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Author Topic: Seriously WTF  (Read 2520 times)

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Howard_Casto

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2020, 10:44:51 pm »
No it's not. 

Mike A

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2020, 10:49:50 pm »
Yes it is. Infinity +1.

yotsuya

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2020, 10:58:27 pm »
I donít think the technology currently exists that would ever make this a good idea.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

opt2not

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2020, 11:29:28 pm »
Even so, these screens arenít built to last. 5-7 years from now and heíll have to replace 1 or more of them, guaranteed. And thatís generous, depending on how heís handling heat dispersion.
How would you like to dump $500+ into your cab every mid-decade? I saw a project posted here where the guy put an lcd at the kick base. Good luck not getting that screen kicked in. :lol Yeah no thanks.

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2020, 11:46:03 pm »
Even so, these screens arenít built to last. 5-7 years from now and heíll have to replace 1 or more of them, guaranteed. And thatís generous, depending on how heís handling heat dispersion.
How would you like to dump $500+ into your cab every mid-decade? I saw a project posted here where the guy put an lcd at the kick base. Good luck not getting that screen kicked in. :lol Yeah no thanks.
If Iím not mistaken, this was for sale. Itís some other suckerís problem.
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fallacy

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2020, 11:13:59 am »
Lcd tec now can be super thin last forever and produces little to no heat.  Also have you seen how dirt cheap tvís are now. Sometimes I think they will just start handing out 4k 40 inch or less tvs out as door prizes.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 11:17:27 am by fallacy »

Mike A

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2020, 11:21:35 am »
LCDs that last forever? Pffft.

yotsuya

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2020, 12:20:33 pm »
OK, let me rephrase that, I donít think the technology exists in an economical and widely distributed form that would allow Joe BYOAC to be able to do this in any way that brings it justice.
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shponglefan

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2020, 12:57:19 pm »
I donít think the technology currently exists that would ever make this a good idea.

Yet.

yotsuya

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2020, 12:58:56 pm »
I donít think the technology currently exists that would ever make this a good idea.

Yet.
See above.

And even if the tech exists, itís still not a good idea. Control panels take a pounding.
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Mike A

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2020, 01:04:56 pm »
I donít think the technology currently exists that would ever make this a good idea.

Yet.
That is probably why he said "currently". :P

yotsuya

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #51 on: March 23, 2020, 01:06:11 pm »
I donít think the technology currently exists that would ever make this a good idea.

Yet.
That is probably why he said "currently". :P
Semantics, brof. ;)
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Vigo

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #52 on: March 23, 2020, 01:28:53 pm »
Might as well have those side screens just display a live feed of a webcam mounted at dick height.

yotsuya

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #53 on: March 23, 2020, 02:42:42 pm »
Might as well have those side screens just display a live feed of a webcam mounted at dick height.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

nitrogen_widget

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #54 on: March 23, 2020, 06:39:27 pm »
Even so, these screens arenít built to last. 5-7 years from now and heíll have to replace 1 or more of them, guaranteed. And thatís generous, depending on how heís handling heat dispersion.
How would you like to dump $500+ into your cab every mid-decade? I saw a project posted here where the guy put an lcd at the kick base. Good luck not getting that screen kicked in. :lol Yeah no thanks.

it looks like a 16:10 screen for the CP.
not many of those around anymore.

I've seen a Dell 15" LCD with a damn plant growing through the case that was almost 15yrs old still working.
but, most LCD monitors I have at work, the backlight craps out between 7-10yrs roughly.
we do get a few <5 yrs old that die but not too often.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 06:45:27 pm by nitrogen_widget »

Howard_Casto

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2020, 12:49:54 am »
I'm pretty sure I said "we are a few years out" from this.  You guys need to listen.  I also said it was a good idea, I didn't say to use the same methods, which is why I said "if implemented properly".... lcds wouldn't be used... it'd be a combination of rear projection for the control panel, which would have to be at least .5 inch lexan to make it sturdy enough or potentially a custom cut oled film, and oled side art.  Diffusion films could be used to stop the light and keep with from becoming an electric nightmare in terms of distracting brightness.  Right now all that stuff is crazy expensive, but think how quickly the price on lcds have went down.  Within our lifetime we are going to see something similar to this, perhaps on a commercial cabinet. 

yotsuya

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2020, 11:12:57 am »
I'm pretty sure I said "we are a few years out" from this.  You guys need to listen.  I also said it was a good idea, I didn't say to use the same methods, which is why I said "if implemented properly".... lcds wouldn't be used... it'd be a combination of rear projection for the control panel, which would have to be at least .5 inch lexan to make it sturdy enough or potentially a custom cut oled film, and oled side art.  Diffusion films could be used to stop the light and keep with from becoming an electric nightmare in terms of distracting brightness.  Right now all that stuff is crazy expensive, but think how quickly the price on lcds have went down.  Within our lifetime we are going to see something similar to this, perhaps on a commercial cabinet.
I doubt it, commercial cabs generally only play one game at a time and donít need dynamic control panels.

Youíve seen the underside of a control panel - I donít think projecting anything up under there would ever look right.

I mean, is it an interesting idea? Sure. Is it feasible for Joe BYOAC? Probably not.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

DaOld Man

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #57 on: March 28, 2020, 07:46:49 pm »
I am in no way defending this project, however, would it be possible to use a projector mounted somewhere above the marquee, shining down onto the CP and making such images?
I know joystick and player hand shadows would probably look like cat feces on a hot tin roof.

yotsuya

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2020, 09:58:55 pm »
I am in no way defending this project, however, would it be possible to use a projector mounted somewhere above the marquee, shining down onto the CP and making such images?
I know joystick and player hand shadows would probably look like cat feces on a hot tin roof.
Yeah, that would be even worse. :)
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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2020, 02:46:35 pm »
I don't feel the dynamic CP works unless the control layout is the same for all the games in a cab.
I guess if you created custom CP's to work around your custom controls it could work.

but the way it's done here with drywall screws sticking out of the plexi? no.

maybe a 1/2" frosted acrylic CP, (like how old projection TV screens) and a cheap projector could do it. no idea how it would look close up though.
You will probably need to stick the projector on the floor at the back of the cab and a front surface mirror on the floor at the front at a 45 degree angle to get the proper throw distance.


Howard_Casto

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #60 on: March 29, 2020, 03:59:01 pm »
Yes I'm not suggesting a franken panel.  Like you could do a beat em up cab styled after the konami cabs.... then all the dynamic art, side art, ect would line up and just work because the physical dimensions are the same.  The projection thing isn't super hard.... they make rear projection films where it "just stops" the light from going every where and only displays the image.  You might also need two projectors at opposite angles above the below the center of the control panel.  You'd still see the square joystick base, but the dust cover covers most of that up anyway.  Buttons and spinners have a slim profile so it'd be possible, with careful positioning of the switches, to get near perfect results around them.  Trackballs or more obscure controls would probably be out... although that one 3d printed low profile trackball is still out there. 

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #61 on: March 29, 2020, 04:22:59 pm »
Why don't you just use like 6 projectors. You could wear one on your head.

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #62 on: March 29, 2020, 07:13:06 pm »
Just put an x arcade on your lap and slap on a VR headset.

 :dunno
This forum needs more threads about Arcade 1Up cabinets.

Howard_Casto

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #63 on: March 29, 2020, 10:38:10 pm »
VR still has a way to go... as-is I'd probably get a headache or throw up before I made it through Turtles in Time.  Eventually that might be the way we all do it though. 

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2020, 10:59:14 am »
I prefer setting an Xbox One controller on top of a non-functional control panel and using it to play games.

Also there is no arcade monitor in the cab, just a laptop sitting on the monitor shelf but don't worry I have plans to finish it someday. For now this works.

RandyT

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2020, 03:19:39 pm »
Just put an x arcade on your lap and slap on a VR headset.

VR still has a way to go... as-is I'd probably get a headache or throw up before I made it through Turtles in Time.  Eventually that might be the way we all do it though. 

Howard, there are actually good VR headsets out there, which have high framerates and good optics.  I'm with Jim on this one, except I would go for pedestal panel of some sort.

The old arcade titles have a distinct advantage in VR...they are almost all low-native-resolution games.  At a reasonable virtual playing distance, there's a pretty good chance the games won't suffer too badly, if at all.  The fact that you can have a whole virtual arcade, with different machines, side art, marquees etc... makes this a pretty interesting alternative to plastering LCDs all over the machine. 

I was about to write that the only thing missing was a good VR front-end...then Google brought this up in about 2 seconds.  Pretty impressive looking software, and the price seems reasonable (if you don't count the $1200 in the PC and VR gear :) )

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2020, 09:44:14 pm »
Yeah I've tried the higher end headsets and they still aren't there yet.  Some people are sensitive to the disconnect between what their senses are tell them and what their eyes are telling them and some aren't.  I can enjoy VR but only in shorter bursts because I am acutely aware that my head isn't where it looks like it is when doing certain movements.   About an hour is my limit.  Any arcade cabinet that gives you headaches and eyestrain isn't preferable.  I played the sega classics collection on my cheapo vr headset as well for the pc and it's actually ok, but again I have the time limit problem. 

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #67 on: March 31, 2020, 01:42:51 pm »
Yeah I've tried the higher end headsets and they still aren't there yet.  Some people are sensitive to the disconnect between what their senses are tell them and what their eyes are telling them and some aren't.

The only disconnect you should be sensing, is when you look at the virtual control panel and see that the controls probably aren't where the actual ones are.  Not sure what other senses you might be referring to, as everything in the visual should be relative.  Again, a good VR headset doesn't experience positional drift or anything like that.

There are a few factors which can cause some folks issues, the condition of  their eyes being one of them, but a blanket statement that VR isn't there yet, at least for the majority in this context, is a little bit of a stretch.  FWIW, VR pinball with such a panel setup is leagues beyond the flat-screen experience.  You can't get closer to the real deal without an actual machine.  This shouldn't be much different.

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #68 on: March 31, 2020, 02:50:41 pm »

There are a few factors which can cause some folks issues, the condition of  their eyes being one of them, but a blanket statement that VR isn't there yet, at least for the majority in this context, is a little bit of a stretch. 

No it really isn't.  I've told all of you guys a million times... vr is a niche market.  It isn't mainstream and it probably never will be.  Over 40% of the population have eye conditions that don't even allow them to properly view stereoscopic 3d.  I'd call that a bit more than a few people. I'm sensitive to the delay between when you start moving your head and when the screen moves.  We are probably talking a few milliseconds here, but in real life the delay is zero.  My internal sense of balance is also effected. 

shponglefan

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #69 on: March 31, 2020, 04:49:43 pm »
Over 40% of the population have eye conditions that don't even allow them to properly view stereoscopic 3d.  I'd call that a bit more than a few people.

Where did you hear that it's 40%?  I've never heard of that before.

I have heard of cases where people who have trouble with depth perception in real life actually being able to see in 3D in VR (due to the lenses).

Quote
I'm sensitive to the delay between when you start moving your head and when the screen moves.  We are probably talking a few milliseconds here, but in real life the delay is zero.  My internal sense of balance is also effected.

Out of curiosity, which headsets have you tried? I know that some tracking systems are better than others; people have reported issues depending on the headset or tracking solution used.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 04:14:47 am by shponglefan »

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #70 on: March 31, 2020, 05:40:21 pm »
Where did you hear that?  I've never heard of that before.

Neither have I. Then again the Internet is rife with nonsense that exists solely to justify resistance to new display technology. See: Numerous ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- charts illustrating 1080p/4K is not noticable unless you are x and y, baseless claims that humans can't see more than 60 fps, etc.

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2020, 02:29:37 pm »
No it really isn't.  I've told all of you guys a million times... vr is a niche market.  It isn't mainstream and it probably never will be.  Over 40% of the population have eye conditions that don't even allow them to properly view stereoscopic 3d.  I'd call that a bit more than a few people. I'm sensitive to the delay between when you start moving your head and when the screen moves.  We are probably talking a few milliseconds here, but in real life the delay is zero.  My internal sense of balance is also effected. 

I'm really trying not to get into a "dogpile" at your expense, but you make it difficult sometimes :)  It's not mainstream because it costs too much.  Plain and simple.  Eye conditions don't prevent people from seeing stereoscopic 3D (unless one or both eyes aren't working), rather something in their brain would be rejecting it for whatever reason, and I highly doubt that 40% would be suffering from it.  Reality is, after all, stereoscopic (because you have two eyes.)  Being unable to perceive depth would make for a pretty harrowing disability, and those with such an affliction, certainly shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car.  The same visual cues which allow for it in RL are used in VR, so what works in one should work in the other.

$30 Walmart toys connected to a "potato" of a computer, or lenses in a piece of cardboard give you nothing more than a taste of what is possible, along with a lot of the undesirable stuff brought about by low cost shortcuts.  They are in no way reflective of the state of the technology.  This isn't being "elitist", it's just a fact.  Again, especially in this context, the technology is more than "there", but the cost is still quite high.  The commercial stuff is better (I'm told), but the price is out of reach for most enthusiasts.  Sony (and maybe MS, who knows) are gearing up for it in a big way with the next console, and decent tech has come down in price.  My prediction is that you will see many more VR users very soon.

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2020, 12:07:16 am »
I was about to write that the only thing missing was a good VR front-end...then Google brought this up in about 2 seconds.  Pretty impressive looking software, and the price seems reasonable (if you don't count the $1200 in the PC and VR gear :) )

Thanks for the link! It never occur to me how PERFECT light gun games could be in VR with actual roms. A MUST try!

ps. WMR which is quite decent (especially Samsung Odyssey+) can be had used from as low as $100 to only $225 brand new for the mentioned O+ just recently on Amazon! If you already have gaming class PC, the cost becomes a moot point.

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Re: Seriously WTF
« Reply #73 on: April 24, 2020, 11:55:32 pm »
A little late to the party but two things

The WTF cab:  yeah this is taking the LCD Marquee idea but to the next level. Only the next level is many years away. I don't doubt somedays we will be able to have screens with holes, are super durable, no heat and flexible.  Until that day, skip any thought of this

Howard:  What high end have you tried. Specifically, have you tried the Valve Index running at 120hz or 144hz?  most people can't see the difference but those like you who have issues maybe can.  If you haven't tried the Valve Index at the high end refresh rate than I'd challenge that you've tried a high end headset.  I love my Valve Index and I also love my Rift S, but the Rift S runs at 80hz, pretty ok for me but I could appreciate people having issues with the Rift S.  Secondly a friend has a Valve index but his PC isn't cutting it IMHO so there is more reprojection going on than there should. So yeah he's got a high end headset but it's not running high end, so if he's running at 90hz, he's really running at 45hz. This is something I saw at one of the VR Arcades, they were running Valve Pro's and you can TELL there was reprojection going on so I could handle it but it was noticeable! 

Anyway just wondering the high ends you've tried, was everything working ok?  Who knows?  Finally, it's something that's been discussed in the VR thread but some people just cannot handle any artificial locomotion so anyone playing those no matter what headset or specs, if you are moving in the game but you are not in real life, quite a few people can't handle it.  This isn't much different than those who get motion sickness from riding in a car.  You are right that there is a segment that can't handle VR, though I'd challenge any percentages.  In saying that, there are some that can't play FPS games either yet that segment of games is still well represented.