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Author Topic: Need advice on painting...  (Read 2901 times)

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jtb1987

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Need advice on painting...
« on: August 29, 2016, 09:33:41 pm »
Hi everyone,

I recently bought a MK1 cab that had been converted to Tekken 3, with the objective being to use the cabinet for my first mame project. The cabinet had been painted over with black latex paint. The cabinet is made out of particle board.

Steps so far:

1.) I've used citristrip to remove the latex paint
2.) I've used a heat gun and scraper to remove the printed graphic underneath (artwork was not in realy horrible shape, but definitely not...good)
3.) I've lightly sanded the sides

Now I actually need advice on next steps. I've read quite a bit of forums and have watched some tutorial videos (I wanted John's Arcade Journey Restore series). But I haven't found anything that's given me the confidence to go purchase materials and begin.

If I can't get better advice, I plan on:

1.) Sanding a little further to ty to remove as much left over dried adhesive from the sides as I can
2.) Bondo all dents/holes...try to repair some damaged corners with Bondo (not too confident about this)...sand flat, bondo again if needed, sand again...
3.) Using Killz oil based primer to coat the full cabinet, sand, reapply, sand, reapply, sand - Not sure the exact grit to use here.
4.) After priming (with foam roller) and sanding enough to feel like it looks like the Journey restore on John's Arcade tutorial...I'll try to apply black, semi-gloss paint. If I understand correctly, I should look for oil based? (I want to the color to be black). If I can't get oil based, I guess I have to use latex, correct?
5.) Paint (foam roller), sand, paint, sand (using higher and higher grits) and then eventually wet sand with really high grit?


This is the most I've been able to gather from my research. But like I said I'm not very confident this is the best method! Would really appreciate guidance/ advice...I won't have access to a spray gun, which I've heard is the best option.

Other questions..

For the corners I need to repair, do I have to use "wood hardener" first? Or can I go directly to sanding, applying bondo, and attempting to sand into correct shape?

I've read some people apply "wood filler" to the entire cabinet if dealing with particle board, is this necessary or can I just get away with multiple coats of primer?

I'm also not sure how to hande the front and back of the cabinet...black latex paint was applied directly to these particle board surface areas...so I guess I just lightly sand and the start the primer process? Need help here...

I've attached a picture of what both sides currently look like. Thank you so much for any replies/help.



jtb1987

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Re: Need advice on painting...
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2016, 09:47:46 pm »
Here are some more pictures to accompany my other questions about repairing the corners with bondo and painting strategy for the fronts/back of the cabinet (which appear to have the black paint applied directly to the particle board).

behrmr

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Re: Need advice on painting...
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2016, 10:20:26 pm »
I like to brush the edges with wood hardener on cabinets like this and let it cure before doing anything.  But that's more of a preference than a necessity.  But if it's chipping or flaking at all then you need to do that before repairs.   Have you considered laminating it?  If you laminate it then there's a lot less room for error.  All you would need to do is get it semi smooth and laminate.  Laminate is pretty easy and all you need is a cheap trim router and a laminate bit.  For your front you could just sand, prime, and use a rattle can semi-gloss/satin/or matt black paint and do that before you laminate.   You would obviously need to measure since those are big to see if a sheet will fit.   It may seem pricey but it's less error prone and paint isn't cheap either.   If you go with paint use an oil based paint. Even if it's rustoleum semi gloss.  Plus you could use a roller with nap to help hide any imperfections.

jtb1987

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Re: Need advice on painting...
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2016, 10:30:37 pm »
behrmr,

Thank for you for the advice, you are saying for the corners and edges that are damaged or chipped/nipped...I should apply wood hardener first before trying to repair with Bondo, correct?

I'd really prefer to paint it rather than laminate it, I know it will be a ton of work (and expensive) but no rush and I really liked how the paint job turned out in the John's Arcade Journey restore youtube series. With that said, any additional advice on both the sides and front/back?

I guess the plan would just be to try to fix items with wood hardener and bondo....hand sand until it fills as smooth as I can get it...then start trying to apply primer, followed by sanding, as much as I need to do to get it to fill really smooth...

I also found this advice on the arcade museum forums:

Sand the side, smooth as you can. If you have any dry rot, issues, whatever, use Minwax Wood Hardener, saturating the area. It will dry with a resin/varnish feel to it. Repair any MINOR chips, etc with Bondo/filler. Sand smooth. When the actual wood is smooth with no major voids or issues from chips and filler, you're ready for primer.

Apply 2 coats of Kilz OIL BASED (do not use the water based...), spray or a fine foam roller works for this. Let it dry a day or 2, then with a palm sander and 220ish grit, sand it back down so that you start to expose the wood. Your goal is to sand through the primer, especially in high spots, while leaving the primer in the pinholes and voids in the surface that are just the nature of particle board. Apply another good coat of oil based white Kilz. Sand again, preferably by hand and a rubber sanding block. You'll get it thin again, but try not to break all the way through to the wood. You will be able to see through the primer, just about, in spots. This should be SMOOOTH...

Now, clean up, blow off the dust, etc, wipe the side with Naptha or a 'degreaser', wipe with a tack cloth. Spray rattle can white or light grey automotive primer, a couple of light coats. You will hand sand this primer with fine sandpaper, and if you took your time, this primer/surface should be smooth as glass. This is pretty much what I did with a Centipede and a Paperboy and the side art installation went flawlessly, BUT it was a ton of work.

Guywiththegun

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Re: Need advice on painting...
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2016, 12:49:50 pm »
I took the same general steps as you after looking at a lot of advice and watching a lot of videos. If I had to do it over again, I'd invest in a sprayer. It sounds crazy at first, but with the amount of time I spent recoating, resanding, etc. to get it just right (it never ends up 'just right'), and the amount of time/money I invested in doing all that . . it would have been worth it and the end result (I hate to say) would look better.

It looks 'fine' now, and probably really good to an eye not as critical as my own towards my own work, but there are definitely roller marks and inconsistencies that I can spot.

I used foam rollers, mohair rollers, 4", 6", foam brushes, regular brushes. I've wet sanded with 2000 grit, sanded with 400 grit countless times. Tried again and again. I'd do everything PERFECT (lots of paint, go back over lightly again to remove inconsistencies), and when it dries? Blemish here, blemish there, roller mark there . . spec of god knows what embedded in the paint there.

All in all I can tell you painting, which I thought would be a fun part considering I'm artistic at heart, was the single WORST part of the process for me. It was maddening and just plain not fun.

I hate to say it because I know the temptation is to just grab a roller and be done with it, without investing more money, but my advice to you is to invest in a sprayer.

behrmr

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Re: Need advice on painting...
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2016, 01:02:25 pm »
... you are saying for the corners and edges that are damaged or chipped/nipped...I should apply wood hardener first before trying to repair with Bondo, correct?

Yes. If you don't your repair is now adhered to a soft area and could literally be pulled off the cabinet whole once cured.

jtb1987

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Re: Need advice on painting...
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2016, 01:09:40 pm »
Guywiththegun,

Thanks for the candid advice...it's convincing.

To clarify though, with the spraying solution, I should still prime/sand/prime/sand until it's as smooth as possible correct? (just as if I was going to attempt with a roller).

You are saying with spraying, I potentially will have less coats of paint, less sanding...but will I still need to wet sand?

Thanks for any further clarification -

Does anyone know a cheap, but regarded as "good" sprayer to purchase for this job? And is there any recommended instructions/tutorials on this method?

jtb1987

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Re: Need advice on painting...
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2016, 01:11:38 pm »
... you are saying for the corners and edges that are damaged or chipped/nipped...I should apply wood hardener first before trying to repair with Bondo, correct?

Yes. If you don't your repair is now adhered to a soft area and could literally be pulled off the cabinet whole once cured.


behrmr,

To clarify, you're saying if I don't first apply wood hardener before trying repair corners with Bondo, when I go to sand the Bondo, I could rip more wood off the cabinet, correct? The wood hardener must make the material stronger to take the sanding of the Bondo if I understand correctly.

Guywiththegun

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Re: Need advice on painting...
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2016, 01:41:28 pm »
Guywiththegun,

Thanks for the candid advice...it's convincing.

To clarify though, with the spraying solution, I should still prime/sand/prime/sand until it's as smooth as possible correct? (just as if I was going to attempt with a roller).

You are saying with spraying, I potentially will have less coats of paint, less sanding...but will I still need to wet sand?

Thanks for any further clarification -

Does anyone know a cheap, but regarded as "good" sprayer to purchase for this job? And is there any recommended instructions/tutorials on this method?

I wish I could help more with the spraying process, but I'm not familiar myself. All I know is there's no brush/roller marks to worry about and you get a nice smooth finish. If/when I do this again, I'll be spraying.

MartyKong

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Re: Need advice on painting...
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2016, 02:39:02 pm »
Yes, To do a proper job you still need to sand between coats but not wet sand with 400 grit or more? Unless you are going for a high gloss show car finish. First fill any dents with bondo. When happy sand wood with 120 grit. When happy roll or spray a sandable primer (used zinnser multi purpose). Tip - have them halve tint color for coverage. Sand with orbital sander 220 grit and repeat. Fix any imperfections at this point for final coat. I use a hvlp (high volume low pressure sprayer. Best to stick with a good automotive oil based paint. Spray cabinet. Since I sprayed mine with a latex paint, I'm unsure which grit to sand with but think 400 is too high. I'd probably try 220 to 300 to smooth out. Wipe off any dust with cloth and spray your final coat. If you are not familiar with spraying, practice on a few pieces until you feel comfortable. Good luck.

9voltsaint

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Re: Need advice on painting...
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2016, 12:20:00 pm »
No matter if you choose to laminate, roll, wrap or spray your final finish, do your best to get the prep right. Take your time, fight that voice in your head that says "this is boring, sanding is boring, sanding primer is boring, sanding filler is boring, putting on more primer is boring" Once your done you can stand back and say, I did that! Feck, I'm awesome!

The prep: looks like you've put in some hard work already

-time to break out that brand new dust mask you just purchased, technicolour boogers do not impress anyone
-make sure all of the old paint is removed. Different types of paint can react with each other.
-Machine sand the large flat areas with 80-120p(aka grit) and on a low speed.
-as a note regarding machine sanding speed, slower will remove more material and the faster the speed the finer the scratches.
-Block sand the edges, using a sanding block will remove material quicker
-also with block or machine sanding, don't press down too hard. This will allow the dust to escape from between the paper and the thing you're sanding, causing less clogging and better quality levelling of the surface. Firm downward pressure but not hard, let the sand paper do some of the hard work. Make friends with the sand paper, you'll be spending some time together.
-once that's done, a quick 180p on a medium speed on the large surfaces and on the narrow edges by hand without a block
-where possible use compressed air to blow the surface dust

-It's Filler Time!
-I didnt find any advantage using wood hardener, even on chip board
-I find two component filler the best, aka body filler, bog, bondo, you add a small amount of hardener to the filler. It dries quickly and thoroughly by chemical reaction just as long as the directions on the can are followed. As a rule of thumb, more is less. Sure, if you mix in a lot of hardener it will dry quicker but, there's a chance the colour of the hardener could bleed through to your top coat!
-only mix a small amount of filler at a time, it drys quick. You can always mix more.
-that bottom corner of your cabinet may take a few goes with the filler in order to get it flat and square. Applying filler to holes is easy, making a shape with filler is an art form. Some tradesman take years to perfect the technique. Don't get discouraged!
-Once the filler starts to harden, it's time to stop applying and leave it alone. Go mix up more if you need to.
-I like to use a metal filler applicator like this


-while the filler is drying, go clean your applicator with some thinners and take a one coffee(sometime between 7:30am to 10am) or one beer break(time of day optional). That should give the filler enough time to have dried. You can use a heat gun or even a hairdryer to speed it up if it's cold where you're working. Only warm up the filler, no need to cook it.

-dust mask back on!
-block sand the smaller holes with 120p-180p, finish off with 240p. Run your finger over the filled hole, if you feel a little divit, apply another small fine layer of filler, block sand again with 180p and finish off with 240p
-hey, where's that mask!
-for the corner, start with 80p using a block making sure you hold the block flat on the surface. When you have removed most of the filler, still holding the block flat on what ever surface your working on, use sanding strokes towards and off the edge. Run your hand over the corner or use a strait edge to test if it is to the shape needed. Just like the process for the holes, apply a fine layer of filler to finish the area and do a fine block sanding.
-blow the dust off
-have a break


Now you're ready for Prime time, and you have some choices to make.

-I like to use two component (2pac)primers, this is the stuff used on modern cars. It's not the best stuff to be breathing in, for you or your family/neighbours. So a good "gas" mask is needed and a well ventilated area that is away from other people. There are two ways this can be applied. Spraying, it can even be rolled. Each technique has pros and cons. Spraying will give a flatter surface making easier to sand, uses less primer and quicker, but the overspray will go everywhere that's not covered. Rolling 2pac will use a lot of primer, peely(orange peel effect), lots of bigger dust blemishes, but no overspray, less fumes for un masked people.
-While 2pac is my preference, there is also automotive Acrylic primer. Acrylic was used on vehicles pre 90's. It just needs to be thinned down and sprayed. 2pac will require 2 or three coats where as automotive acrylic will require 4 or 5. Acrylic is less lethal than 2pac, it is less durable, it has a higher degree of reaction to other paint types, it cost less than 2pac. Acrylic can be difficult to sand since it is plastic and it never really fully drys or cures. It is still possible to get a great final finish with this type of primer. Back in the day, apprentices would start to learn with this type of paint.
-house paint primer is my least favourite and do not recommend it if you're after a finish that has less orange peel effect. I've used top shelf, black label, hand made in Germany house paint type primers. I just trusted what the label said, "easy to sand". Worst stuff, it cracked, it clogged sand paper and flaked off the boards. If you just want to roll on the final finish, then I recommend this. Roll it on, it will build up an orange peel texture which will hide most imperfections. Once it's dry, a light once over with 240p sand paper to remove any largish dust particles and you're ready to roll.
-pressure pack, rattle can, spray can primers and paint. There is so many different types of this on the market. Depends on what is available and legal in your neck of the woods. The quality has improved over the years. There are cans that spray in a fan shape for better coverage, there is even 2pac versions. Painting a large area with an aerosol can be tiring. Just think about holding that spray cap down the entire time. It can expensive. Also If the air temp is too warm the paint will dry while you are applying the paint, which makes it difficult to achieve an even final finish
-while it's not a type of paint you may want to consider one of these spray guns. I've used one to put on 2pac primer. It has some advantages over a traditional compressed air spray gun. It's a bit quieter, it's cheaper than a compressor setup with an HVLP spray gun and it seems to have less fumes(don't be silly, still use a mask). There are many makes and models, check 'em out. I know I was surprised what can be achieved.


I've seen an impressive full size Zelda cabinet on this forum. The quality of the prep he's done is excellent and it shows in the final gold wrapped finish. Sorry don't know how to add the link(no pun intended) to the project thread. It's worth searching to have a look!

It is a major job going down the 2pac path but I believe the time and effort is all worth it in the end. Except for the money, oh Iforgot to mention the money! 

If you want any more info Im happy to help.




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Re: Need advice on painting...
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2016, 08:59:07 am »
The prep...
Well that's one hell of a first post!  :cheers:

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Re: Need advice on painting...
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2016, 11:26:26 am »
First off (regarding John's Arcade) although he is a buddy of mine and a great guy, doesn't always do things the right way (and he admits this at times - cool dude).  John gets it done...  But there are easier and sometimes better ways.

That said, check out Jeff's new channel on how to use wood hardener the RIGHT way.  Subscribe up too, he has some amazing tips on restoring cabinets that seem like they are beyond repair:  ! No longer available

P.S. - If you're impatient you can skip ahead to the 14:00 mark on the video where he talks about restoring edges.

Jason
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« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 11:28:03 am by DeLuSioNal29 »
Stop by my Youtube channel and leave a comment:

9voltsaint

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Need advice on painting...
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2016, 06:13:59 pm »
I forgot to mention, bondo type automotive fillers are great easy to sand fillers. The down side is that they can chip or crush on an exposed sharp edge, like the corner you are attempting to repair. If it was me, I would use a fibreglass filler. It's solid but a real pain in the arse to sand.



Sorry jtb1987! I also should have mentioned, the first step before prep is to apply for a personal loan at your bank. I'll have you spending 5k on your cabinet paint job before you know it! It'll look awesome and you'll be the envy of all the DIY'ers in your hood with all your brand new tools!


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« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 06:15:34 pm by 9voltsaint »