Author Topic: Leaf Stick Comparison (Read 8328 times)

Tailgunner · « **on:** January 24, 2004, 08:10:17 pm »

I have both a NOS Wico 4 way and the chinese reproduction of it. I also have a digicam and micrometer, and thought I'd take some pics to clear up some of the information about the repro sticks. I also have Wico 8 way sticks, but I'm leaving them out as with it's diamond cutout I don't concider the repro suitable for use as a 8 way stick. YMMV

First up a side by side showing the both sticks. Repro is on the left.

Tailgunner · « **Reply #1 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:11:54 pm »

Close up of the repro's bottom.

Tailgunner · « **Reply #2 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:12:39 pm »

And the Wico...

Tailgunner · « **Reply #3 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:13:44 pm »

Top of the Repro...

Tailgunner · « **Reply #4 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:14:36 pm »

Wico top...

Tailgunner · « **Reply #5 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:15:39 pm »

Repro disassembled...

Tailgunner · « **Reply #6 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:16:29 pm »

Wico disassembled...

Tailgunner · « **Reply #7 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:17:47 pm »

Grommets side by side.

Tailgunner · « **Reply #8 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:19:16 pm »

A test fit of the repro grommet on the Wico Base. It doesn't fit.

Tailgunner · « **Reply #9 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:20:09 pm »

The Wico grommet does however fit the repro base.

Tailgunner · « **Reply #10 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:22:13 pm »

ID of the repro grommet.

Tailgunner · « **Reply #11 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:23:29 pm »

ID of the Wico grommet.

Tailgunner · « **Reply #12 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:25:11 pm »

OD of the repro shaft.

Tailgunner · « **Reply #13 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:26:33 pm »

OD of the Wico shaft.

Tailgunner · « **Reply #14 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:29:13 pm »

Side by side.

Tailgunner · « **Reply #15 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:36:10 pm »

Side by side of the actual leaf switches, and the plastic pieces that protect the actuator. The repro switchs don't have the spring steel support that original Wico switches, and I would replace them with real Wico switches before using the stick. Keep the plastic pieces as you'll need them again, the ones for Wico joys won't work on the repro stick.

Tailgunner · « **Reply #16 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:54:13 pm »

That's as far as I can compare them as the only working two joy cab I have is an Aliens machine and it uses 8 ways. If the chinese repro a round hole 8 way I'd be happy to test it against one of my Wico 8 way sticks. I'd figure on replacing it's leaf as well though.

OSCAR · « **Reply #17 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:54:27 pm »

Tailgunner, do you give them a thumbs up or thumbs down? That is the question...

Your field pics suggest it is a very suitable replacement, however members on this forum have tended to disagree. Many have inferred that the Chinese sticks use spring tensioners, but your pics show rubber grommets. Being a somewhat accomplished mechanical engineer myself, I certainly appreciate your attention to detail and respect your opinion on these joysticks. Overall, how do you rate these joysticks against the original Wicos?

Tailgunner · « **Reply #18 on:** January 24, 2004, 09:16:55 pm »

The whole grommet issue is what made me document this in the first place.

Personally I don't see a whole lot of difference. People disparage these as being cheap copies, but honestly I'm not terribly impressed by a real Wico's construction either. Wico sticks do stand the test of time so I'll give them credit for that, but excepting the cheap leaf switches they use I don't see why the repros won't hold up as well.

Feel isn't easily quantifiable, and I don't have any mounted where I can test them. My Dynamo cab's CP is still bare and I can mount them to see if there's a huge difference. I'll do that tommorow and report back.

Harakiri · « **Reply #19 on:** January 24, 2004, 10:48:49 pm »

Well, i finally understand know how leaf switches work! (Don't tease me please)

It seems that most of the problems reside in the "leaf's", it seems wico ones are a lot precise! I think that the Wico's balltop shines a bit more and doesn't have the "extra plastic" in the shaft that the chinese repro has!

In spite of that, after the testing if they feel more or less equally i would probably buy the chinese repros!

At least they are fairly cheaper!

bigmoe · « **Reply #20 on:** January 24, 2004, 11:21:22 pm »

Wow! Great work tailgunner, thanks!

I also am interested in a side-by-side impression of their usability, since I managed to come by a few of these repros 2nd-hand. (They look identical, but a little older...my 4-ways have a clover-leafish restrictor rather than a diamond...and I only have one 8-way. The ball-tops I have are smaller than I expected, though I have nothing for comparison and haven't seen a ball-top in an arcade since...I can't remember when.)

GroovyTuesdaY · « **Reply #21 on:** January 25, 2004, 03:24:39 am »

Tailgunner,
My question is where did you get the repro. model? Not to plug any specific vendor , i am just wondering where you got those from. Kelsey sent me a link to centsible arcade last week and their prices seemed reasonable for sure. I think theirs might be an 8 way though, i can't remember.
I will echo Kelseys' praises! OUTSTANDING job on your documentation!
Another reason i was asking about where you bought them is , i was also confused about the whole grommet issue. I didn't know if the ones i have seen on ebay, from VALCA SALES,CENTSIBLE ARCADE are the same ones you review here, because if thats the case, i can see no reason that those sticks would suck anymore then the wico brand.
Seriously! One thing i have wondered from time to time is if the people who chime in with the "OH THOSE SUCK" comments are people who don't understand how to set the leaf contacts up to work right in the first place. Just a thought i have wondered after reading some of those comments.
I welcome your "playtest" review as well & look forward to hearing how you think they "feel" when put up against each other.

Thanks again for going through all the trouble with the pics and all the specifics.

Groovy~

Tailgunner · « **Reply #22 on:** January 25, 2004, 04:11:55 am »

Mine came from Centsible Amusements.

I did a bit more messing around with them, and seeing as how I brought a Wico 8 way home I had some extra parts to play with. First thing I did was swap the leaf switches, and put the 4 way sticks together to roughly guage the feel. Doing so pointed out a few things I think need attention. First up, I think the leaf switches need a washer added between the plastic bit and the L bracket the leaf switches mount onto. From the pic you can see how far the switches are being bent with the joystick shaft centered.

Tailgunner · « **Reply #23 on:** January 25, 2004, 04:13:58 am »

Compared to the assembled Wico.

Tailgunner · « **Reply #24 on:** January 25, 2004, 04:24:49 am »

I also noticed the plastic actuator is both .1" shorter and .01" bigger in outside diameter. The length is a bit too short, and it's barely touching the bottom plate. This is causing some roughness in feeling as the shaft is partially riding on the spring. Sorry for the blurry pics, I was a bit too close for the camera's lense.

The actuator's extra thickness isn't hurting that much, but coupled with switches being mounted so close it certainly isn't helping matters.

Tailgunner · « **Reply #25 on:** January 25, 2004, 04:59:10 am »

As to fixing the actuator's length, a simple solution would be to add a washer or three between the actuator and the E-clip. For my quick test I simply used the Wico 4 way actuator instead. It made a definite difference in feel, but from just moving the assembled stick I could see the switches either need to be spaced out a little further or bent to adjust them. (Probably a bit of both.)

Lastly, to see how they work together I fitted all Wico parts to the repro base. Everything but the metal washer between the grommet and bottom plate would fit. The Wico grommet is a little taller, and the Wico's metal washer ended up being a bit too thick so I used the repro's metal washer instead.

Tailgunner · « **Reply #26 on:** January 25, 2004, 05:01:38 am »

Repro base, Wico balltop knob. If anything this combo would look better from the topside when there are Wico 8 ways on the same panel.

GroovyTuesdaY · « **Reply #27 on:** January 25, 2004, 05:51:47 am »

You didn't answer my question from above lol. Where did you buy them lol.

grrrrrroooooovy

Tailgunner · « **Reply #28 on:** January 25, 2004, 06:04:38 am »

Quote from: Tailgunner on January 25, 2004, 04:11:55 am

Mine came from Centsible Amusements.

Did so.

GroovyTuesdaY · « **Reply #29 on:** January 25, 2004, 06:13:04 am »

oh man, WHOOPS. i am sorry. Its late and my eyes burn lol
BAD GROOVY, BAAAAD GROOVY!!

hehe.
Thanks man!

groovy~:D

Tailgunner · « **Reply #30 on:** January 25, 2004, 06:22:55 am »

Quote from: GroovyTuesdaY on January 25, 2004, 06:13:04 am

oh man, WHOOPS. i am sorry. Its late and my eyes burn lol
BAD GROOVY, BAAAAD GROOVY!!
hehe.
Thanks man!

groovy~:D

LOL

GroovyTuesdaY · « **Reply #31 on:** January 25, 2004, 06:26:21 am »

Dont forget tailgunner, In the end, we are all counting on you for a "final word" of sorts on whether or not the repros. are worth the money and are a worthy successor to the wico sticks.

Thanks again for all your work man! Funny, i bet your not thinking its much work though huh? heheeh.

g~

patrickl · « **Reply #32 on:** January 27, 2004, 11:57:46 am »

Wow that's a lot of detailed pictures!

It's not so much the grommet as to how the grommet is manufactured. If the grommet was good the rest would not be a problem.

I ordered this stick from MikesArcade cause I thought it couldn't be as bad as was described (and I already was ordering a lot from them, I was bullied out in the last 5 seconds of a real Wico deal on e-Bay and I hate the clickety sound of the J-Stick so I assumed I just had to try my luck with another leaf stick).

I received it today and I have to say/shout "OMG these sticks are even more worthless than I ever imagined"!!!!

There is so much space between the shaft and the grommet bushing that almost the full throw of the stick can be reached in several directions (the stick is off center) without even touching the grommet! When you wiggle the whole unit the stick just bounces around in it.

In my case the shaft is 0.95cm (0.374") and the grommet hole is 1.02cm (0.402") which leaves 0.7mm (0.028") of space to wobble about.

The top of the stick can move around 1.4cm (0.5") without using the grommet. The only thing holding the stick up straight is the spring to hold the actuator down.

All this results in a bit of a "two way action" when you switch directions. First it moves freely for about half an inch and then you hits the grommet which hardly budges. By then you have to hope the leaf switches weren't bent already, because otherwise you won't have a hit at all.

Incredible

Tailgunner · « **Reply #33 on:** January 27, 2004, 01:22:46 pm »

Geez Patrick, it sure sounds like you got a lemon. I can recreate about the same amount of play by using a Wico shaft with the repro grommet, and like you said, it's enough to make the stick unusable.

I'd suggest wrapping the shaft with foil tape where it passes through the grommet. But then again, if mine was that sloppy I'd just as likely want my money back.

I've got two more of these repro sticks on the shelf at my shop. I'll have to open them and check to see if either I just happened to get a good one or you just got a bad one.

As to my panel mounting this one to check the feel, I'm currently waiting for the driveway to melt so I can leave the house. Being a southerner, I've never shoveled snow and I have no intentions of starting now.

patrickl · « **Reply #34 on:** January 27, 2004, 04:40:08 pm »

Well I ordered tyhis thing knowing it would not be very good so I can't fault the supplier (although I'll warn them that the stick really sucked) Even if I would have wanted a refund, is that shipping back to the US would probably cost more than a refund on the stick. So I guess I'm stuck with it.

Now that I read your measurements back they sure sound a lot better. Hmm I got it somewhere else, but the "assembly manual" and all the parts sure looks identical. So I guess it's the same setup.

I was thinking of sticking something on the shaft yes. I'd figure if it was stuck that it wouldn't even be so bad (after the leaf switches were repaired/bent back though since they stick out in all directions too!)

One thing different about my stick was that the metal washer was delivered loose. Did yours come assembled somewhere in the joystick?

:edit: OK I spotted the metal washer in your pics and I see that it is supposed to go under the grommet. I assume to keep the spring from going into places where it shouldn't go.

patrickl · « **Reply #35 on:** January 27, 2004, 04:59:57 pm »

I put some "duct-tape" on the shaft and miraculously it functions pretty good. Have to say it feels pretty decent. I haven't hooked it up to a controller yet, but at least it feels like a joystick now $:-\$

GroovyTuesdaY · « **Reply #36 on:** January 27, 2004, 05:55:29 pm »

Hey, whatever works eh? lmao....DUCT TAPE....heheh

patrickl · « **Reply #37 on:** February 05, 2004, 06:38:48 pm »

I was busy scavenging on ebay to find a wico stick, or a replacement Wico base to fit the ball handles from the repro stick I have. To my surprise I found this auction It's about a Wico Berzerk 8-way stick repro unit apparently manufactured by Wico and it looks like the chinese repro stick (well ok probably other way around) So the Chinese apparently copied this stick Iminus the mounting plate obviously). That's why it's a bit different. Who knows, Wico might have actually used a chinese supplier for these sticks ...

Tailgunner · « **Reply #38 on:** February 06, 2004, 08:50:19 am »

That's an interesting find, the repro bottom plate definately looks like it was copied from that. I tend to doubt that Wico used a chinese manufacturer though, China was fairly isolated back when the Wico sticks were being manufactured.

I got around to checking the grommets on my other two repro sticks. One is the same as the one pictured above, the other was around .01 larger and quite sloppy. Patrickl's is even bigger which suggests there's a wide margin of tolerance in the repro grommets. Foil tape tightened up the shafts and improved the feel, but it adds another black mark against the repro sticks.

At this point I'd only reccomend the repro sticks if you can't find a real 4 way and you're willing to work on them to overcome their flaws.


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