big arcade project

[i_thght_u_knu]

Wondering if anyone can help? I am trying to make ultimate 4 player arcade. I do not even know if it's possible for everything to work. Trying to get
flight joystick with button on top, spinner, trackball, (2) 8 way auto switchable to 4 way/2 way, (2) regular 8 way, and 2 usb laser guns. I really do not know where to start (getting all parts), what is needed (electrical components), or the best route to take (cheap vs best)?

[PL1]

Wondering if anyone can help? I am trying to make ultimate 4 player arcade.

This question comes up often.         

At best, the underlying assumption that it is possible to make an ultimate 4 player setup that plays all games well is a guaranteed path to mediocre results disappointment.

The odds of success are roughly the same as being struck by lightning while you're wielding a chainsaw to defend yourself during a Sharknado.   

Before you go any further, go to the wiki (link above) and carefully read the FAQ, especially the "What type of build meets my needs?" section.

If you answer "all of them" to #2 and #4 in that section, the design will involve so many compromises and convolutions that you will end up with a "jack of all trades, master of none" setup often referred to as a "Frankenpanel."   

If you don't trim the the game list, you will spend a crapload of time scrolling through eleventy-billion "coal" games trying to find a "diamond" instead of spending that time playing great games from a reasonable-length list composed of your favorites, true classics, and several hidden gems.

The "All Killer, No Filler" lists are great examples of dumping the coal and keeping the gems.


Scott
EDIT: Mimic is correct that you can build a setup that works well for many, if not most games, however no single setup will work for all games.
Trying to support too many games can lead to a Frankenpanel because there are many oddball game controls like Thayer's Quest keypad, Mahjongg buttons, 270+360 steering wheels, shifters, etc.

[mimic]

This question comes up often.         

So what it comes up often? Step aside and let others help him. The locals that dwell here are so jaded!

At best, the underlying assumption that it is possible to make an ultimate 4 player setup that plays all games well is a guaranteed path to mediocre results.


If you answer "all of them" to #2 and #4 in that section, the design will involve so many compromises and convolutions that you will end up with a "jack of all trades, master of none" setup often referred to as a "Frankenpanel."   

If you don't trim the the game list, you will spend a crapload of time scrolling through eleventy-billion "coal" games trying to find a "diamond" instead of spending that time playing great games from a reasonable-length list composed of your favorites, true classics, and several hidden gems.

The "All Killer, No Filler" lists are great examples of dumping the coal and keeping the gems.


Scott

I'll dare to say I have achieved Jack of all trades and actually master of at least few. Although it was quickly ridiculed.
I don't know why but it seems as on these forums gaming is secondary to most awesome looks. Majority claims they LOVED the building and gaming became secondary.... ---fudgesicle--- THAT! I HATED every minute of building that was getting in my gaming time. I PLAY video games not just look at my cabinet.

@i_thght_u_knu you go right ahead and enjoy the best 4 player cab you can possibly make! ENJOY ALL the games you dream of playing.

One of these games if I'll be able to pick a game in the BYOAC competition I'll pick  Centipede just to spite all the "purists" We'll see how they play that classic.

[PL1]

Step aside and let others help him.

Nobody else was helping him.   

- Pointing out that there's no single controls setup that plays all games well isn't helpful?

- Pointing him to the design process outlined in the FAQ isn't helpful?

- Pointing out that a game list with "all of them" often means having to scroll through hundreds of games that he doesn't care about to find one he wants to play isn't helpful?

IMHO it's a good idea for people to think through what they really want before investing too much time, effort, and/or money in a project.

Different people ==> different objectives ==> different needs ==> different builds.

It's not about what I want or like, it's about helping him to set realistic expectations and figure out what combination of game list, controls, and build-style best meets his wants and needs.   

I'll dare to say I have achieved Jack of all trades and actually master of at least few.

In all seriousness, if anyone can pull that off, it will be an experienced guy like you.   

I'll go further and say that your setup is probably master of many, if not most games.   

That said, no setup can be master of all games.

I PLAY video games not just look at my cabinet.

I agree that the true purpose of a cab is to play games, not to look at it or be a money pit (. . . well, not too much of one  ) or endlessly scroll through a list of games that you aren't interested in.


Scott

[Mike A]

One of these games if I'll be able to pick a game in the BYOAC competition I'll pick  Centipede just to spite all the "purists" We'll see how they play that classic.

I would play it on my dedicated Centipede cabinet.

[yamatetsu]

One of these games if I'll be able to pick a game in the BYOAC competition I'll pick  Centipede just to spite all the "purists" We'll see how they play that classic.

Most likely you will piss off the few people that can be bothered to play the compo. Those people, however, are not the "purists" you want to spite.
We don't choose games that can't be played by everone. I certainly won't play any game that requires a spinner/trackball/two analog sticks/whatever.

[Locke141]

I would highly recommend just building for a short list or picking a genre of games you love and trying to build the best dam set up you can for that. You like 90's fighters, then build for 90's fighters. You really want to play all the 4 way classics, then build for that. There are options that will let you mix the two but they come at a compromise.

I built a 4way that I love but it gets 4 players rarely. I could have just built a 2 player and added to USB's for game pads or dedicated sticks and it would have been just as nice and would have taken up less room.   

[Mike A]

Yeah. Don't build a complicated CP if you ever plan on someone besides you playing it. Otherwise you are going to have to answer "What stick do I use?" or "Is this a trackball game?" or "Where is the third trackball for Rampart?" a thousand times a night.

[mimic]

Nobody else was helping him.   

You are VERY helpful. Sometimes the only guy that helped me or others.

The emoji slamming head is what rubbed me the wrong way and the discouraging tone towards "one panel fits all". I say let them! Help'em! Why not? Let them build WHATEVER they please and let them find out on their own if down the road it isn't what they want.

To me this hobby was always about playing with proper controls. That's what all these cab were all about, an unique experience. Denying yourself classics like Tempest, Missile Command, Crystal Castles, Ikari Warriors, etc... in the name of pretty, I don't know doesn't sit right with me. 

[mimic]

One of these games if I'll be able to pick a game in the BYOAC competition I'll pick  Centipede just to spite all the "purists" We'll see how they play that classic.

I would play it on my dedicated Centipede cabinet.

Must be nice to be 1%-er and afford dedicated cabinet for every game. You're what they're saying "There is an exception to every rule" was made up about
My next picks
Missile Command
Tempest
Ikari Warriors
Monkey Mole Panic

[Mike A]

Dude. Relax. It is supposed to be a friendly competition. You would be excluding everyone else. Have fun playing by yourself.

[mimic]

One of these games if I'll be able to pick a game in the BYOAC competition I'll pick  Centipede just to spite all the "purists" We'll see how they play that classic.

Most likely you will piss off the few people that can be bothered to play the compo. Those people, however, are not the "purists" you want to spite.
We don't choose games that can't be played by everone. I certainly won't play any game that requires a spinner/trackball/two analog sticks/whatever.

No worries. I am fully aware of that. I said that to make a point and get a reaction

[Mike A]

 

[Osirus23]

I'd like to help but this thread smells like a troll op.

[Howard_Casto]

Ok I've been on my best behavior lately and this question has to be troll bait so you are all going to have to give me this one.  I apologize in advance. 

[old school Howie] 

Full stop.  You don't want all that crap on your 4 player panel, hell, you don't even want a 4 player panel.  How do we know?  See that giant post count next to our names?  That means we've been doing this since the dinosaurs roamed the earth.  We've seen it all.... we know better than you.  So believe us or the guy with 8 posts next to his name, it's up to you.  You want to waste time and money creating something that you won't like that's your business.  What you actually want though is a standard 2 player layout with 4 - 8 buttons per player (4 if you like classics, 6 if you like fighting games and 8 if you want to play modern fighting games).  If you are very clever with your layout you *might* be able to squeeze in a trackball or a spinner, not both though and they do NOT require their own dedicated buttons, nor do you need 80 admin buttons.  The max you need is two... one for exiting the game and one to bring up the menu.  Honestly though with shifted key support on modern encoders you don't even need that.

Oh and before it comes up in your reply, no, you do NOT want to play console games on your cabinet so there's no point to adding extra controls for those.  Console games are usually designed for long play sessions sitting on a couch and just aren't fun to play on a cab or have a superior arcade version available.  The few the do work are going to be playable on a standard layout.  Pro tip:  If they weren't going to work with the standard layout then they wouldn't be fun on the cab anyway.

[/old school Howie]

[KenToad]

I made a 4 player pedestal with dual spinners and a trackball. It's an aircraft carrier design, with the protruding part equal in width to a pinball machine, so I can play visual pinball. I wouldn't put a flight stick on there, but that's just me. I have years of messing around with arcade controls and I know what I want to play. Spinners were a priority pretty much because of Puzz Loop, Tempest, and some Arkanoid style games. I wanted a trackball basically just because of World Class Bowling, Centipede, and Golden Tee. I have 6 buttons on player 1 and 2 because of fighters.

Basically, I'll just echo other people's advice and say: figure out the games you want to play first. Crazy frankenpanels have been a part of BYOAC since the early days. Do your research in the project announcements section.

I made a bartop back in the day with modular control panels. I actually cannibalized the sticks and buttons from my old modular panels to make my pedestal, because the modular design was a pain to store and manage, although it worked well.

[PL1]

You are VERY helpful. Sometimes the only guy that helped me or others.

Always glad to assist.   

The emoji slamming head is what rubbed me the wrong way

Yeah, that was in anticipation of the repetition of the same old predictable replies and arguments seen in earlier threads like this, rather than OP's question.

and the discouraging tone towards "one panel fits all".

Telling someone that there is no single panel setup that will support every game in MAME isn't discouraging them, it is informing them of an undeniably true fact.

The question is not IF there will be unplayable games.

The question is WHICH games will be unplayable, and whether any of those games are on OP's "gotta have it" list.

A versatile panel is a good thing, as long as it is ergonomic and understandable.

I say let them! Help'em! Why not? Let them build WHATEVER they please and let them find out on their own if down the road it isn't what they want.

So . . . OP should build first and maybe consider reading about the design process later?      

If he hasn't done enough research, how would he even know the questions that will help him figure out what he actually wants?

The design process in the FAQ doesn't tell people what to build, it asks questions that help them decide what type of build meets their wants and needs.


Scott

[mimic]

@PL1
I don't want to argue, don't want to be accused of trolling, etc. I could respond to each of the points you presenting, or maybe I'm overreacting. I'd rather spend my energy on gaming.
I saw this: New guy just signed up, his first post, looking for advise and he is presented with the emoji's slamming the wall, puking and sarcastic analogy to Sharknado. Yes there were very good advises regarding where to look and what to do, but that wasn't the best welcoming committee's effort. That's all. It can be done in more civilized manner I'd think. Once he is part of the community roll out the jokes, no?

[jennifer]

Those headbangs, And Sharknados were funny because it's been covered before, even your thread (mimic) would be a good platform on the subject of research and views of others opinions.  PL1 made some valid points that was IMO not just regurgitated,  but born of informed opininion ...As for building a cab, making 1 that plays everything is not really saving any time, or money and only serves to confuse the player on a machine you can't sell (legally)...So what is even your point?...Playing games?...Go buy a Arcade 1,

[Mike A]

When someone has an idea that we know is doomed to failure it is not mean spirited or unwelcoming to tell them it is a bad idea. Especially when someone can easily look up this exact topic before posting. It comes up every week.

[mimic]

Those headbangs, And Sharknados were funny because it's been covered before, even your thread (mimic) would be a good platform on the subject of research and views of others opinions.  PL1 made some valid points that was IMO not just regurgitated,  but born of informed opininion ...As for building a cab, making 1 that plays everything is not really saving any time, or money and only serves to confuse the player on a machine you can't sell (legally)...So what is even your point?...Playing games?...Go buy a Arcade 1,

Your whole post confused the hell out of me. I read it and re-read it and I'm still not sure what are you trying to say. Perhaps not being native English speaker I'm not picking up on something?

even your thread (mimic) would be a good platform on the subject of research and views of others opinions.

What are you referring to? The "Ultimate Frankenpanel" thread? I'm not sure if you saw it before I removed it, but I have never asked for any opinion or views regarding what I wanted. I built EXACTLY what I wanted and I love it.

PL1 made some valid points that was IMO not just regurgitated,  but born of informed opininion

I don't think I'm disputing it. I'm just saying brand new user seemed like (to me) opinions dumped on him in rather harsh way (at least that's how I perceived it. Did he? We'll see I guess)

...As for building a cab, making 1 that plays everything is not really saving any time, or money and only serves to confuse the player on a machine you can't sell (legally)...So what is even your point?...Playing games?...Go buy a Arcade 1,

I am really, truly confused with this statement...... I thought the point IS to play games that you like and remember with the unique controllers they were outfitted with like joysticks, trackballs, spinners, rollers, light guns, steering wheels, etc. I... don't... believe... that Arcade 1 offers any of that? Isn't why we build our own? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. 

When someone has an idea that we know is doomed to failure it is not mean spirited or unwelcoming to tell them it is a bad idea. Especially when someone can easily look up this exact topic before posting. It comes up every week.

As I said above to me it came off that way. Maybe I'm too sensitive? Only he can answer if that was something he was expecting or not. And as I said in the past I use forums for tailored answers so I understand why he would do that. It's not like copper wiring is being degraded because too many bytes were sent, we don't chop trees here to make paper really. With searches and multitude of answers you won't get clarity a lot of the time, it probably can be more confusing to some.

[Mike A]

Yes. You are too sensitive.

A couple people didn't like your cab and you nuked all of the pictures.

You called me a 1 percenter. I laughed so hard my monocle fell out.

Don't worry so much about what other people think. Post your pics.

[Mr. Peabody]

The search function, however impaired, can get someone quite far. Looking around the forum can as well. Newbs used to do these things. Now they regard other members as their information machines.

[mimic]

Yes. You are too sensitive.

Then I suppose I am!

A couple people didn't like your cab and you nuked all of the pictures.

I originally said I am too sensitive!

You called me a 1 percenter. I laughed so hard my monocle fell out.

I knew someone will come up with "I've got the original" So I prodded you a little bit how special of you.

Don't worry so much about what other people think. Post your pics.

Finding my cab on CrapMAME would bum me out, so I don't think it's ever coming back.

The search function, however impaired, can get someone quite far. Looking around the forum can as well. Newbs used to do these things. Now they regard other members as their information machines.

As I mentioned above. Step aside. Don't bother ever replying. Let others and if he doesn't receive any answers he will have no other choice.

[jennifer]

Those headbangs, And Sharknados were funny because it's been covered before, even your thread (mimic) would be a good platform on the subject of research and views of others opinions.  PL1 made some valid points that was IMO not just regurgitated,  but born of informed opininion ...As for building a cab, making 1 that plays everything is not really saving any time, or money and only serves to confuse the player on a machine you can't sell (legally)...So what is even your point?...Playing games?...Go buy a Arcade 1,

Your whole post confused the hell out of me. I read it and re-read it and I'm still not sure what are you trying to say. Perhaps not being native English speaker I'm not picking up on something?

even your thread (mimic) would be a good platform on the subject of research and views of others opinions.

What are you referring to? The "Ultimate Frankenpanel" thread? I'm not sure if you saw it before I removed it, but I have never asked for any opinion or views regarding what I wanted. I built EXACTLY what I wanted and I love it.

PL1 made some valid points that was IMO not just regurgitated,  but born of informed opininion

I don't think I'm disputing it. I'm just saying brand new user seemed like (to me) opinions dumped on him in rather harsh way (at least that's how I perceived it. Did he? We'll see I guess)

...As for building a cab, making 1 that plays everything is not really saving any time, or money and only serves to confuse the player on a machine you can't sell (legally)...So what is even your point?...Playing games?...Go buy a Arcade 1,

I am really, truly confused with this statement...... I thought the point IS to play games that you like and remember with the unique controllers they were outfitted with like joysticks, trackballs, spinners, rollers, light guns, steering wheels, etc. I... don't... believe... that Arcade 1 offers any of that? Isn't why we build our own? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. 

When someone has an idea that we know is doomed to failure it is not mean spirited or unwelcoming to tell them it is a bad idea. Especially when someone can easily look up this exact topic before posting. It comes up every week.

As I said above to me it came off that way. Maybe I'm too sensitive? Only he can answer if that was something he was expecting or not. And as I said in the past I use forums for tailored answers so I understand why he would do that. It's not like copper wiring is being degraded because too many bytes were sent, we don't chop trees here to make paper really. With searches and multitude of answers you won't get clarity a lot of the time, it probably can be more confusing to some.

Well I guess Jenn will have to type really slowly then so perhaps you may understand...Sarcasm. ..Your thread, or your magical awesome Franken panel are of no use to the OP...Again very slowly...Your not helping him at all in terms if build ideas or actual construction practices...BECAUSE, as you stated you don't even like to build your own, just want sit around and play your dream boat cab one would take from that...Sharknados Is just funny, That was a colorful joke, designed to make you laugh, If you are so awesome you can chainsaw a flying shark, well good for you, and the humor is just lost on you...And finally...(again really slowwwww).. Arcade1ups are in desperate need of your do everything cab, so please mister please put some some stupid giant "deck" on one, bolt a popcorn maker to it and then go start a three day game playing binge with your friends and anyone else who will even care...Hope you got it that time, cause, If I got to dumb it down anymore, we will have to continue this conversation over in post hell.

[mimic]

Well I guess Jenn will have to type really slowly then so perhaps you may understand...

Awhile back I thought every time you refer to yourself in 3rd person that indicates some kind of deeper mental disorder, but now on top of that you've demonstrated that you're quite the condescending ---uvula---. I was trying to deescalate the whole thing, but you have the need to crank it right back up with personal attacks.

Your thread, or your magical awesome Franken panel are of no use to the OP...

First of all my "magical awesome frankenpanel" Has ZERO to do with anything. I used it as an example of people wanting to do what they want to do and be happy with it.

.Your not helping him at all in terms if build ideas or actual construction practices...BECAUSE, as you stated you don't even like to build your own, just want sit around and play your dream boat cab one would take from that...

Indeed I am NOT helping him because of people like YOU that have SUCH strong opinions on what people should or should not do with their time and money that it seems as is no longer a suggestion but a requirement or you're going to be ridiculed.

that...Sharknados Is just funny, That was a colorful joke, designed to make you laugh, If you are so awesome you can chainsaw a flying shark, well good for you, and the humor is just lost on you...

As to the flying sharknado you seem to fail to grasp with your pea brain that is in the context to a NEW user (not me!), who didn't show up since, perhaps because he was so "warmly" welcomed here. (remain to be seen)

Arcade1ups are in desperate need of your do everything cab, so please mister please put some some stupid giant "deck" on one, bolt a popcorn maker to it and then go start a three day game playing binge with your friends and anyone else who will even care...Hope you got it that time, cause, If I got to dumb it down anymore, we will have to continue this conversation over in post hell.

As to your last point regarding arcade 1up ---fudgesicle--- you and your idea as to who should build what and how. Please go ahead and show me official rules to building your Arcade cabinet.... what? Hello? NOTHING of the sort... right....
Congratulations You're a self proclaimed elitist ---uvula--- of nothing special really....

[Mike A]

I think Jennifer is hilarious. She has let me have it before. Put on your big boy pants. I don't think you are ready for the internet.

[mimic]

I think Jennifer is hilarious. She has let me have it before. Put on your big boy pants. I don't think you are ready for the internet.

No, why should I take her condescending tone? Of course you're in her camp, after all you're Card carrying purist! Heck maybe it's your wife? You sound very much alike. Sorry got only diaper and access to free internet. You'll have to get used to it.

[Mike A]

My wife died in 2015.

People offered solid advice to start this thread and you turned it into a circus. Grow up.

[mimic]

My wife died in 2015.

People offered solid advice to start this thread and you turned it into a circus. Grow up.

Sorry for your loss

Some people did offer solid advice (PL1 mostly), most went onto justification as to why he should not want what he wants. As I mentioned before it was the way they did it that bothered me to a brand new user that we still have to hear back from.
I don't understand why should I grow up while others can run amok on their high-horses?

[Mike A]

You derailed the thread. He won't be back.

[mimic]

You derailed the thread. He won't be back.

That's a "nice" spin. Perhaps it was all me or perhaps it was the first 3 negative lines from PL1? If he's not back I guess we shall never find out.

[Mike A]

It was definitely you. PL1 offered solid advice and you went mental. You made the whole thing about you.

I'll dare to say I have achieved Jack of all trades and actually master of at least few. Although it was quickly ridiculed.
I don't know why but it seems as on these forums gaming is secondary to most awesome looks. Majority claims they LOVED the building and gaming became secondary.... ---fudgesicle--- THAT! I HATED every minute of building that was getting in my gaming time. I PLAY video games not just look at my cabinet.

@i_thght_u_knu you go right ahead and enjoy the best 4 player cab you can possibly make! ENJOY ALL the games you dream of playing.

One of these games if I'll be able to pick a game in the BYOAC competition I'll pick  Centipede just to spite all the "purists" We'll see how they play that classic.

This is not spin. People didn't like your cab so now you are on some kind of mission. Let it go.

[mimic]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion just like I am. Here I'm letting it go. You won't hear from me again (and I promise, my cab had absolutely NOTHING to do with it. I have always been of opinion to do whatever someone pleases, pure coincidence with my cab being at the same time, nothing else.) Done. No more on the subject no matter how tempted I'll be.

[yotsuya]

Scott? Cleanup on aisle 5, please.

[opt2not]

I don't know why but it seems as on these forums gaming is secondary to most awesome looks. Majority claims they LOVED the building and gaming became secondary.... ---fudgesicle--- THAT! I HATED every minute of building that was getting in my gaming time. I PLAY video games not just look at my cabinet.

   You've got it all twisted man.

We give advice on the play-ability factor.  Play-ability in arcades means not only having the proper controls, but also being able to perform on those controls, unencumbered.
Frankenpanels are fine for sampling a lot of games, but they're not great for prolonged play, and most of the time there is some compromise in controls or how they're connected, but MOST importantly:  comfort level in play.

Were you the one who posted that frankenpanel and told people that you didn't want their comments and opinions?  If so, I'm glad you pulled the pics.  I mean, there's no point in posting something on a public forum if you didn't want people to post about it. Also, you came off as some kind of dictator of the forum, saying that you don't want people to post x and y.  F that, you don't get to tell me how and when to post. You don't like it? Don't open yourself up for comments and opinions then.

[Osirus23]

My first panel was some frankenshit. 2 player with 8-way joysticks and 6 buttons per-player and a Trackball in the middle with 2 buttons of its own for mouse actions. I'm not ashamed.

[jennifer]

Hold on there pal (Mimic)... I did not even get a chance to give the OP any advice,  can't  even seem to get past your lack of understanding...The sarcastic point of this (and some here got it) is your Nuked thread, that you even today hold ransom over others as some kind of attempt to prove some kind of greatness. But apariently you can't be bothered with details because you just like playing the games and have virtually nothing to offer as far as building pratices go, Someone else may want to build one too, I personally got nothing against Franken panels, some of them as a build are really awesome, Impactical? Yes, but probibally the most creative part of any Mame cab. However little possible return of investment and again impractical...As for personal attacks... Dream on cream puff, Jenni only does that for her friends, and noobs with potential.

[Ond]

I love BYOAC.  I mean it.  Threads like this used to bug me.  Not anymore. I wonder what changed.  I'm just too damn fond of you dudes I guess.

Single post OP has run to the hills to a safe distance to watch the shitstorm and fireworks he set off with the classic "I want to build a 'plays everything ultimate machine".

I think it's quite natural to want to build a 'plays everything ultimate machine'.  I wanted to, many here probably thought about it when they first got into the hobby.  It's misguided and naive, we know, but really common.  Frankenpanel, big boy pants    are some of my favourite expressions.

The vocal crowd here keep BYOAC going.  Swap the word "elitist" for "experienced" and join the gang.  They ARE good people,  I know, I've met quite a few of them in person.  It's just video games, nothing to get enraged about.

*Ond slips on his big boy pants and goes off to Crapmame to get some perspective (and laffs).*

[Howard_Casto]

Don't forget aircraft carrier and coffee table control panels... those are my personal favs.  It's nice to know that if I have a heart attack and keel over or something Mike is still here to fight the good fight.  It is a good fight btw.  At the end of the day we just want you to be happy with what you build, because if you are happy then you are more likely to stick around... if your first cab is too much of a disaster, on the other hand, it might turn you away from the hobby permanently.  Like I said, listen to the people who've been there and done that, or don't... it's ultimately up to you, but the consensus seems to be that what you want on a panel isn't going to end well.