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Author Topic: CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?  (Read 1314 times)

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s8n187

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CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?
« on: November 23, 2018, 08:36:43 am »
hi members ,  i am having trouble figuring out if CRT Emu Driver can work with a Radeon RX 550.  Anyone have that setup or knows if they work fine together ?

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Arroyo

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Re: CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2018, 10:32:53 am »
hi members ,  i am having trouble figuring out if CRT Emu Driver can work with a Radeon RX 550.  Anyone have that setup or knows if they work fine together ?

chat soon

I believe that the Radeon R9 was the last model to offer analog output via DVI-I and or D-Sub.

Iíd check to make sure it has one of the above connections if you want to maintain an analog signal.  Otherwise you would have to get a digital to analog converter which would introduce lag and other undesirables.

s8n187

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Re: CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2018, 10:55:53 am »
it has DVI-D as it is mentioned on Newegg and Sapphires website ,  i'll have to find an alternative as a quick google says DVI-D can't do VGA Analogue. 

thanks for the tips Arroyo
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 11:25:28 am by s8n187 »

Arroyo

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Re: CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2018, 04:11:32 pm »
it has DVI-D as it is mentioned on Newegg and Sapphires website ,  i'll have to find an alternative as a quick google says DVI-D can't do VGA Analogue. 

thanks for the tips Arroyo


This might be a good resource:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_graphics_processing_units

It has every ATI/AMD card made in chronological order.  So anything Radeon R9 or earlier should have an Analog output. 

Other thing Iíve read people posting is ideally to use the DVI-I output and get a passive DVI-I to VGA converter as the VGA (D-Sub) outputs often have a ribbon connecting that can introduce some interference.  Although Iím using one and havenít observed anything.

Paradroid

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Re: CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2018, 07:07:29 pm »
[VGA (D-Sub) outputs often have a ribbon connecting that can introduce some interference.  Although Iím using one and havenít observed anything.

I call ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- on that theory. The ribbon is typically only a few inches at most, surrounded by shielding and low voltage components.

Plus, I've never seen shielded cable between a PCB and monitor chassis in an arcade cabinet. Those cable runs can be 1 meter plus and still have no interference.



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nexusmtz

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Re: CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2018, 01:27:55 am »
[...]I've never seen shielded cable between a PCB and monitor chassis in an arcade cabinet. Those cable runs can be 1 meter plus and still have no interference.

Seems sensible that lower frequencies and higher peak-to-peak signals would be less susceptible to interference. But yeah, an inch or two at arcade frequencies shouldn't pick up much.

Zebidee

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Re: CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2018, 02:08:22 am »
I agree with Paradroid, 1 inch or so of ribbon cable from card to VGA port is not going to introduce noticable interference to your RGBs signals. Won't say no interference, but negligible. Don't forget that those same video signals are also being bounced around on the card itself as PCB traces with no shielding. To my knowledge, no-one who has raised this theory has actually been able to demonstrate that it actually causes a problem for RGBs.

This is one of the great things about RGBs - you have 4 cables/wires carrying the signal data, which means a lot of redundancy (you can get away with a lot of interference). By comparison, component has only 3 cables and each signal is worked out by reference to the others (using algebra!). All this mean that, in terms of electrical signal "bandwidth", component is only about 1/3 that of RGBs. This also means that while component is technically able to look nearly as good as RGB, any interference will be magnified as errors. Thus, interference is a big issue for component video, much less of an issue for RGBs

The reason why I went into component vs RGBs then was because it explains why some people are fastidious about interference in video signals (and also why good component video cables are usually such monstrously huge things with shielding around each of the signal cables).
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Re: CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2018, 05:16:42 am »
hi members ,  i am having trouble figuring out if CRT Emu Driver can work with a Radeon RX 550.  Anyone have that setup or knows if they work fine together ?
Answered here recently: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,158779.0.html

You'll need the upcoming new CRT_emudriver and a converter, though as Calamity says this will have to go through community trail-and-error.
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s8n187

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Re: CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2018, 09:47:19 am »
wow what a turn out in help thanks guys ,  also links given by Arroyo and schmerzkaufen are fantastic. 

buttersoft

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Re: CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2018, 05:20:37 pm »
... anything Radeon R9 or earlier should have an Analog output. 

Some of the very high end stuff doesn't. The R9 290 and 380x/390/x don't, for example. Probably best to check per-card at that level.

schmerzkaufen

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Re: CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2018, 06:04:45 pm »
Actually since I was curious I've been looking around lately and noticed several R9 380/390/x featuring DVI-I.

But compared to, say, a RX 480 or 580, the raw Hz performance, consumption, size and price parameters often aren't at the advantage of the R9 series.

If we can find well working DVI-D>VGA or HDMI>VGA adapters, the next CRT_emudriver will definitely expand the number of eligible used cards to some interesting models.
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Re: CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2018, 07:13:02 am »
IMO we shouldn't loose sight of the Ryzen motherboards that have a VGA output, for instance this one with the B450 chipset:

https://www.amazon.com/Ryzen-Gaming-Motherboard-B450M-CSM/dp/B07FKV5HWJ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1543233754&sr=8-1&keywords=b450+vga+ryzen

At least in theory, this should provide analog output natively with one of the new Ryzen 5 2400G APUs.

It's interesting how the Ryzen 5 2400G compares to the i3-8350K:

https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i3-8350K-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-2400G/3935vsm433194

The i3 performs clearly better in many areas, but the interesting point is that for less cash with the Ryzen APU you also get Vega GPU.

Not sure if it's worth, I'd like to hear your thoughts.
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Zebidee

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Re: CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2018, 08:10:07 am »
IMO we shouldn't loose sight of the Ryzen motherboards that have a VGA output, for instance this one with the B450 chipset:

At least in theory, this should provide analog output natively with one of the new Ryzen 5 2400G APUs.
...
The i3 performs clearly better in many areas, but the interesting point is that for less cash with the Ryzen APU you also get Vega GPU.

Not sure if it's worth, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Calamity, am I reading you correctly that you're saying CRT-emudriver is compatible with the onboard Vega 11 GPU?
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schmerzkaufen

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Re: CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2018, 08:29:16 am »
Of course it is interesting (for everything but modern 3D heavy PC games), and although I'm no super specialist to judge all specs I see this Vega's core clock is up there with other mid-range discrete video cards like the RX 580, which I can't find under 185~189Ä, so yeah value definitely is a strong argument.

I think we've briefly exchanged on the topic somewhere so it'll be redundant but heh; mystery remains though in regards to how much shared memory matters in general (and therefore how much you should spend on it) then for GM use specifically.

Also redundant; what also bothers me with Ryzen is that FreeSync (for those who want to keep the option) works only under rather obscure and ill-documented conditions, for instance will FS work through HDMI with that mobo and with which monitors exactly? : please publish a paper if you find the right and reliable info, because Ryzen users otherwise have to buy much more expensive mobos featuring DisplayPort if they want to be safe (add +100Ä; bye bye better value)

For that reason - I'm being paranoid here but - because I don't like their (AMD's) obscurity I can't help but worry about the actual handling of analogue/VGA too.
It'd be baffling that it wouldn't work fully as in any other discrete GPU w/ analogue out configuration, or if for whatever reason it would reject non-common/non-PC resolution modes, like it'd be a low-cost legacy, fake VGA out.
But I wouldn't rule out the scary possibility, because these days no manufacturer will care about the infinitesimal number of customers that might complain if an analogue out isn't a full-feature one.

Again, paranoid...but heh.  :scared  ;D
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Calamity

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Re: CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2018, 09:36:44 am »
Calamity, am I reading you correctly that you're saying CRT-emudriver is compatible with the onboard Vega 11 GPU?

The version I'm working with (not released yet) is based on Adrenaline 18.x so it should support Vega. However I've only tested it on older cards, because I don't have a new Vega card yet. So whether or not the new gpus are 15 kHz-compatible is still untested, although it's reasonably probable that they work.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
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CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Calamity

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Re: CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2018, 09:48:42 am »
what also bothers me with Ryzen is that FreeSync (for those who want to keep the option) works only under rather obscure and ill-documented conditions, for instance will FS work through HDMI with that mobo and with which monitors exactly?

I'd say it depends on the monitor, here's a list where the freesync enabled inputs are listed for each model:

https://www.amd.com/en/products/freesync-monitors

Quote
I don't like their (AMD's) obscurity I can't help but worry about the actual handling of analogue/VGA too.

I share your uncertainty about those analog outputs. I'm trying to persaude myself invoking Occam's razor: implementing a fallback VGA output not dependent from the main gpu would involve an additional chip (more costs/complexity). I guess someone needs to try this.

Aside that, the catch may be you need the more expensive and fast ram to fully benefit from the integrated GPU.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
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schmerzkaufen

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Re: CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2018, 10:46:37 am »
I'd say it depends on the monitor, here's a list where the freesync enabled inputs are listed for each model:

https://www.amd.com/en/products/freesync-monitors
Wow, that list wasn't nearly as detailed last time I've checked.
Guess they've finally learned from all the tears and blood on amd forums.

Now they need to same kind of list for Ryzen+mobo combos.

I share your uncertainty about those analog outputs. I'm trying to persaude myself invoking Occam's razor: implementing a fallback VGA output not dependent from the main gpu would involve an additional chip (more costs/complexity). I guess someone needs to try this.
BTW how much of this depends on AMD's design, and how much on the mobo manufacturer's choices...? *shiver*
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buttersoft

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Re: CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2018, 06:53:03 pm »
Interesting APU news. Did we ever get any confirmation that the older APU's will work to output 15kHz? I realise the driver installs, but will an onboard mobo VGA port deliver? Or is that what you meant by Vega card, Calamity?

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Re: CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2018, 06:48:06 am »
Interesting APU news. Did we ever get any confirmation that the older APU's will work to output 15kHz? I realise the driver installs, but will an onboard mobo VGA port deliver? Or is that what you meant by Vega card, Calamity?

There's some relevant information here.

So we finally have a consistent answer. New AMD gpus (same with Nvidia) don't have analog support any more. This means they don't have the actual circuits to output an analog signal, regardless of what connectors you may find on the video card.

This is not new, we all knew that. The doubt was caused by these new motherboards for Ryzen APUs that do mount a VGA connector. It turns out these motherboards also support much older APUs that included R7 graphics which did support analog output. This is because AMD decided to keep the socket compatibility for several generations of processors.

However the Ryzen APUs include Vega graphics which doesn't support analog. So what happens if you plug a monitor to the motherboards' VGA output? According to the link above, this results in no video during BIOS post but surprisingly the VGA was usable once Windows starts. This suggests there's an additional chip on the motherboard, similar to those in active HDMI->VGA adapters, that performs the conversion. Probably, the chip requires drivers that are not available during boot.

Probably these chips and their performance will vary among different vendors. Also, probably they suffer from low bandwidth limitations, same as their dongle counterparts.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
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Zebidee

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Re: CRT Emu Driver and Radeon RX 550 , works ?
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2018, 10:11:05 am »
I wonder if anybody had had a good look through the BIOS to see if there is a video VGA-default option available there.
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