Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?

[sean_sk]

I really don't know why someone would want to run an LCD monitor with an original PCB, though. Seems kind of off. If you care enough to have to run the original PCB, you might as well go all the way and use a CRT, too.

CRTs are harder and harder to find.... I can walk into walmart and walk out with just about any sized LCD I want. or order one on Amazon and have it in 2 days for about $200.

If I want a CRT for a reasonable price I have to watching CraigsList for Weeks (Months?) and hope that someone sells a used one, for $75-$300 then I probably have to order a new flyback and cap kit to rebuild the thing, or send it out and have it rebuilt for another $150 and I probably have to tune and adjust it.... that's if one even ever pops up... if that doesn' happen my only options is to buy a junky Makvision for $600 + another $200 for shipping.

even if you prefer to play on the original PCBs, if you're missing a CRT or have a broken tube then finding a replacement is either prohibitively difficult or prohibitively expensive. There are many arcade operators and collectors alike who would rather be able to simply install a 4:3 LCD...

You can, in actual fact, turn most CRT TV's into arcade monitors.

I don't know what it's like where you guys are from but in Australia people are giving them away. In an Australian arcade forum that I'm a member of, one very helpful and kind fellow donated to me a 25" NEC TV, 2001 model in pristine condition. I ripped out the tube and bought a universal arcade chassis from a company in Perth that specialize in selling and servicing arcade monitors and other arcade equipment. The owner is probably one of the most knowledgeable guys in the field.

I had to take some readings from the yoke for him and then he sent me a new universal arcade chassis for a couple of hundred bucks. I connected it up, did some adjusting and it gives me a fantastic picture. The NEC tube was in near new condition. Looked like it had hardly been used so it should last many years. I do have a Samsung CRT TV manufactured the same year as the NEC also in excellent condition as a backup in the extremely highly unlikely event the NEC tube packs up, but generally the chassis is more likely to play up then the tube.

It's not multisync but, meh, I'm not fussed.

[twistedsymphony]

There are many arcade operators and collectors alike who would rather be able to simply install a 4:3 LCD...

Man, good thing you didn't say that over at KLOV. They'd take out your entire family for saying that..

But, seriously, you are right it is getting painful to get "quality" CRT compared to getting a flat panel.

You'd be surprised, I've been a participant in quite a few LCD vs CRT threads over there.

The general consensus among KLOVers is that 15K resolution games and "classics" NEED a CRT but once you get into the Medium and VGA res games from the mid-90s and newer they're a-ok with LCD swaps. Most of them they're dumping them into sit-down drivers like Cruisn' or San Fran Rush that are notorious for having failure prone Med res monitors. I agree for the most part but the lack of a 4:3 option means I'd still avoid it on those machines personally.

I really don't know why someone would want to run an LCD monitor with an original PCB, though. Seems kind of off. If you care enough to have to run the original PCB, you might as well go all the way and use a CRT, too.

CRTs are harder and harder to find.... I can walk into walmart and walk out with just about any sized LCD I want. or order one on Amazon and have it in 2 days for about $200.

If I want a CRT for a reasonable price I have to watching CraigsList for Weeks (Months?) and hope that someone sells a used one, for $75-$300 then I probably have to order a new flyback and cap kit to rebuild the thing, or send it out and have it rebuilt for another $150 and I probably have to tune and adjust it.... that's if one even ever pops up... if that doesn' happen my only options is to buy a junky Makvision for $600 + another $200 for shipping.

even if you prefer to play on the original PCBs, if you're missing a CRT or have a broken tube then finding a replacement is either prohibitively difficult or prohibitively expensive. There are many arcade operators and collectors alike who would rather be able to simply install a 4:3 LCD...

You can, in actual fact, turn most CRT TV's into arcade monitors.

I don't know what it's like where you guys are from but in Australia people are giving them away. In an Australian arcade forum that I'm a member of, one very helpful and kind fellow donated to me a 25" NEC TV, 2001 model in pristine condition. I ripped out the tube and bought a universal arcade chassis from a company in Perth that specialize in selling and servicing arcade monitors and other arcade equipment. The owner is probably one of the most knowledgeable guys in the field.

I had to take some readings from the yoke for him and then he sent me a new universal arcade chassis for a couple of hundred bucks. I connected it up, did some adjusting and it gives me a fantastic picture. The NEC tube was in near new condition. Looked like it had hardly been used so it should last many years. I do have a Samsung CRT TV manufactured the same year as the NEC also in excellent condition as a backup in the extremely highly unlikely event the NEC tube packs up, but generally the chassis is more likely to play up then the tube.

It's not multisync but, meh, I'm not fussed.

yeah, I'm aware of the ability to "tube swap" using CRT TVs... the problem is you don't have any idea what the neck connector or yoke readouts are going to be until you take the thing home and crack it open, and a few wrong guesses and you've suddenly obtained a small collection of old TVs that will cost you $25 a piece to dispose of.

Those "generic" arcade chassis are made by Wei-Ya... it's the same crap that comes in the Makvision monitors. they're ok if you need one but the 15K models pale in picture quality compared to the old Wells Gardner stuff and the Tri-Sync models also have the problem of being analog instead of digital, which means once they're adjusted for one video mode they're no longer adjusted for the other video modes... that's fine if you're only ever running 1 resolution on the thing... very much not ok if you're changing video modes regularly. I have one in my DDR cab and it's problematic because it uses a different resolution for the menus and game-play so I have to pick which one I want to look right.

[mamenewb100]

yeah, I'm aware of the ability to "tube swap" using CRT TVs... the problem is you don't have any idea what the neck connector or yoke readouts are going to be until you take the thing home and crack it open, and a few wrong guesses and you've suddenly obtained a small collection of old TVs that will cost you $25 a piece to dispose of.

Those "generic" arcade chassis are made by Wei-Ya... it's the same crap that comes in the Makvision monitors. they're ok if you need one but the 15K models pale in picture quality compared to the old Wells Gardner stuff and the Tri-Sync models also have the problem of being analog instead of digital, which means once they're adjusted for one video mode they're no longer adjusted for the other video modes... that's fine if you're only ever running 1 resolution on the thing... very much not ok if you're changing video modes regularly. I have one in my DDR cab and it's problematic because it uses a different resolution for the menus and game-play so I have to pick which one I want to look right.

I'm very surprised they are still selling new CRT Makvisions (or are they refurbished sold as new?). I bought an SVGA version a couple of years ago and everyone was thinking in a month or so there would be no more new Arcade Monitors ever made again. Maybe MAME Hobbyists are keeping them in business. Yes I agree that they are not the quality that they use to be but the picture is still very nice at low resolutions. One of the great things about the Makvision SVGA 31k monitor is that with GroovyMAME and ArcadeOSD you can get 15k resolutions by doubling the refresh rate. You can also get it to run as smooth as a regular 15K monitor by using black frame insertion for every other frame. You can also play newer 31k games without having to switch modes and change settings every time. It displays a very nice 640x480@60 Hz or 320x220@120 Hz but it looks ugly and blurry around the edges at 800x600@60 Hz. It doesn't look great in high res desktop mode but it's useful for browsing webpages. It remembers most resolutions well but it seems to go off-center for some reason on some resolutions. But that may be because my modelines are set wrong for those resolutions.

Also don't they sell Arcade Monitor versions of LCDs that are 4:3? I guess only up to 19" from what I've seen. Don't understand why they can't make 25" or 27" versions?

[lettuce]

I bought an SVGA version a couple of years ago and everyone was thinking in a month or so there would be no more new Arcade Monitors ever made again. Maybe MAME Hobbyists are keeping them in business. Yes I agree that they are not the quality that they use to be but the picture is still very nice at low resolutions. One of the great things about the Makvision SVGA 31k monitor is that with GroovyMAME and ArcadeOSD you can get 15k resolutions by doubling the refresh rate. You can also get it to run as smooth as a regular 15K monitor by using black frame insertion for every other frame. You can also play newer 31k games without having to switch modes and change settings every time. It displays a very nice 640x480@60 Hz or 320x220@120 Hz but it looks ugly and blurry around the edges at 800x600@60 Hz. It doesn't look great in high res desktop mode but it's useful for browsing webpages. It remembers most resolutions well but it seems to go off-center for some reason on some resolutions. But that may be because my modelines are set wrong for those resolutions.

In regards to this would a SVGA or Tri Sync monitor be better, you would obviously think the tri sync as you can get 15, 24 and 31khz res without messing about with double refresh rates but due to the nature of Mame and the PC in general switching refresh rates on the fly and regularly you can really shorten the life of the monitor??

[twistedsymphony]

if you can get a Nanao or Sanwa Tri-Sync I'd say those are much better than what you get with a Makvision.

[lettuce]

if you can get a Nanao or Sanwa Tri-Sync I'd say those are much better than what you get with a Makvision.

Sadly not going to happen, im even surprised there still new Makvision even available they MUST be the last of there kind up for sale!!??

[sean_sk]

Those "generic" arcade chassis are made by Wei-Ya...

Are they all made by Wei-Ya? Mine is a Sharp Image and I didn't think they were. I was quite impressed with the results of that chassis combined with the NEC tube. I was also told in the Aussie Arcade forums that many of the tubes found in televisions were of higher quality than those found in most arcade cabs, although as far as the chassis part of it goes, I don't know how it compare to many others, like the Wei-Ya, as I've never really seen any comparisons. I do know that when I bought the cab originally the arcade monitor in there was garbage and the results I'm getting now are superior. Yeah the picture adjustment options are more limited.

[Sledge]

As far as i'm concerned, Any game can be played on any technology available. It's up to the person who owns it and their circumstances..
Don't have enough room for a BIG CRT setup? Fine, use a LCD/Plasma.
For me personally, i think older games should be played on the older technology if possible.. Newer games like SF4? Easy to play on LCD's etc.
Just look at the arcades atm.. can you even find a CRT in any of the machines?

Though for me newer games will be played on consoles or PC, which means LCD TV etc

[bulbousbeard]

If you're going to get a Makvision, don't even bother with a CRT. A G-Sync monitor with SDLMAME and the Lottes shader basically looks more authentic than a Makvision. Makvisions are just cheap crap. They have a blurry picture and really thick, nasty looking scanlines.

[twistedsymphony]

... im even surprised there still new Makvision even available they MUST be the last of there kind up for sale!!??

I have no idea if they're still being manufactured but there are definitely a few places that still sell them new.

Those "generic" arcade chassis are made by Wei-Ya...

Are they all made by Wei-Ya? Mine is a Sharp Image and I didn't think they were. I was quite impressed with the results of that chassis combined with the NEC tube. I was also told in the Aussie Arcade forums that many of the tubes found in televisions were of higher quality than those found in most arcade cabs, although as far as the chassis part of it goes, I don't know how it compare to many others, like the Wei-Ya, as I've never really seen any comparisons. I do know that when I bought the cab originally the arcade monitor in there was garbage and the results I'm getting now are superior. Yeah the picture adjustment options are more limited.

AFAIK the only "new" generic chassis that have been manufactured within the last few years have been the Wei-Ya chassis, and they're sold under a few different brand names. If you know of where alternatives can be found I'd be interested.

If you're going to get a Makvision, don't even bother with a CRT. A G-Sync monitor with SDLMAME and the Lottes shader basically looks more authentic than a Makvision. Makvisions are just cheap crap. They have a blurry picture and really thick, nasty looking scanlines.

I own a 27" Makvision tri-sync and while I don't really care for the monitor (especially in comparison to other models by Nanao, WG and NeoTek),  I would not consider them to have a "blurry picture" or "thick, nasty looking scanlines". I could write a long list of my complaints about these monitors but those wouldn't be on them... "cheap" construction wouldn't be on the list either... I actually find it very well put together.

If you're getting oversized scanline and a blurry picture then you've probably got something wrong with your setup. I've heard those complaints by people running MAME, but never from people running actual arcade PCBs on these monitors (which includes myself).

[cools]

The Wei Ya chassis are fine, it's the Samsung/Phillips tubes they are paired with "new" that aren't great, though the combination can be adjusted to a nice quality image with some effort.

Despite their imperfections and limitations, for games I'd take a CRT rather than an LCD any day of the week.

[twistedsymphony]

The Wei Ya chassis are fine, it's the Samsung/Phillips tubes they are paired with "new" that aren't great, though the combination can be adjusted to a nice quality image with some effort.

Despite their imperfections and limitations, for games I'd take a CRT rather than an LCD any day of the week.

I use one of these to adjust all of my monitors: http://www.amazon.com/Datacolor-Spyder4Pro-S4P100-Colorimeter-Calibration/dp/B006TF37H8/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1414498861&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=data+pro+coloremter

I only have experience with their 27" tri-sync chassis, I've heard the 24.8" are better.

My biggest quality gripe with the Wei-Ya stuff is that the image is washed out compared to a "good" one, I can't get it adjusted to a perfect color profile before I run out of range on the pots.... this includes a tube from a Med Res Nanao monitor that was "upgraded" to a Wei-Ya tri-sync chassis.

It also doesn't support interlaced video modes which is problematic for games that use that (DDR for example runs in 480i during non-gameplay modes such as song selection and the end of song stat pages).

Finally as a tri-sync and being analog if you're running something like GroovyMAME that switches to the proper mode with every game selected then the adjustments you made to the pots are only accurate for whatever mode you adjusted them on, so as soon as it changes modes it's no longer properly adjusted anymore. This mostly just effects geometry, but I've had situations where the hold becomes off for some resolutions and needs to be re-adjusted which IMO makes it worthless for a MAME environment.

I have a WG D9200 and a Neotec NT-500DX (both 27" tri-syncs) and neither of them have any of the above problems. I ended up relegating my Makvision to a non MAME cabinet where the resolution doesn't ever change and finding a different tri-sync (that D9200)  to use for my MAME build.

All three of the problems I mentioned are just short-sighted design issues. First and foremost making an analog tri-sync is just foolish, anything that's going to support a lot of modes needs to be able to be store different adjustment settings for each mode. they needed to include support for interlaced modes and they needed to include larger adjustment ranges.

[bulbousbeard]

The Wei Yas are definitely not fine. The corners of the screen are as blurry as crap at 800x600, and at 15khz, the scanlines look thick and weird, and the picture is soft. Wei Yas almost look like you have bilinear filtering turned on.

[cools]

twistedsymphony: I agree that not having separate adjustments for 15/25/31k geometry is a pain, but I'd argue if you're live sync switching on a Wei Ya you're being foolish. They are not robust enough to handle it. What model did you have that didn't support interlaced? The ones I've used have.

bulbousbeard: What arcade games worth playing run at 800x600?

Run 31k on them with a decent tube and they're fine. Fake scanlines for low res stuff. 15k on a decent tube isn't bad, the side compression is off putting though.

They are cheap universal chassis for arcade cabinets running a single game at a time, expecting them to be the dogs danglies for the price 

Or spend $1500+ on a Toshiba tri-sync. There's no shortage of these in ex Japan Sega Naomi cabinets. No need to mess around with shaders, doubled refresh rates, black frame insertion and screens that won't fit real cabinet bezels. Real deal.

[twistedsymphony]

twistedsymphony: I agree that not having separate adjustments for 15/25/31k geometry is a pain, but I'd argue if you're live sync switching on a Wei Ya you're being foolish. They are not robust enough to handle it. What model did you have that didn't support interlaced? The ones I've used have.

I honestly don't know what model mine is off the top of my head... it's one of the 27" Tri-Syncs with the flat front tube. It was new in the box but I bought it from someone who was liquidating all of their parts and equipment so I managed to snag it for $100 on a local pickup so I didn't really ask any questions 

I had bought it to replace the failing monitor in my DDR until I discovered that it couldn't handle the interlaced modes so I tried to use it in a MAME cab and ran into the problem of the geometry being messed up every-time the video mode changed. At that point I had swapped the DDR PCB out for a PC running StepMania so I put it back in the DDR where it just runs 640x480p 100% of the time ... of course if I ever put the original PCB back in it I'll have to find another monitor to use.

---------------------------

I'm not complaining for $100 It's more than worth what I paid even with it's problems, but people need to talk about these things because just about everywhere I look on arcade forums people are talking about how great Makvision monitors are, when 90% of the time they're using them in one mode the whole time and have little experience with the far superior alternative out in the wild for a basis of comparison.

The Makvision is marketed in most places as being an ideal monitor for MAME, when it's really not, if you want the best MAME experience you'll want to run lots of different video modes and that's where the Makvision starts to fall on it's face. I've seen more than a few people spend $800 after shipping on these things only to come away crushed with the lack of quality and problematic design and it's really not their fault considering how many people who have no business giving monitor buying advice talk them up.

[Calamity]

Finally as a tri-sync and being analog if you're running something like GroovyMAME that switches to the proper mode with every game selected then the adjustments you made to the pots are only accurate for whatever mode you adjusted them on, so as soon as it changes modes it's no longer properly adjusted anymore. This mostly just effects geometry, but I've had situations where the hold becomes off for some resolutions and needs to be re-adjusted which IMO makes it worthless for a MAME environment.

Just for the record, the purpose of the custom crt_range settings in GroovyMAME is exactly to avoid the situation you're describing. The fact that the chassis is analog doesn't mean you need to make adjustments to the pots when changing modes, once you have properly calibrated crt_ranges. This is how I have my Polostar (analog) tri-sync, and the only thing that needs to be adjusted is the vertical size, which is expected.

That said, it is true that tri-sync monitors are just native "high" res monitors with a custom chassis that allows syncing at 15 / 25 kHz too. So the best geometry is usually only achieved in the 31 kHz range. Unless you're using them with PCBs it's usually better to use 31 kHz + software scanlines.

The scalines of a tri-sync monitor are also thinner so "high" res progressive modes are possible, but the side effect is that at 15 KHz the scanlines are too separated. The result is somewhat in the middle of a PC CRT monitor with software scanlines and a true 15 kHz CRT. This also makes 15 kHz interlaced modes look nasty (25 kHz interlaced looks fine however).

Having tested both, I prefer true 15 kHz monitors.

[cools]

The Makvision is marketed in most places as being an ideal monitor for MAME, when it's really not, if you want the best MAME experience you'll want to run lots of different video modes and that's where the Makvision starts to fall on it's face. I've seen more than a few people spend $800 after shipping on these things only to come away crushed with the lack of quality and problematic design and it's really not their fault considering how many people who have no business giving monitor buying advice talk them up.

This is a US-centric thing. In Europe the Wei Ya is widely slagged off and recommended only as a last ditch thing or if you want to tri-sync a normally 15k cab, and even then people try to talk others out of doing it and just stick with the original chassis. I quite like them as a quick and dirty 31k software scanlines MAME monitor, but they don't half take a lot of work to set up - the B+ is normally wrong from the factory for a start.

[twistedsymphony]

Just for the record, the purpose of the custom crt_range settings in GroovyMAME is exactly to avoid the situation you're describing. The fact that the chassis is analog doesn't mean you need to make adjustments to the pots when changing modes, once you have properly calibrated crt_ranges. This is how I have my Polostar (analog) tri-sync, and the only thing that needs to be adjusted is the vertical size, which is expected.

That said, it is true that tri-sync monitors are just native "high" res monitors with a custom chassis that allows syncing at 15 / 25 kHz too. So the best geometry is usually only achieved in the 31 kHz range. Unless you're using them with PCBs it's usually better to use 31 kHz + software scanlines.

The scalines of a tri-sync monitor are also thinner so "high" res progressive modes are possible, but the side effect is that at 15 KHz the scanlines are too separated. The result is somewhat in the middle of a PC CRT monitor with software scanlines and a true 15 kHz CRT. This also makes 15 kHz interlaced modes look nasty (25 kHz interlaced looks fine however).

Having tested both, I prefer true 15 kHz monitors.

FWIW I've recently added a Kraylix cab to my collection and moved my main MAME machine to that. I'll probably shelve the Tri-Syncs for another project but I'll keep that in mind. My only remaining CRT MAME cab has a 15K monitor and it definitely needs the geomtry dialed in but it's also in need of a cap kit so I figure I'll do that first so I don't have to run the adjustments twice.

This is a US-centric thing. In Europe the Wei Ya is widely slagged off and recommended only as a last ditch thing or if you want to tri-sync a normally 15k cab, and even then people try to talk others out of doing it and just stick with the original chassis. I quite like them as a quick and dirty 31k software scanlines MAME monitor, but they don't half take a lot of work to set up - the B+ is normally wrong from the factory for a start.

Good to know this foolishness isn't world wide. I am often Jealous of Europe's access to Japanese candy cabs. They're so uncommon in my part of the US I've never even seen one in person outside of the occasional Virtua Tennis or Sega Bass Fishing (because those games shipped in modified Naomi Universals and Blast Citys respectively here in the US).

[bulbousbeard]

bulbousbeard: What arcade games worth playing run at 800x600?

Street Fighter IV and Mortal Kombat 9. They pretty much need it. 640x480 in those games is pretty awful.

[opt2not]

Well both of those are modern widescreen + high-res games. While they are playable in a 4:3 format in lower res, they weren't originally authored to be that way.
Whereas arcade games prior to the LCD generation of arcade games were originally built for 4:3 low-res monitors, with scanlines enabled.

A better example of wanting to run games in 800x600 are the Naomi titles like Ikaruga, Virtua Tennis, Crazy Taxi, etc...

[bulbousbeard]

Well both of those are modern widescreen + high-res games. While they are playable in a 4:3 format in lower res, they weren't originally authored to be that way.
Whereas arcade games prior to the LCD generation of arcade games were originally built for 4:3 low-res monitors, with scanlines enabled.

A better example of wanting to run games in 800x600 are the Naomi titles like Ikaruga, Virtua Tennis, Crazy Taxi, etc...

SFIV at least is better at 4:3 than 16:9. At 16:9, the camera is zoomed in really far (the characters' heads are almost touching the energy bars). When you play it at 4:3, it pulls the camera out a bit to give them the same amount of horizontal space, and the proportions of everything are a lot closer to SF2. I think it's the best way to play SFIV.

[twistedsymphony]

NAOMI games are mostly designed for VGA 640x480

...but Some of them are are designed for 15K (like Street Fighter Zero 3 Upper) and look best when running on a 15K monitor or in a simulated 15K mode with scanlines.

I run NAOMI on my LCD cab and while the 3D aspects of the games looks good rendered at higher resolutions, any game that uses sprites or has 2D overlays for the HUD or menus tends to look not so good.

[opt2not]

NAOMI games are mostly designed for VGA 640x480

Whoops, you're right. Don't know why I thought 800x600...because I run NAOMI titles on my candy cabinet's dual-res monitor at 24khz. Doh, thanks for the correction.

That being said, yeah, I can't think of a real good reason to be running arcade games in 800x600.

SFIV at least is better at 4:3 than 16:9. At 16:9, the camera is zoomed in really far (the characters' heads are almost touching the energy bars). When you play it at 4:3, it pulls the camera out a bit to give them the same amount of horizontal space, and the proportions of everything are a lot closer to SF2. I think it's the best way to play SFIV.

While I do play USF4 on my 4:3 candy cabinet at med-res, mainly for the fact of having it running in a cab for legitimacy, I do prefer playing it in the way it was intended.  If I had a Vewlix, you know damn well I'd be running it on that.
But the differences you're talking about aren't really that big, and don't forget, you can adjust the positioning of the health and focus-meter HUD elements.

Street Fighter IV and Mortal Kombat 9. They pretty much need it. 640x480 in those games is pretty awful.

USF4 @ 24khz in my NAC looks pretty damn good to me :

[twistedsymphony]

I've got a Kraylix with a really nice Samsung LCD for running Tatio Type X stuff.... SFIV and Blaz Blue look absolutely gorgeous... even 15K MAME games look great with HLSL. Ironically its the 24K and 31K res stuff that looks the worst.

[bulbousbeard]

I've got a Kraylix with a really nice Samsung LCD for running Tatio Type X stuff.... SFIV and Blaz Blue look absolutely gorgeous... even 15K MAME games look great with HLSL. Ironically its the 24K and 31K res stuff that looks the worst.

Try SDLMAME with Timothy Lottes's shader. The 24khz and 31khz stuff looks awesome in it. HLSL in Windows MAME is getting a bit long in the tooth. It's not even close to the best option anymore.

[bulbousbeard]

While I do play USF4 on my 4:3 candy cabinet at med-res, mainly for the fact of having it running in a cab for legitimacy, I do prefer playing it in the way it was intended.  If I had a Vewlix, you know damn well I'd be running it on that.
But the differences you're talking about aren't really that big, and don't forget, you can adjust the positioning of the health and focus-meter HUD elements.

I'm not sure about intentions, but the best monitor in the world for SFIV is the ROG Swift.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236405&cm_re=rog_swift-_-24-236-405-_-Product

SFIV @ 2560x1440 144hz is really amazing. It's SO smooth and responsive, and because it's G-Sync, it's the lowest input lag version of SFIV available anywhere. It's better than the huge laggy LCDs they threw in the real SFIV cabs.

[Calamity]

I moved the UME related stuff here: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,142174.0.html

[zebidia]

Greetings everyone. I am making my first post on this site as someone whose brain is completely fried from trying to wade thru the vast sea of conflicting information, re: building a MAME arcade system. Never before have I experienced such powerful analysis paralysis.

Basically, all I wanted to do was spec out the best hardware and software components that would, as faithfully as possible, allow me to play such classics as Ms. PacMan, Galaga, Defender and DKjr. Two full weeks of research and I was basically ready to throw in the towel; I simply could not, make heads or tails out of the available information. Multiple versions of MAME, seemingly with sub-versions for different OSes, with no clear picture of which one to choose and why. And the issue of what display technology to use is even more overwhelmingly. Do I get a stupidly expensive RGB CRT (not a regular old North American, 24" Sony Trinitron TV, mind -- something I did foolishly pick up, thinking it would be great, but I now believe will be crap), or do I spend a small fortune on a shiny new, G-Sync LCD? And what input device should I get (I have an X-Arcade TankStick on its way, but I now believe that it will introduce some ugly lag issues, so it was probably not a good choice).

Given my inablity to make any sound decisions inall these matters, I was hoping someone could tell me if buying a 4-slot Neo Geo cabinet would be a good starting point for a MAME conversion (I know, it's considered by many to be sacrilege to mod a perfectly good New Geo cabinet, but I personally have no issue with it, particularly if I keep all the original parts intact)? Is the NG monitor the 'proper' type (assuming it's original), and if so, would I need to get an HD 4xxx ATI card and use CRT_Emu, etc., to drive it? There's a New Geo for sale locally for $1200, and I can't help but think that, from a hardware perspective, using it would be the path of least resistance.

Thanks in advance for any insight anyone can give. And thanks, also, to everyone here whose insights cleared up a lot of confusion I've had over the last couple of weeks. I wish I'd found this web site a long time ago, but strangely only happened upon it a couple of days ago.

[cools]

Path of least resistance - don't skimp on the hardware, use the latest software. People use older versions of MAME for various reasons, but in qualitative terms newer = more accurate:
1) If you want it proper for those games, you'll need two cabinets or one with a monitor that you can rotate. The Neo Geo has the correct monitor type, but it's unlikely to be rotatable. It'd be fine for Defender if you are okay playing Defender with a stick. Seems pricey though.
2) Buy the fastest single thread processor PC you can find. https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html (caveat, the Core i3 that's near the top is not as good as it appears, the lower processors beat it when they run at their "Turbo" clock speed)
3) Use CRT_Emudriver and GroovyMAME, latest versions. Windows 7 64bit.
4) Use a JammASD or a J-PAC to interface your controls.

[twistedsymphony]

Basically, all I wanted to do was spec out the best hardware and software components that would, as faithfully as possible, allow me to play such classics as Ms. PacMan, Galaga, Defender and DKjr.

I had a similar goal with a recent machine that I built. I took a Donkey Kong arcade machine that had a non-working PCB but was otherwise complete.

I kept the original Sanyo 20ez CRT monitor, I removed the old harness (it was in bad shape and wasn't original) and replaced it with a brand new JAMMA harness. then I used a J-PAC for a PC interface.

The machine didn't have the original Nintendo power supply so I removed the junky supply that was in there and I installed a normal power outlet in a metal box (the usual stuff from home depot) where the power supply normally goes so that I could plug the PC into it. I ran the wires from the junction block that was already in the cabinet it it would switch on and off with the external power switch.

for the PC I bought a slim Micro-ATX case with a power supply and then spent $50 on a used Micro-ATX Motherboard that came with 2GB of ram and Core2Duo CPU (more than ample to run classic games through MAME as well as modern PC games with the graphics turned down, but if you wanted to run newer emulated stuff like  NAOMI or PS2 you'd definitely need more than that). I then bought a low-profile ATi HD4350 to use as a video card along with a DVI to VGA cable to hook into the J-PAC. I'm also using an 60GB SSD drive just for better reliability and loading times. The fewer moving parts the more reliable and less noisy the machine will be, the whole PC only has 3 moving parts: the CPU fan, the case fan and the PSU fan. I intentionally sought out a Graphics card without a fan and went with an SSD hard drive for this reason.

on the PC I'm running a normal Windows XP install, I went through and disabled any features I didn't need and did some other tweaks to make it boot and run faster. I also went into the bios and set it up to automatically boot up whenever power is applied. I'm running the latest GroovyMAME for MAME as well as CRT_EmuDriver for proper video output. In addition to MAME I'm also running Fix it Felix Jr and the PC version of Ikaruga (one of my favorite vertical shooters).

Here's what the inside of the cab looks like:

I mounted the PC to the side of the cab using some angle aluminum from home depot and I also screwed the J-PAC into the side of the PC case. My goal was to make as little modifications as possible to the original cabinet... in the end there was 2 new screw holes for the power outlet and 2 new screw holes for the upper case mount bracket and that's it.

For the control panel I opted to go with an Ultimarc Servo stick because I wanted to play both 4-way and 8-way games with a properly gated stick, and I used typical Happ push buttons for the buttons. if you wanted a more authentic feel there's no reason you couldn't go with a Wilco leaf switch and buttons like the original Pac-Mans and Galagas used to have.


here's the running machine:

after the picture I've given it fresh t-molding and I still need to patch and paint the sides and apply the side art but it's a very authentic looking and feeling machine. and I didn't spend a boat-load on hardware either... total I think I spent about $120 for case, psu, mobo, graphics card and ssd.

------------------

I have 3 "MAME" machine and I always try to have the most authentic gameplay possible while making a few small exceptions for versatility sake. So for instance an original arcade CRT with CRT_EmuDriver and GroovyMAME is one of the best things I've found for an authentic LOOK to all of your games short of using the original game PCBs. Using the original sticks and buttons would give you the authentic feel but I opted for the Servo Stick just to open my options a bit... most classics outside of Nintendo didn't use microswitches though and IMO that's a big part of the feel of the controls you use too.

[sean_sk]

here's the running machine:

Very jealous dude. I've wanted to put together a Fix-It Felix cab for a long time, but haven't had the opportunity. Looks great!

[zebidia]

Path of least resistance - don't skimp on the hardware, use the latest software. People use older versions of MAME for various reasons, but in qualitative terms newer = more accurate:
1) If you want it proper for those games, you'll need two cabinets or one with a monitor that you can rotate. The Neo Geo has the correct monitor type, but it's unlikely to be rotatable. It'd be fine for Defender if you are okay playing Defender with a stick. Seems pricey though.
2) Buy the fastest single thread processor PC you can find. https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html (caveat, the Core i3 that's near the top is not as good as it appears, the lower processors beat it when they run at their "Turbo" clock speed)
3) Use CRT_Emudriver and GroovyMAME, latest verqsions. Windows 7 64bit.
4) Use a JammASD or a J-PAC to interface your controls.

Thanks, cools.

I think your first list item has convinced me that I am going to be better off just laying out some big cash on a good g-sync monitor. On page 1 of this thread, BulbousBeard made a post that makes me even more comfortable with this decision:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,138196.msg1469654.html#msg1469654

Although BulbousBeard does state the following:

"...  with a properly configured SDLMAME and tell me that it doesn't blow you away."

I now need to find out why SDLMAME is a thing, and why it should be used instead of plain ol' vanilla MAME. Heavy sigh.

[twistedsymphony]

I'm confused.... how did you come away from cools' post thinking you needed a G-Sync monitor?

If you want to play Street Fighter IV or Injustic or you want a LCD candy style cab, then by-all means go with a G-Sync.

If you want an authenic feeling "classics" arcade machine then spending the money on a G-Sync instead of just buying an Arcade CRT is just foolish IMO.

[zebidia]

I'm confused.... how did you come away from cools' post thinking you needed a G-Sync monitor?

If you want to play Street Fighter IV or Injustic or you want a LCD candy style cab, then by-all means go with a G-Sync.

If you want an authenic feeling "classics" arcade machine then spending the money on a G-Sync instead of just buying an Arcade CRT is just foolish IMO.

The suggestion that I might want two cabinets is the clincher for me... I absolutely don't want to go this far. As far as I can tell, a good, hi-res LCD (like the g-sync model linked to by BulbousBeard) will allow for both horizontal and vertical game-play, without rotating the monitor, and if the monitor is large enough, vertical games will still look plenty big. But note that it's quite possible I don't know what the heck I'm talking about, as my opening post makes evident.

And another perk of LCD is that I can slide out the kbd/mouse combo I intend to have in my cabinet and play some FPSes in all their hi-res glory. Seems like an all around win to me.

I should also note that finding a good, working RGB CRT seems like a major undertaking, at least where I live. I dread the thought of receiving something shipped from across country (Canada), or worse yet, from another country (the US), that plain doesn't work, or works poorly. I don't have the skills to remedy such things.

[twistedsymphony]

I'm confused.... how did you come away from cools' post thinking you needed a G-Sync monitor?

If you want to play Street Fighter IV or Injustic or you want a LCD candy style cab, then by-all means go with a G-Sync.

If you want an authenic feeling "classics" arcade machine then spending the money on a G-Sync instead of just buying an Arcade CRT is just foolish IMO.

The suggestion that I might want two cabinets is the clincher for me... I absolutely don't want to go this far. As far as I can tell, a good, hi-res LCD (like the g-sync model linked to by BulbousBeard) will allow for both horizontal and vertical game-play, without rotating the monitor, and if the monitor is large enough, vertical games will still look plenty big. But note that it's quite possible I don't know what the heck I'm talking about, as my opening post makes evident.

And another perk of LCD is that I can slide out the kbd/mouse combo I intend to have in my cabinet and play some FPSes in all their hi-res glory. Seems like an all around win to me.

I should also note that finding a good, working RGB CRT seems like a major undertaking, at least where I live. I dread the thought of receiving something shipped from across country (Canada), or worse yet, from another country (the US), that plain doesn't work, or works poorly. I don't have the skills to remedy such things.

Why someone would want to use a keyboard and mouse to play an FPS on an arcade machine is beyond me... that seems WAY out of the realm of what you listed as your original goal.

As for an LCD being better for rotated games, I'd argue the opposite is true. You can run any vertical game on any horizontal monitor, including a CRT, and LCD doesn't make it any better or worse; however if you're using a widescreen LCD as opposed to a similar width CRT you're going to have even LESS visible screen area when playing vertical games.

If you do want to have a proper arcade cab with a proper arcade monitor and a rotating screen the best cab I've heard for easily rotating monitors is a Taito Egret II, supposedly it can be done in a matter of seconds without any tools, There are cheaper options such as Taito's Double Dragon cabinet that take a couple of minutes and a little bit of muscle to rotate the monitor (but still no tools). Or you can just have the games virtually rotated on the CRT... if you go with a CRT.

I know a lot of people on this forum seem to want to build a single machine that plays every game ever made, but IMO once you have more than one set of controls attached to an arcade cabinet it completely defeats the purpose of having an arcade cabinet, and you'd be better off just having a PC hooked up to your HDTV with a number of different controllers and joysticks that you can hook up and swap out depending on what game you're playing.

You, of course, may do whatever you like... that's just my 2 cents.

[yotsuya]

Why someone would want to use a keyboard and mouse to play an FPS on an arcade machine is beyond me... that seems WAY out of the realm of what you listed as your original goal.

As for an LCD being better for rotated games, I'd argue the opposite is true. You can run any vertical game on any horizontal monitor, including a CRT, and LCD doesn't make it any better or worse; however if you're using a widescreen LCD as opposed to a similar width CRT you're going to have even LESS visible screen area when playing vertical games.

If you do want to have a proper arcade cab with a proper arcade monitor and a rotating screen the best cab I've heard for easily rotating monitors is a Taito Egret II, supposedly it can be done in a matter of seconds without any tools, There are cheaper options such as Taito's Double Dragon cabinet that take a couple of minutes and a little bit of muscle to rotate the monitor (but still no tools). Or you can just have the games virtually rotated on the CRT... if you go with a CRT.

I know a lot of people on this forum seem to want to build a single machine that plays every game ever made, but IMO once you have more than one set of controls attached to an arcade cabinet it completely defeats the purpose of having an arcade cabinet, and you'd be better off just having a PC hooked up to your HDTV with a number of different controllers and joysticks that you can hook up and swap out depending on what game you're playing.

You, of course, may do whatever you like... that's just my 2 cents.

I'd post the Kane Clapping .gif , but I already used it today, so allow me to say bravo to you with this....

[zebidia]

I'm confused.... how did you come away from cools' post thinking you needed a G-Sync monitor?

If you want to play Street Fighter IV or Injustic or you want a LCD candy style cab, then by-all means go with a G-Sync.

If you want an authenic feeling "classics" arcade machine then spending the money on a G-Sync instead of just buying an Arcade CRT is just foolish IMO.

The suggestion that I might want two cabinets is the clincher for me... I absolutely don't want to go this far. As far as I can tell, a good, hi-res LCD (like the g-sync model linked to by BulbousBeard) will allow for both horizontal and vertical game-play, without rotating the monitor, and if the monitor is large enough, vertical games will still look plenty big. But note that it's quite possible I don't know what the heck I'm talking about, as my opening post makes evident.

And another perk of LCD is that I can slide out the kbd/mouse combo I intend to have in my cabinet and play some FPSes in all their hi-res glory. Seems like an all around win to me.

I should also note that finding a good, working RGB CRT seems like a major undertaking, at least where I live. I dread the thought of receiving something shipped from across country (Canada), or worse yet, from another country (the US), that plain doesn't work, or works poorly. I don't have the skills to remedy such things.

Why someone would want to use a keyboard and mouse to play an FPS on an arcade machine is beyond me... that seems WAY out of the realm of what you listed as your original goal.

As for an LCD being better for rotated games, I'd argue the opposite is true. You can run any vertical game on any horizontal monitor, including a CRT, and LCD doesn't make it any better or worse; however if you're using a widescreen LCD as opposed to a similar width CRT you're going to have even LESS visible screen area when playing vertical games.

If you do want to have a proper arcade cab with a proper arcade monitor and a rotating screen the best cab I've heard for easily rotating monitors is a Taito Egret II, supposedly it can be done in a matter of seconds without any tools, There are cheaper options such as Taito's Double Dragon cabinet that take a couple of minutes and a little bit of muscle to rotate the monitor (but still no tools). Or you can just have the games virtually rotated on the CRT... if you go with a CRT.

I know a lot of people on this forum seem to want to build a single machine that plays every game ever made, but IMO once you have more than one set of controls attached to an arcade cabinet it completely defeats the purpose of having an arcade cabinet, and you'd be better off just having a PC hooked up to your HDTV with a number of different controllers and joysticks that you can hook up and swap out depending on what game you're playing.

You, of course, may do whatever you like... that's just my 2 cents.

For me, the 'purpose' of having an arcade cabinet is so I can stand up while playing some of the funnest games ever made (old-school stuff, like the ones I mention in my OP), and also to be able to play two player games with my buddies and/or wife (who is also, technically, a buddy )... It makes the games much more intimate, if you like. And for me, there is absolutely, positively no religious zealotry associated with arcade cabinets;  they are simply another way for me to enjoy video games, and in my case, that might/will include FPSes.

But the real draw of a cabinet is simply that: It's a cabinet. It looks great, and if built right, is tremendously comfortable and pleasing to interface with. I guess that is the true 'authenticity' aspect of it I was referring to in my OP.

[Vigo]

For me, the 'purpose' of having an arcade cabinet is so I can stand up while playing some of the funnest games ever made (old-school stuff, like the ones I mention in my OP), and also to be able to play two player games with my buddies and/or wife (who is also, technically, a buddy )... It makes the games much more intimate, if you like. And for me, there is absolutely, positively no religious zealotry associated with arcade cabinets;  they are simply another way for me to enjoy video games, and in my case, that might/will include FPSes.

But the real draw of a cabinet is simply that: It's a cabinet. It looks great, and if built right, is tremendously comfortable and pleasing to interface with. I guess that is the true 'authenticity' aspect of it I was referring to in my OP.

You got the right outlook. I got the feeling you will realize that FPS's are not a good fit for a cab, a lot of people think that "couch games" fit well for cabs until it gets to the practical side of using the cab and those games go unplayed. Light gun games on the other hand, those can be a blast. My personal opinion is that you would be just as happy saving some coin on a non g-sync monitor and doing a cab that focuses only on arcade games, but draw your own conclusions and do what you think is best. 

[zebidia]

For me, the 'purpose' of having an arcade cabinet is so I can stand up while playing some of the funnest games ever made (old-school stuff, like the ones I mention in my OP), and also to be able to play two player games with my buddies and/or wife (who is also, technically, a buddy )... It makes the games much more intimate, if you like. And for me, there is absolutely, positively no religious zealotry associated with arcade cabinets;  they are simply another way for me to enjoy video games, and in my case, that might/will include FPSes.

But the real draw of a cabinet is simply that: It's a cabinet. It looks great, and if built right, is tremendously comfortable and pleasing to interface with. I guess that is the true 'authenticity' aspect of it I was referring to in my OP.

You got the right outlook. I got the feeling you will realize that FPS's are not a good fit for a cab, a lot of people think that "couch games" fit well for cabs until it gets to the practical side of using the cab and those games go unplayed. Light gun games on the other hand, those can be a blast. My personal opinion is that you would be just as happy saving some coin on a non g-sync monitor and doing a cab that focuses only on arcade games, but draw your own conclusions and do what you think is best. 

Not sure why you'd say a cabinet is not a good fit for an FPS, given a high quality LCD monitor, but if it's simply because of the standing position, I must say that I work at a computer all day long at a standing desk, and I also play FPSes on that same computer, again, standing. So I'm quite comfortable in a standing position. I also have a walking treadmill at my standing desk, and thus walk while I'm working (for at least a couple of hours a day). The only issue I can see with playing FPSes is that the kbd/mouse tray may be too low (it will be under the X-Arcade TankStick, after all), but I should be able to come up with something to remedy that.

Tracking down a good RGB CRT monitor feels like a way bigger job than I'm willing to take on. I would have to order one from eBay or somewhere, and that freaks me out. Not to mention the seeming degree in rocket science I would need to administer such a monitor through my PC. Makes my head hurt thinking about it.

[sean_sk]

And for me, there is absolutely, positively no religious zealotry associated with arcade cabinets;  they are simply another way for me to enjoy video games, and in my case, that might/will include FPSes.

But the real draw of a cabinet is simply that: It's a cabinet. It looks great, and if built right, is tremendously comfortable and pleasing to interface with. I guess that is the true 'authenticity' aspect of it I was referring to in my OP.

That's fair enough. I say go for the setup that is perfect for you. That's the beauty about this hobby, you can do whatever you like. Just don't put together a monstrosity akin to what is found here: http://www.wickedretarded.com/~crapmame/    That always gives me a good chuckle.