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Author Topic: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?  (Read 7891 times)

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mrclean

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How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« on: February 16, 2016, 10:11:05 pm »
OK so i was able to obtain some rare unDumped ROMS from a very reliable source, however I'd like to test them in MAME. My intentions are to use it on actual hard ware, but I'm having some issues with my burner. Any way for me to test / verify these Roms via MAME or some other type of software so I can see the game playable ? The game has several other games that uses the same driver in MAME so i figured it would be easy ?!
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Haze

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2016, 07:13:45 am »
is there a reason you're not submitting them for inclusion?

sometimes the answer to your question is simple, other times (if there are different protections / encryptions) it isn't.. the best way it typically to let the devs have a look at things and document them for the benefit of everybody.

mrclean

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2016, 12:12:27 pm »
is there a reason you're not submitting them for inclusion?

sometimes the answer to your question is simple, other times (if there are different protections / encryptions) it isn't.. the best way it typically to let the devs have a look at things and document them for the benefit of everybody.

At the current time to protect those that own the game (very few still exist 2-3 if that...), it would devalue the game if it was publicly shared / distributed. Although I'm all about preserving the game for others in the future to enjoy. As far as I know no other different protections / encryption exists on the game (however I could be wrong) the driver is already in MAME for other titles that share the same driver... Ideally i would love a way to verify / test that the ROMs I have are proper. Again my intentions are to use it on actual hardware. 
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paigeoliver

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2016, 12:52:25 pm »
Wild guess is that the roms are something from Atariscott, in which case they would be from an era that almost certainly had some sort of security chip.

Just burning the roms and installing them on your board would be a whole lot faster than trying to add them to mame yourself starting from scratch when you don't know how to do that sort of thing.
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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2016, 02:15:09 pm »
well count me out in terms of helping then.

I see emulation as a case of give and take, always has to be a 2 way street, if you're doing it for entirely private reasons then I'm not interested in helping.

yotsuya

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2016, 03:37:15 pm »
I bet it's Crazy Otto.

And kudos to you, Haze.
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paigeoliver

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2016, 03:42:48 pm »
I bet it's Crazy Otto.

And kudos to you, Haze.

Hoarding the original Crazy Otto codes doesn't make any sense in the first place, since people have already patched Ms. Pac code to create a pixel perfect replica.
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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2016, 03:47:36 pm »
I bet it's Crazy Otto.

And kudos to you, Haze.

Hoarding the original Crazy Otto codes doesn't make any sense in the first place, since people have already patched Ms. Pac code to create a pixel perfect replica.
I dunno, I don't see Scott letting any ROMs out of his collection either.
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mrclean

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2016, 06:41:46 pm »
Rather than the guessing game I'll flat out tell you all what game it is... Bally / Sente's "Team" Hat Trick


No sense in being all mysterious, and I understand it's a give and take situation with MAME vs. dedicated Hardware. Hopfeully I can have someone help with aiding in using it on dedicated hardware as that's my main intention. I've had success with other Sente game / donor carts such as the rare Chicken Shift, and I also own a dedicated Sac1-a Snake Pit... I for one would love to have other people get to experience this unicorn type of a rarity of a gem that was only a prototype with 15 made. I tried burning it on my GQ-4X burner and got hung up on a screen that said "One Moment Please"


 using a sente mini golf cart as a donor board. Not sure if it has any type of encryption that needs to be changed / .pal chip etc within the code... Thus why I'm reaching out. I really need to make sure that the game loads so I can verify my Roms I have for it are even correct to begin with. I'm all about helping the arcade collecting community as a whole and have been over the course of my collecting, didn't want to come off as defensive , but I do value everyone's opinions regarding restoring, vs. documenting etc....

Back in the day the original Hat Trick for the Sente / Bally system was a top earning game, this rare supposedly 4-Player version of the game hasn't been dumped and isn't available in MAME to my knowledge. I know of 3 people that have the dedicated game. My intentions aren't to devalue their game but to have others experience what would otherwise potentially be lost. I actually came across a reddit posting and someone tried reaching out to an original programmer and they didn't even have the code but were surprised people knew of the title.

https://m.reddit.com/r/cade/comments/rh285/contacted_the_programmer_from_my_favourite_game/

Some of these 4-player games are great I'd love to get a chance to experience this game which I'm sure other people would also as well....

I remember years ago when I started collecting seeing this photo, thinking damn it would be sweet to get to play one of those and I'm not even a hockey fan. Now that I have the rare Roms in my possession I'm left with a double edged sword, I don't want to piss off the people that own it... Yet I want others that wouldn't ever have the opportunity other wise to get to play the game..... Thoughts ?


« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 07:03:16 pm by mrclean »
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paigeoliver

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2016, 08:00:49 pm »
There are about a dozen guys who are really into the Sente stuff enough to care and I severely doubt the existence of the game in mame would change their high bid one bit if bidding on a prototype like that.

Cart systems all have some sort of security.
Acceptance of Zen philosophy is marred slightly by the nagging thought that if all things are interconnected, then all things must be in some way involved with Pauly Shore.

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2016, 08:59:35 pm »
Now that I have the rare Roms in my possession I'm left with a double edged sword, I don't want to piss off the people that own it... Yet I want others that wouldn't ever have the opportunity other wise to get to play the game..... Thoughts ?

You probably run a higher chance of devaluing their games with the copy you're building than if it was included in MAME.   Yours could be mistaken as a true original.  A Dell PC would not be mistaken as such.

yotsuya

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2016, 09:26:13 pm »
Rather than the guessing game I'll flat out tell you all what game it is... Bally / Sente's "Team" Hat Trick


No sense in being all mysterious, and I understand it's a give and take situation with MAME vs. dedicated Hardware. Hopfeully I can have someone help with aiding in using it on dedicated hardware as that's my main intention. I've had success with other Sente game / donor carts such as the rare Chicken Shift, and I also own a dedicated Sac1-a Snake Pit... I for one would love to have other people get to experience this unicorn type of a rarity of a gem that was only a prototype with 15 made. I tried burning it on my GQ-4X burner and got hung up on a screen that said "One Moment Please"


 using a sente mini golf cart as a donor board. Not sure if it has any type of encryption that needs to be changed / .pal chip etc within the code... Thus why I'm reaching out. I really need to make sure that the game loads so I can verify my Roms I have for it are even correct to begin with. I'm all about helping the arcade collecting community as a whole and have been over the course of my collecting, didn't want to come off as defensive , but I do value everyone's opinions regarding restoring, vs. documenting etc....

Back in the day the original Hat Trick for the Sente / Bally system was a top earning game, this rare supposedly 4-Player version of the game hasn't been dumped and isn't available in MAME to my knowledge. I know of 3 people that have the dedicated game. My intentions aren't to devalue their game but to have others experience what would otherwise potentially be lost. I actually came across a reddit posting and someone tried reaching out to an original programmer and they didn't even have the code but were surprised people knew of the title.

https://m.reddit.com/r/cade/comments/rh285/contacted_the_programmer_from_my_favourite_game/

Some of these 4-player games are great I'd love to get a chance to experience this game which I'm sure other people would also as well....

I remember years ago when I started collecting seeing this photo, thinking damn it would be sweet to get to play one of those and I'm not even a hockey fan. Now that I have the rare Roms in my possession I'm left with a double edged sword, I don't want to piss off the people that own it... Yet I want others that wouldn't ever have the opportunity other wise to get to play the game..... Thoughts ?


I give you props for such a thorough explanation. Good luck getting them to run. :cheers:
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2016, 09:37:32 pm »
I give you props for such a thorough explanation. Good luck getting them to run. :cheers:

+1   


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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2016, 09:54:14 pm »
Now that I have the rare Roms in my possession I'm left with a double edged sword, I don't want to piss off the people that own it... Yet I want others that wouldn't ever have the opportunity other wise to get to play the game..... Thoughts ?

You probably run a higher chance of devaluing their games with the copy you're building than if it was included in MAME.   Yours could be mistaken as a true original.  A Dell PC would not be mistaken as such.

Exactly my thoughts as well.

mrclean

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2016, 09:57:02 pm »
You probably run a higher chance of devaluing their games with the copy you're building than if it was included in MAME.   Yours could be mistaken as a true original.  A Dell PC would not be mistaken as such.

I have zero intentions of making any profits from the game, my intentions are to preserve it. Hopefully the same thing happens to Bouncer by Entertainment Sciences. People ultimately will be able to play it, enjoy it as it was meant. That's what this hobby is all about.

I give you props for such a thorough explanation. Good luck getting them to run. :cheers:

+1

Not sure if sarcastic or if really wishing me luck haha

Does any one even care for this game ? Would anyone be interested in playing it ?
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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2016, 09:57:53 pm »
You probably run a higher chance of devaluing their games with the copy you're building than if it was included in MAME.   Yours could be mistaken as a true original.  A Dell PC would not be mistaken as such.

I have zero intentions of making any profits from the game, my intentions are to preserve it. Hopefully the same thing happens to Bouncer by Entertainment Sciences. People ultimately will be able to play it, enjoy it as it was meant. That's what this hobby is all about.

I give you props for such a thorough explanation. Good luck getting them to run. :cheers:

+1

Not sure if sarcastic or if really wishing me luck haha

Does any one even care for this game ? Would anyone be interested in playing it ?
No, I was serious. :cheers:
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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2016, 10:08:58 pm »
Does any one even care for this game ? Would anyone be interested in playing it ?

Arcade collectors (like video game collectors in general) basically don't care about most sports games. Any interest in this title is going to be because of the Sente connection and it will really all come down to that dozen or so guys who collect Sente games. The cart data doesn't mean anything without the cabinet as the sort of guys who collect that sort of thing won't be interested in some homemade version of the cabinet.

Is this the Team Hat Trick cart that sold on Klov last month?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 10:12:07 pm by paigeoliver »
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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2016, 10:42:02 pm »
Does any one even care for this game ? Would anyone be interested in playing it ?

Arcade collectors (like video game collectors in general) basically don't care about most sports games. Any interest in this title is going to be because of the Sente connection and it will really all come down to that dozen or so guys who collect Sente games. The cart data doesn't mean anything without the cabinet as the sort of guys who collect that sort of thing won't be interested in some homemade version of the cabinet.

Is this the Team Hat Trick cart that sold on Klov last month?

While I don't disagree regarding the sports games, certain ones will always be incredible i.e. NBA Jam, This particular game / cabinet happens to have a really nice history behind it hellllo Nolan Bushnell  :applaud: ! . Cabinets are being faithfully reproduced in many different facets, and that trend will certainly continue should the market dictate... Look at MM Pinball remake as a prime example 8k. Or Quantum repro Cabinets from Dp aka Brett on KLOV etc.. They still yield thousands of dollars even if the "cabinet / game" is a reproduction. I'm personally not reproducing this particular cabinet... But I do know it's certainly getting done. To answer your question about the cart last month, I have reason to believe that a cart was a Team Hat Trick cart, however the person who bought that already acknowledged they already had the roms to the game according to them.. Like I said a few people have the game... I'm just trying to bridge the gap between the MAME guys and the Collector / Dedicated guys... I see it from both perspectives. Again, I preserve, restore, and help the community as a whole... Hopefully it comes full circle.   
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 10:43:55 pm by mrclean »
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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2016, 10:59:09 pm »
But we both know that there won't be more than a couple of these made even if the data comes out. You might make one, maybe Ritchie Knuckles and John H?
Acceptance of Zen philosophy is marred slightly by the nagging thought that if all things are interconnected, then all things must be in some way involved with Pauly Shore.

mrclean

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2016, 11:26:55 pm »
But we both know that there won't be more than a couple of these made even if the data comes out. You might make one, maybe Ritchie Knuckles and John H?

couldn't tell you ... I have noticed that certainly that website has a tendency to pump out lots of "flavors of the month". At the end of the day if funds and space was unlimited I would have them all. However It's nice to find a rare title which is fun, in someones collection that isn't a run of the mill... Don't get me wrong I thoroughly enjoy the common / popular titles. Somethings to be said about the lessor known gems.
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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2016, 10:01:07 am »
Owned a game ~10 years ago that wasn't in MAME.  I, too, experienced the same mix of ridicule and begging that you're getting here.

Here's the KLOV entry:

http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=18898]
[url]http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=18898

[/url]

Inexplicably, the photos I submitted are here as links:

http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9757]
[url]http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9757

[/url]

Thus is insanity.

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2016, 12:01:30 pm »
It's not about "ridicule and begging." It's that people think they have something so special they can capitalize on it, which simply isn't true. If someone had an original prototype machine that was complete that would,  probably, be worth something to a Sente (and maybe to a regular) collector. But, just putting roms in another machine isn't very collectable. It has been show time and time a gain over the years that dumping a game and putting into MAME doesn't have any material impact on collectability of the real game.

I think it could be great if whomever contributed the roms to the mame cuase, but I don't really care either way. But, to think they are saving the value of the game by not contributing them is total ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.

If the OP wants to put the roms into a machine and thinks that's the best way to "preserve" the game then no ridicule and begging here, just the best of wishes.

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2016, 01:14:10 pm »
No need to beg, or plead... The roms must be tested first and foremost. Next step would be getting it working on my dedicated Hardware... next step is to let "The people" enjoy the game via other methods  ;) . I sent the ROMS to a member of the MAME team to first verify them, get them working in MAME etc, it was at my request that they for the time being don't get distributed... However I assure all of you it will eventually find it's way into the community. A certain pecking order if you will.   
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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2016, 03:45:47 pm »
well count me out in terms of helping then.

I see emulation as a case of give and take, always has to be a 2 way street, if you're doing it for entirely private reasons then I'm not interested in helping.
Much respect.  Thx for all your hard work Haze.  Spend your time coding.

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2016, 03:47:34 pm »
Wild guess is that the roms are something from Atariscott, in which case they would be from an era that almost certainly had some sort of security chip.

Just burning the roms and installing them on your board would be a whole lot faster than trying to add them to mame yourself starting from scratch when you don't know how to do that sort of thing.
Why guess it's from Scott?  Does he actually give out roms to those in need?  Saw a primal rage 2 for sale once but I passed because i think Scott has the only remaining drives/PCBs other than the working copy a gg in Illinois.

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2016, 10:07:59 pm »
I just guessed it because he has multiple titles that aren't in mame. No other reason.


Wild guess is that the roms are something from Atariscott, in which case they would be from an era that almost certainly had some sort of security chip.

Just burning the roms and installing them on your board would be a whole lot faster than trying to add them to mame yourself starting from scratch when you don't know how to do that sort of thing.
Why guess it's from Scott?  Does he actually give out roms to those in need?  Saw a primal rage 2 for sale once but I passed because i think Scott has the only remaining drives/PCBs other than the working copy a gg in Illinois.

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2016, 05:44:14 am »
Owned a game ~10 years ago that wasn't in MAME.  I, too, experienced the same mix of ridicule and begging that you're getting here.

Here's the KLOV entry:


[url]http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=18898]http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=18898]
[url]http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=18898

[/url]

Inexplicably, the photos I submitted are here as links:


[url]http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9757]http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9757]
[url]http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9757

[/url]

Thus is insanity.

Hi.

I just submitted that to KLOV as a bug, we'll see in a decade if they've fixed it. ;)

In the meantime may I please use the photos here:
http://mamedev.emulab.it/undumped/index.php?title=Star_Fighter_%28Potomac%29
and/or submit them to arcade-history.com?

yotsuya

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2016, 11:31:55 am »
There's one of those at StarFighters here in town. It is a Moon Cresta bootleg.
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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2016, 04:04:52 pm »
This is now confirmed and working in MAME ! Thanks to the Dev team .... My next step now that I know the game Roms are legit is to get it to properly run on actual hardware....



2,370,650 Gun.Smoke

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2016, 04:27:28 pm »
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2017, 04:15:00 pm »
Hi guys

are there any news for Team Hat Trick MAME rom, since you reported it is working, but no one has released it?
Or there are some other reasons not to publish this ROM into MAME community?

I would be the happiest person in the world to see this rom working, as me and my friends are big fans of original Hat Trick, playing it more than 10 years :)

Best Regards

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2017, 04:43:26 pm »
are there any news for Team Hat Trick MAME rom, since you reported it is working, but no one has released it?
Not every ROMsite has it, but "teamht.zip" is out there.

Unfortunately, we can't tell you where to look because of Rule 5.


Scott

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2017, 05:18:32 am »
are there any news for Team Hat Trick MAME rom, since you reported it is working, but no one has released it?
Not every ROMsite has it, but "teamht.zip" is out there.

Unfortunately, we can't tell you where to look because of Rule 5.


Scott

Is that not a contradiction in terms?  Are we not allowed to imply due to rule 5?
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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2017, 12:55:50 pm »
are there any news for Team Hat Trick MAME rom, since you reported it is working, but no one has released it?
Not every ROMsite has it, but "teamht.zip" is out there.

Unfortunately, we can't tell you where to look because of Rule 5.


Scott

Is that not a contradiction in terms?  Are we not allowed to imply due to rule 5?
You're right.  That's Scott's way of trying to circumvent the rules. He's basically telling the guy what to search for.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 12:57:50 pm by yotsuya »
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2017, 07:57:32 pm »
Is that not a contradiction in terms?
Dmittri's request was close to, but not over the line.

He didn't ask for the ROM, he asked if there was reason why it hadn't been released.

Working within forum rules, I told him that it had been released and the ROM filename, but not where or how to find it.

Are we not allowed to imply due to rule 5?
That depends on what information you are implying.
Quote from: Rule 5
5. Nothing illegal! Do I even need to explain this one? Need a ROM to repair an arcade board you own? Fine to talk about. Need a ROM to complete your MAME collection? Don't bother to post here. If someone posts such a request, please don't answer it -- no direct answers, no hints, no private messages.
Here's my understanding of how Rule 5 applies in these circumstances.
(Please correct me if these examples are wrong/misleading, Saint.)

OK:
- Posting that a particular ROM has been dumped.
- Posting the filename of that particular ROM.
- Posting other information about a ROM that does not tell where/how to find it.

Not allowed:
- Posting a link to a particular ROMsite/bittorrent where the ROM can be found.
- Posting the name of a particular ROMsite/bittorrent where the ROM can be found.
- Posting specific keywords for a particular ROMsite/bittorrent where the ROM can be found.
- Posting hints that suggest a particular ROMsite/bittorrent where the ROM can be found.


Scott

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2017, 08:25:28 pm »
Don't worry about it, Scott. Multiboards are supposed be taboo, too, but people get support for them here now, it seems.
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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2017, 09:19:55 pm »
Multiboards are supposed be taboo, too, but people get support for them here now, it seems.
The same rules/principles for ROMs apply to unlicensed X-in-1 boards since both involve copyrighted ROMs.

"What pin do I connect the coin mech to on my 60-in-1 board?" = OK

Posting a link to a multiboard owner's manual with vendor watermarks or hosted on a vendor's website. = not allowed since the watermark or URL provides the vendor's name.


Scott

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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2017, 10:31:40 pm »
Where can't you buy them at this point. Almost every place that carries arcade parts sells them as does every website where people can sell stuff. My local furniture store that runs TV adds sells them.
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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2017, 06:56:37 am »
are there any news for Team Hat Trick MAME rom, since you reported it is working, but no one has released it?
Not every ROMsite has it, but "teamht.zip" is out there.

Unfortunately, we can't tell you where to look because of Rule 5.


Scott

Is that not a contradiction in terms?  Are we not allowed to imply due to rule 5?
You're right.  That's Scott's way of trying to circumvent the rules. He's basically telling the guy what to search for.

One rule which is is explicit, and now exploited by the very hand that protects it.  Unbelievable.  What is the world coming to (after February 16) I wonder......
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Re: How can I play an unDumped / variation game in MAME ?
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2017, 11:39:29 am »
Its no different to us putting the rom name on the hi score comp threads.

You could find a rom name and indeed the rom itself with a little googling if you so wished.

 Scott has hardly flaunted the rules imo.