Owners of Aimtrak Lightguns with recoil - worth it?

[delt31]

Videos of the recoil are limited on youtube and rather underwhelming. Wondering if it's worth to get it with my aimtrak.  Any thoughts from owners?  If I don't, I want to make sure I didn't make the wrong move....

[eds1275]

I DON'T have it, but I don't feel like I'm missing anything.

[markc74]

I Do have the recoil kit and think it's pretty sweet paired with a 36v power supply. You probably wouldn't want it to me much stronger as it would make your hand ache after a while.

That being said - factoring in the expense of the kit, the search for a decent power supply and the hassle of wiring it up I'd only recommend it if you really miss the recoil.

[delt31]

what is the stock power supply and was it not enough?  Does the gun kick back each time you shoot it and are the two wires (extra one for the power) annoying to have to deal with when playing? Does it weigh the gun down at all?  If you have any videos of it shooting that would be great...

[TapeWormInYourGut]

I modded some arcade guns with aimtraks. It matters if you are trying to capture the arcade feel for games like TimeCrisis. Without recoil, it feels like I am playing on a home console which imo just isn't the same. I wanted to get as close as possible to the arcade games that I loved playing.

If you plan on playing games with less action, like duck hunt or point blank, then it won't matter. Recoil needs to be off otherwise the gun will move a tiny bit. Those games require perfect accuracy. HotD, Time Crisis, and Area 51 are fine and more enjoyable with recoil.

To be more blatant, I probably would not have gotten any guns if I could not have them with recoil. So yeah it definitely makes it or breaks it. It depends on whether the cost is worth it to you or not. However, I don't have the actual Ultimarc guns. I just have the aimtrak hardware in my arcade guns.

[TapeWormInYourGut]

Ultimarc states to use a 12 or 24v power supply. People have reported the solenoid getting really hot with 36v and higher. Excessive heat can destroy the solenoid.

It doesn't come with a power supply. You have to install the kit and wire the power yourself. I bought a separate 24v 6A generic power supply. Each gun will need about 1.7-2A

The solenoid on the aimtrak guns are internal without any external sliding mechanism. It looks the same except you will hear and feel the thump of the recoil. This video sums it up:

[Xiaou2]

From that video... its clear that the effect is really aweful compared to the original TimeCrisis gun FFB.
The coil is not powerful as the original... and because theres little mass involved.. theres very little kickback feel.  The sound is horrible to boot. Far higher in pitch... its ear piercing.

 In relative terms... it would be like placing your back against your house's front door...and having someone throw both a golfball and a bowling ball... at the front of the door.  The golfball wont be felf much after the forces get absorbed into the materials.   But the bowling ball hit could actually force your body away from the door... from the mass shock force.  Yoy certainly will feel the bowling ball , deep into your body on impact!

 TimeCrisis guns use a sliding reloading like mechanism... very similar to the nature of a real gun.  The weighted + vectored forces make it feel like you are really firing a weapon... and it's highly satisfying.  It also ups the challenge, as just like a real weapon, the kickback causes your hand to move... thus can make multiple target aiming off ...if your not good enough to maintain control.

 TC also has a reload +  duck.  Foot pedal switch.  You really want / need both of these for an awsome experience. .. and its very much worth it.  A buddy got me totally hooked on the "timed" mode. (Rather than tbe story mode)   In this mode, you work on perfecting your accuracy in killing the enemy. You get bonus time and pts, for taking them out quickly.  This makes it really fun to compete against friends to see whom can get the best times/score... and is even fun trying to top your own attempts.

 After playing with the real TC guns... these cheap immitations are simply pathetic in comparison.
Even t2 guns feel and react far better.

[delt31]

Definitely looking for arcade authentic so what guns with recoil do you recommend if not these that work with mame?  Only heard about top gun and heard they suck.

[Xiaou2]

I happened to get a set of Wired TopGuns.

 Took a long time to figure out how to get them working properly..  but afterwards, they worked great.   A far cry from the Wretched Act-Labs guns that I wasted my money on.

 The biggest problem with the Topguns, is making sure the bars are in the correct orientations.   Its easy to mess up the left from right, and or if upside down  (if memory serves me right).   Next big issue, is external light sources.  If there is a really bright light nearby... and or bright sunlight... it can effect the calibration and or the whole guns accuracy.

 The force feedback on the thing is pretty lame as well.  But far cheaper, and is a packed-in solution.   Its easy enough to disable...  but more to the point... probably could be hacked to utilize a real coil, using a relay+power supply.

 You also have to stand about 4ft away minimally, I believe.  HOWEVER,  someone popped a wide angle lens over the front of the guns... and was able to shorten the distance... and still maintained accuracy.


 As far as I recall... the other style of guns are similar to the WII's remote.   I believe you need a constant shown cursor on the screen... which takes the whole challenge out of gun games... making it worthless, IMO.  Also, if you ever messed with a WIImote... you know how easily the thing loses accuracy... especially if you move around, and or drop the gun out of the trackers range.

 None of these solutions are perfect / great...  but Topguns are at least a very good working solution, until someone makes an better technology for LCD style displays.

 Edit:

 If I had the means, Id buy a set of real TC guns, insert the Topgun electrical internals... and hack some electronic solution to use the TCs coils + slideing mechanism.   

 Barring not being able to afford the real gun assemblies... Id get pics on the assembly, and build a replica of the mechanisms... using the same coil and power levels for the FFB... and again, use the Topgun as the tracker.


 Ive think Ive heard of some others getting an arcade CRT monitor to work with real arcade guns... using a special rare? and expensive card.  Not sure, as I hadnt kept up on that info / progress.    Supposedly, the same MFG. was about to produce an ultrasonic based gun... but it never got to market AFAIK.

[pbj]

Yep, you get a wide angle jelly lens for an iPhone and attach it to the top gun (I used electrical tape) and you can shorten the distance to about three feet.

Light gun games are fairly meh.  I'd rather have the $60 back honestly.

[Xiaou2]

Yep, you get a wide angle jelly lens for an iPhone and attach it to the top gun (I used electrical tape) and you can shorten the distance to about three feet.

Light gun games are fairly meh.  I'd rather have the $60 back honestly.

 I disagree.

 Time Crisis  (using the Time Attack mode),  is great fun. Addictive, and challenging.
 Area 51  -  Is fun, especially to see how big of a "Streak" you can attain.
 Shooting Gallery (Sega Master System) - Is to date, still one of my top favorite games.
 Missile Defense 3D (Sega Master System + 3D glasses) - Is a fun and frantic, Awesome experience, period.

 Point Blanc - These look like they were modeled after Shooting Gallery.
 Lethal Enforcers - I remember having fun playing it.. even though I never got far.

 Exidy's gun games - Some of these are quite fun and humorous.

 Im sure Im forgetting some gems...  But those are the ones I played most, and enjoyed them immensely.


 Not sure if anyone simulated that Namco game with the real Can that breaks apart...   but that was great fun too.


 Now... if your talking about the mindless Zombie games... then I agree.   I never cared for the "Dead" games, nor many of the similar pay to continue games... that didnt have at lease some element of challenge & skill reward system.

 And of course... if your playing with a Cross-Hair on... then sure... every shooting games going to be  "Meh".

[delt31]

appreciate the detailed feedback.  You mentioned top guns - I did a search and only found this one

EMS Top Gun 3.  Is that what you're talking about?  I did some research and you apparently need to connect 4 sensors to the screen which would really junk up my cab (I was hoping for one bar that goes on top like aimtrak).  I do LOVE the fact it kicks back slide action like time crisis.

I'm def into the light gun games you mentioned so we share a similar passion for them. I just want to get the best gun that HAS recoil.  As mentioned by someone earlier - I feel like without any kickback, it's going to feel like console shooting which is lame.

[TimeCrisis]

to add in to Xiaou2's post, there are about 20 high quality light gun games out there that can be played on PC, in order from best to worst they are

Time Crisis 1
Time Crisis II
Time Crisis 3
Time Crisis 3: Rescue Mission: - lasts 20 minutes so a game in it's on right.
Time Crisis 1: Special - about 15 minutes long.
The House of the Dead 2
The House of the Dead 1
Crisis Zone
Confidential Mission
The House of The Dead  - Overkill
Time Crisis - Project Titan
Ghost Squad
Vampire Night
The House of The Dead III
The Lost World
Ninja Assault
The Maze of the Kings
Virtua Cop 1
Virtua Cop 2

Silent Hill - although this game may be considered to be quite poor.

Time Crisis 4 - actually need a ps3 and use guncon 3

as far as difficulty is concerned, sadly that is an issue with all these games, there is no modern checkpoint system, I tried to think of putting a checkpoint system in place via save states, but it just got too complicated to implement, the only thing you could strive for is seeing how far you can get on a certain amount of credits, sadly at whatever point you run out of credits you'd have to play through the game again from the start, but it's the best that can be done at the moment.

what would have been awesome is if they made it that in some sections of time crisis, if you shot 8 enemies in a row without missing it would grant you an extra live, and you would survive through the game like that, sadly that's not in effect.

and on the topic of recoil, i would advise you to read over this thread, where someone managed to use an arcade gun just like the namco guns and put an aimtrack in it.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,119610.240.html

I am currently trying to do the same thing, but I am stuck trying to make it.

Would that wide angle lens trick work with aimtrak, as currently I have to sit 45" away from the screen, I would like to be much closer.

actually Xiaou2 time crisis 5 uses 'internal' recoil now as well, I think you could get the same amount of power from internal recoil, the sliding mechanism is more for looks, but in the case of the ultimarc recoil kit, that kit itself may not be that great, I would not know, but i believe its immaterial whether the gun kicks back or not, that was mentioned in the thread I linked.

also as I said in that thread arcadeguns are upgrading their guns to allow for a recoil system, both USB and mains powered, more details are in that thread, looks like they are selling the guns now and in black, but we will have to wait until the recoil kit is provided, but to my limited knowledge it appears there is not very much space left in the gun to fit a decent sized recoil, you can see how much space there is by the gun product page, it may end up being just like ultimarcs recoil kit, perhaps even worse, time will tell.

[abkaz]

I think Namco got it right with the physical feel of the recoil + visual look of blowback + duck/dodging by stomping on a pedal. Is it worth it on a DIY cabinet? It depends. If you go the "real arcade gun" route, you're looking at a power supply ($20ish), the real arcade gun & pedal ($40 - $60 on ebay), AimTrak ($45 + shipping) +AimTrack Recoil kit (another $25?) + various supplies for wiring and cable management. You can potentially do without the AimTrak recoil board if you can decipher the PCB in the "real arcade gun". But even without that you're still over $100 per gun, and that's on the low side with quite a bit of tinkering. But we see lots of people around here spending a lot more than that just to play a single game so it's all relative.

Personally, I wouldn't do a light gun without the recoil w/ blowback and pedal.

[eds1275]

Question for those with the aimtrak recoil guns - is the recoil just like, every time you pull the trigger? or does the game send a signal to it if you have ammo?

[AndyWarne]

From that video... its clear that the effect is really aweful compared to the original TimeCrisis gun FFB.
The coil is not powerful as the original... and because theres little mass involved.. theres very little kickback feel.  The sound is horrible to boot. Far higher in pitch... its ear piercing.

Are you reviewing the product solely from a video? This hardly seems reasonable. The people who actually have the gun with the recoil kit seem to like it. There is plenty of kickback and some people prefer to reduce the kickback, which is adjustable in software.

[pbj]

Question for those with the aimtrak recoil guns - is the recoil just like, every time you pull the trigger?

Yes

or does the game send a signal to it if you have ammo?

No


I know there's little to be done about it, but it's beyond stupid in practice.

[gamer83]

the only way to get the recoil to stop firing when out of ammo is to use mame hooker and a serial port.Only games that originally had a recoil signal in the arcade will work this way.
I can personally say after using happ "recoil" guns for over a year,Im happy that i decided to build a set of guns with blowback.It really adds to gameplay of some good arcade gun games that never had it. I.e. hotd area51 max force,lethal enforcers aged pretty badly,but play it with a gun that has blowback,heh heh.virtua cop,the list goes on.
I have always liked arcade gun games,I would spend alot of time on them in the cades as a youngster.If you like playing arcade gun games and will actually use the guns,yea its worth it.if you want to have guns on the machine just cause,and will probably barely or never use them,I would say you can find a better way to spend $300+ on your cabinet.

As for the aimtrak recoil solenoid,I made a demo video of it in action inside a "Real arcade gun".it is pretty impressive for its small size.the video posted above hardly does it justiceByoac gun demo:

[TimeCrisis]

I thought making a simple program in the ultimarc recoil kit software that counts the number of bullets you have fired, and once that count it up it doesn't fire the solenoid until the reload button is pressed, it would be even easier for time crisis as you only allow the recoil to fire whe the reload button is held down.

I don't see why this can't be added simply in software, also I only play 1 lightgun game in mame anyway, every other is PS2 emulator, demul etc.

don't know much about happ recoil, is the recoil weaker than the namco ones or something,gamer83 would you say the real arcade solenoid is much better than ultimarcs, or are they both pretty good, also are you powered ultimarcs with mains power, because if so that shoudl be noted.