New short throw projectors/my idea......

[BadMouth]

I still have a lot of home remodeling to finish first, but have been giving some thought to what I want to do for the screen of the driving cab in its next incarnation.

I'm leaning toward triple screens, but the oculus rift videos on youtube make a headset look like a pretty cool option for sims.
There's one where the guy is playing Euro Truck simulator and leans out the window to look behind the truck.  That's pretty awesome.
There's another one where Elite Dangerous is being played and the guy looks up to see a ship overtaking him from overhead.

The shortcomings though are the reduced field of view and the fact that you can't see your controls while wearing the headset.

I saw a few demos of extremely short throw projectors being released this year.
Here is one from LG that is still fairly big, but getting there for the concept I'm thinking of.


I remember seeing a short segment on tv about a sharp or Samsung one that I think was smaller, but I can't seem to find the model online.

Anyways, imagine a small short throw projector strapped to your head while sitting inside a half or three-quarter sphere.
Kind of like the new Star Wars Battle Pod arcade cab, but wrapped farther around you.
The image is only projected where you are looking, but head tracking software displays what should be seen when looking there.
Even better would be if the projector wasn't mounted to your head, but moved to match your head movements.

Of course, you'd need custom lenses or some kind of software to correct for curvature.
The bigger the dome, the less would be needed.

Just an idea for now, but if these projectors keep getting smaller I just may tinker with it one day.

[slamminsam]

One way to mount it might be to use a helmet attached to an armature that moves the projector in sync with your head movements. It might also be possible to adjust for the curvature of the screen with the helmet's visor.

[Howard_Casto]

It's an idea, but I don't think it would work.  Projectors aren't really meant to be nudged around and if you've ever seen an un-stabilized helmet cam video, you'll see that a person's head shakes like crazy.  Also you don't look by turning your head (unless you are batman) you look by turning your head and moving your eyes.  I suppose it varies from driver to driver, but I know when I'm driving I keep my head pointed towards the road and quickly glance at mirrors and ect with my eyes when needed.  The only time I look down or to my sides is if I drop something.

Since something like that would require hacking the game anyway, I think that two or more projectors aligned to do a 360 degree dome view would make more sense.  The field of view and camera position would have to be hacked and most likely menus and other in-game huds would be an issue, but other than that it wouldn't be too bad. 

Honestly though, I don't know how many games would really support camera views that would work.  For something like that you'd really want an in-car view and the car interior would need sides... which many games don't have. 

[Xiaou2]

Interesting idea...

 But...  with a short throw projector..  you can pretty much get a 180 degree field of vision..  and if you use a curved screen... And maybe a special lens... you could get the desired mapping without software.    I think theres a Japanese game cabinet that does that actually.  Some kind of Pod.

 The thing that separates the Occulus, is that everything will be in Stereocopic 3D when possible.   This greatly adds to the experience, as now you can tell exactly how far things are from you.

 The Rift is getting new controllers built for it, and I believe it solves the non visible hand issue.

 What I dont understand about the Rift... is why they dont just use a single display,  and flicker the eye lenses on and off.   In that way, you could have a much greater resolution... as well as greater field of vision.

 Ive sadly never got to see one in person.... so I have no idea if the Lenses themselves exaggerate the 3d effect or not.

---

Similar idea - Cast AR

[Fursphere]

I've seen too many people get sick / loose balance / not be able to walk afterwards / etc to want to mess with the Occulus. 

Love the idea, but its not 'ready' yet IMO.  And like you pointed out - loosing the ability to look at your controls sucks.

I have a TrackIR 5 setup - and it almost works.  I mean it works really well, good tech.  Its just that inn games like Dirt Rally, you're just going too fast to look around.  I haven't tried it in Project CARS yet.  I did get it working in Spin Tires - but it didn't really add anything to that one. 

In Euro Truck Sim it works pretty well - you can look out the window and all (all that is is using the keyboard look far left command.. the game handles the looking out the window part)

It works good in MechWarrior online.  And I could see it working good in Elite Dangerous (I haven't picked that one up yet - since its still kind of a 'beta' game)

[Howard_Casto]

I've got a feeling these VR headsets are going to flop harder than the Ouya did.... mostly because they release some sort of vr headset every few years (on the pc at least) and a handful of games are made for it or are hacked to work with it and that's about it.  People keep acting like 3d goggles are a new thing.... they've been doing this since the 2600 days.  Motion tracking is certainly a new addition, and if it worked I would say that would make all the difference, but all the systems I've tried lag too much when trying to detect complex movements. 

Long story short 3d goggles is only one part of the puzzle.  We also need full body tracking, specialized controls and if possible augmented reality to interact with the real world for things like steering wheels and what-not.  Every component has to work flawlessly as well because it's really hard to trick the human body into thinking it's in another space, that's mostly why people get sick when trying the current offerings.  On top of all of that it has to be cheap...or at least cheap enough to where more than a handful of niche users will actually buy it.  It's a tall order to keep.

Yeah... I agree, 180 degrees is about all you need and even ignoring projectors, these new wrap-around screens would probably do the trick out of the box on most games. 

[jbserra]

I worked at a company that did something along these lines.  It used a dome, 2 high end projectors, a servo mounted lens and head tracker. I also agree that you don't look with your head, but with your eyes.  Because of this, we also used software for predicting where the eyes would be relative to the head and you would calibrate it prior to giving it a run.  Worked well.  There was a high resolution inset and a lower resolution peripheral view. When looking ahead, you're field of view was covered. As soon as you turned your head, the lens would follow.  You could turn around and see your wing or approaching planes.  When the projector industry moved to LCD, it was tough to get a good replacement projector that didn't smear horribly when in this configuration.  The projectors at the time were $100k+ each based on the performance requirements.

While I'm sure prices have dropped on most of the required gear, I would expect this to be still hugely expensive.

With that said, LCDs also brought in a wave of (relatively) inexpensive projectors.  Setting up more low cost projectors to cover more view was in progress before I left, however you might need special edge blending software depending on the screen configuration.

I'm going to stick with 3 monitors for now, but moving to 3 projectors would be an awesome upgrade if I had the space.

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah that's about what I figured.  Was it some sort or aerospace work?  It's a shame about the cost of really good rigs.  I think they sell projectors just for the half-domes now.  They aren't cheap but they aren't completely out of reach... I was thinking 2-5k?  Then again I'll bet the quality takes a huge drop compared to an industrial rig.

[jbserra]

Yeah that's about what I figured.  Was it some sort or aerospace work?  It's a shame about the cost of really good rigs.  I think they sell projectors just for the half-domes now.  They aren't cheap but they aren't completely out of reach... I was thinking 2-5k?  Then again I'll bet the quality takes a huge drop compared to an industrial rig.

F-15 simulator.  I worked on the head/eye tracking portion of it.

As persistence goes up, obviously ghosting will get worse, but it's exaggerated even more when combined with a movable lens.  I thought I remember hearing someone indicate the projectors were CRT addressed LCDs if that makes any sense.  There was no way to go pure LCD with how horrible ghosting was back then.

You might have a chance to build the projector setup cheaper nowadays, but you would still have the costs of the servo, controller and lenses and then head tracking, software, etc.  Would certainly be a fun project, but definitely not cheap or easy.

Again, I would think the multiple projector configuration is the way to go, but I'm not sure what's available for edge blending.  Easiest would be flat screens with a straight seam between them. You could just barely run one image into the other and it would look mostly continuous. It gets much more complicated if you're talking a dome because your images would have to be processed for the dome curvature, the seams most likely wouldn't be straight and if they overlapped at all, you'd need an edge blending of some type.

[Boomslang]

Ive actually just got a 180 degree projector screen with 2 x short throw projectors infront for my motion simulator now

Just putting it together so ill post some pics once its running, I had the Oculus Rift but over time really started disliking many aspects of it

[pbj]

This forum will try to talk you out of doing anything.  Don't let your VR porn simulator dreams be dreams.

[Boomslang]

not a great pic but sorta shows what ive got now

2 x short throw projectors will light up this puppy

[Howard_Casto]

I think I would stick with that.... maybe make it a bit taller to make the aspect ratio a bit more retro game friendly.

[Xiaou2]

Did anyone check out the "Cast AR"  yet?   The demos are quite nice.


 Anyways... I want thinking...  What about using a large curved Fresnel Lens?

 So I google:

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12795

  - Here you see a guy using a 24"  LCD with a Fresnel lens to make greater depth of field for his flight sim.

https://arstechnica.co.uk/civis/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=267806

 - And here you see a similar thing.. but using rear-projection technology, with an actual curved Fresnel lens.

 I believe it might work just the same... if you have a standard flat panel display behind the lens.

[BadMouth]

The concept isn't too far off from what I'm proposed here with one important difference.
The thing about CastAR that I think most people don't realize is that the screen material only reflects back in the exact direction the light came from.
This is how the image is still stereoscopic.  Each eye only sees what is being projected from the projector mounted above it.
It also allows two people to be projecting onto the material at the same time, but see things from different angles.
That's the real selling point.  I don't think those tiny eyeglass mounted projectors would be bright enough for me though.

The project seems to have gone quiet as of late.

[Xiaou2]

I just found this.  Pretty cool application of the CastAr.

 The poster says that the image appears as close as 1ft away from her glasses.   The larger the screen, the further the image can pop out of it.

 

 Over a year ago.. a guy I knew got a 13' screen for a new 3d projector he got.   I expected it might be cool.. but didnt think it could possibly recreate the immersion and depth of an Imax3d experience.   Boy was I wrong!     The first thing he demoed was the countdown animation they use before showing Imax films.     My jaw hit the floor.    The images were extending past the screen more than half way into the room.  The next thing he popped in, was Predator 3D.   The conversion to 3d done on this film.. put every other previous 3d conversion Ive seen to shame.   It was a completely different experience.   I was spending more time looking at all of the details on the nearby plants and trees in the jungle.   It felt like I was on-site..   and it was like watching a completely different movie.   Absolutely insanely awesome.

 I think the Pico projectors used will suffer a little from brightness if there is ambient lighting.   I think, if you turn the lights off.. things should be pretty decent.   That reflective material is very bright when illuminated by even a small amount of light... which helps.

[jbserra]

@Boomslang, your project will be fun to watch.  I was thinking about domes when I mentioned multiple projectors and edge blending, but your setup has a straight seam which probably wouldn't require the edge blend. Curious to see how the seam looks since it will be directly in front of you.  Does the image have to be processed for the curved screen versus flat?  I'm guessing this will look stretched as you move away from the center of the projected image?

[Howard_Casto]

I'm thinking it wouldn't really matter in most games.  Typically you are going to look ahead all the time and only notice things to the side in your peripherals.  I'm a big fan of K.I.S.S. and I think what he's come up with will be the best solution because it's easy to manage.

[BadMouth]

At CES in January, LG will unveil a 55" TV that's flexible enough to be rolled up.
If picture quality and lag are halfway decent, it would be awesome for sim rigs.

[Superfrog]

I'm leaning to a projector based for my rig I wanna build when I'm done with my new house and my son is moving out, so I finally can build a MANCAVE 



Just like Remco Hitman did with his build, it's so awesome


http://www.thewayiplay.com/mainforum/index.php?PHPSESSID=d2686c85e7fe281eec97cbb40fd0c422&topic=2039.0

I think I don't like the bezels in front of me from the three monitors, so this projector setup look great to me.

[BadMouth]

It looks awesome for the videos, but you're not gaining any field of view which helps when approaching corners or seeing other cars beside you.

[Superfrog]

It looks awesome for the videos, but you're not gaining any field of view which helps when approaching corners or seeing other cars beside you.

I'm not sure, but you can setup the field to be the width of 3 monitors, what I did read somewhere... 

[jennifer]

  Decasing that thing looks UGLY, but It does Jive with a "Secret" Jenn project I'm working on.... Thanks for the heads up.

[Howard_Casto]

I'm leaning to a projector based for my rig I wanna build when I'm done with my new house and my son is moving out, so I finally can build a MANCAVE 



Just like Remco Hitman did with his build, it's so awesome


http://www.thewayiplay.com/mainforum/index.php?PHPSESSID=d2686c85e7fe281eec97cbb40fd0c422&topic=2039.0

The other problem is the fact that the rig is made for that one game.  If all you want to play is that game then it'll work great, but the bottom of the display being below the dash like that... it's not going to jive well with a lot of games, especially the ones without a cockpit view.

I think I don't like the bezels in front of me from the three monitors, so this projector setup look great to me.