Main Restorations Software Audio/Jukebox/MP3 Everything Else Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements Monitor/Video GroovyMAME Merit/JVL Touchscreen Meet Up Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing Woodworking Software Support Forums Consoles Project Arcade Reviews
Automated Projects Artwork Frontend Support Forums Pinball Forum Discussion Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board controls.dat Linux Miscellaneous Arcade Wiki Discussion Old Archives
Site News

Unread posts | New Replies | Recent posts | Rules | Chatroom | Wiki | File Repository | RSS | Submit news


  

Author Topic: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod  (Read 1248 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« on: October 17, 2018, 09:02:28 am »
I'm going to attempt a TV -> RGB mod to drive a MAME cabinet.

I'll be following the basic outline here:
https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=56155

Note: I'm not worried about audio, as I'll be running audio out from the PC to speakers, and I plan on driving this through the VGA port using CRT_EMUDriver.

Question is this:  I'm planning on wiring the R,G,B, and sync from the TV's jungle chip to a SCART connector on the back of the TV. 

If I do that, can I wire the appropriate wires from a VGA connector (VGA pins 1(R), 2(G), 3(B) and 13(sync)) to standard component cables to connect through something like this:

 

Should I just buy and hack up a SCART cable?

Should I not even bother with scart and use something like a 9-pin DIN?

I want to be able to connect and disconnect the TV easily, and want a clean, solid picture.

Thoughts?  Tips?  Encouragement/discouragement?

buttersoft

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 712
  • Is running at 15kHz
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2018, 06:58:41 pm »
Quote
Encouragement/discouragement?

Encouragement :)

If you're going to mod the TV you need to learn how to discharge and handle the tube and chassis safely, regardless of whether you intend to decase and mount it. Read or watch at least six different tutorials on that and you should be well covered.

For a dedicated GroovyMAME cab - and you want GroovyMAME with crt_emudriver - there are two ways you could go. I'd stay away from DB9, personally. If you go for a SCART socket, you can get VGA-to-SCART cables that will take composite sync. And you can simply buy SCART cables for old consoles, though you will need to break out audio somehow, from what you've said.

The other route is going  DB15HD/VGA plug. That way you can just use normal VGA cables for the PC, which are cheap and easy. That doesn't cover old consoles though, and you'd need to make a breakout for those to spit off the audio for one, so why not add VGA onto that too and just plug into the TV the same way.

R,G,B,Sync and ground are all you need. Might be easiest to wire sync to the composite video line rather than the jungle directly. If the set won't turn on in AV mode though, see if you can find which pin on the jungle the internal video sync goes to from the tuner. MarkOZLAD and Syntax on the Shmups thread are the current wizards on RGB modding, if you need help.

When it comes to picking a card for crt_emudriver and GM, i wrote out a guide to supplement the install guide Calamity made - https://www.aussiearcade.com/showthread.php/87668-A-guide-to-connecting-your-Windows-PC-to-an-SD-CRT-TV-PVM-or-Arcade-Monitor

Zebidee

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1040
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2018, 07:44:22 am »
Encouragement, definitely. I also want to do some RGB modding TVs soon.

On inputs, SCART has the advantage of dedicated audio L/R pins, and this might be important for some consoles (not really sure) or just for running mame sound through TV speakers (never really sounds as good because of interference, but maybe you can isolate the audio ground or something).

VGA is neat and easy though.

I just ordered a few of these VGA screw-terminal breakouts, which will be very convenient for doing retro-cabling:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-x-DB15-Male-D-SUB-3-Row-15Pin-VGA-Plug-Breakout-Terminal-Solderless-Connector/222636518113?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

With those I can use any old cable (shielded better for sure, but whatever cable) and just screw it in.
Check out my completed projects!


nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2018, 02:46:51 pm »
Ok everyone, thanks for the encouragement.

I'm going with scart.  I'll be buying an HD-5000 from amazon for about $30.   I bought a scart coupler with 2 female scart connectors in it off ebay for cheap, so I have 2 to work with in case I screw one up.  I got a diesel scart cable from Amazon for $6:  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01DYEN1NQ/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'll be wiring up R,G,B, Sync, and GND (because I need a 75 ohm pull down resistor to gnd for R,G,B on TV side) from VGA.

R,G,B, will go to requisite pins on jungle chip (i'll add teh 75 ohm pull down resistors and a .1uf coupling capacitor inline for each of the R,G,B lines on the scart connector on the TV side).  I'll switch in 5v high to the blanking pin on the jungle chip, and wire the sync from the vga to the composite input on the TV side.  This will all be switched so I can turn it off at will.


The following link has my plans for this... if someone wants to double-check them for me, that would be awesome: https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comments/9p96i1/getting_a_27fs100_for_rgb_mod_this_weekend_can/



Once this is done, the TV should accept a 15hkz signal from my PC using crt_emudriver without any other conversion, correct?

nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2018, 02:50:48 pm »
Also thoughts on this card?  (R7 250)

I can get an HD5000 for $35, but want somehting with a LITTLE 3d oomph for some 3d accelerated emulation.  (or should I go with a different compatible card.. suggestions?)

https://www.amazon.com/MSI-Radeon-R72402364P-Profile-PCI-Express/dp/B07D3VY8ZB/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1539888523&sr=1-2&keywords=radeon+r7

Ond

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1596
  • build something
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2018, 04:30:35 pm »
That's a great guide by buttersoft.  I'm just getting into this stuff as well.  I've taken my video feed  from a Radeon card with crt_emudriver using an HDMI to Component converter.  This works really well once I found the correct interlaced resolution from the added list. 

My problem is that I can't get this working unless I'm using extended video settings across two monitors?  If I disconnect my LCD Monitor from the setup I can't get a picture on the TV on PC boot-up that's not all messed up?

If I sort it out on my own, I'll post the answer!   ;D

Things I did to prepare for working with a TV - Learn about safely working with them as buttersoft says.

Purchased the service manual for  the TV I have 
You might think that you're scared, but you're not.  That isn't fear.  That's your sharpness.  That's your power.

buttersoft

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 712
  • Is running at 15kHz
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2018, 06:52:01 pm »
Also thoughts on this card?  (R7 250)... want somehting with a LITTLE 3d oomph for some 3d accelerated emulation.

The only drawback i can see to that R7 240 is that it only does analog video from the VGA port, and the VGA port is connected by a ribbon cable, which might get a little video noise. I haven't actually used many mid range cards like that one, but it seems to be about 4x as powerful as a 5450, and the 5450 is a little underpowered for any 3D emulation. If you want modern 3D games you need something way more powerful again.

That's a great guide by buttersoft.  I'm just getting into this stuff as well.  I've taken my video feed  from a Radeon card with crt_emudriver using an HDMI to Component converter.  This works really well once I found the correct interlaced resolution from the added list. 

My problem is that I can't get this working unless I'm using extended video settings across two monitors?  If I disconnect my LCD Monitor from the setup I can't get a picture on the TV on PC boot-up that's not all messed up?

Cheers, man, happy to help. If you have a Radeon HD 5000 series or newer setup, the EDID emulation allowed by crt_emudriver can be turned on using VMM, but it only works with your card's analog video ports, IIRC. EDID tells windows what your monitor is capable of, usually in this case that it’s a 15kHz CRT. It locks that in, and windows doesn’t need to guess or default to anything on that port. In fact it doesn't even look at what the monitor says, it just uses what you've told it to. At the moment, however, your EDID is being provided by the LCD and then perhaps by the HDMI converter alone, and I think this is the problem. HDMI was never meant to carry SD video. But it’s difficult to diagnose what’s actually going on without being there. The converter might be meant to supplement an existing monitor, not replace it. With the LCD unplugged, have you tried booting up on an HD LCD TV? That might let you find out what resolution the HDMI converter is defaulting to.

An ideal setup would use analog RGB from the video card, into a VGA-to-component converter that gives a 1:1 conversion. This will get you better video quality, and would allow you to use EDID emulation as well.

TBH questions like this are better posted in the GroovyMAME forum, that’s the crt_emudriver support forum as well :) Someone else on there might be able to shed more light.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 07:01:21 pm by buttersoft »

Zebidee

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1040
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2018, 08:33:53 pm »
I've taken my video feed  from a Radeon card with crt_emudriver using an HDMI to Component converter.  This works really well once I found the correct interlaced resolution from the added list.

OND, I'm pretty sure those HDMI-component converters just take the same video mode (eg 640x480) and scale to the same size interlaced mode in component, in which case you are losing a lot in terms of image quality, video modes etc. Everything is re-scaled/squeezed into 640x480i? The best commercially available analog RGB->component converter I currently know about is the J-ROK unit, which costs about $US80:
http://www.arcadeshop.com/i/773/rgb-to-ntsc-video-encoder-deluxe-v4.1.htm

I'm too cheap for that, so I recently (yesterday) got a pack of 20 BA7230LS ICs which can be used to create a VGA-component converter! All I need now is a component input TV <faceplant>. I'll get around to it one day, will post results when it happens.

Back to RGB modding TVs: The main idea behind RGB modding is to directly inject RGB signals into a TV that doesn't normally have RGB inputs like SCART, usually via the "Jungle" IC or the via OSD (On Screen Display). This will give you the best results possible for our CGA retrogaming. What this means is that there is a good chance you can RGB mod that component input TV!


Check out my completed projects!


Zebidee

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1040
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2018, 08:59:58 pm »
Ok everyone, thanks for the encouragement.

I'm going with scart.

Cools.

Quote
I'll be buying an HD-5000 from amazon for about $30.   I bought a scart coupler with 2 female scart connectors in it off ebay for cheap, so I have 2 to work with in case I screw one up.  I got a diesel scart cable from Amazon for $6:

That seems to be a great price for that cable! Also suggest you invest in some SCART male headers like these for making new cables:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SCART-PLUG-CONNECTOR-ASSEMBLY-SOLDER-TYPE-Packs-of-1-2-5-10-FREE-UK-DELIVERY/332710215271?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=541840263638&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Those ones come with solder "buckets" for you to solder too, but I actually prefer the SCART headers with male spade ends as you can attach female 3mm crimps to your wires and connect very neatly by just sliding them on (no soldering!). I've made dozens of VGA-SCART cables before and the headers with spade connectors are definitely the easiest/neatest to use... (did I mention NO SOLDERING required?)

Quote
I'll be wiring up R,G,B, Sync, and GND (because I need a 75 ohm pull down resistor to gnd for R,G,B on TV side) from VGA.

R,G,B, will go to requisite pins on jungle chip (i'll add teh 75 ohm pull down resistors and a .1uf coupling capacitor inline for each of the R,G,B lines on the scart connector on the TV side).  I'll switch in 5v high to the blanking pin on the jungle chip, and wire the sync from the vga to the composite input on the TV side.  This will all be switched so I can turn it off at will.

iirc the actual choice of capacitor may depend on your particular TV, you may need to experiment a little.

Quote
Once this is done, the TV should accept a 15hkz signal from my PC using crt_emudriver without any other conversion, correct?

Let's see how we go first, but you're definitely on the right track :D
Check out my completed projects!


nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2018, 09:49:33 pm »
Thanks for all the info guys.  Iím actually excited about a project for the first tine in a long time.

I do have a very newbie question.  I read about the hd5000 series+ being Ďsaferí for crt_emudriver.  What does that mean exactly?  I am ordering an R7, but I have a hd4350 in hand.  Is there any Ďdangerí in using that to test the RGB mod initially?  I know he second I have this CRT Iím going to want to mod and test it.

Ond

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1596
  • build something
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2018, 09:59:28 pm »
Also thanks from me, I went with a cheap HDMI to component converter because my Radeon card only had HDMI out.  That said, there are plenty of cheap used cards with a VGA port so I'll look for one of them to go with a VGA-to-component converter.   :cheers:
You might think that you're scared, but you're not.  That isn't fear.  That's your sharpness.  That's your power.

buttersoft

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 712
  • Is running at 15kHz
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2018, 10:05:15 pm »
Thanks for all the info guys.  Iím actually excited about a project for the first tine in a long time.

I do have a very newbie question.  I read about the hd5000 series+ being Ďsaferí for crt_emudriver.  What does that mean exactly?  I am ordering an R7, but I have a hd4350 in hand.  Is there any Ďdangerí in using that to test the RGB mod initially?  I know he second I have this CRT Iím going to want to mod and test it.

See my post above about EDID emulation. This can only be enabled using crt_emudriver 2.0 on a Radeon HD 5000 card or newer, or newer APU. It doesn't work on Radeon HD 2000, 3000 or 4000 series cards.

The 4350 should be fine to pay with, to test things out. Just make sure you have a way to go back or a killswitch handy. It doesn't really hurt to feed an out-of-range signal to your monitor for short periods during testing, and anyway it might work fine.  But long term you're guaranteed to get problems somewhere, and the more you play around the more likely that is.

nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2018, 10:31:36 pm »
Any guidance on min required wire gauge ?

buttersoft

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 712
  • Is running at 15kHz
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2018, 10:40:59 pm »
Anything, really. Video signals are low voltage and low current. For cables you want shielded lengths of 75R impedance, but for very short runs it's not so critical.

Zebidee

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1040
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2018, 11:24:31 pm »
Any guidance on min required wire gauge ?

I find AWG 22 works pretty well for a range of retrogaming applications, from video signals to joystick switches.
Check out my completed projects!


nitrogen_widget

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1086
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2018, 01:54:33 pm »

nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2018, 07:07:54 pm »
I am driving 2 hrs each way to get this friggin thing.. I thought it was closer.

Oh well.  SCART cable in hand, switches and vga breakout on the way by Sunday, scart female connectors in hopefully wed.  Will make quick progress.

Zebidee

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1040
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2018, 08:12:31 pm »
Mannnn, doncha hate that cooldown period between making your grand evil plans, and waiting for the stuff to be  delivered...

Good thing about retrogaming is that there is always something else to do while waiting, so that you can keep your fire stoked :D
Check out my completed projects!


nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2018, 04:17:07 pm »
Yeah wrk, I just did the 4 hr round trip to get this thing.  Looks in great shape, really sharp. Will likely attempt the mod sometime this week.  Depends on when this scart coupler comes.  Was shipped with no tracking info from the UK .... :(

Zebra

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 90
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2018, 02:02:10 pm »
Out of interest, why would use a scart port if the plan is to connect a PC which uses a standard db15 output port?

It seems like some people think that the type of plug used would limit the options for what type of sync you could connect. You can wire any type of RGB connector for composite sync, seperate sync or sync on green. There is no intelligence inside a scart or db15 plug which prevents composite sync.

You should use the most convenient plug type for the source you plan to use. If you planned to hook up an old SNES or PS1, a scart port would make sense as cheap scart cables for this consoles are readily available. For a PC with CRT EMU, BNC or db15 makes the most sense.

There is no need to waste money on BNC to scart or db15 to scart adapters.

nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2018, 03:00:03 pm »
Out of interest, why would use a scart port if the plan is to connect a PC which uses a standard db15 output port?

It seems like some people think that the type of plug used would limit the options for what type of sync you could connect. You can wire any type of RGB connector for composite sync, seperate sync or sync on green. There is no intelligence inside a scart or db15 plug which prevents composite sync.

You should use the most convenient plug type for the source you plan to use. If you planned to hook up an old SNES or PS1, a scart port would make sense as cheap scart cables for this consoles are readily available. For a PC with CRT EMU, BNC or db15 makes the most sense.

There is no need to waste money on BNC to scart or db15 to scart adapters.


Excellent question.... that I don't have a good answer for.  Most of the mods out there that I found used SCART,and I was following a step-by-step guide.   I had already ordered the stuff, then realized.... why am I doing this.. but had already ordered the 2 female scart ends, a male to male scart cable, and a db15 breakout adapter.

so it's vga->scart apparently.   
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 03:01:42 pm by nipsmg »

Zebidee

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1040
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2018, 04:05:39 pm »
Out of interest, why would use a scart port if the plan is to connect a PC which uses a standard db15 output port?...

Didn't we just have this discussion earlier in the thread?


If you planned to hook up an old SNES or PS1, a scart port would make sense as cheap scart cables for this consoles are readily available.

And there is an excellent answer, interchangeability. By making the inputs to a SCART standard you can readily use existing cables to connect whatever system you want. The cables for these systems (linking to SCART) already exist. You also have "standard" inputs readily available to use for audio to TV speakers (assuming you bother to wire them up to your new SCART port, of course).

You could also wire audio up to a DB15 (VGA) port, but you'd be making it up as there is no standard layout for audio via VGA port. Your cable would only be useful for yourself and that TV (or any others that you wire up according to your newly established "standard").

On the other hand, some do it all VGA, including people who have done many RGB mods. If all you care about is RGB input from PCs then VGA ports are probably more efficient (smaller, at least). But if you want to connect audio & other systems with standard SCART cables/pinouts, then SCART seems to make more sense.
Check out my completed projects!


nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2018, 04:07:25 pm »
In this case, the plan is to decase the TV and hang it in an arcade cabinet, essentially using it only as an arcade monitor.  Audio is not a concern, so in this SPECIFIC case I probably should have gone with VGA, but didn't.

Oh well.

buttersoft

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 712
  • Is running at 15kHz
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2018, 06:42:23 pm »
If you ppl had actually read my first post... :)

nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2018, 06:59:13 pm »
Everything Iíve done in this hobby has been over complicated... why stop now?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 08:58:04 pm by nipsmg »

buttersoft

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 712
  • Is running at 15kHz
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2018, 07:30:05 pm »
Hah, same. So many things, so many mods to mods i could have done cheaper and more smoothly leading to so many Frankenstein additions inside my cabs :D

Zebra

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 90
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2018, 12:02:29 pm »
Out of interest, why would use a scart port if the plan is to connect a PC which uses a standard db15 output port?...

Didn't we just have this discussion earlier in the thread?


If you planned to hook up an old SNES or PS1, a scart port would make sense as cheap scart cables for this consoles are readily available.

And there is an excellent answer, interchangeability. By making the inputs to a SCART standard you can readily use existing cables to connect whatever system you want. The cables for these systems (linking to SCART) already exist. You also have "standard" inputs readily available to use for audio to TV speakers (assuming you bother to wire them up to your new SCART port, of course).

You could also wire audio up to a DB15 (VGA) port, but you'd be making it up as there is no standard layout for audio via VGA port. Your cable would only be useful for yourself and that TV (or any others that you wire up according to your newly established "standard").

On the other hand, some do it all VGA, including people who have done many RGB mods. If all you care about is RGB input from PCs then VGA ports are probably more efficient (smaller, at least). But if you want to connect audio & other systems with standard SCART cables/pinouts, then SCART seems to make more sense.

Didn't he say it was going to be used with a PC...

Sound is no issue as it is better to run speakers off a sound card / amp. A sound card could also connect direct to the TV's phone port.

Using scart does make more sense for old consoles but for a PC, it's more of an inconvenience than a help. Just one more adapter to buy and scart to vga ones seem to be unreasonably expensive (when you could have used any vga cable you have on-hand).

I used to use scart to connect my consoles when I lived in the UK. It gets the job done but I can't say I miss using them. I prefer BNC for scenarios where I use multiple machines on the same rgb port.

But... to each his own. It just seemed to be worth mentioning that a person doesn't have to use one or the other to get the sync type they need.

Also, a tip for people who don't like soldering. You can get DB15 (vga) breakout boards on eBay for less than $10 and they allow you to connect wire to conveniently labeled screw terminals. They are very handy for make diy adapters too.

nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2018, 03:09:46 pm »
I got one of those break-out boards....  and I'm slowly leaning towards using it and mounting it to the back of the TV and just doing VGA...  I'm getting started this week (thurs or fri)... so the decision will be based partly on how I'm feeling at the time, and partly on whether or not the female SCART connectors come in on time.

Zebidee

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1040
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2018, 12:24:01 am »
I just ordered a few of these VGA screw-terminal breakouts, which will be very convenient for doing retro-cabling:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-x-DB15-Male-D-SUB-3-Row-15Pin-VGA-Plug-Breakout-Terminal-Solderless-Connector/222636518113?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

With those I can use any old cable (shielded better for sure, but whatever cable) and just screw it in.

If you ppl had actually read my first post... :)

Also, a tip for people who don't like soldering. You can get DB15 (vga) breakout boards on eBay for less than $10 and they allow you to connect wire to conveniently labeled screw terminals. They are very handy for make diy adapters too.

Ummmm, yep.

As you'd already know, having read the thread, I ordered a pack of 10 for $30 last week and posted the idea here. No more scrounging around for crappy old VGA cables. They should be very useful, glad you like them too   :cheers:

Buttersoft, you are so right. :laugh2:
Check out my completed projects!


Zebidee

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1040
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2018, 12:54:09 am »
I got one of those break-out boards....  and I'm slowly leaning towards using it and mounting it to the back of the TV and just doing VGA...  I'm getting started this week (thurs or fri)... so the decision will be based partly on how I'm feeling at the time, and partly on whether or not the female SCART connectors come in on time.

Mostly you would want female to make a VGA port on your TV?

You can also buy female VGA breakouts, if you want, for an easy TV VGA port:
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DB15-Female-3-Row-15Pin-D-SUB-VGA-Plug-Breakout-Terminal-Board-Connector/183478974910?hash=item2ab832f9be:g:psAAAOSw0kRbvXSC:rk:7:pf:0

Alternatively, you could just solder up to a normal female VGA 3-row DB15 connector to the TV (cheaper, more permanent)? This way you can still easily access the new female port's pins from outside by using a normal VGA cable or by plugging in a male VGA breakout:
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Lot-VGA-male-Female-Jack-Socket-DB15-15Pin-D-SUB-3-Row-Solder-Connector-Adapter/122655876174?hash=item1c8edc244e:m:mFfma5u48-MSsgvGYGtzzXA:rk:6:pf:0
Check out my completed projects!


nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2018, 07:03:43 am »
Yeah, I landed on just using a female VGA connector on the TV end.  Should be trivially easy to wire it up, and I won't be using it for anything other than an arcade monitor.   I ordered a Radeon R7 240 that should be in tomorrow.  I also purchased a wii component cable so I can run the 240p test suite on my wii and test out the screen geometry.

I'm doing the mod either tomorrow after work or Friday, so wish me luck.


Zebidee

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1040
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2018, 09:07:42 am »
I'm doing the mod either tomorrow after work or Friday, so wish me luck.

Good luck nipsmg!

Did you get around to determining whether your TV's jungle IC supports RGB inputs?

On my own RGB TV project - I just spent best part of yesterday digging around a new 21" CRT TV I've got, and unfortunately it seems that it doesn't support RGB inputs to the jungle/OSD chip (it only has a single combo chip, takes Y/Pr/Pb, S-video, composite inputs only). It outputs to the neckboard in RGB after that, but that isn't going to be very useful. If I input the signals at that late stage, they would bypass all the goodness of video processing for brightness/contrast/black levels/cutoffs etc.

Never mind, the tube will still be good for attaching to an arcade monitor chassis.... Or maybe it's time to try making that VGA-component adapter I keep on talking about :D

Check out my completed projects!


nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2018, 02:39:56 pm »
I'm 100% certain the Sony 27FS100 supports RGB in (that's why I drove so far to get it).  There are quite a few examples out there for this tube specifically. 

My plan is here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comments/9p96i1/getting_a_27fs100_for_rgb_mod_this_weekend_can/

Some 27FS100 mods:


I've been reading the shmups thread in depth the past few days, and there's apparently a better way to hack into the OSD RGB inputs inline that allows them to be overlaid on the picture (so you can see volume/system menus, etc).  I may go that route, so the plan in that reddit post might change.  Not sure yet.

Zebidee

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1040
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2018, 03:49:11 pm »
I'm 100% certain the Sony 27FS100 supports RGB in (that's why I drove so far to get it).  There are quite a few examples out there for this tube specifically. 

My plan is here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comments/9p96i1/getting_a_27fs100_for_rgb_mod_this_weekend_can/

Ah yes, I should have recalled that from looking at your reddit thread last week. Can't see any reason for it to not work. Looking forward to the weekend!


Check out my completed projects!


nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2018, 05:13:59 pm »
So.. I snapped a collector off the neck board, and my dad broke a diode on the board.  *sigh* gonna be another week.

Zebidee

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1040
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2018, 06:27:41 pm »
So.. I snapped a collector off the neck board, and my dad broke a diode on the board.  *sigh* gonna be another week.

Yikes... no dedicated workspace?
Check out my completed projects!


nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2018, 05:45:25 am »
It was actually two connectors that did not want to come off.  Tied pulling with hands , pliers, then prying.. bad idea. Also,just crappy RadioShack desoldering braid, not great tools.  We will fix and get resolved in the next week.  Ok the meantime iíll Get everything also done I can.  *sigh*

Zebidee

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1040
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2018, 08:43:06 am »
Also,just crappy RadioShack desoldering braid, not great tools.

I tend to prefer a solder pump, though sometimes braid/wick is the only way to go. Usually people tend to prefer one or the other  :dunno

My second RGB mod exploration just ended disastrously. 30-sumpting Old Sony F25M23 TV gained from in-laws some years ago, composite inputs. It's the Thai model, and all the repair info I can find online is in Thai. Good thing I can read Thai. Good so far, but still no service manual, and I'm guessing it's jungle is  Y/Pb/Pr inputs only from a manual for one similar. Naturally, instead of turning her on, I opened her up. Dirty as hell, Dad was a smoker (now quit) and Mum cooked near the TV so it looked horrible in there. Thought I'd pull everything out and clean it all with my air compressor.

Discharged the tube, gently took off the neckboard... then the glass and pin mount disintegrated. Saw lots of carbon scoring around the first(?) pin, obviously some serious high voltage sh!t has been going down. No kidding, the glass has disintegrated into power from whatever was going on. No wonder they wanted to get rid of it!

Decided to scrap that TV, tube is dead and chassis obviously has problems. Taking any useful bits off before I take it for proper disposal at the waste centre an hour drive away (local one can't deal with electronic waste).

Ah well, back to the drawing board (and asking for pre-loved TV donations).

Check out my completed projects!


nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2018, 01:37:50 pm »
YAY Progress:

Done:
  • Replaced Zener diode destroyed while attempting to pry off a connector
  • Fixed high voltage connector ripped off neck board because I thought it was a faston..  ::)
  • Desoldered and bent up pins on the jungle chip
  • Soldered RGB + Blanking pin wires to chip and to holes beneath chip
  • Soldered R,G,B,SYnc,Gnd wires to VGA connector
  • Created small perfboard for resistors to ground and caps for RGB wires from VGA connector and soldered all wires in.

ToDo:
  • Wire RGB + Blank from chip to Molex Connector
  • Wire RGB + Blank form holes under chip to Molex Connector
  • Wire RGB from VGA to switch
  • Wire +5v from board to molex connector.
  • Wire GND from board to molex connector.
  • Wire sVideo luma pin to molex connector
  • Wire RGB+Blank on other side of molex connector (X2) to switch
  • Wire +5v from other side of molex connector to VGA connector RGB side of switch
  • Wire GND from VGA to GND pin on molex
  • Wire SYNC from VGA connector to SVIdeo Luma pin on Molex
  • Play some games!!!!!

Some images from the wiring (click to enlarge):

« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 01:54:24 pm by nipsmg »

Zebidee

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1040
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2018, 02:35:03 pm »
YAY Progress:

Done:
  • Replaced Zener diode destroyed while attempting to pry off a connector
  • Fixed high voltage connector ripped off neck board because I thought it was a faston..  ::)
  • Desoldered and bent up pins on the jungle chip

Dooooode, its a jungle chip, not jungle gym...

Quote
  • Soldered RGB + Blanking pin wires to chip and to holes beneath chip
  • Soldered R,G,B,SYnc,Gnd wires to VGA connector
  • Created small perfboard for resistors to ground and caps for RGB wires from VGA connector and soldered all wires in.

Specs? Details!

Quote
ToDo:
  • Wire RGB + Blank from chip to Molex Connector
  • Wire RGB + Blank form holes under chip to Molex Connector
  • Wire RGB from VGA to switch
  • Wire +5v from board to molex connector.
  • Wire GND from board to molex connector.
  • Wire sVideo luma pin to molex connector
  • Wire RGB+Blank on other side of molex connector (X2) to switch
  • Wire +5v from other side of molex connector to VGA connector RGB side of switch
  • Wire GND from VGA to GND pin on molex
  • Wire SYNC from VGA connector to SVIdeo Luma pin on Molex
  • Play some games!!!!!

Some images from the wiring (click to enlarge):



Good luck with finishing this!
Z.
Check out my completed projects!


nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2018, 02:59:58 pm »
So..

Got everything wired up, reconnected al the cables on the boards, put the neck board back on, plugged in my molex connector, connected to vga, got all excited to try it out..

Plugged in the tv and..

CCCRRRAAACCCKKK

Because... my dumb ass forgot to put the anode cap back on. TV non-responsive after putting the cap back on. No picture, Just get flashing red led on front panel.

Good news is most of the hard work is done.. I have the vga wired to a perfboard with my resistors and caps, wired to a 4pdt switch, all wired to a molex .. and the other side iím Just going to clip at the jungle chip, so Iíll just need to solder back into another tv..... when I find one.  And now I have to dispose of this one. * sigh*

Zebidee

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1040
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2018, 04:46:49 pm »
Yikes! Bad news indeed. Wonder what TV components you blew up? Flyback, HVR, HOT ... well, I've always wondered what'd happen if you turned on the power without the anode cap attached, and this is pretty close to my imagination. Lucky it wasn't worse :D

Safety, safety, safety. Even more important than discharging anode caps, you need to keep a cool head when hacking TVs. I walk away from my projects as often as not because I'm too tired, too bored/focused, too angry, too frustrated, too fired-up, too drunk. Take a break and come back a little later, with a fresh mind you see problems/solutions that you couldn't before.

It is always a good idea to spend 30 seconds to a minute or so triple checking that everything is connected properly before plugging power in, starting with that anode!

Anyway, enough of the safety lecture. Can you identify what bits you've zapped? Probably not worth repairing the TV, unless you have a pretty good idea of what you've blown, how to fix it and access to spares (eg donor TV). Alternatively you could keep it as your donor TV, until trash-time comes anyway. The next TV you find might be a compatible Sony too!

If you're going to trash the TV, suggest that you pull some useful and re-usable bits for future hacks eg power switches (AC rated!), speakers, video/audio input jacks.  Flyback could possibly be useful if it isn't dead and suits a compatible TV, but that is a long shot. Beyond the fairly simple stuff, its probably not worth keeping old TV components for long if you don't know what they are for/potential use.

If you're not going to keep/give away the tube (people are often looking for tubes, although it is not your responsibility to find them), you could pull off any rubber feet and magnetic strips off the yoke area, degaussing coil, grounding leads etc before trashing the tube.
Check out my completed projects!


Paradroid

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 612
    • SCART Hunter
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2018, 05:57:19 pm »
Safety, safety, safety. Even more important than discharging anode caps, you need to keep a cool head when hacking TVs. I walk away from my projects as often as not because I'm too tired, too bored/focused, too angry, too frustrated, too fired-up, too drunk. Take a break and come back a little later, with a fresh mind you see problems/solutions that you couldn't before.

Solid advice. A printed checklist (with tickboxes) is good too e.g. anode attached, ground wire attached, neckboard seated firmly, yoke plugs attached, degauss coil attached, etc. Can save a lot of grief.
My MAME/SCART/CRT blog: SCART Hunter

nitrogen_widget

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1086
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2018, 09:37:00 pm »
I know the too drunk one.
was wiring up my rpi to control my hot tun and testing the relays and zapped myself pretty good because I forgot to cut power.
LOL!

No more drinking while working on electrical stuff. :)

nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2018, 06:44:00 am »

Solid advice. A printed checklist (with tickboxes) is good too e.g. anode attached, ground wire attached, neckboard seated firmly, yoke plugs attached, degauss coil attached, etc. Can save a lot of grief.

Checklist is definitely necessary for me.  In this case I was just excited to give it a shot and overlooked it.  Everything else I had written down, like molex Pinouts , wiring diagrams, etc I quadruple-checked.


Paradroid

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 612
    • SCART Hunter
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2018, 03:43:29 pm »
In this case I was just excited to give it a shot and overlooked it.

Yes... definitely been there before!
My MAME/SCART/CRT blog: SCART Hunter

nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2018, 04:42:26 pm »
Got a line on an KV-27FV300 which is a better model with the exact same pinout on the jungle (w00t).

I may be going to pick it up today (we'll see).



Zebidee

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1040
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2018, 09:12:29 pm »

Solid advice. A printed checklist (with tickboxes) is good too e.g. anode attached, ground wire attached, neckboard seated firmly, yoke plugs attached, degauss coil attached, etc. Can save a lot of grief.

Checklist is definitely necessary for me.  In this case I was just excited to give it a shot and overlooked it.  Everything else I had written down, like molex Pinouts , wiring diagrams, etc I quadruple-checked.

Here's a useful checklist to use before turning on CRTs for servicing/testing, shamelessly ripped off another forum in the interests of promoting safety:

1) No crap/dust/dirt/filth on chassis or back of tube
2) Anode area clean, anode cap seated firmly and both clips engaged
3) Neckboard connected properly
4) Ground wire connected to neckboard
5) Yoke connector connected to chassis
6) Degauss coil fitted/connected (Note: some arcade chassis do not include degauss circuit)
7) Any other connections specific to your CRT, eg sub-PCBs for geometry, power, tuner, inputs etc
8) RGB/S connected to chassis (including video amp, required by most arcade monitors)
9) Power connected to chassis (including isolation transformer, often required for arcade monitor)

Isolation transformers are a good idea for testing, regardless off whether your monitor needs them, as they create a local ground loop. In summary, this means that shorts to ground won't happen through you (usually, unless you really push your luck), and thus you are more likely to stay alive. Worth considering.

If you are too tired or whatever to do these checks properly, go away and sleep or eat or do something else. Come back a bit later.
Check out my completed projects!


nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2018, 01:14:28 pm »
I picked up the 27FV300, and the picture looks amazing.. so we're going to try this again.  (With the proper checklist.. with CHECK ANODE CAP listed every other line. :)

Based on the RGB mod thread over at shmups.system11.org:
https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56155&sid=958598290234963ba5997d9d4731ade9&start=1980

These are the notes for the BA-5D chassis.

Quote
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My notes for the BA-5D chassis:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RGB Notes
"OSD Mux

Remove R020, R022, R024 SMD resistors that are on the OSD lines. Use 680R or 750R on External RGB lines as well as the normal 75R termination

There are a set of jumper wires on the OSD RGB lines that can be used as our RGB injection point or the solder points from the removed resistors"

Blanking Notes
"5V on Diode leg from OSD Ys. Could possibly put Scart pin 16 to L304."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This method will mux in the OSD display along with my OSD signal, so I can get volume and system menus up on the screen if need be, without having to switch the mod on/off.   I now only need a 1PST switch to turn on and off the 5v line to the blanking pin to disable the screen blanking.  This will allow me to still use other inputs on the TV.  Until I have everything adjusted right, I will need component to run the 240p test suite from my WiiU to check geometry, color balance, etc.

This method does not require me to lift the legs of the Jungle IC (YAY).  This board has TONS... TONS of exposed jumpers on the topside of the board I can tap into, I will just need to get my multimeter and trace out the lines.  I'll still have to take the A board out, as I need to remove the indicated SMD resistors.. and I believe all of the surface mount components are bottom-side.  Still, this will be a LOT less difficult than the previous attempt.

I'm hoping to get some of this (if not all of it) done this weekend, but that depends on my other commitments.  Either way, I plan on being DONE with the physical part of this mod by Wednesday next week.


Arroyo

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 274
  • Budgets are boring
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2018, 02:32:59 pm »
I picked up the 27FV300, and the picture looks amazing.. so we're going to try this again.  (With the proper checklist.. with CHECK ANODE CAP listed every other line. :)

Based on the RGB mod thread over at shmups.system11.org:
https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56155&sid=958598290234963ba5997d9d4731ade9&start=1980

These are the notes for the BA-5D chassis.

Quote
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My notes for the BA-5D chassis:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RGB Notes
"OSD Mux

Remove R020, R022, R024 SMD resistors that are on the OSD lines. Use 680R or 750R on External RGB lines as well as the normal 75R termination

There are a set of jumper wires on the OSD RGB lines that can be used as our RGB injection point or the solder points from the removed resistors"

Blanking Notes
"5V on Diode leg from OSD Ys. Could possibly put Scart pin 16 to L304."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This method will mux in the OSD display along with my OSD signal, so I can get volume and system menus up on the screen if need be, without having to switch the mod on/off.   I now only need a 1PST switch to turn on and off the 5v line to the blanking pin to disable the screen blanking.  This will allow me to still use other inputs on the TV.  Until I have everything adjusted right, I will need component to run the 240p test suite from my WiiU to check geometry, color balance, etc.

This method does not require me to lift the legs of the Jungle IC (YAY).  This board has TONS... TONS of exposed jumpers on the topside of the board I can tap into, I will just need to get my multimeter and trace out the lines.  I'll still have to take the A board out, as I need to remove the indicated SMD resistors.. and I believe all of the surface mount components are bottom-side.  Still, this will be a LOT less difficult than the previous attempt.

I'm hoping to get some of this (if not all of it) done this weekend, but that depends on my other commitments.  Either way, I plan on being DONE with the physical part of this mod by Wednesday next week.


I just picked up one of these the other day.  Just curious why you donít use the RGB component connections in the back?  All you need is a transcoder (no loss in quality whatsoever) and you can skip all the hassle of a hack.

Paradroid

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 612
    • SCART Hunter
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2018, 04:39:57 pm »
Just curious why you donít use the RGB component connections in the back?  All you need is a transcoder (no loss in quality whatsoever) and you can skip all the hassle of a hack.

"Imperceptible"? Perhaps! "No loss in quality whatsoever"? Not strictly true.

Anyway, once you know how to perform the mod, it's WAY cheaper than buying a decent transcoder.
My MAME/SCART/CRT blog: SCART Hunter

Arroyo

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 274
  • Budgets are boring
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2018, 04:54:33 pm »
"Imperceptible"? Perhaps! "No loss in quality whatsoever"? Not strictly true.

Anyway, once you know how to perform the mod, it's WAY cheaper than buying a decent transcoder.

Hehe, yeah kinda regretted that language after I hit post.  Good to know, thanks for posting. 

Good luck nipsmg, will watch with great interest.

nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2018, 05:15:45 pm »
So I'm driving this with CRT_Emudriver, and I was under the impression that using a transcoder could cause issuse with the sync.  -- I want as little interference in that chain as possible, because I need to see what the sync range of this tube /chassis is.  This is direct injection of sync and RGB - no interference.

Arroyo

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 274
  • Budgets are boring
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2018, 09:23:58 pm »
So I'm driving this with CRT_Emudriver, and I was under the impression that using a transcoder could cause issuse with the sync.  -- I want as little interference in that chain as possible, because I need to see what the sync range of this tube /chassis is.  This is direct injection of sync and RGB - no interference.


If thatís true Iíd love to know as Iím using a transcoder.  So far Iím happy with the image quality, although Iím only 3 days into setting it up, and I havenít perceived any of the issues with tearing, etc:

nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #54 on: November 17, 2018, 07:13:12 am »
Well damn.  That looks good.

If I knew that it would look that good and hadnít already invested the time and research I would go that route all day. 

Oh well, not much I can do now

Zebidee

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1040
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #55 on: November 17, 2018, 07:28:40 am »
CRT_emudriver is fine wrt sync. Note that you can set CRT_emudriver to only output composite sync. This is sufficient.

Component conversion does involve a very small delay on the Y channel in the transcoding stage, but for most purposes/people the delay will be unnoticable.

Arroyo: If you want to discuss component vs RGB further, I suggest you open a new thread, rather than derailing this one, as the OP is clearly about RGB modding.

What transcoder are you using? I ask because most of them are rubbish, although good ones do exist. The only good one I know to be currently available is the JROK and it costs $US80, which is more than the cost of a new CRT TV. An RGB mod should cost <$US5. So go figure that out with whomever manages your purse-strings.

I've already done a "double-mod", that is a RGB->component->TV hack, using my own RGB2YUV circuit, and I can confirm that it looked great. Really really good. I did it recently while waiting for other things to happen (ie I was temporarily bored had the stuff on hand). In summary, I was impressed, about 90-95% of what RGB can do, a possible/passable substitute or RGB. However, the only way component would be better than RGB is if the RGB is low-quality (and the component good).

I'd post more about my double-mod here, but I already have on another forum, am currently having issues with it due to too much meddling (mostly regarding the TV mod part, not the RGB2YUV mod part). Also, I don't want to upset this thread, and won't start a new thread here until I've worked out those issues to my own satisfaction.
Check out my completed projects!


Zebidee

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1040
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2018, 07:34:56 am »
Well damn.  That looks good.

If I knew that it would look that good and hadnít already invested the time and research I would go that route all day. 

Oh well, not much I can do now

Don't be disheartened, you are already on the right path. RGB modding your TV (vs component) is a "good" thing.
Check out my completed projects!


Arroyo

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 274
  • Budgets are boring
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #57 on: November 17, 2018, 12:21:30 pm »
If I knew that it would look that good and hadnít already invested the time and research I would go that route all day. 

Nah if anything Iím rooting for you, as to Zebideeís and Paradroidís point, this is way cheaper and if you can pull it off Iíll definitely be copying you in the future.  Especially because you could use the technique on TVís without component input.

Arroyo: If you want to discuss component vs RGB further, I suggest you open a new thread, rather than derailing this one, as the OP is clearly about RGB modding.

Definitely not trying to derail the thread, more of a curiosity as to the reason of hacking, and now I get it. Apologies nipsmg if I did.

Quote
What transcoder are you using?

(Retrotek VGACTV1) https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F192116647418

Quote
An RGB mod should cost <$US5. So go figure that out with whomever manages your purse-strings.

All the more reason to watch this thread.  :cheers:

Zebidee

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1040
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2018, 06:31:28 pm »
... transcoder?

(Retrotek VGACTV1) https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F192116647418

Quote
An RGB mod should cost <$US5. So go figure that out with whomever manages your purse-strings.

All the more reason to watch this thread.  :cheers:

The transcoder you linked to looks good, thanks :D but it costs $US90! I'm trying to see what I can do for cheaper.

Once you have your RGB2YUV sorted out, getting the component TV mod done can be even easier than an RGB mod. RGB hacks usually use the OSD's inputs to the jungle IC. However, most jungle ICs will have primary YUV inputs already (and if they have primary RGB inputs, obviously use those). The advantage of hacking a primary input is that there is no need for hacking blanking signals or OSD/RGB input switches, you can just select the relevant AV mode.

My TV doesn't have component input ports, but the jungle IC has component primary input pins and unused PCB trace lines terminated with 0.01uF caps (103 ceramic).That's where I'm doing my hack's component inputs. There are no RGB inputs on the jungle IC, and the OSD is built-in so OSD hack not possible.  Thus hacking component inputs is the only way, unless I want to hack the neck inputs, hurrr...

Currently I'm working on my "gumption" levels (motivation) as the double-mod was previously working great, looking at least as good as a typical arcade monitor, now isn't working at all, mostly due to my own Farkups. I'm soldering up my 2nd prototype RGB2YUV circuit now (we can rebuild!), and will then have to convince the TV to accept it (by fiddling with options in service mode). Anyway, I'll have to sort out the issues with these mods before saying any more, assuming I find enough "gumption", and will probably start a new thread to do so.

Check out my completed projects!


nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2018, 06:40:56 pm »
So... what I would say is this.  If you are going to go through the Ďtroubleí of RGB modding a set... donít settle for an RGB ->YUV mod when you can find a set with component video for free on Craigslist. All u need is a crt with a jungle IC that has RGB OSD lines..


Look at this thread.  Then check Craigslist.
https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=56155

nipsmg

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • ROONEY!! ERRGH!!
    • Arcadia
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2018, 06:52:29 pm »
Based on my experience so far and my mistakes.  If you donít blow up a set you can EASILY RGB mod a set for <$25.  Wire, a few resistors, and a VGA or scart female port.

Arroyo

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 274
  • Budgets are boring
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2018, 07:05:37 pm »
Based on my experience so far and my mistakes.  If you donít blow up a set you can EASILY RGB mod a set for <$25.  Wire, a few resistors, and a VGA or scart female port.

Watching with enthusiasm nipsmg, love to see what you come up with.

Zebidee

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1040
Re: Going to attempt an TV RGB mod
« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2018, 10:34:37 pm »
Based on my experience so far and my mistakes.  If you donít blow up a set you can EASILY RGB mod a set for <$25.  Wire, a few resistors, and a VGA or scart female port.

Probably even <$5, but yeah very little, it depends on how much you pay for the bits n pieces.
Check out my completed projects!


  
 

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31