOld Man]

Just to update, I have been using the IP channels on my smart TV (lots of old TV shows and movies free through the internet), and I downloaded Pluto on my firestick and get a bunch more free channels.
I am putting the antenna on the back burner for awhile, but may still buy a cheap one to see if I can get any decent channels (signal strength wise).
I havent cut the cable yet, its like drugs, very hard to get away from. But I need to.

Just do the deed, you can buy most of them shows in box sets anyway, if you go through withdrawal, Just start a thread on how you miss season 3 of the Hulk, Or whatever and all the commercials...We will be all sympathetic and do some old Gunsmoke skits for your amusement.

Thanks. You guys are the bestest! (Our Gang).

[BadMouth]

In regards to Pluto, take the time to favorite the channels you'll actually watch.  It will add a new category to the genres called favorites.

[DaOld Man]

In regards to Pluto, take the time to favorite the channels you'll actually watch.  It will add a new category to the genres called favorites.

Thanks, I didnt know I could do that. That will make viewing  a lot easier.

[nitrogen_widget]

Thanksgiving day I was running home to grab my cookie rack and coat hanger dual bow-tie home made antenna because the HD directional on my mom's roof stopped turning and we couldn't get the games.
it's mounted to a piece of plywood and every cable is zip-tied in place.
I built it for the winter Olympics of 2014 I think.

It did the job.