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Author Topic: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?  (Read 1434 times)

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mimic

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Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« on: April 17, 2015, 10:13:00 pm »
I just got Licon brand Volcano switches with LEDs. Those have 6 pins.
Anyone knows what would I need in order for them to light up when I use coin in MAME?
I have an ipac4 with pinout that looks like the pinout in this thread. Can I wire the same way as in the thread mentioned?

Would the ledutil.exe mentioned work with the Hyper Spin as well?

TIA

mimic

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2015, 09:18:51 pm »
What am I doing wrong or illogical here:

I purchased 330 ohm resistor to hopefully lower the volatge from 5V to 2V or below (no idea how to figure out a correct value of a resistor, couldn't find anything straightforward on Google) Purchased 330 because it was suggested to either use 220 or 330 with Atari volcano switches. I chose higher value hopefully equals more resistance?
Anyway when I check the voltage coming out of my ipac 4 it show at around 4.8V, but when I add resistor inline of the 5V line instead of expected lower voltage it's still 4.8V!? What am I doing wrong here?
I checked resistor itself and it shows .324 when multimeter is switched to 2K ohm so it's not damaged (tried several)

Slippyblade

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2015, 09:35:09 pm »
You are measuring your resistance wrong.  Adding a resistor doesn't drop the voltage of the whole circuit, just parts beyond.


+5                Gnd
o----------------o

If you probe those two points you will get 5 volts.

+5                                            Gnd
o-------/\/\/\----0----/\/\/\-------------o
a                    b                             c

If you probe from a to c you will still get 5 volts because that is how much is dropped across the whole circuit.  But if the resistors are the same and you measure from a to b or b to c you will get 2.5v at each.

mimic

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2015, 09:58:24 pm »
I'm sorry I can't figure out what am I supposed to do to get the correct readout. Check the photo below and tell me what should I be probing to see what is the output voltage with the setup I have.
Black line with resistor is the 5V and green goes to the ground.

Thank you!

yotsuya

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2015, 10:14:02 pm »
I use 220 ohm resistors, myself. Never had an issue.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

mimic

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2015, 10:23:18 pm »
I use 220 ohm resistors, myself. Never had an issue.

Since no one responded to my original post so I couldn't  get a confirmation on the 220 I used 330 as a precaution, since I read both were used with Atari Volcano buttons. My crazy logic is that perhaps 330 = 3.3 of something that value deducted from 5V = somewhere around 2V or less to avoid burning out the LED bulb.

 :dizzy: <- can't find the smiley with the finger swirling around the temple

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2015, 10:35:15 pm »
Sorry, must have missed your original post.

The info in that thread is fine. I wouldn't worry about burning out your LEDs. I've done these light mods many, many times.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

mgb

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2015, 10:40:23 pm »
Not sure if you're still looking for this info or if someone ready posted it.
To figure the correct current limiting resistor to use with an LED:

Subtract the LED working voltage from the source voltage then divide by .02,
 Use that size resistor or larger

Typical LED working voltages (rough):
Red - 1.8V
Green/yellow - 2.2V
Blue/white/ purple - 3.6V

So if you wanted to light a red led with 5 volts:
5-1.8 = 3.2 divided by .02 = 160 ohm current limiting resistor.

mimic

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2015, 10:48:28 pm »
Sorry, must have missed your original post.

The info in that thread is fine. I wouldn't worry about burning out your LEDs. I've done these light mods many, many times.


Just wanted to make sure if the 330 are still ok? Since I already got them, I might as well use them, right? Just trying to figure out how to test it that everything will be connected correctly and what is the voltage going to be going to the LED.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 06:05:54 pm by mimic »

DietCoke

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2015, 10:56:12 pm »

I almost want to say no apologies needed but that would only sound like I was somehow let down or that I'm expecting apologies. Thank you of course for trying to be helpful!


Yep.  Yotsuya is a good egg, regardless of what everyone says :)

mimic

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2015, 10:57:41 pm »
Not sure if you're still looking for this info or if someone ready posted it.
To figure the correct current limiting resistor to use with an LED:

Subtract the LED working voltage from the source voltage then divide by .02,
 Use that size resistor or larger

Typical LED working voltages (rough):
Red - 1.8V
Green/yellow - 2.2V
Blue/white/ purple - 3.6V

So if you wanted to light a red led with 5 volts:
5-1.8 = 3.2 divided by .02 = 160 ohm current limiting resistor.

Let me make sure:5v - 2.2v =2.8V/.02 = 140? 2v = 3v /.02 = 150
so is my 330 resistor too high in resistance?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 11:02:09 pm by mimic »

mimic

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2015, 10:59:59 pm »

 Thank you of course for trying to be helpful!


Yep.  Yotsuya is a good egg, regardless of what everyone says :)

I was just about to modify that I think like it looks patronizing. No going back now with that quote!

mgb

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2015, 11:14:46 pm »
Not sure if you're still looking for this info or if someone ready posted it.
To figure the correct current limiting resistor to use with an LED:

Subtract the LED working voltage from the source voltage then divide by .02,
 Use that size resistor or larger

Typical LED working voltages (rough):
Red - 1.8V
Green/yellow - 2.2V
Blue/white/ purple - 3.6V

So if you wanted to light a red led with 5 volts:
5-1.8 = 3.2 divided by .02 = 160 ohm current limiting resistor.

Let me make sure:5v - 2.2v =2.8V/.02 = 140? 2v = 3v /.02 = 150
so is my 330 resistor too high in resistance?

If you are using 5 volts as your source, those leds will be dim.
If you parallel two of the 330ohm resistors and then series them in with the LED, you'd be using 165 ohm current limiting resistors

A 330 ohm resistor would be more like if you were powering the LED off 12 volt
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 11:16:40 pm by mgb »

mimic

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2015, 08:10:58 am »
I'm a little bit confused. Am I supposed to use 2 resistors in line? That's how at first it looked to me from the slippyblade's drawing but I thought he is just trying to explain something that I didn't know how to read, but now you saying something about "if you parallel two" ?

mgb

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2015, 09:01:34 am »
Putting two identical resistors in parallel will half the resistance.
I'm hoping to not confuse the matter I'm only saying that her to show that you could use the resistors you have if you don't want to order more.

After putting the two resistors in parallel you would then put them in series with the LED

mgb

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2015, 09:19:23 am »
In order to clarify what I meant,
Take two 330 ohm resistors and tie them together.
Just like the pic I've attached.

Then take that and put it in series with the led

mimic

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2015, 06:03:26 pm »
In order to clarify what I meant,
Take two 330 ohm resistors and tie them together.
Just like the pic I've attached.

Then take that and put it in series with the led

The photo definitely made it more understandable just one more "but" though... How attaching 2 resistors makes it better not worse? I don't know much about electronic components as you can see, so I'm just trying to apply some logic here.

I have connected the whole thing to 2 resistors now and I still get 4.8V!
I know slippyblade said  that I am measuring this all wrong because I'm getting the voltage across the whole circuit, but I just can't figure it out without somehow seeing it, what I'm doing wrong!?

How can I make sure the LED won't get the wrong voltage, Why can't I see that on the multimeter?

Dawgz Rule

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2015, 06:35:03 pm »
Looking at your picture, you are still measuring across the whole circuit which will give total output voltage.  In order to reduce voltage with resistors (a voltage divider) you will need a minimum of two resistors in series.

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/electronics-projects-how-to-divide-voltage-with-re.html

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2015, 06:38:37 pm »
In order to clarify what I meant,
Take two 330 ohm resistors and tie them together.
Just like the pic I've attached.

Then take that and put it in series with the led

The photo definitely made it more understandable just one more "but" though... How attaching 2 resistors makes it better not worse? I don't know much about electronic components as you can see, so I'm just trying to apply some logic here.

I have connected the whole thing to 2 resistors now and I still get 4.8V!
I know slippyblade said  that I am measuring this all wrong because I'm getting the voltage across the whole circuit, but I just can't figure it out without somehow seeing it, what I'm doing wrong!?

How can I make sure the LED won't get the wrong voltage, Why can't I see that on the multimeter?

How I do it:

Wire in a 220 resistor on the line going to 5v. Crimp on a quick disconnect.
Attach the QD to the + end of the Atari button LED terminal.
Hook up the other end to ground.
Turn the machine on, see the red lit button.
No worries.

Never burned out a LED button with the resistor connected.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

mimic

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2015, 06:55:52 pm »
Looking at your picture, you are still measuring across the whole circuit which will give total output voltage.  In order to reduce voltage with resistors (a voltage divider) you will need a minimum of two resistors in series.

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/electronics-projects-how-to-divide-voltage-with-re.html

Thank you! I have finally understood what I'm doing wrong. I was supposed to make a loop from V to Ground and then measure between 2 points on resistor, with 2 resistors in line right? I have finally got 2.4V on the read out. I still can't visually imagine how that works? How am I measuring accross the whole circuit? What happens to the current when it enters the resistor then my multimeter (when I was doing it the wrong way) and resistor being there doesn't affect the flow of current. (As you can see I have not pay much attention during "those" classes)

mimic

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2015, 06:57:31 pm »
In order to clarify what I meant,
Take two 330 ohm resistors and tie them together.
Just like the pic I've attached.

Then take that and put it in series with the led

The photo definitely made it more understandable just one more "but" though... How attaching 2 resistors makes it better not worse? I don't know much about electronic components as you can see, so I'm just trying to apply some logic here.

I have connected the whole thing to 2 resistors now and I still get 4.8V!
I know slippyblade said  that I am measuring this all wrong because I'm getting the voltage across the whole circuit, but I just can't figure it out without somehow seeing it, what I'm doing wrong!?

How can I make sure the LED won't get the wrong voltage, Why can't I see that on the multimeter?

How I do it:

Wire in a 220 resistor on the line going to 5v. Crimp on a quick disconnect.
Attach the QD to the + end of the Atari button LED terminal.
Hook up the other end to ground.
Turn the machine on, see the red lit button.
No worries.

Never burned out a LED button with the resistor connected.

Since I already have 330, can I at least test it with them? (I guess I'm going to have dimmer light, but at least I want it to see come alive)

mgb

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2015, 06:57:46 pm »
In order to clarify what I meant,
Take two 330 ohm resistors and tie them together.
Just like the pic I've attached.

Then take that and put it in series with the led

The photo definitely made it more understandable just one more "but" though... How attaching 2 resistors makes it better not worse? I don't know much about electronic components as you can see, so I'm just trying to apply some logic here.

I have connected the whole thing to 2 resistors now and I still get 4.8V!
I know slippyblade said  that I am measuring this all wrong because I'm getting the voltage across the whole circuit, but I just can't figure it out without somehow seeing it, what I'm doing wrong!?

How can I make sure the LED won't get the wrong voltage, Why can't I see that on the multimeter?

Not for nothing but reading it the wrong way multiple times will not get it done.
We're gonna kick it old school with a drawing attached.

Also here is a good primer on leds and current limiting resistors.
https://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/219

You can do it just as yotsoya said. It works for him, it'll work for you too.
The 220 ohm resistor will just make it a little less bright than using the 160 ohm
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 07:01:34 pm by mgb »

mimic

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2015, 07:27:23 pm »
In order to clarify what I meant,
Take two 330 ohm resistors and tie them together.
Just like the pic I've attached.

Then take that and put it in series with the led

The photo definitely made it more understandable just one more "but" though... How attaching 2 resistors makes it better not worse? I don't know much about electronic components as you can see, so I'm just trying to apply some logic here.

I have connected the whole thing to 2 resistors now and I still get 4.8V!
I know slippyblade said  that I am measuring this all wrong because I'm getting the voltage across the whole circuit, but I just can't figure it out without somehow seeing it, what I'm doing wrong!?

How can I make sure the LED won't get the wrong voltage, Why can't I see that on the multimeter?

Not for nothing but reading it the wrong way multiple times will not get it done.
We're gonna kick it old school with a drawing attached.

Also here is a good primer on leds and current limiting resistors.
https://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/219

You can do it just as yotsoya said. It works for him, it'll work for you too.
The 220 ohm resistor will just make it a little less bright than using the 160 ohm

Really Thank you for the effort and the drawing!

Here is what I'm still not understanding. I'm getting confused with all the numbers now It comes down to one question... in Ohms does higher number represents higher resistance or lower?

Because with my 330ohm resistor I'm seeing 2.4 V on multimeter, which would suggest that my LED is in danger of burning out, is that why you were suggesting to put 2 resistors in parallel?

(330 resistors is all I have at the moment, until I go to store and buy different ones)

mimic

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2015, 07:50:52 pm »
OMG, I bet that was painful with me. In the end I just wired 2 resistors to be on the safe side (the LED cost me too much to just risk burning them out)
Thanks everyone involved!

mgb

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2015, 07:56:15 pm »
There you go.
I understand you didn't want to risk burning out the LED.
These are lessons learned and next time you'll have a better understanding.
If you were to meter for voltage now at the resistor, with a lead on one side of resistor and the other lead on the other side, you should see around 3 volts there so that means the drop across the LED will be around 1.8 or so.

Looks good

To answer the other question, higher numbers mean higher resistance.
The higher the ohm number of the resistor, the larger the voltage drop across the resistor and the lower the voltage drop across the LED.
So with a 330 ohm resistor before the LED, the dimmer the LED as compared to the 160 ohm.
If you were to put something like a 100 ohm or smaller number resistor, then you would run the risk of blowing the LED.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 08:00:30 pm by mgb »

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2015, 08:09:49 pm »
Also too, because resistors aren't at perfect tolerances, you may want to read across the resistors to see the exact resistance.
Of course do that without them attached to anything and without power

mimic

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2015, 08:23:28 pm »
There you go.
I understand you didn't want to risk burning out the LED.
These are lessons learned and next time you'll have a better understanding.
If you were to meter for voltage now at the resistor, with a lead on one side of resistor and the other lead on the other side, you should see around 3 volts there so that means the drop across the LED will be around 1.8 or so.

Looks good

To answer the other question, higher numbers mean higher resistance.
The higher the ohm number of the resistor, the larger the voltage drop across the resistor and the lower the voltage drop across the LED.
So with a 330 ohm resistor before the LED, the dimmer the LED as compared to the 160 ohm.
If you were to put something like a 100 ohm or smaller number resistor, then you would run the risk of blowing the LED.

I got 1.5V on the LED and 2.6V On the resistor.
 I have definitely learned something today! (If I have only pay as much attention in school as I paid in the Arcades!)

Unfortunately... SAGA CONTINUES!!!
I tried to see if I can get flashing lights in Atari games like in the arcades and... nothing!! How do I setup MAME now to get the flashing lights on coin up?

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2015, 08:30:42 pm »
The flashing only works with games that supported it. You'll need to use ledutil or LED Blinky to make it work. 
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2015, 08:43:23 pm »
The flashing only works with games that supported it. You'll need to use ledutil or LED Blinky to make it work.

Right. Doesn't MAME come with ledutil.exe? Is see it in the folder. I tried Centipede and Tempest I don't remember if they had flashing start button or not? I'll try Xevious. If I find a game that does, then it should just start flashing?

How about non supported games? Can I make them for example to lit up and stay on until I press start? Is that a possibility with let's say LEDblinky? (even better if ledutil can do it on it's own)

mimic

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2015, 09:16:40 pm »
Holly crap it's ALIVE!! It totally works. All I had to do is to start ledutil.exe prior to starting the emulator and it worked with Galaxian,Tempest, Xevious, Dig-Dug!

Last question remains can I make those LEDs light up with other games either through ledutil (probably unlikely) or at least with LEDblinky ($)
Another question would be how can I have the ledutil launch before launching Hyperspin on it's own? Add it to startup?

EDIT: Just tested Centipede and Warlords. Interestingly Warlords flashes all the leds on the keyboard. Any way To light up 4 Atari volcanos to get 4 players flashing? Or I could wire PL3 to PL4 LEDs and just push buttons wires would be wired to their own start terminals on ipac? I think I just answered my own question as I was typing.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 10:17:00 pm by mimic »

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2015, 11:52:32 pm »
I have a shortcut to ledutil in my start menu startup folder.

And like I said, the signal to flash the LEDs has to be coded in the game.
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mimic

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2015, 11:48:56 pm »
Last question what is the size of the pads what is the size in gauges (that's what I see on eBay) of quick disconnects I need. For Licon if possible not Cherry (I don't know if they're exactly the same size or not)
TIA

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2015, 11:55:40 pm »
I'm not sure I'm understanding your question but the quick connects on your volcano switches look to be .110

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2015, 12:07:12 am »
If you not understanding my question, then I guess I misunderstanding something as always!
When I do search on eBay for quick disconnects then the value provided is most often in gauges, but now that my question wasn't clear it made me think that I'm misreading something and that they are providing sizes of the other end, for the wire size, not the spade size!
Anyway you have answered my question and I have to look for .110
Thanks

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2015, 12:55:50 am »
Oh. I know what you meant now.
Yeah there is a quick connect size of .110 for the tabs on your buttons but there is also a gauge size for the crimp to the wire.
Typically the red ones will work fine as they cover something like 18 awg to 22 awg

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2015, 01:26:02 am »
The gauge of a QD refers to the size wire(s) that the QD is designed to accept and properly crimp onto.



All three of the QDs above have the same size terminals (0.187" or 0.250"?) but are designed for different gauge wires.

    Yellow = 12-10 gauge

    Blue = 16-14 gauge

    Red = 22-18 gauge

Trying to use red QDs for an 18 gauge daisy chain ground probably won't work because both wires might not fit into the barrel -- use a blue one instead.

Trying to crimp a 30 gauge wire in a large yellow QD will almost certainly not work due to the size difference.     ;D


Scott
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 01:31:57 am by PL1 »

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Re: Atari Volcano buttons wiring to MAME?
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2015, 08:58:46 am »
Yeah that's a better answer than mine.
But there is also the .110 size.

Don't forget, crimp connector are meant to be used with stranded wire