How to make a paddle for an electromechanical breakout game?

[kiwasabi]

So I've had the idea for a while of making an electromechanical version of Breakout. It would mostly use pinball components; drop targets for the bricks, and a ball bearing for the ball. What I can't figure out is how to do the paddle. With some engineer friends' suggestions I decided that an electronics-driven paddle wouldn't be the best bet since it's more complicated and thus more likely to break. So the idea of having the paddle being controlled by a spinner was out. It was decided then that a mechanism that rolls on a track, that the player physically moves back and forth would be best. My question is, how do we propel the ball back into the opposite direction? A pad that's spring-loaded would probably do the trick, but then how would tension be added back to the spring? By having the player do that with a switch? To me that seems sort of annoying and not fun. It could also be possibly to have some sort of handle or trigger the player pulls to cause the paddle to push forward...sort of like those toys where you squeeze the trigger and the boxing glove goes out. Any people who are mechanically inclined have any ideas?

[Le Chuck]

Just put a solenoid driven pop bumper on a track that goes to a drive rod that the player uses to maneuver the position. 

[lilshawn]

if you look how a slingshot kicker on a pinball works, with a solenoid pulling a leaver out into the rubber to deflect the ball...  just put 2 of the levers on either end and have them fire at the same time. same switches and everything to actuate it.

mount the whole works onto a sled that you can move left and right. the rubber coming out a slot in the playfield board.

how i would do it anyways.

[kiwasabi]

Just put a solenoid driven pop bumper on a track that goes to a drive rod that the player uses to maneuver the position.

So simple and ingenious. I guess the rounded design might actual be ideal since in Breakout/Pong it seems the roundness is actually sort of emulated... aka it doesn't hit it straight back in the same direction it was coming from. Thanks for the idea!

[kiwasabi]

if you look how a slingshot kicker on a pinball works, with a solenoid pulling a leaver out into the rubber to deflect the ball...  just put 2 of the levers on either end and have them fire at the same time. same switches and everything to actuate it.

mount the whole works onto a sled that you can move left and right. the rubber coming out a slot in the playfield board.

how i would do it anyways.

That's a good idea too! Do you think it would be better to have it be straight as you're suggesting, or rounded like on a pop bumper? As I said above, I'm pretty sure in Pong they basically emulated that the paddle was rounded to give you more control depending on where you hit the ball.

[Xiaou2]

Pongs physics were not really accurate.   It never took into account things like the speed of your bat.. or pretty much anything of that nature.

 If the ball hit the center, if would bounce the ball more vertically.   If it hit the edge, it would bounce it more to the edge it hit, at a steeper angle.

 I think it would be interesting to use a Pop bumper... but, I dont think pop bumpers are as powerful as the slingshot kickers... due to the mechanical way they are set up.

 Even a kicker might not be enough.   An actual flipper assembly is would you would probably need to get the raw power for this.
A williams flipper coil is dual stage.  Its has a high voltage kick, and then at the top of its swing.. it triggers a switch, that drops the current to just the lower current, just enough to hold the bat up.  Else, the high voltage left on.. would fry the coil.

 Finally, this also depends on the slope of your game.  I probably would advise against 100% pure vertical..  unless you are using a small and light ball, and a very tall playing field.  Otherwise, and even then... gameplay will probably be too fast.

 The smaller the ball, the faster it will move.. but sometimes this can be a bad thing.  It can be too fast for good play.   The extra mass of a real pinball adds a lot more of a vector & momentum challenge to things..  as well as ball-spin.

[kiwasabi]

Pongs physics were not really accurate.   It never took into account things like the speed of your bat.. or pretty much anything of that nature.

 If the ball hit the center, if would bounce the ball more vertically.   If it hit the edge, it would bounce it more to the edge it hit, at a steeper angle.

 I think it would be interesting to use a Pop bumper... but, I dont think pop bumpers are as powerful as the slingshot kickers... due to the mechanical way they are set up.

 Even a kicker might not be enough.   An actual flipper assembly is would you would probably need to get the raw power for this.
A williams flipper coil is dual stage.  Its has a high voltage kick, and then at the top of its swing.. it triggers a switch, that drops the current to just the lower current, just enough to hold the bat up.  Else, the high voltage left on.. would fry the coil.

 Finally, this also depends on the slope of your game.  I probably would advise against 100% pure vertical..  unless you are using a small and light ball, and a very tall playing field.  Otherwise, and even then... gameplay will probably be too fast.

 The smaller the ball, the faster it will move.. but sometimes this can be a bad thing.  It can be too fast for good play.   The extra mass of a real pinball adds a lot more of a vector & momentum challenge to things..  as well as ball-spin.

I think they were basically simulating a rounded paddle so you could aim it a bit. I think that is probably what I'll try first. If the paddle is flat and just hits it straight up no matter where the ball hits, that doesn't allow much control for aiming.

For the playfield I was thinking it would have a similar slant to pinball possibly. I was also thinking if I wanted to get really fancy the playfield could change angle on each level to add challenge to it. But mechanically that seems challenging.

I was figuring a standard pinball would be a good starting point for the ball size. Honestly I have no idea whether a pop bumper or slingshot kicker would be strong enough. If the playfield isn't too slanted and not too deep, then one of those solutions might work. It seems that repurposing a flipper coil for this purpose would be over my head compared to just throwing a pop bumper on a track.

[kiwasabi]

After thinking about it some more I'm pretty sure drop targets won't suffice for this. Basically they're meant for being hit only from the front. I want to be able to hit the targets from the back too in case the ball bounces up above them. So it seems I'll need some solenoid driven targets that pop straight up and down. They'll start vertical then when hit will drop down, with the top totally flush with the playfield so the ball can roll over it smoothly. Anyone have any ideas of suggestions for this?

[Xiaou2]

 You could probably modify a drop target, but Id have to look.   Many drop targets will drop down flush with the field for rolling over.

 As for the play slope..  if its too shallow..  the ball will be very floaty... and stay up in the air for some time.  This allows you go bump the game to alter the trajectory much more so than if it were a faster slope.  The downside is that it can make the game a bit slower.

 Now that I think about it..  you may be better off with Cylindrical posts that drop down instead.  Reason:  Hitting a squared edge, will eventually blunt and break it... as well as mar up the ball.   The post should probably also have a rubber on them as well... unless they are very strong, and allow the posts to sway when hit (rubber centering shock-absorbing grommet underneath)  , to help absorb impact.

 Pinballs can be brutal on impact.

[pbj]

Take a look at how they did it on The Shadow.  Been awhile since I've owned one, but it was basically a paddle with a switch on it.  When the ball hit the paddle hard enough to activate the switch, the paddle kicked the ball.  Worked pretty well, but you'll never get anything 100%.

 

[RandyT]

I don't believe a mechanical version of Breakout is possible, or at least not practical.  The bricks, when hit from behind, exhibit similar behavior to that of the paddle, so getting the paddle right is a small part of what would need to be done.

[kiwasabi]

I don't believe a mechanical version of Breakout is possible, or at least not practical.  The bricks, when hit from behind, exhibit similar behavior to that of the paddle, so getting the paddle right is a small part of what would need to be done.

I realized this today. Also, the ball actually BOUNCES off the bricks in Breakout regardless of hitting them from top or bottom. So what I'm thinking is the "bricks" actually need to be miniature pop bumpers that bounce the ball away from them. The tricky part about this is getting them to become flush with the playfield when they retract. I'm thinking they may need a plate on top of them so that it can fill the hole completely.

[kiwasabi]

 You could probably modify a drop target, but Id have to look.   Many drop targets will drop down flush with the field for rolling over.

 As for the play slope..  if its too shallow..  the ball will be very floaty... and stay up in the air for some time.  This allows you go bump the game to alter the trajectory much more so than if it were a faster slope.  The downside is that it can make the game a bit slower.

 Now that I think about it..  you may be better off with Cylindrical posts that drop down instead.  Reason:  Hitting a squared edge, will eventually blunt and break it... as well as mar up the ball.   The post should probably also have a rubber on them as well... unless they are very strong, and allow the posts to sway when hit (rubber centering shock-absorbing grommet underneath)  , to help absorb impact.

 Pinballs can be brutal on impact.

Yeah drop targets won't work since they can't be triggered from the back. Also, they don't bounce the ball like the bricks do in Breakout. So I think some sort of miniature pop bumper would work, which also fits in with what you're saying about cylindrical targets.

What kind of slant would be ideal do you think? I think it would be really awesome to have a playfield that changes angles each level, but of course mechanically that would be very difficult.

[kiwasabi]

Take a look at how they did it on The Shadow.  Been awhile since I've owned one, but it was basically a paddle with a switch on it.  When the ball hit the paddle hard enough to activate the switch, the paddle kicked the ball.  Worked pretty well, but you'll never get anything 100%.

Very cool, thanks for sharing! I didn't even know that existed. Evidently that paddle was done with a kicker that's triggered by a sensor on the sides which when passed with the ball in front of the paddle causes the kicker to do its thing. I'm thinking that it would be best to just have the paddle on a track with a drive rod that the player physically moves. That would simplify things and have one less mechanism that could go bad.