JIMBOVISION: Rotating CP [spinner led trauma]

[Jimbo]

LATEST PROJECT PICS..... (full thread starting below)

Summary: -

• Motorised Rotating CP
• Motorised Rotating CRT
• LCD Marquee
• Controls all with edge-lit plexi
• Lots of mistakes on the way...

FROM THE START...

OK so I've had my first build up and running for a few years now. Here it is: -



It's been fun and I love it dearly, but I can no longer bear the many little imperfections it beholds. No more can I cope with those irritating shortcomings every time I boot it up for a game.

It was fun while it lasted, and you won't be forgotten, but I will be soon gutting you for your replacement!

Here's the plan...

• Motorised rotating CRT. I have a Hantarex Polo 21" arcade monitor in the existing cab, but it is a manual rotate (there is a hole in one of the side panels for me to twist the monitor wheel between vertical and horizontal). I hate this with a passion and it *must* be motorised! Quite frankly I wussed out in my first build! Plan is to control a DC motor with an h-bridge via an arduino, using [possibly] some photo transistor sensors).  End result is to get the monitor to rotate and degauss automatically based on the game you choose to play. I've already got the Polo modded with degauss switch.
• Superwide LCD panel for the marquees.  I've ordered a Litemax SSD2313 1366x382 ultra wide aspect ratio (16:4.5) LCD panel from their UK distributor.  Many thanks to markc74 for his info and inspiration (the awesome blip cabinet!).
• GroovyMAME with CRT Emudriver.  This will be instead of the Ultimarc ArcadeVGA I currently am using.  Looks like it can get better resolution support and sync/timing with the Polo than the ArcadeVGA. It also allows me to use the LCD for marquees in extended desktop mode.
• Add an extra joystick/3-buttons for single player games, in the centre of the control panel.  Currently I have a simple-ish 2-player CP, but I HATE playing single player games from off the side... so I'm adding another set of controls in the centre of the panel (see pics below).
• Ditch the U360s for ServoStiks...  Yep, the Ultrastiks are cool, mega easy to setup, but they just don't feel right. I want mechanical restriction, but I want the on-the-fly flexibility of both 4- and 8-way limitations.  I never really played any games that used the analog qualities of the Ultrastiks anyway.
• LED-lit controls.  Buttons, Joysticks, trackball, spinners will all be lit with LEDs.  Whether I get a PacLED64 or LEW-Wiz I'm not sure yet. But LEDBlinky looks awesome - I want the LEDs to flash on game load hinting at the controls to use for it, for sure.
• Player 1 and 2 will only have 4 buttons each.  I don't think anyone who's used my cab has ever needed more than this, so the extra 2 buttons per player are going.
• Mount the monitor a little lower down, at 55 degrees angle.  Current cab is mounted at 45 degrees, but I like flat monitors - it just seems more authentic to me.  It's currently mounted a little high, so the bottom of the rotating wheel now will be down below the top of the CP.
• Authentic 2-slot up-and-over coin door, with cash box.  Better than the ugly single-slot thing I have in cab 1, which has been jammed for a while with a 50 pence piece!  My makeshift cardboard box coin tray will finally be chucked on the fire!
• Admin buttons (e.g. mame 'tab' menu) will be placed NOWHERE NEAR THE CP.  It's shifted to coin1+fire on my current CP, and I can't tell you how many times it's been accessed by accident.
• Nice volume control in an accessible place.  On top of the cab out of sight and out of reach is NOT FUN.
• There are various other bits and pieces I am changing too, but too trivial to mention here, so I'll mention them as I go.

Some prelim designs (using google sketchup): -




I'm just sourcing a few tester controls (mainly buttons/leds) to test them out before committing to a big order, but I hope to start building in the next few weeks.

Jury is still out on the name.

[markc74]

Hi chap - looking good so far - I'd be tempted to slap a curve on the back at the top to match the curve at the base of the front but that's just me.

CP looks pretty well thought out. I like the location of the spinners - my first thought was wtf? but looking at it again it looks like it could work really well.

I'm really interested in what you said about the ultrastick though.  I recently got a servostick and tbh I'm not loving it.  It might be because it feels looser than I'm used to, or it might be the ball top after spending so much time with bat tops but I much prefer my happs competitions in general.

I was actually thinking of changing it for the ultrastick. I haven't actually tried one though so am reluctant to splash out a load of cash first.

[yamatetsu]

If you don't like that loose feeling, the UltraStik probably is no good for you. I have two UltraStiks and a dedicated 4-way that I've changed into an 8-way. Since the UltraStik is analog, it is way more loose than the 8-way. So, if you order one, do yourself a huge favor and order the stiffer spring aswell. I wish I had done that.

[Jimbo]

Ah cheers guys.

Yup - loving the curved back idea!



I've also had a little more thought on the CP.  I love driving games but again hate being on the side so I'm seeing what a centre spinner (for mini-racer wheel) looks like.  Yes it makes the CP more busy... but I *think* there's enough room around the controls so you don't bump into them.

I'm also trialling adding a dedicated 4-way to the "single player" area towards the back of the panel.  This means I don't need to use ServoStiks, and could potentially get some nice 8-way leafs in there.  Although I want all the joys illuminated, but not sure if that's possible - if not I'll have to think of a way of illuminating around the joys through the panel or something... (I'll have to do that with the spinners somehow anyway).



What do you think? Too busy?  It's tough trying to find the balance between playable games and a clean CP!

[yotsuya]

Three spinners? What do you do with the other two? Pong?

[Jimbo]

Three spinners? What do you do with the other two? Pong?

Well, I figure they worked well on the old cab... supersprint etc.. I guess I can now play that and similar games with 3 players

[mgb]

I like your plans here. looking forward to seeing come to be.
i like the control panel layout, especially the change you made with putting the spinners on an angle.

I like the cabinet design but to me, theres something a little off on the front wings under the cp.
I can't put my finger on it but theres a slight proportion issue to my eyes.

On my cp, I only use 4 buttons per player and it has worked out great.
I just rely on the neo geo fighters rather than the street fighter series.
I have mine in a diamond pattern and it works well for me.

good luck

[yamatetsu]

My suggestion for the cab design would be something like this to make that beefy profile look a little slimmer.

[Jimbo]

heeey... that's nice, thank you... but I have something extra planned now (see next post)

[Jimbo]

OK so call me over ambitious, but after some inspiration from darthpaul's ridiculously cool automated cabinet, I've decided I want a piece of that pie too.



Here comes the rationale on the controls I've chosen for the 3 sides.  I'm aiming for all joysticks to be leaf-switch ball-tops, and all controls to be LED illuminated (if I can).  Comments/feedback/criticisms welcome, of course...

SIDE 1 - Single Player Dedicated



From left to right:
 - 2-way vertical joystick (for Defender) along with dedicated reverse button
 - 2-way horizontal joystick (for galaxians, galaga, etc)
 - 4-way joystick
 - 8-way joystick
 - 8 buttons - should give me enough for most games I can throw at it... the extra buttons will also come in handy for C64 emulation (e.g. buttons for Spacebar, Run-Stop, arrow keys, Return etc)


SIDE 2 - Two Player + Trackball



From left to right:
 - Player 1 controls (8-way leaf, 6 buttons)
 - Trackball (will use this also for Star Wars, and probably some ScummVM games)
 - Player 2 controls (8-way leaf, 6 buttons)
This will be my robotron panel!

SIDE 3 - Spinner/Various



 - The top half of this panel is for 2-player spinner games such as Blasteroids and Two Tigers, plus with mini-racer wheel can be used for Super Sprint etc.
 - The spinner in the middle would be for dedicated arkanoid or various single player driving games (TT2 w/mini-racer wheel)
 - The bottom 5 buttons are for dedicated asteroids
 - I can also play Tempest on this panel
 
Can't play Tron. Can't play QBert.  Most of the other games I care about I can play though.  I don't think I've missed anything out but if something is glaringly obvious I'll be happy to hear it.

It's a bit snug under the panels, but all the controls fit and I have an idea or two on how to rotate it (thinking: stepper motor again). Keeping the CP securely in place after rotation is another concern... electromagnets maybe... needs more thought.

I haven't specifically allowed space for an interface such as IPac yet either... and I'm sure something else is going to come and bite me in the ass too.

[emphatic]

^^What the hell?! Just get an Ultimarc Ultrastik 360 already.

[Jimbo]

^^What the hell?! Just get an Ultimarc Ultrastik 360 already.

I already have one of those... don't like it, it just doesn't feel right.  

[keilmillerjr]

Love the arcade design. The new updated rotating control panel does not follow the keep it simple rule. It's crazy, but not in a good way. You don't need to play every game. Focus on playing most games well.

Keep up the amazing renderings!

[yotsuya]

It just amazes me, the sheer amount of money that gets spent on buttons and encoders and joysticks just to play everything. 

[mgb]

What the hell,
  I check this thread out one day and the cp is on the simpler side with only 4 buttons per player.
Then it gets a little more busy with an extra joystick then an extra spinner and I stil liked it.
Now this.

[edekoning]

That CP with 4 joysticks in a row looks like a big WTF. If you really really need that many different controls than go with modular panels (Switchcade style http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,112889.0.html). Or go with swappable panels (Blip style http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137295.0.html). In any case try to keep those CPs simple and obvious.

[ballboff]

This is way overkill.  You can play defender with a 4-way joystick, I don't see the problem to warrant an extra joystick.  Hell, most of the spinner games you can control with a 4-way too.  I don't think there was anything wrong with the control panel you had before.  I hate overloaded control panels with hundreds of bloody lights, like a las vegas show or something.  Why can nobody keep it simple?!! 

[Jimbo]

OKAY OKAY... so I may have overdosed on the caffeine yesterday.....  we all get a little over excited sometimes, right?

On reflection (good night's sleep followed by a bacon roll)... you've convinced me to ditch the 2 x 2-ways, so the single player panel will have a 4-way (with defender reverse button) and an 8-way.

I'm fine with the spinner panel so I don't think I'm going to change that. The controls don't get in the way of each other and I've seen much much worse.

To minimise any confusion I'm planning on using LEDBlinky to highlight which controls to use with each game.

It might not look so harsh once you see the render of the panel in-situ in the cab.  I'll get a pic uploaded soon.

Have I earned an ounce of forgiveness now? 

[edekoning]

On reflection (good night's sleep followed by a bacon roll)... you've convinced me to ditch the 2 x 2-ways, so the single player panel will have a 4-way (with defender reverse button) and an 8-way.

Did you not say you were going with servo sticks? If so, why a dedicated 4-way?

[Jimbo]

Did you not say you were going with servo sticks? If so, why a dedicated 4-way?

I've recently tried out a servo-stik.  They take up a lot of space under the panel (in my rotating panel space is tight). Also the throw is quite long and I just think I would prefer leaf-switched joysticks.

[Jimbo]

Here's the rotating panel in-situ...

Panel 1 (1 player dedicated)


Panel 2 (2-player)


Panel 3 (various)


Still a bit of shifting around to do with the monitor to make room for the rotating CP inside the cab, but hopefully not too much.

Still also got to decide where to put start1 and start2 buttons, and I want a 'Pause' and an 'Exit/Back' button.  Don't really want to duplicate them on each panel but I can't think of a viable alternative right now that I'd be happy with.

Oh, and ignore the metal piano hinge on the front of the panels... that will be covered up

[AzureKnight]

Just a thought, for the start/admin buttons, what if you shift the monitor up a bit and add a 3" panel in the same plane as the marquee that holds all those buttons?

[Jimbo]

Just a thought, for the start/admin buttons, what if you shift the monitor up a bit and add a 3" panel in the same plane as the marquee that holds all those buttons?

Hmm something like that could work, yes, as I will probably have to move the monitor back/up slightly anyway due to the CP rotation. 

[mgb]

How you planning on the actual rotating of the cp?
Typically you will need to have enough space between the cp and monitor for the panels swing.

In my opinion, it makes for a goofy looking cabinet because of that space

[Jimbo]

I've been working out how to get this CP thing to rotate over the last few days. I must admit this is a massive learning curve for me and I've never attempted anything quite like it before, but after speaking a fair bit with a knowledgable friend of mine, a plan is starting to form.

Current plan is to build a steel frame to hold the rotating CP and mount the whole thing inside the cab.  Due to needing space for the rotation/brake mechanisms, I've had to make the rotating CP section narrower than the cab by about 6cm each side.  This means I've slimmed down the controls a bit (yay I hear some of you cry).  But I'm still happy I can play most things I want.



There's a steel box section at the bottom with welded on steel sides. There will be a steel tube going through the entire control panel, held in place on the frame by a pillow block bearing on each end. On the side of the CP "triangle" I'll mount a timing pulley which will gear down to a smaller pulley attached to a DC motor.  The motor I have also has an optical encoder built into it.

Mounted onto the big pulley is a small flag that will pass through a photo interruptor sensor that is stuck onto the side of the frame on a bracket.

The idea of using the DC motor with the encoder is that I should be able to control the rotation with an arduino and use the encoder pulses to tell me exactly where in the current rotation cycle we are, or more to the point where we *should be* so that I can stop accurately and determine if some external force is preventing the rotation (someone's finger for example!).  This can help me build in a safety shut-off and perhaps show a warning message on the LCD panel etc.

The flag and photo interruptor are there so that I can get a valid "home" position when powering on and for re-calibrating.



Mounted on the other side of the CP triangle is a brake disk. A 25KG lifting electromagnet is mounted onto a bracket onto the sides to act as the brake. I've no idea whether this will be enough, but I've seen the strength of a 10KG one and that was pretty strong!  I guess I'll find out.  I'll be needing to attach some shielding to this too as I'm using a CRT!

The electromagnet will fire once the CP is in position, hopefully preventing any movement until the next rotation is triggered.


Like I said - this is a massive learning curve for me, and I'm sure once I get started there will be lots of changes.

Might have to actually start building a prototype soon!

[stinkyrob]

Wow, this will be a fun build to watch the progress of!

[markc74]

This looks very very cool. How are you planning to stop the usb cables getting twisted/ caught?

[Jimbo]

Currently - one idea is to wrap them round and round the steel spindle going through the CP unit... with enough loose flex

[nordemoniac]

How will you lock the control panel after spinning it?

Btw, I guess you will have to have a position 1, 2, 3, and for it to never go from 3 to 1, but through 3, 2, 1 so it doesn't get tangled, right?

[Jimbo]

How will you lock the control panel after spinning it?

Well the electromagnet on a brake disk was the first idea... but I'm still not 100% convinced that there will be enough friction to keep it suitably locked in place.  Perhaps instead of a brake disk I'll use 3 smaller tabs (one for each lock position) so the force will be more focused when the magnet is on one of them.  I'm toying with some other similar ideas but they're just concepts at the moment and I have to iron out some kinks first

Btw, I guess you will have to have a position 1, 2, 3, and for it to never go from 3 to 1, but through 3, 2, 1 so it doesn't get tangled, right?

That's the idea, yeah

[keilmillerjr]

How will you prevent a kid from sticking a finger on the panel when rotating? Seems like a pinch hazard.

[DeLuSioNal29]

Subscribed!  Great ideas here.  Can't wait to see the final result!

DeLuSioNaL29

[mgb]

The electromagnets used for door access control will certainly hold it in place but they tend to be a little big and expensive

[nordemoniac]

How will you prevent a kid from sticking a finger on the panel when rotating? Seems like a pinch hazard.

Why would there be kids involved?

[Jimbo]

How will you prevent a kid from sticking a finger on the panel when rotating? Seems like a pinch hazard.

Very good point - I have 2 young kids so I have been thinking about this a lot...

I'll be using feedback from the encoder attached to the motor to tell me where I *should* be compared to where I actually am during a rotation cycle, then using this as input to a PID controller (I plan to use an arduino) to control the motor via an H-bridge.  That's the theory anyway   This way, I should be able to get accurate positioning along with some safety checks (slow/reverse motor) for stuck fingers.  E.g. "You should have moved 40 pulses but you've only moved 30... run finger release subroutine!"  There will probably some acceptable range/limits of expected pulses during a rotation cycle between panels, and it will take some tinkering to get right no doubt.  I imagine this to be an ongoing check all through the rotation cycle... checking its still going at the same-ish speed over and over again.

The electromagnets used for door access control will certainly hold it in place but they tend to be a little big and expensive

I actually had a play with the magnet I bought tonight!  £7.49 GBP for a 25Kg holding electromagnet that takes 12V, and pulls about 750mA.



I initially tried it on a thin sheet of steel... didn't hold too well and was pretty easy to move.  Next I tested it on a 6mm thick flat bar of mild (black) steel...  boy was that tough to move!   The flat bar was wide enough for the entire surface of the magnet to fit, and the surface was very slightly textured (unlike a chunk of smooth engineered steel).  It was *really* hard to move.

I will obviously have to see the leverage when the CP is in place, but initial signs are that this magnet on a brake disk of 6mm thick steel (along with the the holding torque of the motor I've bought) should be enough to keep the panels rock solid even during a lengthy Robotron session. If not, I'll use 2 of the magnets!  I also spotted a 50Kg holding one on ebay...

Biggest issue I will have I think is shielding the magnet enough to protect the CRT which will be about a foot away.

Got the motor out to try too...



All works nicely... it's got a lot of torque and is fairly quiet so I'm pretty happy with my choice to go with this one. As I said above this motor (connected to a pulley on the other side of the CPs) should help a lot with keeping things securely in place when not rotating.

[darthpaul]

You have one big advantage over me in that you are planning on doing automatic rotation from the start. I would have done things differently if I was starting from scratch. Good luck with this, you are going to need it  , I'll be watching and taking notes. I tried using and encoder but because of play in my gear train, I always had problems getting the panels lined up. I finally decided to just go with old technology limit switches, which so far have worked out pretty well.
Is there any reason you can't use a hollow steel rod and pass your wires through that, that is how I'm doing it.
How are you going to automate it? 

[Jimbo]

Is there any reason you can't use a hollow steel rod and pass your wires through that, that is how I'm doing it.

Hmm... possibly - what is the diameter of your steel rod?  I haven't got a lot of space to work with, current design is 12mm thick.  I do think that wrapping leads round and round the rod (with some slack) will be ok though. I shall test with a prototype!  Do you get an chafing of the leads at each end of the rod?

How are you going to automate it?

Magically of course!   Erm... I've seen the controlchoose plugin you mentioned, so that's one option. I'll be using MaLa as a frontend so hopefully the automation won't be too hard to get going from software (writing to serial port etc)... I'll be looking into that a lot a little further down the line.

[darthpaul]

I'm not using steel, I'm using 1 1/2" PVC but your idea should work, you are not rotating a whole lot. I'm very lucky to have DaOldMan writing the software for me, it was his idea to automate the rotation, I had been doing it by hand. We started working on software using a code wheel(encoder) but like I said, I couldn't get the panels to line up correctly all the time because of the slop in my gear train but it could work for you. I want to see that electromagnet brake in action, I'm on my third brake design and it still needs some tweaking.
Make sure all the panels are balanced, less stress on the motor, I had to add some weight to some to get them to be all the same weight.

[Jimbo]

Believe me I am as curious as you to see the brake in action   Shouldn't be too long I just need to wait for a few bits to turn up then I'll start building stuff.  Interesting what you said about the CP weight balance affecting the motor. I hadn't even thought of that but thanks for the heads up. 

[menace]

I Like the rotating panel idea as I did one myself years ago--I think automating it is going to make a complicated projected even harder and also add a whole lot of unnecessary width to the cabinet or really eat into the underside of the control panel if you decide to keep the sides flush with the cabinet sides. 

I also put my admin buttons on the coin door or on an upper panel so you don't have to put them on every panel.  And while I don't want to discourage you from a cool project here's how experience played out on mine:  I had panel 1 as my 2 player setup--it stayed that way probably 90% of the time.  I had a driving panel that was used maybe 8% and the panel 3 was a lowly 2% of the time.

Eventually I came to the conclusion, that the twisted wires, difficult turning (for guests) etc. outweighed the cool factor and I did away with it for a swappable panel--sure, not as cool but way more useable.

I used this one for my inspiration--although mine didn't come out as nice...

http://1uparcade.rmfx.com/