Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?

[Monkee]

Hi and sorry for feeding the troll once more but I'd really like to understand and be able to explain the real advantages of using GM with a CRT over using Mame+HLSL on a low-lag LCD nowadays.

I mean, no doubt if you have the chance to use a cabinet then there is no reason not to do it.
But when I show my GM box on my CRTs to some friends who plays next-gen games on low-lag LCDs and they hear me saying that they should get a CRT if they want to play Mame games too, I sometimes have some trouble to know if (and why) I'm right when you think about the fact that LCDs are cheap and big, have a good image quality, are easily tate-able and can "virtually" play all generations of games on one screen (and only one computer then because you don't need a specific 15khz build).

It seems to me that the main problems of LCDs are the lag, the lack of scanlines (the low resolution "problem" being fixed by using emulators at the screen's resolution reference, it seems) and the fixed frequency, no?
But then when you have a super low-lag screen and HLSL for the scanline, there is just one problem left: the fixed frequency. And I don't know if you really see (for an average player) a difference between a game played at 58Hz or 60Hz (does it break the emulation?)?

I really don't want to bring back old trolls but I'd also really like to know where we are today in terms of emulation on LCDs.
I know that here we are on a "CRT-forum" but I guess that's why I'd like to have your opinion as CRT users on it.

Thanks in advance.
Monkee

[machyavel]

Hi, IMO HLSL on LCD may look fine but in no way can hold comparison against a CRT. And I like accurate frequencies too.

[Monkee]

Thanks Machyavel but what is the impact of non-accurate frequencies on the gameplay/emulation?

[Calamity]

But then when you have a super low-lag screen and HLSL for the scanline, there is just one problem left: the fixed frequency. And I don't know if you really see (for an average player) a difference between a game played at 58Hz or 60Hz (does it break the emulation?)?

58Hz vs 60Hz is very obvious when playing, the sound pitch is the first thing you notice as wrong, but the gameplay is affected too by the speed increase. Just try donpachi with GroovyMAME and the "lcd" preset on a LCD screen.

Super low-lag LCDs still have more lag than a CRT. And remind the problem is not only the lag but the response time. However, the worst problem with LCDs, in the context of emulation, is motion blur. This is IMHO the most distracting single problem that keeps reminding you are not using the proper screen.

Motion blur has been successfully solved by the Lightboost technology, running at 120 Hz with black frame insertion.

The fixed frequency issue has been solved (not so successfully yet) by the G-sync technology.

The problem is, Lightboost and G-sync are mutually exclusive 

Then you have color performance and view angle. The technology that performs better on this regard (IPS), nearly as good as CRTs, has the worse motion blur. The other technology available (TN) has less motion blur but colors and view angle are worse.

So, the situation in March 2014 is that you can't buy an specific LCD that fully matches the performance of a humble 20-year-old CRT in all relevant areas.

I've nothing against LCDs for desktop tasks, I've been using them for more than a decade.

Maybe the engineers that created flat screens did it only because they could and it was possible at the time, but didn't know much about the fundamentals of animation and motion picture. The engineers who invented cinema and television in the 19th-20th century were the ones that really understood how animation works inside the human eye, but they were dead by then.

This is the rational part, the facts. Evantually all these issues will be solved, but we'll still prefer CRTs, this would be the emotional part. CRTs feel like real things, LCDs feel like fake screens. A CRT is a high voltage device with an electron gun ruled by electromagnets and a thick glass screen. On the other hand LCDs feel like plastic, just a moving slide with a kitchen fluorescent tube behind.

[Monkee]

Thanks a lot Calamity, that's exactly the type of objective answer I was searching for. Now I have a better understanding of what's better on CRT and what to wait for if one day I have to go for a LCD.

Side question: How does a tri-tubes projector looks like with our 15khz games?
That seems to be an handsome possibility where you can have a big size, a pretty image, no-lag, no motion blur, variable frequencies and resolutions (including high ones for movies or new games) if I'm not mistaken!

[bulbousbeard]

Lightboost/ULMB sucks. Software black frame insertion actually looks better. Lightboost and ULMB introduce some nasty artifacts/aliasing. It just doesn't look good.

With software black frame insertion, the images are perfectly stable.

It's a problem that could be solved in software, but nobody's done it yet.

A G-Sync monitor with black frame insertion could be great, but nobody's implementing it.

Just so Calamity knows, GroovyMAME's current implementation of black frame insertion is faulty because it skips frames. It hitches every few seconds.

What we really need is to modify MAME to truly output double the frames of whatever that game's refresh rate is with software black frame insertion on a G-Sync monitor and run the game at twice its native refresh rate.

[Monkee]

In fact if I understand you well, even for modern gaming, flat screens are not that good compared to 31khz PC CRT screens (with high resolution), right?

[bulbousbeard]

No. CRTs are not good for modern gaming.

Modern games are designed to run at 1080p or better. Television CRTs never made it past 720p/1080i. There are a handful of 1200p computer CRTs, but they're really not big enough to do anything interesting. They maxed out at 24".

You wouldn't want to run games interlaced, and a 31khz monitor (480p) isn't remotely high enough resolution to drive a modern game.

If you played modern games at 480p, text and UIs would be microscopic.

Resolution is one of the areas where CRTs are flat out inferior to LCDs, plasmas, etc.

I'm not sure if anyone ever made a CRT greater than 1920x1200, and there are 3840x2160 LCDs already.

[ID4]

I think that you are really wrong. CRT is way best for gaming because:

- No native resolution, so no input lag.
- NO MOTION BLUR (RETINA RETENTION).
- Smooth animation.
- No view angle issues.
- No back light, so true blacks for oscure games.

I donīt think that the resolution and the display size is the KEY FEATURE for gaming, itīs the "candy" for markting and mass market.

The INPUT LAG and the MOTION BLUR is the KEY FEATURES for gaming.

Text and UIs could be displayed in CRT as good as LCD, it depends on the construction of the CRT and the specifications (dot pitch, focus, screen size, etc ...).

I have CRT that have greater resolution than 1920x1200 and sure you can build CRT with more, but 4k ONLY have sense for 100' screens or greater, and I donīt think that you need 100' for playing.

If the LCD was better for playing than the CRT, would not exist the efforts that are being made ​​to equalize the LCD to CRT performance (scanning backlight, Gsync, backlight strobe, HLSL, scanlines generators, Prysm LPD, Black Frame, etc)

It is unacceptable that a large screen, have issues with viewing angles.

Take at look at http://www.blurbusters.com/

I use 32' wide screen CRT 1080i for modern gaming and it's really better than LCD, I have no input lag, perfect view angles, no black scenes problems and I see tiny text perfectly, even the sound is better. I have compared it hand to hand with friend 32' and my 40' Philips LED and it's is better.

Even HD television channels are clearer and sharper on a CRT 29 ' SD than in my FullHD LED Philips 40', ok this last one have more details, but the colours, the motion and the image are better and more natural in the CRT.

Sorry, but the facts are the facts.

[Monkee]

Thanks for your argumentation ID4, you seems really passionate about it and I have to admit that I love it! 

I'd love to get a 1080i CRT beast too. Which brand/model do you recommend?

P.S.: I didn't know until today about Prysm LPD, that seems quite nice on the paper!

P.S.S.: you blog seems to be really interesting but I have some troubles with my Spanish level , is there any english version available?

[ID4]

I have two WS32Z419T calibrated to death and I admit that this sets have serious Geometry issues. There are best set, as the Sony Wega HD that seems the best CRT HD (KD-34XBR960).

The Profesional Trinitrons that work form 240p to 1080i without scaling are top quality too.

Take a look at:

http://www.tested.com/tech/gaming/456719-best-crt-retro-games/

I use for computer work and programing LCD 5:4 21' , but for gaming and gfx desing I use an Lacie 19 electron blue (Trinitron tube).

Modern gamers kill for the CRT Sony Fw900 22' wide monitor, seems that is TRLUY AMAZING for modern gaming.

The true CRT succesor is the FED spindt, a really "slim CRT" that altrough it is a fixed display, It can work with multiple resolutions without scaling, and show interlaced images as is.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2138644&goto=nextnewest

This technology was brought by AU Optronics, which is a Chinese manufacturer of LCD panels, I guess that this promising technology will not be marketed until manufactures takes all the commercial juice to LCD and OLED, a decade at least.

About the blog, sorry not english version, you can use google to translate it, or ask me any question. The blog was build only to distribute ArcadeMAME, but sometimes I write things

[Monkee]

Thanks a lot ID4, great infos you're bringing here! 

Sadly it seems that you cannot find any Sony Wega HD in Europe.

[ID4]

Thank you for readme! I use my HD CRT for SD and HD Television, DVDs , bluerays, MKVs, Wii, PS2, XBOX360 and more. It`s really good

Thanks to LCD fever, This is the moment to pick good CRTs, look for flat (not slim) CRTs and Sony profesional monitors.

[bulbousbeard]

I think that you are really wrong. CRT is way best for gaming because:

- No native resolution, so no input lag.
- NO MOTION BLUR (RETINA RETENTION).
- Smooth animation.
- No view angle issues.
- No back light, so true blacks for oscure games.

I donīt think that the resolution and the display size is the KEY FEATURE for gaming, itīs the "candy" for markting and mass market.

The INPUT LAG and the MOTION BLUR is the KEY FEATURES for gaming.

Text and UIs could be displayed in CRT as good as LCD, it depends on the construction of the CRT and the specifications (dot pitch, focus, screen size, etc ...).

I have CRT that have greater resolution than 1920x1200 and sure you can build CRT with more, but 4k ONLY have sense for 100' screens or greater, and I donīt think that you need 100' for playing.

If the LCD was better for playing than the CRT, would not exist the efforts that are being made ​​to equalize the LCD to CRT performance (scanning backlight, Gsync, backlight strobe, HLSL, scanlines generators, Prysm LPD, Black Frame, etc)

It is unacceptable that a large screen, have issues with viewing angles.

Take at look at http://www.blurbusters.com/

I use 32' wide screen CRT 1080i for modern gaming and it's really better than LCD, I have no input lag, perfect view angles, no black scenes problems and I see tiny text perfectly, even the sound is better. I have compared it hand to hand with friend 32' and my 40' Philips LED and it's is better.

Even HD television channels are clearer and sharper on a CRT 29 ' SD than in my FullHD LED Philips 40', ok this last one have more details, but the colours, the motion and the image are better and more natural in the CRT.

Sorry, but the facts are the facts.

Actually, the fact is that resolutions are going to keep increasing in games whereas CRTs are going to be stuck at 1200p forever, and it isn't a long term solution. Within 5 years, games will be designed for 3840x2160 and higher. Modern games already look awful on 90%+ of the CRTs out there today, and within a few years, they're going to look awful on any CRT you can get. The high end Sony CRT you mentioned is 16:10, too, not 16:9, and basically every modern game is designed for 16:9. Most CRTs aren't widescreen at all, and the only 16:9 CRTs I know of max out at 1080i, which really isn't good enough for modern games (who wants to play games with interlacing?). It's really just a matter of time. There will be flat panels (not even LCD) that will beat out CRTs in every measurable way. The main things holding display technology back are 1) people who can't see at 60fps and don't even notice motion blur 2) apathetic people who don't care about display quality and 3) the industry's huge investment in LCD displays which will take at least another decade to completely milk. We could have had OLED displays years ago, but most people simply don't care about quality, so they're still milking cheap LCDs.

And just to set the record straight, people aren't working on CRT simulation (HLSL and GLSL shaders) because it "equalizes performance." LCDs actually display a more precise and uniform image than CRTs. That's part of the problem, really. Those shaders are a conscious effort to DECREASE image quality. Scanlines, slightly busted convergence, bloom, and so on are actually VISUAL DEFECTS. They're not GOOD things. If you have sufficient resolution, you don't even want scanlines. People are really good at filling in visual gaps in their head. The only reason scanlines help older games is because you have dark gaps between the pixels that let humans fill in those gaps with their imagination, which actually makes the low resolution graphics seem more detailed than they really are. Shaders aren't compensating for any flaw in LCDs; they're approximating flaws in CRTS. It's simply that old games were designed with those visual defects in mind, and so that's the best way to play them.

[cools]

Analogue lowres flaws 4 life.

[ufoufo512]

Side question: How does a tri-tubes projector looks like with our 15khz games?
That seems to be an handsome possibility where you can have a big size, a pretty image, no-lag, no motion blur, variable frequencies and resolutions (including high ones for movies or new games) if I'm not mistaken!

I have a Sony 1272 old CRT-projector. You are absolutely right that it has no lag or other digital artifacts and it can sync to pretty much any resolution, refresh rate and progressive / interlace, positive/negative/composite sync combination RGB signal as long as maximum bandwidth and horizontal rate are not exceeded. So it is very flexible. There are 15 KHz models only, but since CRT-projectors are basically free if you can find one, I wouldn't settle for 15KHz model.

My Sony is lower-medium grade and it can display 1080i quite well, although it looks bit soft. You can drive it with 1080p also but it is definitely too soft. The electronics can't really handle the bandwidth and also the electron beam isn't sharp enough. You can use external HDMI to RGB -converter like HD-Fury to connect modern Blu-ray player or console to it. In that case there probably is some lag included, but it hasn't bothered me with XBox360 when playing in 1080i.

There are of course many drawbacks for CRT-projectors as well: they are big and heavy, need (well) darkened room, they are prone to burn ins (much more than CRT TVs / monitors) as those smaller screens inside the projector are driven with lots of power, and finally you need to be prepared to adjust it quite a lot (mechanical focus, convergence, electron beam shape etc.) to be able to get the best picture.

Probably the best resource for these beasts is www.curtpalme.com

[P.H.U.]

What makes it even oh so much more painful is that we were so close to getting this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-conduction_electron-emitter_display

But.....damn.

[Andypc]

No. CRTs are not good for modern gaming.

You wouldn't want to run games interlaced, and a 31khz monitor (480p) isn't remotely high enough resolution to drive a modern game.

If you played modern games at 480p, text and UIs would be microscopic.

Resolution is one of the areas where CRTs are flat out inferior to LCDs, plasmas, etc.

While the above statement might be true for certain types of game, I play lots of modern driving games in my driving cab with a Sanwa PFX tri-sync at 31khz 480p and I love it. It give a retro feel to new games, but is perfectly playable and I prefer it.  The only problem is with games that don't support 4:3 have boarders, but lots still support 4:3



At about 40 seconds you see Grid running on a PFX.

[lettuce]

What makes it even oh so much more painful is that we were so close to getting this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-conduction_electron-emitter_display

But.....damn.

I'm telling you some company needs to do a Kickstarter for this type of tech in 4:3 screens ranging from 17" up to 28"

[P.H.U.]

I'm telling you some company needs to do a Kickstarter for this type of tech in 4:3 screens ranging from 17" up to 28"

Sadly, it will never happen. Investment costs are just way too high to build a factory that can make these screens. Stupid lawsuit killed it for us all. And they will never make 4x3 screens ever again. All we can do is hope that OLED is everything FED/SED was supposed to be and still benefit manufacturers with higher profit margins. Otherwise, we will see LCD based displays for a painfully lonnnnnnnnnnnng time.

[mamenewb100]

One thing I'm not sure has been mentioned is that LCDs always have a fixed resolution. It can simulate different lower resolutions by lighting up more pixel area but the further away you get from its Native resolution, the less sharp and pixelated the image becomes. If you have an LCD TV capable of 1080P Resolution, the image quality of a 720P broadcast will look worse than a LCD TV that is only capable of 720P. CRTs on the other hand can project a perfect image at an exact resolution. Low Res images in particular look far better on a large CRT, then a fixed high res LCD.

The only real advantage of LCDs it's far more compact than CRTs. Today people are obsessed with really large Televisions of 50+ inches. A 50 inch CRT would take up most of the living room in some cases and weigh an ungodly amount because of the large Tube needed to project a large image. So LCDs are more practical in these cases.

It's also not true that CRTs cannot have a resolution as high as LCDs. The only reason you haven't seen CRTs with Resolutions as high as LCD of today is because they just aren't making CRTs anymore. There is not the same demand for them anymore and the industry is pushing slimmer technologies.

[bulbousbeard]

One thing I'm not sure has been mentioned is that LCDs always have a fixed resolution. It can simulate different lower resolutions by lighting up more pixel area but the further away you get from its Native resolution, the less sharp and pixelated the image becomes. If you have an LCD TV capable of 1080P Resolution, the image quality of a 720P broadcast will look worse than a LCD TV that is only capable of 720P. CRTs on the other hand can project a perfect image at an exact resolution. Low Res images in particular look far better on a large CRT, then a fixed high res LCD.

The only real advantage of LCDs it's far more compact than CRTs. Today people are obsessed with really large Televisions of 50+ inches. A 50 inch CRT would take up most of the living room in some cases and weigh an ungodly amount because of the large Tube needed to project a large image. So LCDs are more practical in these cases.

It's also not true that CRTs cannot have a resolution as high as LCDs. The only reason you haven't seen CRTs with Resolutions as high as LCD of today is because they just aren't making CRTs anymore. There is not the same demand for them anymore and the industry is pushing slimmer technologies.

Let's look at the historical advantages of a CRT over an LCD:

1) Authentic look: scanlines, shadowmask, bloom, and so on.
2) Motion smoothness: ability to run at the original game's refresh rate without stuttering or hiccups.
3) Responsiveness: virtually no input lag.
4) Low persistence: very little motion blur.

I'd argue #1, #2, and #3 are basically solved problems at this point. See below for more details about the Timothy Lottes shader. G-Sync solved #2. G-Sync also basically solved #3, because anything you saved by using an CRT is compensated for by the fact that G-Sync has less input lag than running with V-Sync, which you need to do on a CRT. What's really awesome about G-Sync, too, is that you can actually use Calamity's frame delay patch on a G-Sync monitor without visual anomalies to get even more responsiveness out of it. #4 really isn't a solved problem yet. There's no flat panel low persistence option that doesn't reduce color quality yet, but with a 144hz LCD with a 1ms response time, motion blur on all but the fastest scrolling games (Sonic) is pretty subtle.

The more resolution you have, the BETTER it looks and the BETTER it can simulate looking like a CRT if that's what you're after. As far as static image quality goes, it's a solved problem. It's been done. Timothy Lottes's CRT shader looks better than any CRT I've ever seen in my life, and I've seen dozens of arcade and consumer monitors.

https://436e85e1-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/bigbluefrontend/sfa.png

I own a Wells Gardner and Nanao arcade monitor, and this looks better. You simply cannot get an image that pristine and uniform on a CRT. The only real advantages CRTs have at this point are on the motion blur front (they don't even really win on responsiveness anymore when compared to OLED).

Nobody said that CRTs cannot be higher resolution. I said that CRTs will never be higher resolution. The reality is that no one will ever make a 3840x2160 CRT. It'll never happen. It does matter if it's theoretically possible. It won't happen, so who cares? It's over.

LCDs have better image uniformity, and they're more reliable. When you have enough resolution, fixed resolutions are a GOOD thing, especially for a MAME cabinet, because you don't want to see ugly resolution transitions every time you launch another game. LCDs are easier on the eyes than CRTs. I know many people who can't stand the flickery appearance of a <=60hz CRT.

The real problem with a lot of these comparisons is that people are comparing Dell LCDs from 2001 that they found in a dumpster to the very best arcade CRT they've ever seen. I challenge anyone to use an ROG Swift LCD with a properly configured SDLMAME and tell me that it doesn't blow you away. A 1ms 144hz LCD doesn't really have enough motion blur to offset its advantages over a CRT. Yes, if you have some crappy 10 year old panel with 12ms response time that runs at 60hz, sure. That's awful compared to a CRT. That simply isn't what I'm talking about, though.

A lot of this really depends on what your needs/goals are. If you're going to actually buy an original PCB and have a cabinet dedicated to a single game where you can gobble your knobs and tweak your potentiometers perfectly for that one single game and want everything to be original and authentic, I can totally see using a CRT.

If you're going to build a MAME cabinet to actually, you know, play games for fun, a good modern LCD really is the better option overall. You can't even play the new Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter IV on a CRT properly. I mean, just look at those cabinets that are running Street Fighter IV on a CRT at 640x480. The laughable aliasing is far more offensive than the analog on an LCD. At least the CRT shader on an LCD actually looks good. What if you want to play a contemporary 2D game? A CRT bottlenecks what you can do in so many ways, and the few advantages it has at this point simply doesn't outweigh the advantages of a good LCD.

[Calamity]

Hi bulbousbeard,

I'm a bit disconnected of this subject, but last time we talked you said Lightboost was utter crap iirc, I guess that's why you say that #4 isn't solved yet. At least I remind it was not possible to combine G-sync with Lightboost, which would start to make things interesting.

Now, regarding this:

G-Sync has less input lag than running with V-Sync, which you need to do on a CRT

Are there any real tests proving this? I'm inclined to believe it, on paper it sounds good but often reality differs from theory. It would be great to have someone recording MAME on one of these monitors with a high speed camera.

[cools]

Where can one get that shader from? My google-fu is failing.

I wish these shaders would get rid of the blooming (visible on the press start logo), that doesn't reflect reality.

I've never seen an LCD that is as vibrant as a good CRT or plasma though. On a plasma I'll happily run simply upscaled, no filters or shaders - it looks gorgeous. Not so on an LCD.

[Calamity]

I've never seen an LCD that is as vibrant as a good CRT or plasma though.

Definitely there's something about the phosphorus that the eye likes, and can't be photographed. (BTW atom #15 is phosphorus ).

[mamenewb100]

One thing I'm not sure has been mentioned is that LCDs always have a fixed resolution. It can simulate different lower resolutions by lighting up more pixel area but the further away you get from its Native resolution, the less sharp and pixelated the image becomes. If you have an LCD TV capable of 1080P Resolution, the image quality of a 720P broadcast will look worse than a LCD TV that is only capable of 720P. CRTs on the other hand can project a perfect image at an exact resolution. Low Res images in particular look far better on a large CRT, then a fixed high res LCD.

The only real advantage of LCDs it's far more compact than CRTs. Today people are obsessed with really large Televisions of 50+ inches. A 50 inch CRT would take up most of the living room in some cases and weigh an ungodly amount because of the large Tube needed to project a large image. So LCDs are more practical in these cases.

It's also not true that CRTs cannot have a resolution as high as LCDs. The only reason you haven't seen CRTs with Resolutions as high as LCD of today is because they just aren't making CRTs anymore. There is not the same demand for them anymore and the industry is pushing slimmer technologies.

Let's look at the historical advantages of a CRT over an LCD:

1) Authentic look: scanlines, shadowmask, bloom, and so on.
2) Motion smoothness: ability to run at the original game's refresh rate without stuttering or hiccups.
3) Responsiveness: virtually no input lag.
4) Low persistence: very little motion blur.

I'd argue #1, #2, and #3 are basically solved problems at this point. See below for more details about the Timothy Lottes shader. G-Sync solved #2. G-Sync also basically solved #3, because anything you saved by using an CRT is compensated for by the fact that G-Sync has less input lag than running with V-Sync, which you need to do on a CRT. What's really awesome about G-Sync, too, is that you can actually use Calamity's frame delay patch on a G-Sync monitor without visual anomalies to get even more responsiveness out of it. #4 really isn't a solved problem yet. There's no flat panel low persistence option that doesn't reduce color quality yet, but with a 144hz LCD with a 1ms response time, motion blur on all but the fastest scrolling games (Sonic) is pretty subtle.

The more resolution you have, the BETTER it looks and the BETTER it can simulate looking like a CRT if that's what you're after. As far as static image quality goes, it's a solved problem. It's been done. Timothy Lottes's CRT shader looks better than any CRT I've ever seen in my life, and I've seen dozens of arcade and consumer monitors.

https://436e85e1-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/bigbluefrontend/sfa.png

I own a Wells Gardner and Nanao arcade monitor, and this looks better. You simply cannot get an image that pristine and uniform on a CRT. The only real advantages CRTs have at this point are on the motion blur front (they don't even really win on responsiveness anymore when compared to OLED).

Nobody said that CRTs cannot be higher resolution. I said that CRTs will never be higher resolution. The reality is that no one will ever make a 3840x2160 CRT. It'll never happen. It does matter if it's theoretically possible. It won't happen, so who cares? It's over.

LCDs have better image uniformity, and they're more reliable. When you have enough resolution, fixed resolutions are a GOOD thing, especially for a MAME cabinet, because you don't want to see ugly resolution transitions every time you launch another game. LCDs are easier on the eyes than CRTs. I know many people who can't stand the flickery appearance of a <=60hz CRT.

The real problem with a lot of these comparisons is that people are comparing Dell LCDs from 2001 that they found in a dumpster to the very best arcade CRT they've ever seen. I challenge anyone to use an ROG Swift LCD with a properly configured SDLMAME and tell me that it doesn't blow you away. A 1ms 144hz LCD doesn't really have enough motion blur to offset its advantages over a CRT. Yes, if you have some crappy 10 year old panel with 12ms response time that runs at 60hz, sure. That's awful compared to a CRT. That simply isn't what I'm talking about, though.

A lot of this really depends on what your needs/goals are. If you're going to actually buy an original PCB and have a cabinet dedicated to a single game where you can gobble your knobs and tweak your potentiometers perfectly for that one single game and want everything to be original and authentic, I can totally see using a CRT.

If you're going to build a MAME cabinet to actually, you know, play games for fun, a good modern LCD really is the better option overall. You can't even play the new Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter IV on a CRT properly. I mean, just look at those cabinets that are running Street Fighter IV on a CRT at 640x480. The laughable aliasing is far more offensive than the analog on an LCD. At least the CRT shader on an LCD actually looks good. What if you want to play a contemporary 2D game? A CRT bottlenecks what you can do in so many ways, and the few advantages it has at this point simply doesn't outweigh the advantages of a good LCD.

Well beauty will always be in the eye of the beholder. I didn't mean for my post to be anti-LCD. There are a handful of things LCDs do better than CRTs. They are more energy efficient among other things. Personally I don't like how the backlight on LCD makes it so you can never have true blacks. No matter what filter or visual trick you use it will never produce a pure Black. I would love OLED whenever that becomes affordable. Heck MAME on the AMOLED screen of my phone looks fantastic.. on the small screen anyway and no frame lag at all. Although it doesn't have the flicker of a CRT that I miss on some games. Yes you can simulate it but it's not the same. Some nuances of a CRT make it unique, even if it doesn't technically make it 'better'.

Specifically when it comes to old Arcade games, CRTs generally look better because the games were designed to look as good as possible given the limits of low resolution. I've used HLSL in MAME on a good LCD that is fairly new. It looks good even to the point of almost confusing it for a CRT screen. But colors still blend together better and look more accurate on a CRT in my opinion. Old games were specifically designed for huge dot pitch screen with low resolutions. You can get close with LCD and very acceptable to the majority of people. Again it's all subjective.

[opt2not]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the repair-ability of LCD's vs. CRT's.   I've gained basic knowledge of soldering, and electronics, because of the arcade and console modding hobby. During my time I've been able to learn how to bring a handful of Arcade CRT's back from the dead, up-keeping my Sony PVM and Commodore 1084S TV's through component renewing, solder reflowing, etc.  I can probably keep my CRT's running for 20 more years, even after some of them are already 20-30+years old now.

Due to the complexity of LCD tech, the miniaturized and non-standard components, there is no way I'd be able to keep them up and running for that kind of lifespan.
Mind you, not all CRT's are going to have the ability of longevity like this. But for Arcade monitors like G07's and K7000's do, and spare parts are easily available and replaceable on their chassis'.

I mean, don't get me wrong, LCD's are fine for the size factor, especially in more modern looking cabinet builds that tend to be slimmer in form. But I'm pretty sure the LCD you install in your cabinet is not going to last 7 - 10 years from now.

Also...lets not forget that without some sort of Aimtrak/IR sensor set-up w/ their own guns, proper Light-gun games ain't happening on an LCD.

[yotsuya]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the repair-ability of LCD's vs. CRT's.   I've gained basic knowledge of soldering, and electronics, because of the arcade and console modding hobby. During my time I've been able to learn how to bring a handful of Arcade CRT's back from the dead, up-keeping my Sony PVM and Commodore 1084S TV's through component renewing, solder reflowing, etc.  I can probably keep my CRT's running for 20 more years, even after some of them are already 20-30+years old now.

Due to the complexity of LCD tech, the miniaturized and non-standard components, there is no way I'd be able to keep them up and running for that kind of lifespan.
Mind you, not all CRT's are going to have the ability of longevity like this. But for Arcade monitors like G07's and K7000's do, and soare parts are available and easily replaceable on their chassis'.

I mean, don't get me wrong, LCD's are fine for the size factor, especially in more modern looking cabinet builds that tend to be slimmer in form. But I'm pretty sure the LCD you install in your cabinet is not going to last 7 - 10 years from now.

Also...lets not forget that without some sort of Aimtrak/IR sensor set-up w/ their own guns, proper Light-gun games ain't happening on an LCD.

**Fix** an LCD? Bro, you just throw it away and buy another $800. Duh.

[mamenewb100]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the repair-ability of LCD's vs. CRT's.   I've gained basic knowledge of soldering, and electronics, because of the arcade and console modding hobby. During my time I've been able to learn how to bring a handful of Arcade CRT's back from the dead, up-keeping my Sony PVM and Commodore 1084S TV's through component renewing, solder reflowing, etc.  I can probably keep my CRT's running for 20 more years, even after some of them are already 20-30+years old now.

Due to the complexity of LCD tech, the miniaturized and non-standard components, there is no way I'd be able to keep them up and running for that kind of lifespan.
Mind you, not all CRT's are going to have the ability of longevity like this. But for Arcade monitors like G07's and K7000's do, and soare parts are available and easily replaceable on their chassis'.

I mean, don't get me wrong, LCD's are fine for the size factor, especially in more modern looking cabinet builds that tend to be slimmer in form. But I'm pretty sure the LCD you install in your cabinet is not going to last 7 - 10 years from now.

Also...lets not forget that without some sort of Aimtrak/IR sensor set-up w/ their own guns, proper Light-gun games ain't happening on an LCD.

**Fix** an LCD? Bro, you just throw it away and buy another $800. Duh.

Your probably being sarcastic but that's exactly the problem with electronics these days. Companies purposely making Junk so people just throw it away and buy a new shiny thing. The hypocrisy of wanting everybody to Go Green but encouraging people to dump electronic waste in a third world country somewhere. Quality needs to make a comeback! (I can dream)

[yotsuya]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the repair-ability of LCD's vs. CRT's.   I've gained basic knowledge of soldering, and electronics, because of the arcade and console modding hobby. During my time I've been able to learn how to bring a handful of Arcade CRT's back from the dead, up-keeping my Sony PVM and Commodore 1084S TV's through component renewing, solder reflowing, etc.  I can probably keep my CRT's running for 20 more years, even after some of them are already 20-30+years old now.

Due to the complexity of LCD tech, the miniaturized and non-standard components, there is no way I'd be able to keep them up and running for that kind of lifespan.
Mind you, not all CRT's are going to have the ability of longevity like this. But for Arcade monitors like G07's and K7000's do, and soare parts are available and easily replaceable on their chassis'.

I mean, don't get me wrong, LCD's are fine for the size factor, especially in more modern looking cabinet builds that tend to be slimmer in form. But I'm pretty sure the LCD you install in your cabinet is not going to last 7 - 10 years from now.

Also...lets not forget that without some sort of Aimtrak/IR sensor set-up w/ their own guns, proper Light-gun games ain't happening on an LCD.

**Fix** an LCD? Bro, you just throw it away and buy another $800. Duh.

Your probably being sarcastic but that's exactly the problem with electronics these days. Companies purposely making Junk so people just throw it away and buy a new shiny thing. The hypocrisy of wanting everybody to Go Green but encouraging people to dump electronic waste in a third world country somewhere. Quality needs to make a comeback! (I can dream)

That was a joke for my homie Opt2Not, but I concur with your statement.

[opt2not]

**Fix** an LCD? Bro, you just throw it away and buy another $800. Duh.

Your probably being sarcastic but that's exactly the problem with electronics these days. Companies purposely making Junk so people just throw it away and buy a new shiny thing. The hypocrisy of wanting everybody to Go Green but encouraging people to dump electronic waste in a third world country somewhere. Quality needs to make a comeback! (I can dream)

That was a joke for my homie Opt2Not, but I concur with your statement.

Here here! 

[P.H.U.]

It is perfectly ok to be anti-LCD. In my view, LCD is a stop gap solution, not the answer. Besides just old games, entertainment in general suffers from the transmissive technology in LCD. I want true blacks. I want colors that aren't washed out. I want fast response times without blur. I want brightness uniformity.

With that said, we should all keep an eye out for the Oculus Rift (but what gamer isn't right?). It should be the first affordable consumer device that showcases OLED. Hopefully, from there, it snowballs. CRT and its derivative technologies are dead.

[bulbousbeard]

I totally agree that LCDs are stop gap. I'm not entirely satisfied with motion blur and crappy backlights, either. I can't wait for good OLED screens. Having said that, though, I just want to stress two things:

1. All technology is a stop gap solution. It's always going to get better.

2. The new G-Sync panels are very, very good. They're the first LCD screens that I feel comfortable recommending for arcade cabinet use.

I just got this monitor today:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824009658&cm_re=acer_gsync-_-24-009-658-_-Product

The Acer and the Asus ROG Swift are both excellent in different ways. The Acer is only 60hz, so it can't run games that run at 60.60hz and so on at full speed, so that's its downfall for arcade games. 4k, though, looks absolutely amazing in SDLMAME with the Lottes shader. They're both 1ms response time panels, and the motion blur is _not bad_. I'm incredibly picky when it comes to motion blur, and they're not as good as a CRT in this regard, but they are good enough to the point where even an arcade enthusiast would find it acceptable.

If you want to try out the Lottes shader, extract this into your SDLMAME folder and see the ume.ini file for configuration:
https://sites.google.com/site/bigbluefrontend/lottesshader.zip?attredirects=0&d=1

I'd offer a link to my SDLMAME build for Windows, but I remove the nag screens, and MAMEdev requested that I not distribute that version, so you can build or download SDLMAME yourself elsewhere I guess.

The Lottes shader is a HUGE step forward for CRT simulation, because it's the first one that has a shadowmask effect that doesn't look like butt. The other great thing about it is that it doesn't even require super high resolutions to look good (even though it looks mindblowing at 4k). Here are a couple of other screenshots I took of it awhile ago (it actually looks better with the settings in the archive I linked):

https://436e85e1-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/bigbluefrontend/mkscreenshot.png
https://436e85e1-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/bigbluefrontend/knightsscreenshot.png

I'll see if I can post some 4k screenshots at some point.

[lamprey]

I'll be pretty excited when I can get a 55" 4k g-sync tv/monitor for under $500. I've seen the g-sync in action on mame and it's really nice!

As a side note, I picked up a new 900 series NVidia card for my MAME cabinet, as my previous card took a dump. I don't need that level of card, but figured I'd get one because of their efficiency and I have to say they are pretty bad ass. At first I thought I had received a bum card because the fan wasn't running. But, it turns out, they run so cool, the fun doesn't need to run while just sitting on the desktop. Once you fire up something graphics intensive the fans will start to turn. But, it's pretty impressive even coming from the last generation of cards. So, I have that g-sync option in my back pocket if I ever need it.

[twistedsymphony]

The problem with G-Sync is that it doesn't help you in non-PC applications. like installing an LCD on an original Arcade board or using an LCD with a console.

Anyone who things most consumer grade LCDs have low lag comparable to a CRT is fooling themselves. I urge you to check out http://displaylag.com this guy uses a laser lag tester to measure the actual combined input and response time lag of consumer grade displays.... once you're looking above 24" and getting into HDTVs instead of PC monitors even the best displays still have 2 frames worth of lag. I'm sure there are better industrial monitors out there but good luck finding one at a cost comparable to a used arcade monitor.

---------

The other issue I have with LCDs is aspect ratio. if I want to use an original arcade cab that was built for a 27" 4:3 display most of the time it's litterally impossible to find a 4:3 LCD that size AND if you were to use a 16:9/16:10 and black bar the image it's impossible to get it to fit within the cab... your only option is to go with a smaller display and now your LCD is causing a very real and apparent determent to the image quality and gaming experience as a result.


I like LCDs I have an LCD cab with HLSL games look just as good as they do on a CRT IMO, but until the lag is fixed and until we can get 4:3 displays in 25" and 27" sizes for less than the cost of a new CRT they will not be a viable replacement.

[bulbousbeard]

I really don't know why someone would want to run an LCD monitor with an original PCB, though. Seems kind of off. If you care enough to have to run the original PCB, you might as well go all the way and use a CRT, too.

It depends on how big of a screen you really want. I agree that there isn't a good G-Sync monitor that's going to be the same size as a 4:3 29" CRT (it's just not going to happen for a while). For me, though, anything bigger than 25" is just too big. You have to turn your head to see all of the screen at that point. I don't think it's comfortable.

The 28" G-Sync monitor when running something at 2880x2160 (4:3) is the equivalent of a 23" 4:3 CRT. Personally, I think that's pretty damned good. It's still a nice size screen. It's not going to fill a candy cabinet, but you could fill any wood style cabinet with that size nicely.

Two more considerations: it is SO nice being able to run a monitor in a cabinet without EVER worrying about burn-in. You can really abuse the hell out of LCDs in this regard without getting burn in. I don't like even worrying about it.

The real Achilles Heel for LCDs is the motion blur. Even though the most recent 1ms G-Sync monitors are pretty great in this regard, I'm still not entirely satisfied. I want it all!

[sean_sk]

I've said this in another thread and I'll bring it here, that one of the only reasons why I'd have a cabinet fitted with an LCD (especially a high quality one as suggested by bulbousbeard) is for vector games. When I was a kid growing up at the arcades between 78-83 (the golden era of machines as far as I'm concerned) most of my favorites happened to be vectors, such as Asteroids, Speed Freak, Omega Race, Star Wars and a host of others. When I play these on my raster CRT based cabinet I lament how awful they look. Vector games on a raster CRT just doesn't work for me. Raster games, on the other hand, look glorious and I doubt I could turn to LCD for those (although I have to give credit to bulbousbeard for a convincing argument over the benefits of G-Sync monitors. You'd make a great salesman mate. I'm sure if I walked into a tech store you'd have me sold on a G-Sync monitor in no time. )

Given that vector monitors are next to to impossible to find, a high quality LCD would be the next best thing. The fine dot pitch on many of these displays would be able to reproduce reasonably clean anti-aliased lines more closely resembling the original vector lines than a raster CRT could ever do. I've seen some excellent results from guys who have experimented and mucked around with HLSL settings. I had entertained the idea of putting together another cab for this specific purpose and maybe I may get around to it one year.

The other issue I have with LCDs is aspect ratio. if I want to use an original arcade cab that was built for a 27" 4:3 display most of the time it's litterally impossible to find a 4:3 LCD that size AND if you were to use a 16:9/16:10 and black bar the image it's impossible to get it to fit within the cab... your only option is to go with a smaller display and now your LCD is causing a very real and apparent determent to the image quality and gaming experience as a result.


I like LCDs I have an LCD cab with HLSL games look just as good as they do on a CRT IMO, but until the lag is fixed and until we can get 4:3 displays in 25" and 27" sizes for less than the cost of a new CRT they will not be a viable replacement.

I have to agree with this that it's a shame it's so hard to get a decent 4:3 LCD these days. Was looking for a 26" for the purpose stated above.

[lamprey]

I've said this in another thread and I'll bring it here, that one of the only reasons why I'd have a cabinet fitted with an LCD (especially a high quality one as suggested by bulbousbeard) is for vector games. When I was a kid growing up at the arcades between 78-83 (the golden era of machines as far as I'm concerned) most of my favorites happened to be vectors, such as Asteroids, Speed Freak, Omega Race, Star Wars and a host of others. When I play these on my raster CRT based cabinet I lament how awful they look. Vector games on a raster CRT just doesn't work for me. Raster games, on the other hand, look glorious and I doubt I could turn to LCD for those (although I have to give credit to bulbousbeard for a convincing argument over the benefits of G-Sync monitors. You'd make a great salesman mate. I'm sure if I walked into a tech store you'd have me sold on a G-Sync monitor in no time. )

That's a good thought and one of mine as well . I'm (still) working on a Virtual Mame cabinet with a 55" 4k TV vertically oriented and I think it looks pretty cool. With the vector games, I'd be curious to know more about how mame handles the internal rendering. It could just be me, but it doesn't seem to render them at a high enough resolution to really take advantage of a 4k monitor. Perhaps, D3D is handling that and it's not strictly a matter of resolution, again I'm not familiar with how Mame does it. If the resolution is adjustable in some way, it would be nice to expose that as a parameter either to set the resolution or have a couple of presets for higher resolution rendering.

[twistedsymphony]

I really don't know why someone would want to run an LCD monitor with an original PCB, though. Seems kind of off. If you care enough to have to run the original PCB, you might as well go all the way and use a CRT, too.

CRTs are harder and harder to find.... I can walk into walmart and walk out with just about any sized LCD I want. or order one on Amazon and have it in 2 days for about $200.

If I want a CRT for a reasonable price I have to watching CraigsList for Weeks (Months?) and hope that someone sells a used one, for $75-$300 then I probably have to order a new flyback and cap kit to rebuild the thing, or send it out and have it rebuilt for another $150 and I probably have to tune and adjust it.... that's if one even ever pops up... if that doesn' happen my only options is to buy a junky Makvision for $600 + another $200 for shipping.

even if you prefer to play on the original PCBs, if you're missing a CRT or have a broken tube then finding a replacement is either prohibitively difficult or prohibitively expensive. There are many arcade operators and collectors alike who would rather be able to simply install a 4:3 LCD...

[lamprey]

There are many arcade operators and collectors alike who would rather be able to simply install a 4:3 LCD...

Man, good thing you didn't say that over at KLOV. They'd take out your entire family for saying that..

But, seriously, you are right it is getting painful to get "quality" CRT compared to getting a flat panel.

[sean_sk]

I really don't know why someone would want to run an LCD monitor with an original PCB, though. Seems kind of off. If you care enough to have to run the original PCB, you might as well go all the way and use a CRT, too.

CRTs are harder and harder to find.... I can walk into walmart and walk out with just about any sized LCD I want. or order one on Amazon and have it in 2 days for about $200.

If I want a CRT for a reasonable price I have to watching CraigsList for Weeks (Months?) and hope that someone sells a used one, for $75-$300 then I probably have to order a new flyback and cap kit to rebuild the thing, or send it out and have it rebuilt for another $150 and I probably have to tune and adjust it.... that's if one even ever pops up... if that doesn' happen my only options is to buy a junky Makvision for $600 + another $200 for shipping.

even if you prefer to play on the original PCBs, if you're missing a CRT or have a broken tube then finding a replacement is either prohibitively difficult or prohibitively expensive. There are many arcade operators and collectors alike who would rather be able to simply install a 4:3 LCD...

You can, in actual fact, turn most CRT TV's into arcade monitors.

I don't know what it's like where you guys are from but in Australia people are giving them away. In an Australian arcade forum that I'm a member of, one very helpful and kind fellow donated to me a 25" NEC TV, 2001 model in pristine condition. I ripped out the tube and bought a universal arcade chassis from a company in Perth that specialize in selling and servicing arcade monitors and other arcade equipment. The owner is probably one of the most knowledgeable guys in the field.

I had to take some readings from the yoke for him and then he sent me a new universal arcade chassis for a couple of hundred bucks. I connected it up, did some adjusting and it gives me a fantastic picture. The NEC tube was in near new condition. Looked like it had hardly been used so it should last many years. I do have a Samsung CRT TV manufactured the same year as the NEC also in excellent condition as a backup in the extremely highly unlikely event the NEC tube packs up, but generally the chassis is more likely to play up then the tube.

It's not multisync but, meh, I'm not fussed.

[twistedsymphony]

There are many arcade operators and collectors alike who would rather be able to simply install a 4:3 LCD...

Man, good thing you didn't say that over at KLOV. They'd take out your entire family for saying that..

But, seriously, you are right it is getting painful to get "quality" CRT compared to getting a flat panel.

You'd be surprised, I've been a participant in quite a few LCD vs CRT threads over there.

The general consensus among KLOVers is that 15K resolution games and "classics" NEED a CRT but once you get into the Medium and VGA res games from the mid-90s and newer they're a-ok with LCD swaps. Most of them they're dumping them into sit-down drivers like Cruisn' or San Fran Rush that are notorious for having failure prone Med res monitors. I agree for the most part but the lack of a 4:3 option means I'd still avoid it on those machines personally.

I really don't know why someone would want to run an LCD monitor with an original PCB, though. Seems kind of off. If you care enough to have to run the original PCB, you might as well go all the way and use a CRT, too.

CRTs are harder and harder to find.... I can walk into walmart and walk out with just about any sized LCD I want. or order one on Amazon and have it in 2 days for about $200.

If I want a CRT for a reasonable price I have to watching CraigsList for Weeks (Months?) and hope that someone sells a used one, for $75-$300 then I probably have to order a new flyback and cap kit to rebuild the thing, or send it out and have it rebuilt for another $150 and I probably have to tune and adjust it.... that's if one even ever pops up... if that doesn' happen my only options is to buy a junky Makvision for $600 + another $200 for shipping.

even if you prefer to play on the original PCBs, if you're missing a CRT or have a broken tube then finding a replacement is either prohibitively difficult or prohibitively expensive. There are many arcade operators and collectors alike who would rather be able to simply install a 4:3 LCD...

You can, in actual fact, turn most CRT TV's into arcade monitors.

I don't know what it's like where you guys are from but in Australia people are giving them away. In an Australian arcade forum that I'm a member of, one very helpful and kind fellow donated to me a 25" NEC TV, 2001 model in pristine condition. I ripped out the tube and bought a universal arcade chassis from a company in Perth that specialize in selling and servicing arcade monitors and other arcade equipment. The owner is probably one of the most knowledgeable guys in the field.

I had to take some readings from the yoke for him and then he sent me a new universal arcade chassis for a couple of hundred bucks. I connected it up, did some adjusting and it gives me a fantastic picture. The NEC tube was in near new condition. Looked like it had hardly been used so it should last many years. I do have a Samsung CRT TV manufactured the same year as the NEC also in excellent condition as a backup in the extremely highly unlikely event the NEC tube packs up, but generally the chassis is more likely to play up then the tube.

It's not multisync but, meh, I'm not fussed.

yeah, I'm aware of the ability to "tube swap" using CRT TVs... the problem is you don't have any idea what the neck connector or yoke readouts are going to be until you take the thing home and crack it open, and a few wrong guesses and you've suddenly obtained a small collection of old TVs that will cost you $25 a piece to dispose of.

Those "generic" arcade chassis are made by Wei-Ya... it's the same crap that comes in the Makvision monitors. they're ok if you need one but the 15K models pale in picture quality compared to the old Wells Gardner stuff and the Tri-Sync models also have the problem of being analog instead of digital, which means once they're adjusted for one video mode they're no longer adjusted for the other video modes... that's fine if you're only ever running 1 resolution on the thing... very much not ok if you're changing video modes regularly. I have one in my DDR cab and it's problematic because it uses a different resolution for the menus and game-play so I have to pick which one I want to look right.

[mamenewb100]

yeah, I'm aware of the ability to "tube swap" using CRT TVs... the problem is you don't have any idea what the neck connector or yoke readouts are going to be until you take the thing home and crack it open, and a few wrong guesses and you've suddenly obtained a small collection of old TVs that will cost you $25 a piece to dispose of.

Those "generic" arcade chassis are made by Wei-Ya... it's the same crap that comes in the Makvision monitors. they're ok if you need one but the 15K models pale in picture quality compared to the old Wells Gardner stuff and the Tri-Sync models also have the problem of being analog instead of digital, which means once they're adjusted for one video mode they're no longer adjusted for the other video modes... that's fine if you're only ever running 1 resolution on the thing... very much not ok if you're changing video modes regularly. I have one in my DDR cab and it's problematic because it uses a different resolution for the menus and game-play so I have to pick which one I want to look right.

I'm very surprised they are still selling new CRT Makvisions (or are they refurbished sold as new?). I bought an SVGA version a couple of years ago and everyone was thinking in a month or so there would be no more new Arcade Monitors ever made again. Maybe MAME Hobbyists are keeping them in business. Yes I agree that they are not the quality that they use to be but the picture is still very nice at low resolutions. One of the great things about the Makvision SVGA 31k monitor is that with GroovyMAME and ArcadeOSD you can get 15k resolutions by doubling the refresh rate. You can also get it to run as smooth as a regular 15K monitor by using black frame insertion for every other frame. You can also play newer 31k games without having to switch modes and change settings every time. It displays a very nice 640x480@60 Hz or 320x220@120 Hz but it looks ugly and blurry around the edges at 800x600@60 Hz. It doesn't look great in high res desktop mode but it's useful for browsing webpages. It remembers most resolutions well but it seems to go off-center for some reason on some resolutions. But that may be because my modelines are set wrong for those resolutions.

Also don't they sell Arcade Monitor versions of LCDs that are 4:3? I guess only up to 19" from what I've seen. Don't understand why they can't make 25" or 27" versions?

[lettuce]

I bought an SVGA version a couple of years ago and everyone was thinking in a month or so there would be no more new Arcade Monitors ever made again. Maybe MAME Hobbyists are keeping them in business. Yes I agree that they are not the quality that they use to be but the picture is still very nice at low resolutions. One of the great things about the Makvision SVGA 31k monitor is that with GroovyMAME and ArcadeOSD you can get 15k resolutions by doubling the refresh rate. You can also get it to run as smooth as a regular 15K monitor by using black frame insertion for every other frame. You can also play newer 31k games without having to switch modes and change settings every time. It displays a very nice 640x480@60 Hz or 320x220@120 Hz but it looks ugly and blurry around the edges at 800x600@60 Hz. It doesn't look great in high res desktop mode but it's useful for browsing webpages. It remembers most resolutions well but it seems to go off-center for some reason on some resolutions. But that may be because my modelines are set wrong for those resolutions.

In regards to this would a SVGA or Tri Sync monitor be better, you would obviously think the tri sync as you can get 15, 24 and 31khz res without messing about with double refresh rates but due to the nature of Mame and the PC in general switching refresh rates on the fly and regularly you can really shorten the life of the monitor??

[twistedsymphony]

if you can get a Nanao or Sanwa Tri-Sync I'd say those are much better than what you get with a Makvision.

[lettuce]

if you can get a Nanao or Sanwa Tri-Sync I'd say those are much better than what you get with a Makvision.

Sadly not going to happen, im even surprised there still new Makvision even available they MUST be the last of there kind up for sale!!??

[sean_sk]

Those "generic" arcade chassis are made by Wei-Ya...

Are they all made by Wei-Ya? Mine is a Sharp Image and I didn't think they were. I was quite impressed with the results of that chassis combined with the NEC tube. I was also told in the Aussie Arcade forums that many of the tubes found in televisions were of higher quality than those found in most arcade cabs, although as far as the chassis part of it goes, I don't know how it compare to many others, like the Wei-Ya, as I've never really seen any comparisons. I do know that when I bought the cab originally the arcade monitor in there was garbage and the results I'm getting now are superior. Yeah the picture adjustment options are more limited.

[Sledge]

As far as i'm concerned, Any game can be played on any technology available. It's up to the person who owns it and their circumstances..
Don't have enough room for a BIG CRT setup? Fine, use a LCD/Plasma.
For me personally, i think older games should be played on the older technology if possible.. Newer games like SF4? Easy to play on LCD's etc.
Just look at the arcades atm.. can you even find a CRT in any of the machines?

Though for me newer games will be played on consoles or PC, which means LCD TV etc

[bulbousbeard]

If you're going to get a Makvision, don't even bother with a CRT. A G-Sync monitor with SDLMAME and the Lottes shader basically looks more authentic than a Makvision. Makvisions are just cheap crap. They have a blurry picture and really thick, nasty looking scanlines.

[twistedsymphony]

... im even surprised there still new Makvision even available they MUST be the last of there kind up for sale!!??

I have no idea if they're still being manufactured but there are definitely a few places that still sell them new.

Those "generic" arcade chassis are made by Wei-Ya...

Are they all made by Wei-Ya? Mine is a Sharp Image and I didn't think they were. I was quite impressed with the results of that chassis combined with the NEC tube. I was also told in the Aussie Arcade forums that many of the tubes found in televisions were of higher quality than those found in most arcade cabs, although as far as the chassis part of it goes, I don't know how it compare to many others, like the Wei-Ya, as I've never really seen any comparisons. I do know that when I bought the cab originally the arcade monitor in there was garbage and the results I'm getting now are superior. Yeah the picture adjustment options are more limited.

AFAIK the only "new" generic chassis that have been manufactured within the last few years have been the Wei-Ya chassis, and they're sold under a few different brand names. If you know of where alternatives can be found I'd be interested.

If you're going to get a Makvision, don't even bother with a CRT. A G-Sync monitor with SDLMAME and the Lottes shader basically looks more authentic than a Makvision. Makvisions are just cheap crap. They have a blurry picture and really thick, nasty looking scanlines.

I own a 27" Makvision tri-sync and while I don't really care for the monitor (especially in comparison to other models by Nanao, WG and NeoTek),  I would not consider them to have a "blurry picture" or "thick, nasty looking scanlines". I could write a long list of my complaints about these monitors but those wouldn't be on them... "cheap" construction wouldn't be on the list either... I actually find it very well put together.

If you're getting oversized scanline and a blurry picture then you've probably got something wrong with your setup. I've heard those complaints by people running MAME, but never from people running actual arcade PCBs on these monitors (which includes myself).

[cools]

The Wei Ya chassis are fine, it's the Samsung/Phillips tubes they are paired with "new" that aren't great, though the combination can be adjusted to a nice quality image with some effort.

Despite their imperfections and limitations, for games I'd take a CRT rather than an LCD any day of the week.

[twistedsymphony]

The Wei Ya chassis are fine, it's the Samsung/Phillips tubes they are paired with "new" that aren't great, though the combination can be adjusted to a nice quality image with some effort.

Despite their imperfections and limitations, for games I'd take a CRT rather than an LCD any day of the week.

I use one of these to adjust all of my monitors: http://www.amazon.com/Datacolor-Spyder4Pro-S4P100-Colorimeter-Calibration/dp/B006TF37H8/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1414498861&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=data+pro+coloremter

I only have experience with their 27" tri-sync chassis, I've heard the 24.8" are better.

My biggest quality gripe with the Wei-Ya stuff is that the image is washed out compared to a "good" one, I can't get it adjusted to a perfect color profile before I run out of range on the pots.... this includes a tube from a Med Res Nanao monitor that was "upgraded" to a Wei-Ya tri-sync chassis.

It also doesn't support interlaced video modes which is problematic for games that use that (DDR for example runs in 480i during non-gameplay modes such as song selection and the end of song stat pages).

Finally as a tri-sync and being analog if you're running something like GroovyMAME that switches to the proper mode with every game selected then the adjustments you made to the pots are only accurate for whatever mode you adjusted them on, so as soon as it changes modes it's no longer properly adjusted anymore. This mostly just effects geometry, but I've had situations where the hold becomes off for some resolutions and needs to be re-adjusted which IMO makes it worthless for a MAME environment.

I have a WG D9200 and a Neotec NT-500DX (both 27" tri-syncs) and neither of them have any of the above problems. I ended up relegating my Makvision to a non MAME cabinet where the resolution doesn't ever change and finding a different tri-sync (that D9200)  to use for my MAME build.

All three of the problems I mentioned are just short-sighted design issues. First and foremost making an analog tri-sync is just foolish, anything that's going to support a lot of modes needs to be able to be store different adjustment settings for each mode. they needed to include support for interlaced modes and they needed to include larger adjustment ranges.

[bulbousbeard]

The Wei Yas are definitely not fine. The corners of the screen are as blurry as crap at 800x600, and at 15khz, the scanlines look thick and weird, and the picture is soft. Wei Yas almost look like you have bilinear filtering turned on.

[cools]

twistedsymphony: I agree that not having separate adjustments for 15/25/31k geometry is a pain, but I'd argue if you're live sync switching on a Wei Ya you're being foolish. They are not robust enough to handle it. What model did you have that didn't support interlaced? The ones I've used have.

bulbousbeard: What arcade games worth playing run at 800x600?

Run 31k on them with a decent tube and they're fine. Fake scanlines for low res stuff. 15k on a decent tube isn't bad, the side compression is off putting though.

They are cheap universal chassis for arcade cabinets running a single game at a time, expecting them to be the dogs danglies for the price 

Or spend $1500+ on a Toshiba tri-sync. There's no shortage of these in ex Japan Sega Naomi cabinets. No need to mess around with shaders, doubled refresh rates, black frame insertion and screens that won't fit real cabinet bezels. Real deal.

[twistedsymphony]

twistedsymphony: I agree that not having separate adjustments for 15/25/31k geometry is a pain, but I'd argue if you're live sync switching on a Wei Ya you're being foolish. They are not robust enough to handle it. What model did you have that didn't support interlaced? The ones I've used have.

I honestly don't know what model mine is off the top of my head... it's one of the 27" Tri-Syncs with the flat front tube. It was new in the box but I bought it from someone who was liquidating all of their parts and equipment so I managed to snag it for $100 on a local pickup so I didn't really ask any questions 

I had bought it to replace the failing monitor in my DDR until I discovered that it couldn't handle the interlaced modes so I tried to use it in a MAME cab and ran into the problem of the geometry being messed up every-time the video mode changed. At that point I had swapped the DDR PCB out for a PC running StepMania so I put it back in the DDR where it just runs 640x480p 100% of the time ... of course if I ever put the original PCB back in it I'll have to find another monitor to use.

---------------------------

I'm not complaining for $100 It's more than worth what I paid even with it's problems, but people need to talk about these things because just about everywhere I look on arcade forums people are talking about how great Makvision monitors are, when 90% of the time they're using them in one mode the whole time and have little experience with the far superior alternative out in the wild for a basis of comparison.

The Makvision is marketed in most places as being an ideal monitor for MAME, when it's really not, if you want the best MAME experience you'll want to run lots of different video modes and that's where the Makvision starts to fall on it's face. I've seen more than a few people spend $800 after shipping on these things only to come away crushed with the lack of quality and problematic design and it's really not their fault considering how many people who have no business giving monitor buying advice talk them up.

[Calamity]

Finally as a tri-sync and being analog if you're running something like GroovyMAME that switches to the proper mode with every game selected then the adjustments you made to the pots are only accurate for whatever mode you adjusted them on, so as soon as it changes modes it's no longer properly adjusted anymore. This mostly just effects geometry, but I've had situations where the hold becomes off for some resolutions and needs to be re-adjusted which IMO makes it worthless for a MAME environment.

Just for the record, the purpose of the custom crt_range settings in GroovyMAME is exactly to avoid the situation you're describing. The fact that the chassis is analog doesn't mean you need to make adjustments to the pots when changing modes, once you have properly calibrated crt_ranges. This is how I have my Polostar (analog) tri-sync, and the only thing that needs to be adjusted is the vertical size, which is expected.

That said, it is true that tri-sync monitors are just native "high" res monitors with a custom chassis that allows syncing at 15 / 25 kHz too. So the best geometry is usually only achieved in the 31 kHz range. Unless you're using them with PCBs it's usually better to use 31 kHz + software scanlines.

The scalines of a tri-sync monitor are also thinner so "high" res progressive modes are possible, but the side effect is that at 15 KHz the scanlines are too separated. The result is somewhat in the middle of a PC CRT monitor with software scanlines and a true 15 kHz CRT. This also makes 15 kHz interlaced modes look nasty (25 kHz interlaced looks fine however).

Having tested both, I prefer true 15 kHz monitors.

[cools]

The Makvision is marketed in most places as being an ideal monitor for MAME, when it's really not, if you want the best MAME experience you'll want to run lots of different video modes and that's where the Makvision starts to fall on it's face. I've seen more than a few people spend $800 after shipping on these things only to come away crushed with the lack of quality and problematic design and it's really not their fault considering how many people who have no business giving monitor buying advice talk them up.

This is a US-centric thing. In Europe the Wei Ya is widely slagged off and recommended only as a last ditch thing or if you want to tri-sync a normally 15k cab, and even then people try to talk others out of doing it and just stick with the original chassis. I quite like them as a quick and dirty 31k software scanlines MAME monitor, but they don't half take a lot of work to set up - the B+ is normally wrong from the factory for a start.

[twistedsymphony]

Just for the record, the purpose of the custom crt_range settings in GroovyMAME is exactly to avoid the situation you're describing. The fact that the chassis is analog doesn't mean you need to make adjustments to the pots when changing modes, once you have properly calibrated crt_ranges. This is how I have my Polostar (analog) tri-sync, and the only thing that needs to be adjusted is the vertical size, which is expected.

That said, it is true that tri-sync monitors are just native "high" res monitors with a custom chassis that allows syncing at 15 / 25 kHz too. So the best geometry is usually only achieved in the 31 kHz range. Unless you're using them with PCBs it's usually better to use 31 kHz + software scanlines.

The scalines of a tri-sync monitor are also thinner so "high" res progressive modes are possible, but the side effect is that at 15 KHz the scanlines are too separated. The result is somewhat in the middle of a PC CRT monitor with software scanlines and a true 15 kHz CRT. This also makes 15 kHz interlaced modes look nasty (25 kHz interlaced looks fine however).

Having tested both, I prefer true 15 kHz monitors.

FWIW I've recently added a Kraylix cab to my collection and moved my main MAME machine to that. I'll probably shelve the Tri-Syncs for another project but I'll keep that in mind. My only remaining CRT MAME cab has a 15K monitor and it definitely needs the geomtry dialed in but it's also in need of a cap kit so I figure I'll do that first so I don't have to run the adjustments twice.

This is a US-centric thing. In Europe the Wei Ya is widely slagged off and recommended only as a last ditch thing or if you want to tri-sync a normally 15k cab, and even then people try to talk others out of doing it and just stick with the original chassis. I quite like them as a quick and dirty 31k software scanlines MAME monitor, but they don't half take a lot of work to set up - the B+ is normally wrong from the factory for a start.

Good to know this foolishness isn't world wide. I am often Jealous of Europe's access to Japanese candy cabs. They're so uncommon in my part of the US I've never even seen one in person outside of the occasional Virtua Tennis or Sega Bass Fishing (because those games shipped in modified Naomi Universals and Blast Citys respectively here in the US).

[bulbousbeard]

bulbousbeard: What arcade games worth playing run at 800x600?

Street Fighter IV and Mortal Kombat 9. They pretty much need it. 640x480 in those games is pretty awful.

[opt2not]

Well both of those are modern widescreen + high-res games. While they are playable in a 4:3 format in lower res, they weren't originally authored to be that way.
Whereas arcade games prior to the LCD generation of arcade games were originally built for 4:3 low-res monitors, with scanlines enabled.

A better example of wanting to run games in 800x600 are the Naomi titles like Ikaruga, Virtua Tennis, Crazy Taxi, etc...

[bulbousbeard]

Well both of those are modern widescreen + high-res games. While they are playable in a 4:3 format in lower res, they weren't originally authored to be that way.
Whereas arcade games prior to the LCD generation of arcade games were originally built for 4:3 low-res monitors, with scanlines enabled.

A better example of wanting to run games in 800x600 are the Naomi titles like Ikaruga, Virtua Tennis, Crazy Taxi, etc...

SFIV at least is better at 4:3 than 16:9. At 16:9, the camera is zoomed in really far (the characters' heads are almost touching the energy bars). When you play it at 4:3, it pulls the camera out a bit to give them the same amount of horizontal space, and the proportions of everything are a lot closer to SF2. I think it's the best way to play SFIV.

[twistedsymphony]

NAOMI games are mostly designed for VGA 640x480

...but Some of them are are designed for 15K (like Street Fighter Zero 3 Upper) and look best when running on a 15K monitor or in a simulated 15K mode with scanlines.

I run NAOMI on my LCD cab and while the 3D aspects of the games looks good rendered at higher resolutions, any game that uses sprites or has 2D overlays for the HUD or menus tends to look not so good.

[opt2not]

NAOMI games are mostly designed for VGA 640x480

Whoops, you're right. Don't know why I thought 800x600...because I run NAOMI titles on my candy cabinet's dual-res monitor at 24khz. Doh, thanks for the correction.

That being said, yeah, I can't think of a real good reason to be running arcade games in 800x600.

SFIV at least is better at 4:3 than 16:9. At 16:9, the camera is zoomed in really far (the characters' heads are almost touching the energy bars). When you play it at 4:3, it pulls the camera out a bit to give them the same amount of horizontal space, and the proportions of everything are a lot closer to SF2. I think it's the best way to play SFIV.

While I do play USF4 on my 4:3 candy cabinet at med-res, mainly for the fact of having it running in a cab for legitimacy, I do prefer playing it in the way it was intended.  If I had a Vewlix, you know damn well I'd be running it on that.
But the differences you're talking about aren't really that big, and don't forget, you can adjust the positioning of the health and focus-meter HUD elements.

Street Fighter IV and Mortal Kombat 9. They pretty much need it. 640x480 in those games is pretty awful.

USF4 @ 24khz in my NAC looks pretty damn good to me :

[twistedsymphony]

I've got a Kraylix with a really nice Samsung LCD for running Tatio Type X stuff.... SFIV and Blaz Blue look absolutely gorgeous... even 15K MAME games look great with HLSL. Ironically its the 24K and 31K res stuff that looks the worst.

[bulbousbeard]

I've got a Kraylix with a really nice Samsung LCD for running Tatio Type X stuff.... SFIV and Blaz Blue look absolutely gorgeous... even 15K MAME games look great with HLSL. Ironically its the 24K and 31K res stuff that looks the worst.

Try SDLMAME with Timothy Lottes's shader. The 24khz and 31khz stuff looks awesome in it. HLSL in Windows MAME is getting a bit long in the tooth. It's not even close to the best option anymore.

[bulbousbeard]

While I do play USF4 on my 4:3 candy cabinet at med-res, mainly for the fact of having it running in a cab for legitimacy, I do prefer playing it in the way it was intended.  If I had a Vewlix, you know damn well I'd be running it on that.
But the differences you're talking about aren't really that big, and don't forget, you can adjust the positioning of the health and focus-meter HUD elements.

I'm not sure about intentions, but the best monitor in the world for SFIV is the ROG Swift.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236405&cm_re=rog_swift-_-24-236-405-_-Product

SFIV @ 2560x1440 144hz is really amazing. It's SO smooth and responsive, and because it's G-Sync, it's the lowest input lag version of SFIV available anywhere. It's better than the huge laggy LCDs they threw in the real SFIV cabs.

[Calamity]

I moved the UME related stuff here: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,142174.0.html

[zebidia]

Greetings everyone. I am making my first post on this site as someone whose brain is completely fried from trying to wade thru the vast sea of conflicting information, re: building a MAME arcade system. Never before have I experienced such powerful analysis paralysis.

Basically, all I wanted to do was spec out the best hardware and software components that would, as faithfully as possible, allow me to play such classics as Ms. PacMan, Galaga, Defender and DKjr. Two full weeks of research and I was basically ready to throw in the towel; I simply could not, make heads or tails out of the available information. Multiple versions of MAME, seemingly with sub-versions for different OSes, with no clear picture of which one to choose and why. And the issue of what display technology to use is even more overwhelmingly. Do I get a stupidly expensive RGB CRT (not a regular old North American, 24" Sony Trinitron TV, mind -- something I did foolishly pick up, thinking it would be great, but I now believe will be crap), or do I spend a small fortune on a shiny new, G-Sync LCD? And what input device should I get (I have an X-Arcade TankStick on its way, but I now believe that it will introduce some ugly lag issues, so it was probably not a good choice).

Given my inablity to make any sound decisions inall these matters, I was hoping someone could tell me if buying a 4-slot Neo Geo cabinet would be a good starting point for a MAME conversion (I know, it's considered by many to be sacrilege to mod a perfectly good New Geo cabinet, but I personally have no issue with it, particularly if I keep all the original parts intact)? Is the NG monitor the 'proper' type (assuming it's original), and if so, would I need to get an HD 4xxx ATI card and use CRT_Emu, etc., to drive it? There's a New Geo for sale locally for $1200, and I can't help but think that, from a hardware perspective, using it would be the path of least resistance.

Thanks in advance for any insight anyone can give. And thanks, also, to everyone here whose insights cleared up a lot of confusion I've had over the last couple of weeks. I wish I'd found this web site a long time ago, but strangely only happened upon it a couple of days ago.

[cools]

Path of least resistance - don't skimp on the hardware, use the latest software. People use older versions of MAME for various reasons, but in qualitative terms newer = more accurate:
1) If you want it proper for those games, you'll need two cabinets or one with a monitor that you can rotate. The Neo Geo has the correct monitor type, but it's unlikely to be rotatable. It'd be fine for Defender if you are okay playing Defender with a stick. Seems pricey though.
2) Buy the fastest single thread processor PC you can find. https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html (caveat, the Core i3 that's near the top is not as good as it appears, the lower processors beat it when they run at their "Turbo" clock speed)
3) Use CRT_Emudriver and GroovyMAME, latest versions. Windows 7 64bit.
4) Use a JammASD or a J-PAC to interface your controls.

[twistedsymphony]

Basically, all I wanted to do was spec out the best hardware and software components that would, as faithfully as possible, allow me to play such classics as Ms. PacMan, Galaga, Defender and DKjr.

I had a similar goal with a recent machine that I built. I took a Donkey Kong arcade machine that had a non-working PCB but was otherwise complete.

I kept the original Sanyo 20ez CRT monitor, I removed the old harness (it was in bad shape and wasn't original) and replaced it with a brand new JAMMA harness. then I used a J-PAC for a PC interface.

The machine didn't have the original Nintendo power supply so I removed the junky supply that was in there and I installed a normal power outlet in a metal box (the usual stuff from home depot) where the power supply normally goes so that I could plug the PC into it. I ran the wires from the junction block that was already in the cabinet it it would switch on and off with the external power switch.

for the PC I bought a slim Micro-ATX case with a power supply and then spent $50 on a used Micro-ATX Motherboard that came with 2GB of ram and Core2Duo CPU (more than ample to run classic games through MAME as well as modern PC games with the graphics turned down, but if you wanted to run newer emulated stuff like  NAOMI or PS2 you'd definitely need more than that). I then bought a low-profile ATi HD4350 to use as a video card along with a DVI to VGA cable to hook into the J-PAC. I'm also using an 60GB SSD drive just for better reliability and loading times. The fewer moving parts the more reliable and less noisy the machine will be, the whole PC only has 3 moving parts: the CPU fan, the case fan and the PSU fan. I intentionally sought out a Graphics card without a fan and went with an SSD hard drive for this reason.

on the PC I'm running a normal Windows XP install, I went through and disabled any features I didn't need and did some other tweaks to make it boot and run faster. I also went into the bios and set it up to automatically boot up whenever power is applied. I'm running the latest GroovyMAME for MAME as well as CRT_EmuDriver for proper video output. In addition to MAME I'm also running Fix it Felix Jr and the PC version of Ikaruga (one of my favorite vertical shooters).

Here's what the inside of the cab looks like:

I mounted the PC to the side of the cab using some angle aluminum from home depot and I also screwed the J-PAC into the side of the PC case. My goal was to make as little modifications as possible to the original cabinet... in the end there was 2 new screw holes for the power outlet and 2 new screw holes for the upper case mount bracket and that's it.

For the control panel I opted to go with an Ultimarc Servo stick because I wanted to play both 4-way and 8-way games with a properly gated stick, and I used typical Happ push buttons for the buttons. if you wanted a more authentic feel there's no reason you couldn't go with a Wilco leaf switch and buttons like the original Pac-Mans and Galagas used to have.


here's the running machine:

after the picture I've given it fresh t-molding and I still need to patch and paint the sides and apply the side art but it's a very authentic looking and feeling machine. and I didn't spend a boat-load on hardware either... total I think I spent about $120 for case, psu, mobo, graphics card and ssd.

------------------

I have 3 "MAME" machine and I always try to have the most authentic gameplay possible while making a few small exceptions for versatility sake. So for instance an original arcade CRT with CRT_EmuDriver and GroovyMAME is one of the best things I've found for an authentic LOOK to all of your games short of using the original game PCBs. Using the original sticks and buttons would give you the authentic feel but I opted for the Servo Stick just to open my options a bit... most classics outside of Nintendo didn't use microswitches though and IMO that's a big part of the feel of the controls you use too.

[sean_sk]

here's the running machine:

Very jealous dude. I've wanted to put together a Fix-It Felix cab for a long time, but haven't had the opportunity. Looks great!

[zebidia]

Path of least resistance - don't skimp on the hardware, use the latest software. People use older versions of MAME for various reasons, but in qualitative terms newer = more accurate:
1) If you want it proper for those games, you'll need two cabinets or one with a monitor that you can rotate. The Neo Geo has the correct monitor type, but it's unlikely to be rotatable. It'd be fine for Defender if you are okay playing Defender with a stick. Seems pricey though.
2) Buy the fastest single thread processor PC you can find. https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html (caveat, the Core i3 that's near the top is not as good as it appears, the lower processors beat it when they run at their "Turbo" clock speed)
3) Use CRT_Emudriver and GroovyMAME, latest verqsions. Windows 7 64bit.
4) Use a JammASD or a J-PAC to interface your controls.

Thanks, cools.

I think your first list item has convinced me that I am going to be better off just laying out some big cash on a good g-sync monitor. On page 1 of this thread, BulbousBeard made a post that makes me even more comfortable with this decision:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,138196.msg1469654.html#msg1469654

Although BulbousBeard does state the following:

"...  with a properly configured SDLMAME and tell me that it doesn't blow you away."

I now need to find out why SDLMAME is a thing, and why it should be used instead of plain ol' vanilla MAME. Heavy sigh.

[twistedsymphony]

I'm confused.... how did you come away from cools' post thinking you needed a G-Sync monitor?

If you want to play Street Fighter IV or Injustic or you want a LCD candy style cab, then by-all means go with a G-Sync.

If you want an authenic feeling "classics" arcade machine then spending the money on a G-Sync instead of just buying an Arcade CRT is just foolish IMO.

[zebidia]

I'm confused.... how did you come away from cools' post thinking you needed a G-Sync monitor?

If you want to play Street Fighter IV or Injustic or you want a LCD candy style cab, then by-all means go with a G-Sync.

If you want an authenic feeling "classics" arcade machine then spending the money on a G-Sync instead of just buying an Arcade CRT is just foolish IMO.

The suggestion that I might want two cabinets is the clincher for me... I absolutely don't want to go this far. As far as I can tell, a good, hi-res LCD (like the g-sync model linked to by BulbousBeard) will allow for both horizontal and vertical game-play, without rotating the monitor, and if the monitor is large enough, vertical games will still look plenty big. But note that it's quite possible I don't know what the heck I'm talking about, as my opening post makes evident.

And another perk of LCD is that I can slide out the kbd/mouse combo I intend to have in my cabinet and play some FPSes in all their hi-res glory. Seems like an all around win to me.

I should also note that finding a good, working RGB CRT seems like a major undertaking, at least where I live. I dread the thought of receiving something shipped from across country (Canada), or worse yet, from another country (the US), that plain doesn't work, or works poorly. I don't have the skills to remedy such things.

[twistedsymphony]

I'm confused.... how did you come away from cools' post thinking you needed a G-Sync monitor?

If you want to play Street Fighter IV or Injustic or you want a LCD candy style cab, then by-all means go with a G-Sync.

If you want an authenic feeling "classics" arcade machine then spending the money on a G-Sync instead of just buying an Arcade CRT is just foolish IMO.

The suggestion that I might want two cabinets is the clincher for me... I absolutely don't want to go this far. As far as I can tell, a good, hi-res LCD (like the g-sync model linked to by BulbousBeard) will allow for both horizontal and vertical game-play, without rotating the monitor, and if the monitor is large enough, vertical games will still look plenty big. But note that it's quite possible I don't know what the heck I'm talking about, as my opening post makes evident.

And another perk of LCD is that I can slide out the kbd/mouse combo I intend to have in my cabinet and play some FPSes in all their hi-res glory. Seems like an all around win to me.

I should also note that finding a good, working RGB CRT seems like a major undertaking, at least where I live. I dread the thought of receiving something shipped from across country (Canada), or worse yet, from another country (the US), that plain doesn't work, or works poorly. I don't have the skills to remedy such things.

Why someone would want to use a keyboard and mouse to play an FPS on an arcade machine is beyond me... that seems WAY out of the realm of what you listed as your original goal.

As for an LCD being better for rotated games, I'd argue the opposite is true. You can run any vertical game on any horizontal monitor, including a CRT, and LCD doesn't make it any better or worse; however if you're using a widescreen LCD as opposed to a similar width CRT you're going to have even LESS visible screen area when playing vertical games.

If you do want to have a proper arcade cab with a proper arcade monitor and a rotating screen the best cab I've heard for easily rotating monitors is a Taito Egret II, supposedly it can be done in a matter of seconds without any tools, There are cheaper options such as Taito's Double Dragon cabinet that take a couple of minutes and a little bit of muscle to rotate the monitor (but still no tools). Or you can just have the games virtually rotated on the CRT... if you go with a CRT.

I know a lot of people on this forum seem to want to build a single machine that plays every game ever made, but IMO once you have more than one set of controls attached to an arcade cabinet it completely defeats the purpose of having an arcade cabinet, and you'd be better off just having a PC hooked up to your HDTV with a number of different controllers and joysticks that you can hook up and swap out depending on what game you're playing.

You, of course, may do whatever you like... that's just my 2 cents.

[yotsuya]

Why someone would want to use a keyboard and mouse to play an FPS on an arcade machine is beyond me... that seems WAY out of the realm of what you listed as your original goal.

As for an LCD being better for rotated games, I'd argue the opposite is true. You can run any vertical game on any horizontal monitor, including a CRT, and LCD doesn't make it any better or worse; however if you're using a widescreen LCD as opposed to a similar width CRT you're going to have even LESS visible screen area when playing vertical games.

If you do want to have a proper arcade cab with a proper arcade monitor and a rotating screen the best cab I've heard for easily rotating monitors is a Taito Egret II, supposedly it can be done in a matter of seconds without any tools, There are cheaper options such as Taito's Double Dragon cabinet that take a couple of minutes and a little bit of muscle to rotate the monitor (but still no tools). Or you can just have the games virtually rotated on the CRT... if you go with a CRT.

I know a lot of people on this forum seem to want to build a single machine that plays every game ever made, but IMO once you have more than one set of controls attached to an arcade cabinet it completely defeats the purpose of having an arcade cabinet, and you'd be better off just having a PC hooked up to your HDTV with a number of different controllers and joysticks that you can hook up and swap out depending on what game you're playing.

You, of course, may do whatever you like... that's just my 2 cents.

I'd post the Kane Clapping .gif , but I already used it today, so allow me to say bravo to you with this....

[zebidia]

I'm confused.... how did you come away from cools' post thinking you needed a G-Sync monitor?

If you want to play Street Fighter IV or Injustic or you want a LCD candy style cab, then by-all means go with a G-Sync.

If you want an authenic feeling "classics" arcade machine then spending the money on a G-Sync instead of just buying an Arcade CRT is just foolish IMO.

The suggestion that I might want two cabinets is the clincher for me... I absolutely don't want to go this far. As far as I can tell, a good, hi-res LCD (like the g-sync model linked to by BulbousBeard) will allow for both horizontal and vertical game-play, without rotating the monitor, and if the monitor is large enough, vertical games will still look plenty big. But note that it's quite possible I don't know what the heck I'm talking about, as my opening post makes evident.

And another perk of LCD is that I can slide out the kbd/mouse combo I intend to have in my cabinet and play some FPSes in all their hi-res glory. Seems like an all around win to me.

I should also note that finding a good, working RGB CRT seems like a major undertaking, at least where I live. I dread the thought of receiving something shipped from across country (Canada), or worse yet, from another country (the US), that plain doesn't work, or works poorly. I don't have the skills to remedy such things.

Why someone would want to use a keyboard and mouse to play an FPS on an arcade machine is beyond me... that seems WAY out of the realm of what you listed as your original goal.

As for an LCD being better for rotated games, I'd argue the opposite is true. You can run any vertical game on any horizontal monitor, including a CRT, and LCD doesn't make it any better or worse; however if you're using a widescreen LCD as opposed to a similar width CRT you're going to have even LESS visible screen area when playing vertical games.

If you do want to have a proper arcade cab with a proper arcade monitor and a rotating screen the best cab I've heard for easily rotating monitors is a Taito Egret II, supposedly it can be done in a matter of seconds without any tools, There are cheaper options such as Taito's Double Dragon cabinet that take a couple of minutes and a little bit of muscle to rotate the monitor (but still no tools). Or you can just have the games virtually rotated on the CRT... if you go with a CRT.

I know a lot of people on this forum seem to want to build a single machine that plays every game ever made, but IMO once you have more than one set of controls attached to an arcade cabinet it completely defeats the purpose of having an arcade cabinet, and you'd be better off just having a PC hooked up to your HDTV with a number of different controllers and joysticks that you can hook up and swap out depending on what game you're playing.

You, of course, may do whatever you like... that's just my 2 cents.

For me, the 'purpose' of having an arcade cabinet is so I can stand up while playing some of the funnest games ever made (old-school stuff, like the ones I mention in my OP), and also to be able to play two player games with my buddies and/or wife (who is also, technically, a buddy )... It makes the games much more intimate, if you like. And for me, there is absolutely, positively no religious zealotry associated with arcade cabinets;  they are simply another way for me to enjoy video games, and in my case, that might/will include FPSes.

But the real draw of a cabinet is simply that: It's a cabinet. It looks great, and if built right, is tremendously comfortable and pleasing to interface with. I guess that is the true 'authenticity' aspect of it I was referring to in my OP.

[Vigo]

For me, the 'purpose' of having an arcade cabinet is so I can stand up while playing some of the funnest games ever made (old-school stuff, like the ones I mention in my OP), and also to be able to play two player games with my buddies and/or wife (who is also, technically, a buddy )... It makes the games much more intimate, if you like. And for me, there is absolutely, positively no religious zealotry associated with arcade cabinets;  they are simply another way for me to enjoy video games, and in my case, that might/will include FPSes.

But the real draw of a cabinet is simply that: It's a cabinet. It looks great, and if built right, is tremendously comfortable and pleasing to interface with. I guess that is the true 'authenticity' aspect of it I was referring to in my OP.

You got the right outlook. I got the feeling you will realize that FPS's are not a good fit for a cab, a lot of people think that "couch games" fit well for cabs until it gets to the practical side of using the cab and those games go unplayed. Light gun games on the other hand, those can be a blast. My personal opinion is that you would be just as happy saving some coin on a non g-sync monitor and doing a cab that focuses only on arcade games, but draw your own conclusions and do what you think is best. 

[zebidia]

For me, the 'purpose' of having an arcade cabinet is so I can stand up while playing some of the funnest games ever made (old-school stuff, like the ones I mention in my OP), and also to be able to play two player games with my buddies and/or wife (who is also, technically, a buddy )... It makes the games much more intimate, if you like. And for me, there is absolutely, positively no religious zealotry associated with arcade cabinets;  they are simply another way for me to enjoy video games, and in my case, that might/will include FPSes.

But the real draw of a cabinet is simply that: It's a cabinet. It looks great, and if built right, is tremendously comfortable and pleasing to interface with. I guess that is the true 'authenticity' aspect of it I was referring to in my OP.

You got the right outlook. I got the feeling you will realize that FPS's are not a good fit for a cab, a lot of people think that "couch games" fit well for cabs until it gets to the practical side of using the cab and those games go unplayed. Light gun games on the other hand, those can be a blast. My personal opinion is that you would be just as happy saving some coin on a non g-sync monitor and doing a cab that focuses only on arcade games, but draw your own conclusions and do what you think is best. 

Not sure why you'd say a cabinet is not a good fit for an FPS, given a high quality LCD monitor, but if it's simply because of the standing position, I must say that I work at a computer all day long at a standing desk, and I also play FPSes on that same computer, again, standing. So I'm quite comfortable in a standing position. I also have a walking treadmill at my standing desk, and thus walk while I'm working (for at least a couple of hours a day). The only issue I can see with playing FPSes is that the kbd/mouse tray may be too low (it will be under the X-Arcade TankStick, after all), but I should be able to come up with something to remedy that.

Tracking down a good RGB CRT monitor feels like a way bigger job than I'm willing to take on. I would have to order one from eBay or somewhere, and that freaks me out. Not to mention the seeming degree in rocket science I would need to administer such a monitor through my PC. Makes my head hurt thinking about it.

[sean_sk]

And for me, there is absolutely, positively no religious zealotry associated with arcade cabinets;  they are simply another way for me to enjoy video games, and in my case, that might/will include FPSes.

But the real draw of a cabinet is simply that: It's a cabinet. It looks great, and if built right, is tremendously comfortable and pleasing to interface with. I guess that is the true 'authenticity' aspect of it I was referring to in my OP.

That's fair enough. I say go for the setup that is perfect for you. That's the beauty about this hobby, you can do whatever you like. Just don't put together a monstrosity akin to what is found here: http://www.wickedretarded.com/~crapmame/    That always gives me a good chuckle.

[Vigo]

For me, the 'purpose' of having an arcade cabinet is so I can stand up while playing some of the funnest games ever made (old-school stuff, like the ones I mention in my OP), and also to be able to play two player games with my buddies and/or wife (who is also, technically, a buddy )... It makes the games much more intimate, if you like. And for me, there is absolutely, positively no religious zealotry associated with arcade cabinets;  they are simply another way for me to enjoy video games, and in my case, that might/will include FPSes.

But the real draw of a cabinet is simply that: It's a cabinet. It looks great, and if built right, is tremendously comfortable and pleasing to interface with. I guess that is the true 'authenticity' aspect of it I was referring to in my OP.

You got the right outlook. I got the feeling you will realize that FPS's are not a good fit for a cab, a lot of people think that "couch games" fit well for cabs until it gets to the practical side of using the cab and those games go unplayed. Light gun games on the other hand, those can be a blast. My personal opinion is that you would be just as happy saving some coin on a non g-sync monitor and doing a cab that focuses only on arcade games, but draw your own conclusions and do what you think is best. 

Not sure why you'd say a cabinet is not a good fit for an FPS, given a high quality LCD monitor, but if it's simply because of the standing position, I must say that I work at a computer all day long at a standing desk, and I also play FPSes on that same computer, again, standing. So I'm quite comfortable in a standing position. I also have a walking treadmill at my standing desk, and thus walk while I'm working (for at least a couple of hours a day). The only issue I can see with playing FPSes is that the kbd/mouse tray may be too low (it will be under the X-Arcade TankStick, after all), but I should be able to come up with something to remedy that.

Tracking down a good RGB CRT monitor feels like a way bigger job than I'm willing to take on. I would have to order one from eBay or somewhere, and that freaks me out. Not to mention the seeming degree in rocket science I would need to administer such a monitor through my PC. Makes my head hurt thinking about it.

This is just one man's opinion, but from all the projects I have seen over the years, I have never seen anything that looks fun to play a FPS on. I guess I am a bit of a traditionalist when it comes to arcade cabs, so that sways my opinion, but I think a lot of people here prefer to separate their cab gaming from their modern gaming. You can bring an excellent FPS gaming experience on a living room TV, or a nice PC rig and there just seems to be no real world advantage to having it in a cabinet. And in the sense of a machine being for social gatherings, you can go to anybody's house and hit up some splitscreen or online action. Making a cabinet is an attraction for your house, because you can offer an experience that others can't even with a PS4 or a $2000 gaming PC.

Another part of it is the controls. I have never seen any arcade cabinet where keyboard and mouse is pleasing to use or even looks like it belongs. Most setups, keyboards are there for an admin function. If a keyboard tray isn't hidden, a cabinet tends to turn a cab into more of a glorified computer stand. That being said, I am brewing an idea in my head for a C64 bartop that would feature a keyboard control panel, so if make something that looks like it belongs on a cab, I'd love to see it. 

Most veterans here are pretty selective about the games they feature on their cab(s), feature heavy cabinets tend to be cumbersome.

And yeah, standing is a factor for me, I do like to be comfortable. Standing might not be a bother, but one thing to also consider is other comfort factors. At a desk, you have a place for a drink, can multitask with other things like email, and even do other task such during downtimes like when a game is loading or waiting for an online match. An arcade cabinet is very much for "in the zone" gameplay, and playing something that requires wait times might get irritating.

Like I said, that is just my opinion. You might feel completely different about it and that is fine. 

[yotsuya]

...Verbal awesomeness...

Well said! I feel the same way, and it's all based on experience.

[opt2not]

blah blah blah, completely all subjective points...

All I saw was "standing desk" and I checked out of the last few posts. 

[zebidia]

blah blah blah, completely all subjective points...

All I saw was "standing desk" and I checked out of the last few posts. 

LOL!

Your subjective opinion of standup desks is very childish. Sorry, I didn't mean to make you cry.

[opt2not]

I cried from laughter. 

But seriously, how does your need to play FPS' standing up relate to the "Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today", hmmmm?

[yotsuya]

Canadian-on-Canadian fighting is never pretty. 

[bulbousbeard]

I think a lot of people build cabinets backwards. They put together a cabinet, and then they think about the games they want to play later.

Cabinets are designed for games. Games aren't designed for cabinets. Think about that.

What you should do is make a list of all the games that are really important for you to be able to play. Which games do you truly like? Which games will you truly spend a lot of time playing?

Once you make that decision, you can decide what you want to do intelligently. Here's an example of the kind of reasoning I think you should be doing:

Requirement scenario #1:

* I need to be able to play Street Fighter 2: Champion Edition because it's my favorite game.
* I need joysticks that are good for fighting games.
* I don't care about medium resolution or high resolution games. Everything I want to play is standard resolution.

Cabinet #1:

* The cabinet must have six buttons per player.
* 8-way IL eurostick or Sanwa joystick
* I can use a 4:3 15khz CRT without missing out on anything.

Requirement scenario #2:

* I don't like fighting games. All my favorite games are 4 buttons or less.
* Most of my favorite games tend to be 4-way joystick games.
* I don't care about medium resolution or high resolution games. Everything I want to play is standard resolution.

Cabinet #2:

* I only need 4 buttons per player.
* 4-way joystick/leaf switch joystick possibly
* I can use a 4:3 15khz CRT without missing out on anything.

Requirement scenario #3:

* I really like Street Fighter 2 and will play that all time. I need a cabinet that has six buttons for each player.
* I really like Street Fighter IV and other high resolution games and want to be able to play those as well as SF2.
* I like to play new indie 2D games that come out on Steam like Volgarr the Viking

Cabinet #3:

* The cabinet must have six buttons per player.
* 8-way IL eurostick or Sanwa joystick
* G-Sync 16:9 LCD monitor

Requirement scenario #4:

* I spend most of my game time playing first person shooters, action/rpgs, or adventure games
* I like to play new games

Cabinet #4:

http://www.overclockersclub.com/vimages/news/news31011_8678-red_harbinger_transforms_your_desk_into_a_monster_gaming_pc.jpg

And of course you have to factor in things like what you can actually afford and your personal preferences. For example, if you're a motion clarity snob, you might prefer an aliased and blocky Street Fighter IV on a CRT over a 3840x2160 Street Fighter IV on an LCD with some motion blur.

If aliasing in newer 3D fighting games really bugs you, you might prefer the high resolution LCD over the CRT.

It really all depends on what YOU want to play and which tradeoffs you want to make.

[twistedsymphony]

I think a lot of people build cabinets backwards. They put together a cabinet, and then they think about the games they want to play later.

Cabinets are designed for games. Games aren't designed for cabinets. Think about that.

Quoted for Truth. 

To me the allure of arcade machines isn't about standing up, and it isn't about being crammed shoulder to shoulder with someone else while you play. If you wanted that you might as well just throw an X-Arcade stick on top of your standing desk and call it a day.

To me arcades machines are about having a self-contained unit where every aspect of that machine was chosen as the best option to play THAT one particular game. When they developed the cabinet they picked the most appropriate hardware, the most appropriate monitor, the most appropriate button layout and cabinet proportions, display angle, and then decorated the entire machine for that game specifically. An arcade machine is like a playable shrine solely dedicated to it's game.

MAME loses that "100% dedicated" aspect the same way a multi-cab (like an MVS) or a conversion cab does, but if you stick to a singular configuration and then only load it up with games that are designed for that configuration then once you're playing the game then the actual gaming experience of playing on an original dedicated cabinet is retained.

to this end i have 2 MAME cabs and I've been building parts to put together a 3rd

One is the Fix it Felix cab I posted earlier. it only has about 120 games on it. I wanted a "curated" list of games that fit perfectly with that style cabinet. There's no fluff or scrolling through dozens of crap games that no one cares about to get to the stuff they want to play. but most importantly every game on there is designed to be played on a vertical monitor with a stick and 2 buttons. I've seen people try to cram 2 joysticks and 6-buttons per player on those old Nintendo cabs but it just ruins the playability of them.


My second cab is a Kraylix cab, it's got 2 players and  8-buttons per player, I've got several thousand games on there. but none of them are deigned for a track-ball or analog stick, or pointing device, because that doesn't fit with the control layout that the cabinet has.




The third machine I'm putting together will be a Racing MAME... again a cabinet that is deigned just for driving and racing games and will only play driving and racing games. In the future I'd like to build a dedicated light-gun cab and a Virtual Pin. These capture the essence of the dedicated cabinet that the games were originally designed for while not diminishing the experience being being a glorified gaming.

Back to the point of the cabinet following the games and not the other way around. My fix it felix cab will never be a good setup for playing Golden Tee, and the Kraylix cab will never be an optimal setup for playing Robotron, because trying to make those machines work like that would be a very far cry from the original gaming experience I'm trying to emulate, and in the process I'll also be diminishing the gaming experience of all of the other games on those cab by having remanence of unused and poorly positioned controls strewn about. Choosing whether to go with a CRT or LCD follows this as well. Build the cab around the game you wan to play, then choose the display technology that fits best with your chosen game and cab design. One isn't better than the other, but one is always more appropriate than the other for your target games.

[Calamity]

For example, if you're a motion clarity snob

 

That one was good. Motion clarity has been the norm since the 50's. It's only since the past decade that humanity has been deprived from it. So I'd rather speak of don't-care-about-blur snobs.

(anyway I agree with your post).

[yotsuya]

I think a lot of people build cabinets backwards. They put together a cabinet, and then they think about the games they want to play later.

Cabinets are designed for games. Games aren't designed for cabinets. Think about that.

What you should do is make a list of all the games that are really important for you to be able to play. Which games do you truly like? Which games will you truly spend a lot of time playing?

Once you make that decision, you can decide what you want to do intelligently....

It really all depends on what YOU want to play and which tradeoffs you want to make.

I know you and I have disagreed with a lot of things in the past, but I think you are 100% correct with this statement. 

And to take it a step further, I think the cabinets that have issues or aren't well-received are the ones where the creators don't take the time to consider the tradeoffs (or are unwilling to) and instead want to try and play everything under the sun. That results in overcrowded control panels, wasted controls, and the like.

And before I come off as some ---uvula--- who just likes to criticize frankenpanels, remember, I made the same mistakes my first time around. Like most of us who provide opinions and feedback, the criticisms and suggestions come from experience. I have a 36 in wide empty control panel rotting in the wood pile in my backyard. I'm proud of it from the standpoint that it was truly the first thing I ever built correctly in this hobby, but I also know now that it was a mistake I'll never make again.

[Vigo]

Cabinets are designed for games. Games aren't designed for cabinets. Think about that.

I did think about that, and the more I think about it the more I disagree with it. Not that I disagree with you about cabinet planning, but I have to add a caveat that planning isn't always gonna guide you to an intelligent outcome.

In almost every case, a PC game has no set controls and a console game has predetermined controls. Arcade machines, however, are the unique situation where the same team that designs the game also designs the controls, and the more I read about these games, the more I hear that controls are well thought out even before the game is worked out. Experimenting in the early years especially was equally a hardware thing. Spinners, trackballs, 49-way joysticks, these things were not invented to fit a game created. Games were designed around these concepts. Modern cabinets, like DDR, are 90% about the hardware, because people can get any software experience they want at home. Environmental cabs, racing cabinets, these were all "experiences" that game makers wanted to create and build a game around.

So how does that change things?

The big thing that means is that just because you like a game and it is on your "Cabinet game" list, you might find yourself sorely disappointed that the cabinet doesn't deliver the experience  that you were hoping for. Your controls might be fine, the monitor might be the perfect choice, but that means nothing if you can still gain a better experience playing at your desk or couch. 

I have been there. I was naive on my first build. I was into 2d console RPG's and thought I would be playing them all the time on a cabinet. (Yeah, I was that dumb). I spend a long time planning how to make those controls work, made special buttons for save states and load states, and set up my front-end and put up pixel smoothing algorithms in the emulators to make those games shine. About 10 minutes in to playing my first RPG on an arcade cabinet, and I realized my stupidity. Luckily, all it cost me was my first control panel and hours of emulator and front end setup.

If you are gonna build an arcade cabinet, you have to realize it caters best to arcade games. And the controls you select is a trade-off of what kind of arcade games will work well. If you think you are gonna be PC gaming on your cabinet, just be prepared to realize that even with the right monitor for the game and well thought out controls, it still might not be the right setting to spark that magical experience.

[twistedsymphony]

Cabinets are designed for games. Games aren't designed for cabinets. Think about that.

I did think about that, and the more I think about it the more I disagree with it. Not that I disagree with you about cabinet planning, but I have to add a caveat that planning isn't always gonna guide you to an intelligent outcome.

....I spend a long time planning how to make those controls work...

You disagreed with him and then you told a story that reinforced his point. What I took away from it was that you spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to shoe-horn the game's design to work with stereo-typical arcade style controls.... that's not designing the cabinet around the game, that's trying to make the game work in a traditional cabinet.

There are lots and lots of arcades in Japan for RPGs and FPSs and other types of games that we here in the west would consider to be not-traditional arcade experiences. But those games in Japan don't use joysticks and buttons, they use things like touch-screens or special mouse style controllers. Here's an example of an control panel from an FPS game in Japan called "Border Break":



Also notice that the machine is design to be sat-at. Because games like RPGs or FPSs aren't the kinds of games that you stand while playing, you sit because you're probably going to be at the machine for a while and those types of controls are best suited for a seated posture.

Japan even has a half-life 2 arcade game, again with it's own unique controls suited for the game and designed to be sat at while playing:


here's a Square Enix Arcade RPG from Japan called "Lord of Vermillion", notice it's got platform where players can place down cards to manage the inventory and equipped items while the screen shows the action, then it has buttons to the sides that players use to select their actions. and again... players are seated.


The problem you ran into is that you were playing a game that was designed around a (presumably) console or PC controls and then tried to make it work with arcade style controls, that's trying to make the game fit your idea of a cabinet, not the other way around.

Experimenting in the early years especially was equally a hardware thing. Spinners, trackballs, 49-way joysticks, these things were not invented to fit a game created. Games were designed around these concepts.

You don't develop a completely new language every time you write a book either. Spinners, track balls, multi-direcitonal joystics etc. are all just the "raw materials" that are are available to construct your gaming vision. I don't doubt that some ideas over the years were thrown out because there wan't the right control mechanism to make it work but we're not talking about game development we're talking about building controls to suite the games as they were designed. Pac man doesn't make sense with a spinner, but Tempest doesn't make sense with a joystick either. but whether or not those controls were part of the original vision of the devleopers that's what those games were ultimately designed to use.

You can also look at things like the lunar lander control panel which had an analog lever, or 720 which used a non-centering joystick, or other games that used existing controls in unique ways like tron that utilized a spinner for one hand and a trigger stick for the other.

If you want to play SNES games in arcade form but a joystick doesn't feel right then maybe you should design your control panel the same way Nintendo designed theirs:

[Vigo]

TS, I think you missed what I was saying. First, I wasn't disagreeing with anything other than 1 sentence. Second, inadequate controls or cabinet style/features have nothing to do what I was complaining about with arcade experience, I was talking about inadequate games. I've had sit down candy cabs and custom controls for console games, but something like an RPG simply does not improve in experience on even a tailor made cabinet. My point is just because you like a game type and think you would play it on you cab, you may find the reality to be very different.

[opt2not]

Just wanted to jump back in here and say that my attempts at keeping this topic on track have been thoroughly pummeled. 
But please, carry on.

[yotsuya]

TS, I think you missed what I was saying. First, I wasn't disagreeing with anything other than 1 sentence. Second, inadequate controls or cabinet style/features have nothing to do what I was complaining about with arcade experience, I was talking about inadequate games. I've had sit down candy cabs and custom controls for console games, but something like an RPG simply does not improve in experience on even a tailor made cabinet. My point is just because you like a game type and think you would play it on you cab, you may find the reality to be very different.

I completely agree with this. As I've stated before, when I built my first cab in 2010, I was jacked to be able to play Arcade, Atari 2600, NES, SNES, and Genesis games on it. The arcade stuff kicked ass.... then I tried playing Starfox on the SNES.... Ugh... I was like...



It was the same with all the other console games.

Within a month, everything but Arcade games was removed, and I've never looked back.

[Vigo]

The arcade stuff kicked ass.... then I tried playing Starfox on the SNES.... Ugh... I was like...

Exactly 

[cools]

Just picked up a second Toshiba PF trisync, so I have spare working high quality CRTs for both my cabs.

Because LCDs are not an option.

[bulbousbeard]

Just picked up a second Toshiba PF trisync, so I have spare working high quality CRTs for both my cabs.

Because LCDs are not an option.

You mean the best option?

[cools]

Nope. My cabinets are CRT cabs, and there's no chance in the world I'd swap these for LCDs if the screens die.

[opt2not]

Nope. My cabinets are CRT cabs, and there's no chance in the world I'd swap these for LCDs if the screens die.

[twistedsymphony]

TS, I think you missed what I was saying. First, I wasn't disagreeing with anything other than 1 sentence. Second, inadequate controls or cabinet style/features have nothing to do what I was complaining about with arcade experience, I was talking about inadequate games. I've had sit down candy cabs and custom controls for console games, but something like an RPG simply does not improve in experience on even a tailor made cabinet. My point is just because you like a game type and think you would play it on you cab, you may find the reality to be very different.

I understand what you're saying but I still think you're missing the point of this whole discussion. Any of those games with a custom tailored control panel would work well. but Not every game plays well with a joystick and a 6-button layout... it'd be impossible to play say Grand Theft Auto with that setup, but you could probably map it to a controller setup like the one used for Border Break or the Half Life 2 arcade and have a really great cab experience with that game. Similarly a joystick seems really unnatural for game like Final Fantasy VII but if you layed out say 24mm buttons for directional movement (similar to a hit box) and then have custom right hand button layout for ok and cancel and then the menu buttons off to the side it would make navigating the in-game menus a lot more natural and probably allow you to execute commands even faster and more fluid than a game pad.

I do believe you could build a cab for any game and Taylor the experience to just that game and have it improve over what you'd get with a game pad or just a keyboard and mouse. But you ONLY get that if you're using the right type of controls for your chosen game and have laid them in out a way that fits with the way that game is played. Trying to make a universal control panel that can play everything will always fall short and end up being detrimental to the experience of just about every game you play.

Nope. My cabinets are CRT cabs, and there's no chance in the world I'd swap these for LCDs if the screens die.

Quoted for truth.

[Vigo]

In many cases, nope. It is simply feeling like a tool playing some of these games on a cabinet. The atmosphere ain't right. It reminds me of my junior high school dances, where they would play slow dance songs, but refuse to turn down the lights. 

An arcade cab is an isolation piece. It detaches you from the world around you and you are able to submerse yourself into the pulse of the game directly.  Arcade games are designed specifically for this atmosphere. A good game is gonna be very brief. Fast paced. Intense. Often aggravating. Requires alertness. One false move, and everything is over. No respawn, no save slots, no pause. The challenge makes it great.

It is a stark contrast to what I consider couch gaming. Gaming for a long haul. Adventure games, Puzzle solving games, FPS's, RPG's, games with load times and those games with hours of unnecessary cutscenes all fit under this category. It is leisure gaming. I can relax, allow my brain to work on a deeper level of critical thinking and calculated decisions. I can enjoy the atmosphere around me, eat, drink and take on games the same way I take on a movie. I tend to play games I can win at the couch, see them through after hours of gameplay.

With couch gaming, I can play a game at the couch while my kids are playing with their toys on the floor. It is significant that I can still interact with them and be with them and give them a large portion of my attention. Something I couldn't do if I was playing Final Fantasy on an arcade machine, staring into a cabinet against the wall for 5 hours straight. At the same time, if my kids get on my nerves, I can shut everything out for a little while by playing some arcade games and free myself from outside distractions.

[twistedsymphony]

Arcade games are designed specifically for this atmosphere. A good game is gonna be very brief. Fast paced. Intense. Often aggravating. Requires alertness. One false move, and everything is over. No respawn, no save slots, no pause. The challenge makes it great.

I understand what you're saying but you're still trying to apply stereo typical arcade style cabinet design to console games and I agree it doesn't work, it's a different world.... but that doesn't' mean that you couldn't design a cabinet that fits well with the leisurely "long-play" gameplay style of most consoles games. There are plenty of arcades in Japan that fit with this style, they've got comfy chair that lean back and they're designed so that players can plan themselves at the machine a for hours while they play. The most common of these that you see are the network-terminal games like Derby games... you do some menu management at a slow pace then you sit back and watch the virtual racing for a while before tweaking your setup and repeating the process... it's a long-haul leisurely style arcade game... these just aren't the type of games that were ever marketed to arcades outside of Japan... but that doesn't mean it's impossible to design an arcade cabinet that fits with that style of play.

[yotsuya]

... but that doesn't mean it's impossible to design an arcade cabinet that fits with that style of play.

While I agree pretty much with you and Vigo's points, I think what you describe here is more a piece of custom gaming furniture than a traditional arcade cabinet. Semantics, maybe, but that's how I see it.

[Vigo]

  Right, I am completely talking on a practical sense, giving my perspective as advice for would-be BOYAC'ers. I am not disagreeing with your point that it can be done, and I have no doubt those games you pointed out are fun, but as far as taking a home arcade machine and making it fun for all sorts of RPG's or console games, you are gonna be hard pressed to top the experience being had at a couch. Thing is, all my friends have couches and TVs, so what can I offer at my house that my friends can't? Cabinets and arcade games get a lot of love. I made a console emulator box to play those games on my TV, and I won't look back, because I can't reasonably get that level of all around experience at a cabinet.

And I think any game that is meant to spend progressive long-haul play in the arcade is still a niche item. Die and repeat games is still where it is at at the arcades. I have been to a number of arcades in east Asia, and by far, any game that I noticed that gets play is the fast paced, trigger happy quick action gaming. Fighters, DDResque games and gimmicky stuff with a unique premise. Anything flashy and high-octane seems to get all the attention. I personally love the water sensing LCD stuff. I've also played one of those Japanese Derby games. All the seats were empty, and for a reason. Yawn City. Of course, I couldn't quite read the menus, and ended doing nothing but grooming my horse over and over again for 5 minutes before getting frustrated and walking away.

[twistedsymphony]

Right, and that goes back to the original sentiment that started this whole discussion:
A cabinet should be designed for the game, you shouldn't try to fit a game to an existing cabinet.

[Vigo]

  But that doesn't negate my comment that many arcade games have been designed around cab features and designed exclusively for a cabinet experience, and also that some non-arcade games generally do not fit the arcade machine experience at all.

[twistedsymphony]

But that doesn't negate my comment that many arcade games have been designed around cab features and designed exclusively for a cabinet experience...

We're not talking about designing new games, we're talking about designing new cabinets for existing games... Games that were designed for arcade cabinets are easy to build a cabinet for because you just build what the original game was designed to use

...and also that some non-arcade games generally do not fit the arcade machine experience at all.

My point is this: You can can build an ideal cabinet for ANY game and have it be a superior experience than couch gaming, or computer desk gaming, this cabinet might only be suited for THAT ONE game and no other game, it might be completely impractical, but it can be done. Further, trying to make a particular game work on a generic cabinet, (especially one that would require a really weird, non-typical dedicated cabinet in order to improve on the couch/desk experience) is a waste of time because it just doesn't fit with a generic cabinet design. that doesn't mean it can't be done it just means it's impractical.

Hence, if you want a great cabinet for a SPECIFIC game (not a GENRE of game, a GAME) you can do that but you will never be able to build a cabinet that works well for ALL games... or even MOST games... or even an entire GENRE of games because of how much variety there is among games and their design.

I think we're both in agreement that there are SOME games that work well with a stereotypical arcade cabinet, but there are others that don't.... Where we disagree is that I believe that you could take any of those non-typical games and design a custom cabinet that works well for that game and actually improves the experience over what you'd get with a couch. It might only work with that one game, it might not look anything like what you'd picture when you picture an arcade cabinet and it might be an enormous impractical waste of time and money but it doesn't mean that it can't be done and it doesn't negate the fact that in order to have a good cabinet it needs to be designed with a SPECIFIC game in mind instead of trying to make a game work with a design that is ill-suited for it.

[Vigo]

But that doesn't negate my comment that many arcade games have been designed around cab features and designed exclusively for a cabinet experience...

We're not talking about designing new games, we're talking about designing new cabinets for existing games... Games that were designed for arcade cabinets are easy to build a cabinet for because you just build what the original game was designed to use

Yes, only that isn't always practical without owning 1:1 controls and setup, and when I made the point that arcade games are often designed to a cabinet, that is my big point. Play kick with a spinner. Mame calls it a spinner game. Makes complete sense playing with a spinner. Great control, great precision. However, Kick didn't use a traditional spinner, it used a unique 2 way roller. You might enjoy Kick with a regular spinner, but you are missing on the madness of rolling the ball back and forth trying to catch all the balloons. You can't use a trackball as well either because the rolling resistance is completely different. You lose the intended level and design of gameplay. In many instances, you do not necessarily understand the decisions that were made when programming that game, because it was specifically designed to a an exact cabinet. The difficulty of the game, the sensitivity of the controls, mechanics, inertia, physics and many precise details are all designed to fit only one dedicated cabinet.

My point is this: You can can build an ideal cabinet for ANY game and have it be a superior experience than couch gaming, or computer desk gaming, this cabinet might only be suited for THAT ONE game and no other game, it might be completely impractical, but it can be done.

OK, I'll put you to the test on this. Tell me how you would improve these game experiences using an arcade cabinet, using practical or impractical dedicated cabinet design. I like all three of these games, but as arcade machines? Yeesh....

Zak McKracken and the Alien Mindbenders (PC) - Perfectly precise with a mouse, anything less precise and direct makes it annoying trying to aim to the right point and click command.

Final Fantasy 8 (PSX) - RPG with very long load times, long drawn out battles, cut scenes and idle waiting. Perfect for a couch and a bag of chips because you are gonna be waiting around doing nothing half the time.

Aerobiz Supersonic (Genesis, SNES) - Turn based sim where you take on the role as the CEO of a airline.

 

[opt2not]

I agree with Vigo on all points.

My point is this: You can can build an ideal cabinet for ANY game and have it be a superior experience than couch gaming, or computer desk gaming, this cabinet might only be suited for THAT ONE game and no other game, it might be completely impractical, but it can be done.

Opinions are great and all, but when it veers on the side of facetious and silly, then it can do more harm than actually insightful. First you say that any game would give you a superior experience than what it was originally intended by the developers. Then you kill it by saying it's impractical...and widdle your point down to just "it can be done", as if getting it to just run on a cabinet is the be-all end-all. NO! That's contrary to the whole point of this arcade hobby. We're trying to recreate the experiences of yesteryear, for games that deliver a high difficulty, high payoff, and low introductory elements.  Most games that were not arcade games were built for comfort play -- as outlined by Vigo. 
There are select few outside of arcade games that can be translated to an arcade experience well, but definitely NOT all.

Sure, you can hook up any console or computer to a monitor, and have the inputs map to arcade buttons to play so-and-so game, but that doesn't mean you'll get a superior gaming experience.

You cannot put any game in an "ideal cabinet" (w/e the heck that means) and have it feel natural. Period.

[twistedsymphony]

OK, I'll put you to the test on this. Tell me how you would improve these game experiences using an arcade cabinet, using practical or impractical dedicated cabinet design. I like all three of these games, but as arcade machines? Yeesh....

Zak McKracken and the Alien Mindbenders (PC) - Perfectly precise with a mouse, anything less precise and direct makes it annoying trying to aim to the right point and click command.

Final Fantasy 8 (PSX) - RPG with very long load times, long drawn out battles, cut scenes and idle waiting. Perfect for a couch and a bag of chips because you are gonna be waiting around doing nothing half the time.

Aerobiz Supersonic (Genesis, SNES) - Turn based sim where you take on the role as the CEO of a airline.

I'd love to take on the task of designing a theoretical custom cabinet for some interesting games. It's actually something I've done in the past (designing custom cabinet for games that never had arcade cabinets) but I've never played any of those games and withing knowing how they play inside and out I'd be unable to come up with a design that suites them well enough to improve on their original gaming environment. Honestly I think you'd have to really love a game in order to come up with a suitable design.

... First you say that any game would give you a superior experience than what it was originally intended by the developers. Then you kill it by saying it's impractical...and widdle your point down to just "it can be done", as if getting it to just run on a cabinet is the be-all end-all. NO! That's contrary to the whole point of this arcade hobby.

This is a complete mis-representation of what I've been trying to say. at no point have I ever advocated actually trying to build a cabinet for any of these ill-fitting games. from the start I've been attempting to encourage people to not play these games on their arcade cab by pointing out how specific, customized, and impractical the cabinet design would have to be in order to make it work well.

I stand by that given enough time and money you can build one of these cabinets but doing so would be a either a fools errant or a labor of love.

[yotsuya]

I stand by that given enough time and money you can build one of these cabinets but doing so would be a either a fools errant or a labor of love.

Once thing I've learned about this place...

[Vigo]

I think Opt drove the point home very well. I think your points do have merit, TS. I am reminded of one of the cabs Opt did the art for, Geometry Wars. It took a lot of brainstorming to figure out a way to do dual analogs with a separate button, and some less than practical measures to make a cabinet for that. I think a pedal was added or something along those lines. Between the unique controls and the cool look of the cabinet, I am positive it is about the most definitive incarnation of the game to play. It created an atmosphere and it was a smart game choice.

But the problem is you are letting those examples be a case in point that a good cabinet can make any game better, and that just isn't true. We are here because we want to recreate that arcade experience in our home. Not that we think every game is better when staring into a custom made box. I love Super Metroid but all the planning in the world wouldn't help me make it a better experience on a cabinet.

Now excuse me while I go watch the Addams Family.

[twistedsymphony]

Now excuse me while I go watch the Addams Family.

mind if I join you 

[Vigo]

Now excuse me while I go watch the Addams Family.

mind if I join you 

Just finished. Darn good movie. 

[ID4]

Actually, the fact is that resolutions are going to keep increasing in games whereas CRTs are going to be stuck at 1200p forever, and it isn't a long term solution. Within 5 years, games will be designed for 3840x2160 and higher. Modern games already look awful on 90%+ of the CRTs out there today, and within a few years, they're going to look awful on any CRT you can get. The high end Sony CRT you mentioned is 16:10, too, not 16:9, and basically every modern game is designed for 16:9. Most CRTs aren't widescreen at all, and the only 16:9 CRTs I know of max out at 1080i, which really isn't good enough for modern games (who wants to play games with interlacing?). It's really just a matter of time. There will be flat panels (not even LCD) that will beat out CRTs in every measurable way. The main things holding display technology back are 1) people who can't see at 60fps and don't even notice motion blur 2) apathetic people who don't care about display quality and 3) the industry's huge investment in LCD displays which will take at least another decade to completely milk. We could have had OLED displays years ago, but most people simply don't care about quality, so they're still milking cheap LCDs.

And just to set the record straight, people aren't working on CRT simulation (HLSL and GLSL shaders) because it "equalizes performance." LCDs actually display a more precise and uniform image than CRTs. That's part of the problem, really. Those shaders are a conscious effort to DECREASE image quality. Scanlines, slightly busted convergence, bloom, and so on are actually VISUAL DEFECTS. They're not GOOD things. If you have sufficient resolution, you don't even want scanlines. People are really good at filling in visual gaps in their head. The only reason scanlines help older games is because you have dark gaps between the pixels that let humans fill in those gaps with their imagination, which actually makes the low resolution graphics seem more detailed than they really are. Shaders aren't compensating for any flaw in LCDs; they're approximating flaws in CRTS. It's simply that old games were designed with those visual defects in mind, and so that's the best way to play them.

As I said, I don't think that resolution is the key feature or the problem, the actual display technologies have very deep flaws, and seems that they think that only with more resolution, the problem is fixed.

More resolution only have sense in big screen, and a "big screen" is not really necessary ofr play games, maybe for some type of them.

Really, as you can see in this image, the 4k resoution only have sense for giant screen and your eyes glued to the screen



I ONLY play in CRT, really I was playing FPS games in LCD, but tried to play with an CRT monitor from 2004, this can handle more resolution than 1080p and never back to LCD, the colour, no blur, the lag, wiew angle, bright all are way better than LCD.

I was playing MAME in LCD too, but tried AVGA and 15 Khz CRT and never back to LCD, I play PS3 and Wii in my CRT HD 32' and it's perfect, no view angle or scaling problems, and 32 is more than enough to play.

Some CRTs was using more resolution that 1080p before that all FULLHD hype, I have my LCD and my CRT hooked to the same GFX card, and you can check the evidence in perfomance, no doubt about this.

I know that is true that visual quality is not the goal of the industry, for that reason LCD is the kind.

All that you say about scanlines are true, but you forget that all old CRTs was desinged with then curent standar, 576i. Sure that if you today desing CRT for the today standars, they will perfomance way better than LCD, but seems the problem is not the visual quality, the problem is if you can do it more thin than paper sheet

[bulbousbeard]

Actually, the fact is that resolutions are going to keep increasing in games whereas CRTs are going to be stuck at 1200p forever, and it isn't a long term solution. Within 5 years, games will be designed for 3840x2160 and higher. Modern games already look awful on 90%+ of the CRTs out there today, and within a few years, they're going to look awful on any CRT you can get. The high end Sony CRT you mentioned is 16:10, too, not 16:9, and basically every modern game is designed for 16:9. Most CRTs aren't widescreen at all, and the only 16:9 CRTs I know of max out at 1080i, which really isn't good enough for modern games (who wants to play games with interlacing?). It's really just a matter of time. There will be flat panels (not even LCD) that will beat out CRTs in every measurable way. The main things holding display technology back are 1) people who can't see at 60fps and don't even notice motion blur 2) apathetic people who don't care about display quality and 3) the industry's huge investment in LCD displays which will take at least another decade to completely milk. We could have had OLED displays years ago, but most people simply don't care about quality, so they're still milking cheap LCDs.

And just to set the record straight, people aren't working on CRT simulation (HLSL and GLSL shaders) because it "equalizes performance." LCDs actually display a more precise and uniform image than CRTs. That's part of the problem, really. Those shaders are a conscious effort to DECREASE image quality. Scanlines, slightly busted convergence, bloom, and so on are actually VISUAL DEFECTS. They're not GOOD things. If you have sufficient resolution, you don't even want scanlines. People are really good at filling in visual gaps in their head. The only reason scanlines help older games is because you have dark gaps between the pixels that let humans fill in those gaps with their imagination, which actually makes the low resolution graphics seem more detailed than they really are. Shaders aren't compensating for any flaw in LCDs; they're approximating flaws in CRTS. It's simply that old games were designed with those visual defects in mind, and so that's the best way to play them.

As I said, I don't think that resolution is the key feature or the problem, the actual display technologies have very deep flaws, and seems that they think that only with more resolution, the problem is fixed.

More resolution only have sense in big screen, and a "big screen" is not really necessary ofr play games, maybe for some type of them.

Really, as you can see in this image, the 4k resoution only have sense for giant screen and your eyes glued to the screen



I ONLY play in CRT, really I was playing FPS games in LCD, but tried to play with an CRT monitor from 2004, this can handle more resolution than 1080p and never back to LCD, the colour, no blur, the lag, wiew angle, bright all are way better than LCD.

I was playing MAME in LCD too, but tried AVGA and 15 Khz CRT and never back to LCD, I play PS3 and Wii in my CRT HD 32' and it's perfect, no view angle or scaling problems, and 32 is more than enough to play.

Some CRTs was using more resolution that 1080p before that all FULLHD hype, I have my LCD and my CRT hooked to the same GFX card, and you can check the evidence in perfomance, no doubt about this.

I know that is true that visual quality is not the goal of the industry, for that reason LCD is the kind.

All that you say about scanlines are true, but you forget that all old CRTs was desinged with then curent standar, 576i. Sure that if you today desing CRT for the today standars, they will perfomance way better than LCD, but seems the problem is not the visual quality, the problem is if you can do it more thin than paper sheet

Sorry, but you're completely wrong. Charts like that aren't even taking CRT simulation into consideration. You actually DO need 4k resolutions to make some of the CRT shaders look good. This isn't a theory or opinion. I have an arcade cabinet with a 28" 4k monitor, and the shader looks noticeably better than it does on a 1080p monitor from the same distance. That chart also isn't considering how picky some people are about aliasing in 3D games. In November 2014, 1080p is actually a pretty humble, low end resolution. At normal computer monitor distances (2 feet or less), 4k resolution is a night and day improvement.

[ID4]

Sorry, but you're completely wrong. Charts like that aren't even taking CRT simulation into consideration. You actually DO need 4k resolutions to make some of the CRT shaders look good. This isn't a theory or opinion. I have an arcade cabinet with a 28" 4k monitor, and the shader looks noticeably better than it does on a 1080p monitor from the same distance. That chart also isn't considering how picky some people are about aliasing in 3D games. In November 2014, 1080p is actually a pretty humble, low end resolution. At normal computer monitor distances (2 feet or less), 4k resolution is a night and day improvement.

Hi!

I put that chart to show how 4k is not the "revolution" that the hype is claiming, forget the previous super 3D revolution, it failed with all his hype.  I put that chart to show you that with only increasing resolution, you don't get the magic solution to LCD problem. I didn't showed that chart to take the CRT emulation into consideration.

I Know that display industry leave behind the CRT technology, but I spoked with people, and know too that some revelant people think that the industry has done bad move, but they will never recognize it.

Anyway, I'm agreed with you that 4K in computer monitor can be a good thing, as you says in can be used to emulate better the CRTs using shaders, althrought not like real CRT. It's only the pixel size and he same technology.

I know too that the process to manufacture 4k TVs is the *SAME* that normal LCDs, not new technology or revolution here. You can build 90' 4K TVs using the same panel that you use to build four 45' 1080p TVs, only need to skip the cutting panel stage.

[S_Akuma]

Hello,
I sent you a PM but I think that if I reply here it will help other Asus ROG Swift users since everyone will be able to see this information.  SDLMAME with the Lottes shader works great with the Asus ROG Swift.  Without lottes shader the MAME games look bad,, really bad.  Is there anything that I should change on the mame.ini to reflect the Asus ROG Swift?. I copy the xxx.ini that you provided to mame.ini from the link.  You mentioned that you had the 4k, gsync 60hz not sure if your xxx.ini has something specifically for your monitor and not the Aus ROG Swift. 

I would like to know if you can please provide a link to the "SDLMAME build for Windows" that you made so I and other users could try it out. Also which forntend would you recommend to use with SDLMAME. 

thanks you very much for your input you really helped me out

S_AKUMA

I totally agree that LCDs are stop gap. I'm not entirely satisfied with motion blur and crappy backlights, either. I can't wait for good OLED screens. Having said that, though, I just want to stress two things:

1. All technology is a stop gap solution. It's always going to get better.

2. The new G-Sync panels are very, very good. They're the first LCD screens that I feel comfortable recommending for arcade cabinet use.

I just got this monitor today:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824009658&cm_re=acer_gsync-_-24-009-658-_-Product

The Acer and the Asus ROG Swift are both excellent in different ways. The Acer is only 60hz, so it can't run games that run at 60.60hz and so on at full speed, so that's its downfall for arcade games. 4k, though, looks absolutely amazing in SDLMAME with the Lottes shader. They're both 1ms response time panels, and the motion blur is _not bad_. I'm incredibly picky when it comes to motion blur, and they're not as good as a CRT in this regard, but they are good enough to the point where even an arcade enthusiast would find it acceptable.

If you want to try out the Lottes shader, extract this into your SDLMAME folder and see the ume.ini file for configuration:
https://sites.google.com/site/bigbluefrontend/lottesshader.zip?attredirects=0&d=1

I'd offer a link to my SDLMAME build for Windows, but I remove the nag screens, and MAMEdev requested that I not distribute that version, so you can build or download SDLMAME yourself elsewhere I guess.

The Lottes shader is a HUGE step forward for CRT simulation, because it's the first one that has a shadowmask effect that doesn't look like butt. The other great thing about it is that it doesn't even require super high resolutions to look good (even though it looks mindblowing at 4k). Here are a couple of other screenshots I took of it awhile ago (it actually looks better with the settings in the archive I linked):

https://436e85e1-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/bigbluefrontend/mkscreenshot.png
https://436e85e1-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/bigbluefrontend/knightsscreenshot.png

I'll see if I can post some 4k screenshots at some point.