Custom Cabinet Legality Question

[aphraxad]

Hey guys,
   I built my first MAME cabinet last year and I'm currently in the process of trying to open a video game themed pub here in Finland.  My plan was to build 5 more cabinets and have free classic games in the bar.  My question is, how can I do this legally?  Is there a place that I can get MAME compatible roms?  Or if I do PCB builds, am I above board if I buy those jamma boards with a bunch of classics on them?

I want all of my machines to have variety of free to play games, and have a uniform look that matches the bar interior, but at the same time, I want to make sure i'm not going to get in any trouble. 

[yotsuya]

Hey guys,
   I built my first MAME cabinet last year and I'm currently in the process of trying to open a video game themed pub here in Finland.  My plan was to build 5 more cabinets and have free classic games in the bar.  My question is, how can I do this legally?  Is there a place that I can get MAME compatible roms?  Or if I do PCB builds, am I above board if I buy those jamma boards with a bunch of classics on them?

I want all of my machines to have variety of free to play games, and have a uniform look that matches the bar interior, but at the same time, I want to make sure i'm not going to get in any trouble.

Legally, your best bet is to just try and find 6 original cabinets.

Using MAME or any multiboard using MAME isn't technically legal. I don't know how strictly they enforce things in Finland, so you may never get into trouble, but if you go letter-of-the-law, you shouldn't be doing it.

Cue PinballJames in 3..2..1..

[Generic Eric]

I want all of my machines to have variety of free to play games, and have a uniform look that matches the bar interior.

You don't need MAME for this.  Find 5 or 6 games that have freeplay.  Build custom cabinets.  Done.

[JDFan]

As Yotsuya mentioned the xx in 1 PCB are actually not technically legal (though many are used that way and it's doubtful anyone would press the issue - esp. if you are using them for freeplay) so would be about the same as setting up a MAME system as far as legalities go.

One option to keep it legal that would work would be to use the Jakks Plug and play game units that have several classic games - since they are sold for use and can be adapted to be used with arcade buttons and joysticks with a small amount of soldering to the units. Another option would be getting an older Console or PC (XBOX 360 etc.) that has some arcade games released for it and use those as the systems in the builds.

[pbj]

Maybe if you're planning on opening a business you ought to go talk to a lawyer?

 

[Generic Eric]

I heard a radio advertisement today.  The only thing I remember is "ping pong and 60 of your  favorite arcade games."

Immediately thought of 60 in 1 pcb.

The local comic/game shop has an icade. 

YMMV may very, but I think it's a bad idea.

[BadMouth]

Laws vary depending on where you live.  Here in the U.S. one city can even be different from the next.

I wouldn't put too much stock in legal advice from people outside of Finland.

I'd ask a game distributor about local permits, taxes & such, then research how bootleg machines have been handled in Finland.

[keilmillerjr]

I'd seek out original jamma pcb's. Attach a switch to the coin reject and wire it with the coin switch. It can then accept either coins or press the coin reject for a free game. Both perfectly legal! You might want to look for a neo geo mvs. You can run multiple games at once, and switch the games in a similar fashion as nes or sega genesis. Best of all, its legal and has really awesome games.

[ABACABB]

Not all that sure MAME roms are still illegal to download in the U.S.  I remember reading recently an article about downloading digital content and some items were removed from the list.  I'm no lawyer but it says something to the effect - it is no longer prohibited to download digital media in which the original hardware the game ran on is obsolete.  That pretty much covers all MAME roms. 

Ahhhh.... found the link  http://www.copyright.gov/1201/docs/librarian_statement_01.html

Here is a section from the article:

Code: [Select]

The Register of Copyrights and her staff have conducted a careful and extensive evaluation of the entire record in the proceeding and determined that proponents of exemptions have demonstrated that the prohibition on circumventing access controls has had a substantial adverse effect on the ability of people to make noninfringing uses of four particular classes of copyrighted works. The Register has given me her analysis and recommendation, and today I have signed a document providing that persons making noninfringing uses of these four classes of works will not be subject to the prohibition against circumventing access controls during the next three years. The four classes of works are: 1.Compilations consisting of lists of Internet locations blocked by commercially marketed filtering software applications that are intended to prevent access to domains, websites or portions of websites, but not including lists of Internet locations blocked by software applications that operate exclusively to protect against damage to a computer or computer network or lists of Internet locations blocked by software applications that operate exclusively to prevent receipt of email.

2.Computer programs protected by dongles that prevent access due to malfunction or damage and which are obsolete.

3.Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and which require the original media or hardware as a condition of access.

4.Literary works distributed in ebook format when all existing ebook editions of the work (including digital text editions made available by authorized entities) contain access controls that prevent the enabling of the ebook's read-aloud function and that prevent the enabling of screen readers to render the text into a specialized format.
 Two of these classes of works are very similar to the two classes of works that were exempted three years ago, but they have been modified to take into account the somewhat different cases that were presented to the Register this year. One of these two new classes of works will provide some relief to libraries and archives in their preservation activities, and the other will assist the blind and visually disabled in their ability to gain meaningful access to digital materials.
Any lawyers in the house care to comment on this?

[ChanceKJ]

...One option to keep it legal that would work would be to use the Jakks Plug and play game units that have several classic games - since they are sold for use and can be adapted to be used with arcade buttons and joysticks with a small amount of soldering to the units....

Agreed!!! That's a great idea.

Aphraxad, here, look at this: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,136983.0.html

There are a ton of these kits with different games available. Simple, all free play, and you'd be good to go. You could even wire the buttons up to a generic plug like I did so you could swap them out between cabs if you like.

I'd say this is your best and cheapest bet, with the least amount of work.  5v USB for the win.

[aphraxad]

Thanks for the pointers guys.  I'm not so worried about it that i'm going to spend a bunch of money having a lawyer look into it.  I'm just searching for options to have my machine able to play a variety of legitimately purchased titles.  I'm just trying to figure out the cheapest way to get a custom machine to play above board software that I purchased. 

[stavros693000]

in my neck of the woods here in australia the local time zone (arcade) had an old cab converted to mame with hyperspin, i couldnt believe it when i saw it they where charging $1 per play (mutha fookers).
anyway it i noticed recently it has been removed (not making money or got in trouble )

but just build some mame cabs with maybe some other emus and controllers and like you said free play for all i pretty sure you cant get in to much trouble if your not profiting from them....and like someone else mentioned NO ONE POLICES this ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- anyway.
go for it i think its a fantastic idea.....i always thought it would be a great idea to but one in an office or some sort of buisness for customers to play while they wait (free of charge of course)

[IAmDotorg]

Any lawyers in the house care to comment on this?

That's a decision relative to the anti-circumvention clauses of the DMCA, which makes it illegal to remove DRM and other restrictions (like jailbreaking your phone, etc). They're just establishing a set of conditions in which the mere act of stripping digital protection out of a system isn't illegal. It doesn't actually have anything to do with what this thread is talking about, or the legality of using publically anything.

Example -- if I told you how to strip the DRM off a BluRay disc, even telling you how to do that is illegal. But if you knew how to do it, and did it, it doesn't suddenly make showing that movie in public legal.

The one place this probably does impact MAME is in the case of people reverse engineering the ROM encryption on games that are no longer commercially available. Creating a MAME module for running those encrypted ROMs would be illegal under the DMCA without an exception like this. But it has no impact on the legality of you using it.

Edit: I should add, IANAL, but a significant portion of my job deals with IP rights and soul-crushingly-long meetings with IP attorneys.

[RoyalScam]

Even if with 'Legal' ROMS you can't have MAME in a public location.

From MAMEDEV.org;

Q. Can I put an arcade cabinet running MAME in a public location?
A. No. This this a commercial use of MAME and is prohibited by the license. Even if you don't charge money, putting a machine in a public location is "operating" an arcade machine and falls under commercial rules in most locations.

Regards,
Scam

[matsadona]

What about a couple of PC's running this webpage? https://archive.org/details/internetarcade

Here in Sweden the biggest problem is a government xxxx controlling all amusement games with the official intention to prevent hazardous environments for youngsters and minimize gambling addiction. Which is pure BS if you ask me - it is just about the money. I.e. the government wants to keep the monopoly over poker games etc (since it is a lucrative business) and videogames and pinball machines was affected by this law as well as a collateral damage.
So in order to have an arcade machine you need to pay an annual fee that is ridiculous, which eventually killed this industry more or less completely since no one can afford having an old classic in a café just for fun (since the income will probably be less than the fee).
So putting up a MAME machine wouldn't make any legal acts here I think, but if you don't report it and pay the fee all hell will break loose... 

[pbj]

In the thread, moronic opinions about American law given to someone in Finland.

 

[yotsuya]

In the thread, moronic opinions about American law given to someone in Finland.

 

Taking almost 24 hours to respond? You disappoint me, Jimmy.

[MTPPC]

Just buy broken boards for all the games you want and throw them in the cabinet where the game is being emulated. You will be in compliance with international copyright rules and standards.

[IAmDotorg]

Just buy broken boards for all the games you want and throw them in the cabinet where the game is being emulated. You will be in compliance with international copyright rules and standards.

Or you can buy a loaf of bread, a quart of milk and a stick of butter and throw them in the cabinet. You'll be just as much in compliance with international copyright rules and standards!

[MTPPC]

Just buy broken boards for all the games you want and throw them in the cabinet where the game is being emulated. You will be in compliance with international copyright rules and standards.

Or you can buy a loaf of bread, a quart of milk and a stick of butter and throw them in the cabinet. You'll be just as much in compliance with international copyright rules and standards!

WRONG. If you legally own the ROMS, you may use them in any way you wish. It's called fair use. Perhaps you will be in breach of MAME's license terms, but that has never been an issue for anybody. Just look at the 60-in-1's EVERYWHERE on location. Have you ever seen one shut down or harrassed in any way.

The ones you need to worry about are NAMCO (who BTW just shut down the Sam's Club Black Friday $1000 60-in-1 cocktail special that was advertised to all the members). BTW, I'm pretty sure that the legitimacy of MAME's license agreement has never been adjudicated because I'm pretty sure that the entire project is a violation of the DMCA. And that's why they contort around the IP issues the way they do.

[IAmDotorg]

Your wishful thinking does not, unfortunately, have any legal weight behind it.

Fair use doesn't apply. In fact, its not even remotely relevant. Its sort of a weird term to even throw out in relation to the question.

The fact is:
- MAME use in any commercial environment is illegal -- anywhere in the world. There's not even the slightest smidge of gray on that question.
- There is *no* "board ownership" exclusion for the legality of running ROMs, even if MAME was legal. That is extremely well established in *most* jurisdictions. When cabs were sold, the license for the software on the board is coupled to the board. Not just any board, the exact board.

[MTPPC]

Your wishful thinking does not, unfortunately, have any legal weight behind it.

Fair use doesn't apply. In fact, its not even remotely relevant. Its sort of a weird term to even throw out in relation to the question.

The fact is:
- MAME use in any commercial environment is illegal -- anywhere in the world. There's not even the slightest smidge of gray on that question.
- There is *no* "board ownership" exclusion for the legality of running ROMs, even if MAME was legal. That is extremely well established in *most* jurisdictions. When cabs were sold, the license for the software on the board is coupled to the board. Not just any board, the exact board.

Again, you a wrong. If you own a legal copy of the ROMS, you can emulate them. The MAME license is moot. Now go cry to your devs.

[IAmDotorg]

Again, you can believe anything you want. I'm not wrong, that's commonly known, you can look it up with some very simple web searches, or you can keep stomping your feet and playing make believe.

[MTPPC]

Again, you can believe anything you want. I'm not wrong, that's commonly known, you can look it up with some very simple web searches, or you can keep stomping your feet and playing make believe.

Are you posting into the mirror? You sure haven't shown a single link that validates the MAME license. Perhaps you are talking about the MAME trademark.

[yotsuya]

Your wishful thinking does not, unfortunately, have any legal weight behind it.

Fair use doesn't apply. In fact, its not even remotely relevant. Its sort of a weird term to even throw out in relation to the question.

The fact is:
- MAME use in any commercial environment is illegal -- anywhere in the world. There's not even the slightest smidge of gray on that question.
- There is *no* "board ownership" exclusion for the legality of running ROMs, even if MAME was legal. That is extremely well established in *most* jurisdictions. When cabs were sold, the license for the software on the board is coupled to the board. Not just any board, the exact board.

Interesting points.

I would think this is akin to taking your CD collection, throwing it in a jukebox, putting in a bar, then saying "I don't have to pay ASCAP because I own those CDs!".

[pbj]

MAME itself is illegal

 

[MTPPC]

Interesting points.

I would think this is akin to taking your CD collection, throwing it in a jukebox, putting in a bar, then saying "I don't have to pay ASCAP because I own those CDs!".

http://www.ascap.com/~/media/files/pdf/licensing/classes/jukebox%20digital%20audio%20license%20-%20for%20reference%20only.pdf
What are the "requirements" for CD and record jukeboxes?
BTW, the link applies to digital streaming and not CDs.

ETA: ASCAP? I think they meant ASHATS!

[michelevit]

I dont think anyone has ever gotten into trouble by building a mame cabinet.

[BadMouth]

What are the "requirements" for CD and record jukeboxes?

I'm interested in playing music in my restaurant or other business. I know that I need permission for live performances. Do I need permission if I am using only CD's, records, tapes, radio or TV?


Yes, you will need permission to play records or tapes in your establishment. Permission for radio and television transmissions in your business is not needed if the performance is by means of public communication of TV or radio transmissions by eating, drinking, retail or certain other establishments of a certain size which use a limited number of speakers or TVs, and if the reception is not further transmitted (for example, from one room to another) from the place in which it is received, and there is no admission charge. Your local ASCAP licensing manager can discuss your needs and advise how ASCAP can help you.

.....and they do have people that make their living busting restaurants and bars who don't have a license.

MAMEDev and old arcade companies on the other hand.......
all you'll get is a message board tongue lashing.

The worst you'll get in the U.S. is a local tax guy telling you that you need a permit.
(again, this varies depending on where you live)

[jennifer]

      Why give the games away??.... people will pay to play, that's the whole premise behind coin op. Go buy yourself some real (licensed) cabs for your start up, and go put that Mame in your basement or garage or something.

[Generic Eric]

What are the "requirements" for CD and record jukeboxes?

I'm interested in playing music in my restaurant or other business. I know that I need permission for live performances. Do I need permission if I am using only CD's, records, tapes, radio or TV?


Yes, you will need permission to play records or tapes in your establishment. Permission for radio and television transmissions in your business is not needed if the performance is by means of public communication of TV or radio transmissions by eating, drinking, retail or certain other establishments of a certain size which use a limited number of speakers or TVs, and if the reception is not further transmitted (for example, from one room to another) from the place in which it is received, and there is no admission charge. Your local ASCAP licensing manager can discuss your needs and advise how ASCAP can help you.

.....and they do have people that make their living busting restaurants and bars who don't have a license.

MAMEDev and old arcade companies on the other hand.......
all you'll get is a message board tongue lashing.

The worst you'll get in the U.S. is a local tax guy telling you that you need a permit.
(again, this varies depending on where you live)

I dunno man.  Did you see what they did to that guy that was selling loose cigarettes?

[Haze]

I don't know why people insist on trolling the MAME license and claiming it's not valid and therefore taking that as meaning you can do what you want.

Based on actual legal advice I was given a while back.

1) If the MAME license is valid, then it's legally binding, and if you're to stay legal you must abide by it (ie no commercial use)
2) If the MAME license is NOT valid then the software cannot be used at all, by anybody (ie no commercial use)

At no point does either scenario result in MAME being free to use in a commercial environment.  It's our software, and even if the license was deemed invalid the copyright of each component would be held by the authors of that component, who would need to grant you permission to use it (ie provide you with a valid license)

The ONLY correct answer to this question is 'buy the original game boards, and operate those in the cabinet'

If you want multi-games there are a handful of legal ones available (Namco's official Pacman Anniversary boards ( http://flyers.arcade-museum.com/?page=flyer&db=videodb&id=5833&image=1 )
Taito's official Qix / Space Invaders hybrid ( http://flyers.arcade-museum.com/?page=flyer&db=videodb&id=3576&image=1 )
The Donkey Kong 3-in-1 Namco put out ( http://flyers.arcade-museum.com/?page=flyer&db=videodb&id=4278&image=1 )
Konami 80's AC Special
and if you're not bothered about them actually being classic games, there are things like SemiCom's XESS New Revolution

The xx-in-1 boards, NeoGeo multicarts etc. are all unlicensed, and rather poor quality too, makes me cringe when I see somewhere running one and it attempts to play the Gyruss music.  If you want to be 100% above board and legal you simply can't use them.  If you don't care, that's your business and a risk you've decided to take, but bootlegs are bootlegs.

[lilshawn]

what if one were to take a board of every one of the "60 in 1" game titles on it and place them all in the bottom of the cabinet.

since you have a board of every game in there, does that magically make it legal then? ...you would have 60 licences worth of hardware (poorly emulated or not) 

[Generic Eric]

It seems to me, the reason these posts keep dragging on is, once the correct answer is presented and OP [in any of the hundred of random threads] says he isn't that concerned with the Tax Man, or the 50 shades of color  everyone calls the "grey area," other folks try to find ways to rationalize it.

holy run on sentence

As arcade enthusiast, what we should present here is:

If you want to portray an authentic arcade atmosphere, use original cabinets.  You can restore them or not.  If you can't find an original cabinet, build a replica. 9 out of 10 people won't notice the control panel was off a degree.  You indicated you wanted it to match your establishments decor.  Build 5 of your chosen design and install the games.

Have Street fighter tournaments.  Mortal Kombat Mondays.  Truxton Tuesdays. 

Watch the documentary 100 Yen  http://www.100yenfilm.com/  There is a guy that has shelves full of boards that people select and he connects them and they play.  Its real cool. 

You'll find that arcade emulation is just a gateway to another expensive collection/hobby/lifestyle.  Just don't run a multicade in your bar.  It is tacky & as noted, the emulation is lacking in many cases. 

[lilshawn]

It seems to me, the reason these posts keep dragging on is, once the correct answer is presented and OP [in any of the hundred of random threads] says he isn't that concerned with the Tax Man, or the 50 shades of color  everyone calls the "grey area," other folks try to find ways to rationalize it.

holy run on sentence

As arcade enthusiast, what we should present here is:

If you want to portray an authentic arcade atmosphere, use original cabinets.  You can restore them or not.  If you can't find an original cabinet, build a replica. 9 out of 10 people won't notice the control panel was off a degree.  You indicated you wanted it to match your establishments decor.  Build 5 of your chosen design and install the games.

Have Street fighter tournaments.  Mortal Kombat Mondays.  Truxton Tuesdays. 

Watch the documentary 100 Yen  http://www.100yenfilm.com/  There is a guy that has shelves full of boards that people select and he connects them and they play.  Its real cool. 

You'll find that arcade emulation is just a gateway to another expensive collection/hobby/lifestyle.  Just don't run a multicade in your bar.  It is tacky & as noted, the emulation is lacking in many cases.

you are probably right. As much as we want to make it black and white, it's not. and as much as we TRY to make it black or white it fails because there isn't an all encompassing law that says if x AND y then legal, but, if x OR y then illegal.

and as much as i want to say HEY WE'VE GONE OVER THIS 100 TIMES NOW! (and we have) but we've come up with all kinds of different answers.

Short answer: nobody seems to know 100%

[Vigo]

I think it was the gameworks in Vegas i was at where they had a section of classic games all lined up in custom woody cabinets. I think it was designed in a way that they could easily plop in a new PCB and control panel (if need be) for about any game they found. I assume if one PCB fried, they would just grab a new board of any random jamma game and put it in. It was actually kinda cool.

That sort of thing make much more sense to me from an economic and effort perspective than fretting over maintaining a half dozen computers.

[Generic Eric]

I think it was the gameworks in Vegas i was at where they had a section of classic games all lined up in custom woody cabinets. I think it was designed in a way that they could easily plop in a new PCB and control panel (if need be) for about any game they found. I assume if one PCB fried, they would just grab a new board of any random jamma game and put it in. It was actually kinda cool.

That sort of thing make much more sense to me from an economic and effort perspective than fretting over maintaining a half dozen computers.

Like this?



That is what I found when I did an image search.

[lilshawn]

I think it was the gameworks in Vegas i was at where they had a section of classic games all lined up in custom woody cabinets. I think it was designed in a way that they could easily plop in a new PCB and control panel (if need be) for about any game they found. I assume if one PCB fried, they would just grab a new board of any random jamma game and put it in. It was actually kinda cool.

That sort of thing make much more sense to me from an economic and effort perspective than fretting over maintaining a half dozen computers.

Like this?



That is what I found when I did an image search.

that's ugly as all hell, but hey, it works... and sold wood is stronger than partical or mdf any day of the week.

[Vigo]

  It's been a few years, but I think that might be it. They are a little boxier than I remember, but that is the concept. I think that would be a great solution to allow a rotating selection of arcade games going in a commercial setting.

[BobA]

The legal licensing of arcade games in a lot of places is more of a problem.   State and local regulations must be met and whether the game is legal or not the use of the arcade cabinet in a place of business must be OK'd by the local authority who really just care about license fees.