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Author Topic: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?  (Read 44908 times)

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Monkee

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Hi and sorry for feeding the troll once more but I'd really like to understand and be able to explain the real advantages of using GM with a CRT over using Mame+HLSL on a low-lag LCD nowadays.

I mean, no doubt if you have the chance to use a cabinet then there is no reason not to do it.
But when I show my GM box on my CRTs to some friends who plays next-gen games on low-lag LCDs and they hear me saying that they should get a CRT if they want to play Mame games too, I sometimes have some trouble to know if (and why) I'm right when you think about the fact that LCDs are cheap and big, have a good image quality, are easily tate-able and can "virtually" play all generations of games on one screen (and only one computer then because you don't need a specific 15khz build).

It seems to me that the main problems of LCDs are the lag, the lack of scanlines (the low resolution "problem" being fixed by using emulators at the screen's resolution reference, it seems) and the fixed frequency, no?
But then when you have a super low-lag screen and HLSL for the scanline, there is just one problem left: the fixed frequency. And I don't know if you really see (for an average player) a difference between a game played at 58Hz or 60Hz (does it break the emulation?)?

I really don't want to bring back old trolls but I'd also really like to know where we are today in terms of emulation on LCDs.
I know that here we are on a "CRT-forum" but I guess that's why I'd like to have your opinion as CRT users on it.

Thanks in advance.
Monkee

machyavel

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Hi, IMO HLSL on LCD may look fine but in no way can hold comparison against a CRT. And I like accurate frequencies too.

Monkee

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Thanks Machyavel but what is the impact of non-accurate frequencies on the gameplay/emulation?

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But then when you have a super low-lag screen and HLSL for the scanline, there is just one problem left: the fixed frequency. And I don't know if you really see (for an average player) a difference between a game played at 58Hz or 60Hz (does it break the emulation?)?

58Hz vs 60Hz is very obvious when playing, the sound pitch is the first thing you notice as wrong, but the gameplay is affected too by the speed increase. Just try donpachi with GroovyMAME and the "lcd" preset on a LCD screen.

Super low-lag LCDs still have more lag than a CRT. And remind the problem is not only the lag but the response time. However, the worst problem with LCDs, in the context of emulation, is motion blur. This is IMHO the most distracting single problem that keeps reminding you are not using the proper screen.

Motion blur has been successfully solved by the Lightboost technology, running at 120 Hz with black frame insertion.

The fixed frequency issue has been solved (not so successfully yet) by the G-sync technology.

The problem is, Lightboost and G-sync are mutually exclusive  ;)

Then you have color performance and view angle. The technology that performs better on this regard (IPS), nearly as good as CRTs, has the worse motion blur. The other technology available (TN) has less motion blur but colors and view angle are worse.

So, the situation in March 2014 is that you can't buy an specific LCD that fully matches the performance of a humble 20-year-old CRT in all relevant areas.

I've nothing against LCDs for desktop tasks, I've been using them for more than a decade.

Maybe the engineers that created flat screens did it only because they could and it was possible at the time, but didn't know much about the fundamentals of animation and motion picture. The engineers who invented cinema and television in the 19th-20th century were the ones that really understood how animation works inside the human eye, but they were dead by then.

This is the rational part, the facts. Evantually all these issues will be solved, but we'll still prefer CRTs, this would be the emotional part. CRTs feel like real things, LCDs feel like fake screens. A CRT is a high voltage device with an electron gun ruled by electromagnets and a thick glass screen. On the other hand LCDs feel like plastic, just a moving slide with a kitchen fluorescent tube behind.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 06:13:59 pm by Calamity »
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
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CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Monkee

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Thanks a lot Calamity, that's exactly the type of objective answer I was searching for. Now I have a better understanding of what's better on CRT and what to wait for if one day I have to go for a LCD.

Side question: How does a tri-tubes projector looks like with our 15khz games?
That seems to be an handsome possibility where you can have a big size, a pretty image, no-lag, no motion blur, variable frequencies and resolutions (including high ones for movies or new games) if I'm not mistaken!

bulbousbeard

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Lightboost/ULMB sucks. Software black frame insertion actually looks better. Lightboost and ULMB introduce some nasty artifacts/aliasing. It just doesn't look good.

With software black frame insertion, the images are perfectly stable.

It's a problem that could be solved in software, but nobody's done it yet.

A G-Sync monitor with black frame insertion could be great, but nobody's implementing it.

Just so Calamity knows, GroovyMAME's current implementation of black frame insertion is faulty because it skips frames. It hitches every few seconds.

What we really need is to modify MAME to truly output double the frames of whatever that game's refresh rate is with software black frame insertion on a G-Sync monitor and run the game at twice its native refresh rate.

Monkee

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In fact if I understand you well, even for modern gaming, flat screens are not that good compared to 31khz PC CRT screens (with high resolution), right?

bulbousbeard

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No. CRTs are not good for modern gaming.

Modern games are designed to run at 1080p or better. Television CRTs never made it past 720p/1080i. There are a handful of 1200p computer CRTs, but they're really not big enough to do anything interesting. They maxed out at 24".

You wouldn't want to run games interlaced, and a 31khz monitor (480p) isn't remotely high enough resolution to drive a modern game.

If you played modern games at 480p, text and UIs would be microscopic.

Resolution is one of the areas where CRTs are flat out inferior to LCDs, plasmas, etc.

I'm not sure if anyone ever made a CRT greater than 1920x1200, and there are 3840x2160 LCDs already.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 09:20:05 pm by bulbousbeard »

ID4

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I think that you are really wrong. CRT is way best for gaming because:

- No native resolution, so no input lag.
- NO MOTION BLUR (RETINA RETENTION).
- Smooth animation.
- No view angle issues.
- No back light, so true blacks for oscure games.

I donīt think that the resolution and the display size is the KEY FEATURE for gaming, itīs the "candy" for markting and mass market.

The INPUT LAG and the MOTION BLUR is the KEY FEATURES for gaming.

Text and UIs could be displayed in CRT as good as LCD, it depends on the construction of the CRT and the specifications (dot pitch, focus, screen size, etc ...).

I have CRT that have greater resolution than 1920x1200 and sure you can build CRT with more, but 4k ONLY have sense for 100' screens or greater, and I donīt think that you need 100' for playing.

If the LCD was better for playing than the CRT, would not exist the efforts that are being made ​​to equalize the LCD to CRT performance (scanning backlight, Gsync, backlight strobe, HLSL, scanlines generators, Prysm LPD, Black Frame, etc)

It is unacceptable that a large screen, have issues with viewing angles.

Take at look at http://www.blurbusters.com/

I use 32' wide screen CRT 1080i for modern gaming and it's really better than LCD, I have no input lag, perfect view angles, no black scenes problems and I see tiny text perfectly, even the sound is better. I have compared it hand to hand with friend 32' and my 40' Philips LED and it's is better.

Even HD television channels are clearer and sharper on a CRT 29 ' SD than in my FullHD LED Philips 40', ok this last one have more details, but the colours, the motion and the image are better and more natural in the CRT.

Sorry, but the facts are the facts.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 06:28:07 am by ID4 »

Monkee

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Thanks for your argumentation ID4, you seems really passionate about it and I have to admit that I love it!  ;D

I'd love to get a 1080i CRT beast too. Which brand/model do you recommend?

P.S.: I didn't know until today about Prysm LPD, that seems quite nice on the paper!

P.S.S.: you blog seems to be really interesting but I have some troubles with my Spanish level :( , is there any english version available?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 08:41:40 am by Monkee »

ID4

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I have two WS32Z419T calibrated to death and I admit that this sets have serious Geometry issues. There are best set, as the Sony Wega HD that seems the best CRT HD (KD-34XBR960).

The Profesional Trinitrons that work form 240p to 1080i without scaling are top quality too.

Take a look at:

http://www.tested.com/tech/gaming/456719-best-crt-retro-games/

I use for computer work and programing LCD 5:4 21' , but for gaming and gfx desing I use an Lacie 19 electron blue (Trinitron tube).

Modern gamers kill for the CRT Sony Fw900 22' wide monitor, seems that is TRLUY AMAZING for modern gaming.

The true CRT succesor is the FED spindt, a really "slim CRT" that altrough it is a fixed display, It can work with multiple resolutions without scaling, and show interlaced images as is.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2138644&goto=nextnewest

This technology was brought by AU Optronics, which is a Chinese manufacturer of LCD panels, I guess that this promising technology will not be marketed until manufactures takes all the commercial juice to LCD and OLED, a decade at least.

About the blog, sorry not english version, you can use google to translate it, or ask me any question. The blog was build only to distribute ArcadeMAME, but sometimes I write things :)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 09:03:35 am by ID4 »

Monkee

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Thanks a lot ID4, great infos you're bringing here!  ;)

Sadly it seems that you cannot find any Sony Wega HD in Europe. :(
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 09:17:11 am by Monkee »

ID4

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Thank you for readme! I use my HD CRT for SD and HD Television, DVDs , bluerays, MKVs, Wii, PS2, XBOX360 and more. It`s really good :)

Thanks to LCD fever, This is the moment to pick good CRTs, look for flat (not slim) CRTs and Sony profesional monitors.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 09:31:24 am by ID4 »

bulbousbeard

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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2014, 10:14:58 am »
I think that you are really wrong. CRT is way best for gaming because:

- No native resolution, so no input lag.
- NO MOTION BLUR (RETINA RETENTION).
- Smooth animation.
- No view angle issues.
- No back light, so true blacks for oscure games.

I donīt think that the resolution and the display size is the KEY FEATURE for gaming, itīs the "candy" for markting and mass market.

The INPUT LAG and the MOTION BLUR is the KEY FEATURES for gaming.

Text and UIs could be displayed in CRT as good as LCD, it depends on the construction of the CRT and the specifications (dot pitch, focus, screen size, etc ...).

I have CRT that have greater resolution than 1920x1200 and sure you can build CRT with more, but 4k ONLY have sense for 100' screens or greater, and I donīt think that you need 100' for playing.

If the LCD was better for playing than the CRT, would not exist the efforts that are being made ​​to equalize the LCD to CRT performance (scanning backlight, Gsync, backlight strobe, HLSL, scanlines generators, Prysm LPD, Black Frame, etc)

It is unacceptable that a large screen, have issues with viewing angles.

Take at look at http://www.blurbusters.com/

I use 32' wide screen CRT 1080i for modern gaming and it's really better than LCD, I have no input lag, perfect view angles, no black scenes problems and I see tiny text perfectly, even the sound is better. I have compared it hand to hand with friend 32' and my 40' Philips LED and it's is better.

Even HD television channels are clearer and sharper on a CRT 29 ' SD than in my FullHD LED Philips 40', ok this last one have more details, but the colours, the motion and the image are better and more natural in the CRT.

Sorry, but the facts are the facts.

Actually, the fact is that resolutions are going to keep increasing in games whereas CRTs are going to be stuck at 1200p forever, and it isn't a long term solution. Within 5 years, games will be designed for 3840x2160 and higher. Modern games already look awful on 90%+ of the CRTs out there today, and within a few years, they're going to look awful on any CRT you can get. The high end Sony CRT you mentioned is 16:10, too, not 16:9, and basically every modern game is designed for 16:9. Most CRTs aren't widescreen at all, and the only 16:9 CRTs I know of max out at 1080i, which really isn't good enough for modern games (who wants to play games with interlacing?). It's really just a matter of time. There will be flat panels (not even LCD) that will beat out CRTs in every measurable way. The main things holding display technology back are 1) people who can't see at 60fps and don't even notice motion blur 2) apathetic people who don't care about display quality and 3) the industry's huge investment in LCD displays which will take at least another decade to completely milk. We could have had OLED displays years ago, but most people simply don't care about quality, so they're still milking cheap LCDs.

And just to set the record straight, people aren't working on CRT simulation (HLSL and GLSL shaders) because it "equalizes performance." LCDs actually display a more precise and uniform image than CRTs. That's part of the problem, really. Those shaders are a conscious effort to DECREASE image quality. Scanlines, slightly busted convergence, bloom, and so on are actually VISUAL DEFECTS. They're not GOOD things. If you have sufficient resolution, you don't even want scanlines. People are really good at filling in visual gaps in their head. The only reason scanlines help older games is because you have dark gaps between the pixels that let humans fill in those gaps with their imagination, which actually makes the low resolution graphics seem more detailed than they really are. Shaders aren't compensating for any flaw in LCDs; they're approximating flaws in CRTS. It's simply that old games were designed with those visual defects in mind, and so that's the best way to play them.

cools

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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2014, 11:27:15 am »
Analogue lowres flaws 4 life.

ufoufo512

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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2014, 12:58:28 pm »
Side question: How does a tri-tubes projector looks like with our 15khz games?
That seems to be an handsome possibility where you can have a big size, a pretty image, no-lag, no motion blur, variable frequencies and resolutions (including high ones for movies or new games) if I'm not mistaken!

I have a Sony 1272 old CRT-projector. You are absolutely right that it has no lag or other digital artifacts and it can sync to pretty much any resolution, refresh rate and progressive / interlace, positive/negative/composite sync combination RGB signal as long as maximum bandwidth and horizontal rate are not exceeded. So it is very flexible. There are 15 KHz models only, but since CRT-projectors are basically free if you can find one, I wouldn't settle for 15KHz model.

My Sony is lower-medium grade and it can display 1080i quite well, although it looks bit soft. You can drive it with 1080p also but it is definitely too soft. The electronics can't really handle the bandwidth and also the electron beam isn't sharp enough. You can use external HDMI to RGB -converter like HD-Fury to connect modern Blu-ray player or console to it. In that case there probably is some lag included, but it hasn't bothered me with XBox360 when playing in 1080i.

There are of course many drawbacks for CRT-projectors as well: they are big and heavy, need (well) darkened room, they are prone to burn ins (much more than CRT TVs / monitors) as those smaller screens inside the projector are driven with lots of power, and finally you need to be prepared to adjust it quite a lot (mechanical focus, convergence, electron beam shape etc.) to be able to get the best picture.

Probably the best resource for these beasts is www.curtpalme.com

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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2014, 06:47:31 am »
What makes it even oh so much more painful is that we were so close to getting this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-conduction_electron-emitter_display

But.....damn.
When you find great deals on Craigslist for CRT based cabs, exuberance :laugh2: can be a bad thing!


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Andypc

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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2014, 02:30:19 pm »
No. CRTs are not good for modern gaming.

You wouldn't want to run games interlaced, and a 31khz monitor (480p) isn't remotely high enough resolution to drive a modern game.

If you played modern games at 480p, text and UIs would be microscopic.

Resolution is one of the areas where CRTs are flat out inferior to LCDs, plasmas, etc.
While the above statement might be true for certain types of game, I play lots of modern driving games in my driving cab with a Sanwa PFX tri-sync at 31khz 480p and I love it. It give a retro feel to new games, but is perfectly playable and I prefer it.  The only problem is with games that don't support 4:3 have boarders, but lots still support 4:3



At about 40 seconds you see Grid running on a PFX.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 02:34:54 pm by Andypc »

lettuce

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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2014, 06:12:12 am »
What makes it even oh so much more painful is that we were so close to getting this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-conduction_electron-emitter_display

But.....damn.

I'm telling you some company needs to do a Kickstarter for this type of tech in 4:3 screens ranging from 17" up to 28"

P.H.U.

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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2014, 08:17:05 am »
I'm telling you some company needs to do a Kickstarter for this type of tech in 4:3 screens ranging from 17" up to 28"

Sadly, it will never happen. Investment costs are just way too high to build a factory that can make these screens. Stupid lawsuit killed it for us all. And they will never make 4x3 screens ever again. All we can do is hope that OLED is everything FED/SED was supposed to be and still benefit manufacturers with higher profit margins. Otherwise, we will see LCD based displays for a painfully lonnnnnnnnnnnng time.
When you find great deals on Craigslist for CRT based cabs, exuberance :laugh2: can be a bad thing!


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mamenewb100

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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2014, 08:14:54 am »
One thing I'm not sure has been mentioned is that LCDs always have a fixed resolution. It can simulate different lower resolutions by lighting up more pixel area but the further away you get from its Native resolution, the less sharp and pixelated the image becomes. If you have an LCD TV capable of 1080P Resolution, the image quality of a 720P broadcast will look worse than a LCD TV that is only capable of 720P. CRTs on the other hand can project a perfect image at an exact resolution. Low Res images in particular look far better on a large CRT, then a fixed high res LCD.

The only real advantage of LCDs it's far more compact than CRTs. Today people are obsessed with really large Televisions of 50+ inches. A 50 inch CRT would take up most of the living room in some cases and weigh an ungodly amount because of the large Tube needed to project a large image. So LCDs are more practical in these cases.

It's also not true that CRTs cannot have a resolution as high as LCDs. The only reason you haven't seen CRTs with Resolutions as high as LCD of today is because they just aren't making CRTs anymore. There is not the same demand for them anymore and the industry is pushing slimmer technologies.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 09:35:35 am by mamenewb100 »
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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2014, 10:28:58 am »
One thing I'm not sure has been mentioned is that LCDs always have a fixed resolution. It can simulate different lower resolutions by lighting up more pixel area but the further away you get from its Native resolution, the less sharp and pixelated the image becomes. If you have an LCD TV capable of 1080P Resolution, the image quality of a 720P broadcast will look worse than a LCD TV that is only capable of 720P. CRTs on the other hand can project a perfect image at an exact resolution. Low Res images in particular look far better on a large CRT, then a fixed high res LCD.

The only real advantage of LCDs it's far more compact than CRTs. Today people are obsessed with really large Televisions of 50+ inches. A 50 inch CRT would take up most of the living room in some cases and weigh an ungodly amount because of the large Tube needed to project a large image. So LCDs are more practical in these cases.

It's also not true that CRTs cannot have a resolution as high as LCDs. The only reason you haven't seen CRTs with Resolutions as high as LCD of today is because they just aren't making CRTs anymore. There is not the same demand for them anymore and the industry is pushing slimmer technologies.

Let's look at the historical advantages of a CRT over an LCD:

1) Authentic look: scanlines, shadowmask, bloom, and so on.
2) Motion smoothness: ability to run at the original game's refresh rate without stuttering or hiccups.
3) Responsiveness: virtually no input lag.
4) Low persistence: very little motion blur.

I'd argue #1, #2, and #3 are basically solved problems at this point. See below for more details about the Timothy Lottes shader. G-Sync solved #2. G-Sync also basically solved #3, because anything you saved by using an CRT is compensated for by the fact that G-Sync has less input lag than running with V-Sync, which you need to do on a CRT. What's really awesome about G-Sync, too, is that you can actually use Calamity's frame delay patch on a G-Sync monitor without visual anomalies to get even more responsiveness out of it. #4 really isn't a solved problem yet. There's no flat panel low persistence option that doesn't reduce color quality yet, but with a 144hz LCD with a 1ms response time, motion blur on all but the fastest scrolling games (Sonic) is pretty subtle.

The more resolution you have, the BETTER it looks and the BETTER it can simulate looking like a CRT if that's what you're after. As far as static image quality goes, it's a solved problem. It's been done. Timothy Lottes's CRT shader looks better than any CRT I've ever seen in my life, and I've seen dozens of arcade and consumer monitors.

https://436e85e1-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/bigbluefrontend/sfa.png

I own a Wells Gardner and Nanao arcade monitor, and this looks better. You simply cannot get an image that pristine and uniform on a CRT. The only real advantages CRTs have at this point are on the motion blur front (they don't even really win on responsiveness anymore when compared to OLED).

Nobody said that CRTs cannot be higher resolution. I said that CRTs will never be higher resolution. The reality is that no one will ever make a 3840x2160 CRT. It'll never happen. It does matter if it's theoretically possible. It won't happen, so who cares? It's over.

LCDs have better image uniformity, and they're more reliable. When you have enough resolution, fixed resolutions are a GOOD thing, especially for a MAME cabinet, because you don't want to see ugly resolution transitions every time you launch another game. LCDs are easier on the eyes than CRTs. I know many people who can't stand the flickery appearance of a <=60hz CRT.

The real problem with a lot of these comparisons is that people are comparing Dell LCDs from 2001 that they found in a dumpster to the very best arcade CRT they've ever seen. I challenge anyone to use an ROG Swift LCD with a properly configured SDLMAME and tell me that it doesn't blow you away. A 1ms 144hz LCD doesn't really have enough motion blur to offset its advantages over a CRT. Yes, if you have some crappy 10 year old panel with 12ms response time that runs at 60hz, sure. That's awful compared to a CRT. That simply isn't what I'm talking about, though.

A lot of this really depends on what your needs/goals are. If you're going to actually buy an original PCB and have a cabinet dedicated to a single game where you can gobble your knobs and tweak your potentiometers perfectly for that one single game and want everything to be original and authentic, I can totally see using a CRT.

If you're going to build a MAME cabinet to actually, you know, play games for fun, a good modern LCD really is the better option overall. You can't even play the new Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter IV on a CRT properly. I mean, just look at those cabinets that are running Street Fighter IV on a CRT at 640x480. The laughable aliasing is far more offensive than the analog on an LCD. At least the CRT shader on an LCD actually looks good. What if you want to play a contemporary 2D game? A CRT bottlenecks what you can do in so many ways, and the few advantages it has at this point simply doesn't outweigh the advantages of a good LCD.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 10:48:09 am by bulbousbeard »

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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2014, 11:23:01 am »
Hi bulbousbeard,

I'm a bit disconnected of this subject, but last time we talked you said Lightboost was utter crap iirc, I guess that's why you say that #4 isn't solved yet. At least I remind it was not possible to combine G-sync with Lightboost, which would start to make things interesting.

Now, regarding this:

Quote
G-Sync has less input lag than running with V-Sync, which you need to do on a CRT

Are there any real tests proving this? I'm inclined to believe it, on paper it sounds good but often reality differs from theory. It would be great to have someone recording MAME on one of these monitors with a high speed camera.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 11:26:31 am by Calamity »
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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2014, 12:31:51 pm »
Where can one get that shader from? My google-fu is failing.

I wish these shaders would get rid of the blooming (visible on the press start logo), that doesn't reflect reality.

I've never seen an LCD that is as vibrant as a good CRT or plasma though. On a plasma I'll happily run simply upscaled, no filters or shaders - it looks gorgeous. Not so on an LCD.

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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2014, 12:44:50 pm »
I've never seen an LCD that is as vibrant as a good CRT or plasma though.

Definitely there's something about the phosphorus that the eye likes, and can't be photographed. (BTW atom #15 is phosphorus ;)).
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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2014, 01:36:25 pm »
One thing I'm not sure has been mentioned is that LCDs always have a fixed resolution. It can simulate different lower resolutions by lighting up more pixel area but the further away you get from its Native resolution, the less sharp and pixelated the image becomes. If you have an LCD TV capable of 1080P Resolution, the image quality of a 720P broadcast will look worse than a LCD TV that is only capable of 720P. CRTs on the other hand can project a perfect image at an exact resolution. Low Res images in particular look far better on a large CRT, then a fixed high res LCD.

The only real advantage of LCDs it's far more compact than CRTs. Today people are obsessed with really large Televisions of 50+ inches. A 50 inch CRT would take up most of the living room in some cases and weigh an ungodly amount because of the large Tube needed to project a large image. So LCDs are more practical in these cases.

It's also not true that CRTs cannot have a resolution as high as LCDs. The only reason you haven't seen CRTs with Resolutions as high as LCD of today is because they just aren't making CRTs anymore. There is not the same demand for them anymore and the industry is pushing slimmer technologies.

Let's look at the historical advantages of a CRT over an LCD:

1) Authentic look: scanlines, shadowmask, bloom, and so on.
2) Motion smoothness: ability to run at the original game's refresh rate without stuttering or hiccups.
3) Responsiveness: virtually no input lag.
4) Low persistence: very little motion blur.

I'd argue #1, #2, and #3 are basically solved problems at this point. See below for more details about the Timothy Lottes shader. G-Sync solved #2. G-Sync also basically solved #3, because anything you saved by using an CRT is compensated for by the fact that G-Sync has less input lag than running with V-Sync, which you need to do on a CRT. What's really awesome about G-Sync, too, is that you can actually use Calamity's frame delay patch on a G-Sync monitor without visual anomalies to get even more responsiveness out of it. #4 really isn't a solved problem yet. There's no flat panel low persistence option that doesn't reduce color quality yet, but with a 144hz LCD with a 1ms response time, motion blur on all but the fastest scrolling games (Sonic) is pretty subtle.

The more resolution you have, the BETTER it looks and the BETTER it can simulate looking like a CRT if that's what you're after. As far as static image quality goes, it's a solved problem. It's been done. Timothy Lottes's CRT shader looks better than any CRT I've ever seen in my life, and I've seen dozens of arcade and consumer monitors.

https://436e85e1-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/bigbluefrontend/sfa.png

I own a Wells Gardner and Nanao arcade monitor, and this looks better. You simply cannot get an image that pristine and uniform on a CRT. The only real advantages CRTs have at this point are on the motion blur front (they don't even really win on responsiveness anymore when compared to OLED).

Nobody said that CRTs cannot be higher resolution. I said that CRTs will never be higher resolution. The reality is that no one will ever make a 3840x2160 CRT. It'll never happen. It does matter if it's theoretically possible. It won't happen, so who cares? It's over.

LCDs have better image uniformity, and they're more reliable. When you have enough resolution, fixed resolutions are a GOOD thing, especially for a MAME cabinet, because you don't want to see ugly resolution transitions every time you launch another game. LCDs are easier on the eyes than CRTs. I know many people who can't stand the flickery appearance of a <=60hz CRT.

The real problem with a lot of these comparisons is that people are comparing Dell LCDs from 2001 that they found in a dumpster to the very best arcade CRT they've ever seen. I challenge anyone to use an ROG Swift LCD with a properly configured SDLMAME and tell me that it doesn't blow you away. A 1ms 144hz LCD doesn't really have enough motion blur to offset its advantages over a CRT. Yes, if you have some crappy 10 year old panel with 12ms response time that runs at 60hz, sure. That's awful compared to a CRT. That simply isn't what I'm talking about, though.

A lot of this really depends on what your needs/goals are. If you're going to actually buy an original PCB and have a cabinet dedicated to a single game where you can gobble your knobs and tweak your potentiometers perfectly for that one single game and want everything to be original and authentic, I can totally see using a CRT.

If you're going to build a MAME cabinet to actually, you know, play games for fun, a good modern LCD really is the better option overall. You can't even play the new Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter IV on a CRT properly. I mean, just look at those cabinets that are running Street Fighter IV on a CRT at 640x480. The laughable aliasing is far more offensive than the analog on an LCD. At least the CRT shader on an LCD actually looks good. What if you want to play a contemporary 2D game? A CRT bottlenecks what you can do in so many ways, and the few advantages it has at this point simply doesn't outweigh the advantages of a good LCD.
Well beauty will always be in the eye of the beholder. I didn't mean for my post to be anti-LCD. There are a handful of things LCDs do better than CRTs. They are more energy efficient among other things. Personally I don't like how the backlight on LCD makes it so you can never have true blacks. No matter what filter or visual trick you use it will never produce a pure Black. I would love OLED whenever that becomes affordable. Heck MAME on the AMOLED screen of my phone looks fantastic.. on the small screen anyway and no frame lag at all. Although it doesn't have the flicker of a CRT that I miss on some games. Yes you can simulate it but it's not the same. Some nuances of a CRT make it unique, even if it doesn't technically make it 'better'.

Specifically when it comes to old Arcade games, CRTs generally look better because the games were designed to look as good as possible given the limits of low resolution. I've used HLSL in MAME on a good LCD that is fairly new. It looks good even to the point of almost confusing it for a CRT screen. But colors still blend together better and look more accurate on a CRT in my opinion. Old games were specifically designed for huge dot pitch screen with low resolutions. You can get close with LCD and very acceptable to the majority of people. Again it's all subjective.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 01:56:55 pm by mamenewb100 »
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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2014, 02:13:43 pm »
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the repair-ability of LCD's vs. CRT's.   I've gained basic knowledge of soldering, and electronics, because of the arcade and console modding hobby. During my time I've been able to learn how to bring a handful of Arcade CRT's back from the dead, up-keeping my Sony PVM and Commodore 1084S TV's through component renewing, solder reflowing, etc.  I can probably keep my CRT's running for 20 more years, even after some of them are already 20-30+years old now.

Due to the complexity of LCD tech, the miniaturized and non-standard components, there is no way I'd be able to keep them up and running for that kind of lifespan.
Mind you, not all CRT's are going to have the ability of longevity like this. But for Arcade monitors like G07's and K7000's do, and spare parts are easily available and replaceable on their chassis'.

I mean, don't get me wrong, LCD's are fine for the size factor, especially in more modern looking cabinet builds that tend to be slimmer in form. But I'm pretty sure the LCD you install in your cabinet is not going to last 7 - 10 years from now.

Also...lets not forget that without some sort of Aimtrak/IR sensor set-up w/ their own guns, proper Light-gun games ain't happening on an LCD.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 03:20:39 pm by opt2not »

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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2014, 02:16:13 pm »
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the repair-ability of LCD's vs. CRT's.   I've gained basic knowledge of soldering, and electronics, because of the arcade and console modding hobby. During my time I've been able to learn how to bring a handful of Arcade CRT's back from the dead, up-keeping my Sony PVM and Commodore 1084S TV's through component renewing, solder reflowing, etc.  I can probably keep my CRT's running for 20 more years, even after some of them are already 20-30+years old now.

Due to the complexity of LCD tech, the miniaturized and non-standard components, there is no way I'd be able to keep them up and running for that kind of lifespan.
Mind you, not all CRT's are going to have the ability of longevity like this. But for Arcade monitors like G07's and K7000's do, and soare parts are available and easily replaceable on their chassis'.

I mean, don't get me wrong, LCD's are fine for the size factor, especially in more modern looking cabinet builds that tend to be slimmer in form. But I'm pretty sure the LCD you install in your cabinet is not going to last 7 - 10 years from now.

Also...lets not forget that without some sort of Aimtrak/IR sensor set-up w/ their own guns, proper Light-gun games ain't happening on an LCD.

**Fix** an LCD? Bro, you just throw it away and buy another $800. Duh.
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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2014, 03:17:04 pm »
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the repair-ability of LCD's vs. CRT's.   I've gained basic knowledge of soldering, and electronics, because of the arcade and console modding hobby. During my time I've been able to learn how to bring a handful of Arcade CRT's back from the dead, up-keeping my Sony PVM and Commodore 1084S TV's through component renewing, solder reflowing, etc.  I can probably keep my CRT's running for 20 more years, even after some of them are already 20-30+years old now.

Due to the complexity of LCD tech, the miniaturized and non-standard components, there is no way I'd be able to keep them up and running for that kind of lifespan.
Mind you, not all CRT's are going to have the ability of longevity like this. But for Arcade monitors like G07's and K7000's do, and soare parts are available and easily replaceable on their chassis'.

I mean, don't get me wrong, LCD's are fine for the size factor, especially in more modern looking cabinet builds that tend to be slimmer in form. But I'm pretty sure the LCD you install in your cabinet is not going to last 7 - 10 years from now.

Also...lets not forget that without some sort of Aimtrak/IR sensor set-up w/ their own guns, proper Light-gun games ain't happening on an LCD.

**Fix** an LCD? Bro, you just throw it away and buy another $800. Duh.
Your probably being sarcastic but that's exactly the problem with electronics these days. Companies purposely making Junk so people just throw it away and buy a new shiny thing. The hypocrisy of wanting everybody to Go Green but encouraging people to dump electronic waste in a third world country somewhere. Quality needs to make a comeback! (I can dream)
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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2014, 04:43:28 pm »
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the repair-ability of LCD's vs. CRT's.   I've gained basic knowledge of soldering, and electronics, because of the arcade and console modding hobby. During my time I've been able to learn how to bring a handful of Arcade CRT's back from the dead, up-keeping my Sony PVM and Commodore 1084S TV's through component renewing, solder reflowing, etc.  I can probably keep my CRT's running for 20 more years, even after some of them are already 20-30+years old now.

Due to the complexity of LCD tech, the miniaturized and non-standard components, there is no way I'd be able to keep them up and running for that kind of lifespan.
Mind you, not all CRT's are going to have the ability of longevity like this. But for Arcade monitors like G07's and K7000's do, and soare parts are available and easily replaceable on their chassis'.

I mean, don't get me wrong, LCD's are fine for the size factor, especially in more modern looking cabinet builds that tend to be slimmer in form. But I'm pretty sure the LCD you install in your cabinet is not going to last 7 - 10 years from now.

Also...lets not forget that without some sort of Aimtrak/IR sensor set-up w/ their own guns, proper Light-gun games ain't happening on an LCD.

**Fix** an LCD? Bro, you just throw it away and buy another $800. Duh.
Your probably being sarcastic but that's exactly the problem with electronics these days. Companies purposely making Junk so people just throw it away and buy a new shiny thing. The hypocrisy of wanting everybody to Go Green but encouraging people to dump electronic waste in a third world country somewhere. Quality needs to make a comeback! (I can dream)

That was a joke for my homie Opt2Not, but I concur with your statement.
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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2014, 05:22:20 pm »

**Fix** an LCD? Bro, you just throw it away and buy another $800. Duh.
Your probably being sarcastic but that's exactly the problem with electronics these days. Companies purposely making Junk so people just throw it away and buy a new shiny thing. The hypocrisy of wanting everybody to Go Green but encouraging people to dump electronic waste in a third world country somewhere. Quality needs to make a comeback! (I can dream)

That was a joke for my homie Opt2Not, but I concur with your statement.
Here here!  :cheers:

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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2014, 09:57:30 pm »
It is perfectly ok to be anti-LCD. In my view, LCD is a stop gap solution, not the answer. Besides just old games, entertainment in general suffers from the transmissive technology in LCD. I want true blacks. I want colors that aren't washed out. I want fast response times without blur. I want brightness uniformity.

With that said, we should all keep an eye out for the Oculus Rift (but what gamer isn't right?). It should be the first affordable consumer device that showcases OLED. Hopefully, from there, it snowballs. CRT and its derivative technologies are dead.
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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2014, 11:58:54 pm »
I totally agree that LCDs are stop gap. I'm not entirely satisfied with motion blur and crappy backlights, either. I can't wait for good OLED screens. Having said that, though, I just want to stress two things:

1. All technology is a stop gap solution. It's always going to get better.

2. The new G-Sync panels are very, very good. They're the first LCD screens that I feel comfortable recommending for arcade cabinet use.

I just got this monitor today:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824009658&cm_re=acer_gsync-_-24-009-658-_-Product

The Acer and the Asus ROG Swift are both excellent in different ways. The Acer is only 60hz, so it can't run games that run at 60.60hz and so on at full speed, so that's its downfall for arcade games. 4k, though, looks absolutely amazing in SDLMAME with the Lottes shader. They're both 1ms response time panels, and the motion blur is _not bad_. I'm incredibly picky when it comes to motion blur, and they're not as good as a CRT in this regard, but they are good enough to the point where even an arcade enthusiast would find it acceptable.

If you want to try out the Lottes shader, extract this into your SDLMAME folder and see the ume.ini file for configuration:
https://sites.google.com/site/bigbluefrontend/lottesshader.zip?attredirects=0&d=1

I'd offer a link to my SDLMAME build for Windows, but I remove the nag screens, and MAMEdev requested that I not distribute that version, so you can build or download SDLMAME yourself elsewhere I guess.

The Lottes shader is a HUGE step forward for CRT simulation, because it's the first one that has a shadowmask effect that doesn't look like butt. The other great thing about it is that it doesn't even require super high resolutions to look good (even though it looks mindblowing at 4k). Here are a couple of other screenshots I took of it awhile ago (it actually looks better with the settings in the archive I linked):

https://436e85e1-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/bigbluefrontend/mkscreenshot.png
https://436e85e1-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/bigbluefrontend/knightsscreenshot.png

I'll see if I can post some 4k screenshots at some point.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 12:04:18 am by bulbousbeard »

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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2014, 04:51:13 pm »
I'll be pretty excited when I can get a 55" 4k g-sync tv/monitor for under $500. I've seen the g-sync in action on mame and it's really nice!

As a side note, I picked up a new 900 series NVidia card for my MAME cabinet, as my previous card took a dump. I don't need that level of card, but figured I'd get one because of their efficiency and I have to say they are pretty bad ass. At first I thought I had received a bum card because the fan wasn't running. But, it turns out, they run so cool, the fun doesn't need to run while just sitting on the desktop. Once you fire up something graphics intensive the fans will start to turn. But, it's pretty impressive even coming from the last generation of cards. So, I have that g-sync option in my back pocket if I ever need it. :)

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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2014, 08:45:35 am »
The problem with G-Sync is that it doesn't help you in non-PC applications. like installing an LCD on an original Arcade board or using an LCD with a console.

Anyone who things most consumer grade LCDs have low lag comparable to a CRT is fooling themselves. I urge you to check out http://displaylag.com this guy uses a laser lag tester to measure the actual combined input and response time lag of consumer grade displays.... once you're looking above 24" and getting into HDTVs instead of PC monitors even the best displays still have 2 frames worth of lag. I'm sure there are better industrial monitors out there but good luck finding one at a cost comparable to a used arcade monitor.

---------

The other issue I have with LCDs is aspect ratio. if I want to use an original arcade cab that was built for a 27" 4:3 display most of the time it's litterally impossible to find a 4:3 LCD that size AND if you were to use a 16:9/16:10 and black bar the image it's impossible to get it to fit within the cab... your only option is to go with a smaller display and now your LCD is causing a very real and apparent determent to the image quality and gaming experience as a result.


I like LCDs I have an LCD cab with HLSL games look just as good as they do on a CRT IMO, but until the lag is fixed and until we can get 4:3 displays in 25" and 27" sizes for less than the cost of a new CRT they will not be a viable replacement.

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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2014, 08:46:17 pm »
I really don't know why someone would want to run an LCD monitor with an original PCB, though. Seems kind of off. If you care enough to have to run the original PCB, you might as well go all the way and use a CRT, too.

It depends on how big of a screen you really want. I agree that there isn't a good G-Sync monitor that's going to be the same size as a 4:3 29" CRT (it's just not going to happen for a while). For me, though, anything bigger than 25" is just too big. You have to turn your head to see all of the screen at that point. I don't think it's comfortable.

The 28" G-Sync monitor when running something at 2880x2160 (4:3) is the equivalent of a 23" 4:3 CRT. Personally, I think that's pretty damned good. It's still a nice size screen. It's not going to fill a candy cabinet, but you could fill any wood style cabinet with that size nicely.

Two more considerations: it is SO nice being able to run a monitor in a cabinet without EVER worrying about burn-in. You can really abuse the hell out of LCDs in this regard without getting burn in. I don't like even worrying about it.

The real Achilles Heel for LCDs is the motion blur. Even though the most recent 1ms G-Sync monitors are pretty great in this regard, I'm still not entirely satisfied. I want it all!

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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2014, 11:28:18 pm »
I've said this in another thread and I'll bring it here, that one of the only reasons why I'd have a cabinet fitted with an LCD (especially a high quality one as suggested by bulbousbeard) is for vector games. When I was a kid growing up at the arcades between 78-83 (the golden era of machines as far as I'm concerned) most of my favorites happened to be vectors, such as Asteroids, Speed Freak, Omega Race, Star Wars and a host of others. When I play these on my raster CRT based cabinet I lament how awful they look. Vector games on a raster CRT just doesn't work for me. Raster games, on the other hand, look glorious and I doubt I could turn to LCD for those (although I have to give credit to bulbousbeard for a convincing argument over the benefits of G-Sync monitors. You'd make a great salesman mate. I'm sure if I walked into a tech store you'd have me sold on a G-Sync monitor in no time. :D )

Given that vector monitors are next to to impossible to find, a high quality LCD would be the next best thing. The fine dot pitch on many of these displays would be able to reproduce reasonably clean anti-aliased lines more closely resembling the original vector lines than a raster CRT could ever do. I've seen some excellent results from guys who have experimented and mucked around with HLSL settings. I had entertained the idea of putting together another cab for this specific purpose and maybe I may get around to it one year.

The other issue I have with LCDs is aspect ratio. if I want to use an original arcade cab that was built for a 27" 4:3 display most of the time it's litterally impossible to find a 4:3 LCD that size AND if you were to use a 16:9/16:10 and black bar the image it's impossible to get it to fit within the cab... your only option is to go with a smaller display and now your LCD is causing a very real and apparent determent to the image quality and gaming experience as a result.


I like LCDs I have an LCD cab with HLSL games look just as good as they do on a CRT IMO, but until the lag is fixed and until we can get 4:3 displays in 25" and 27" sizes for less than the cost of a new CRT they will not be a viable replacement.

I have to agree with this that it's a shame it's so hard to get a decent 4:3 LCD these days. Was looking for a 26" for the purpose stated above.

lamprey

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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2014, 12:11:06 pm »
I've said this in another thread and I'll bring it here, that one of the only reasons why I'd have a cabinet fitted with an LCD (especially a high quality one as suggested by bulbousbeard) is for vector games. When I was a kid growing up at the arcades between 78-83 (the golden era of machines as far as I'm concerned) most of my favorites happened to be vectors, such as Asteroids, Speed Freak, Omega Race, Star Wars and a host of others. When I play these on my raster CRT based cabinet I lament how awful they look. Vector games on a raster CRT just doesn't work for me. Raster games, on the other hand, look glorious and I doubt I could turn to LCD for those (although I have to give credit to bulbousbeard for a convincing argument over the benefits of G-Sync monitors. You'd make a great salesman mate. I'm sure if I walked into a tech store you'd have me sold on a G-Sync monitor in no time. :D )

That's a good thought and one of mine as well :). I'm (still) working on a Virtual Mame cabinet with a 55" 4k TV vertically oriented and I think it looks pretty cool. With the vector games, I'd be curious to know more about how mame handles the internal rendering. It could just be me, but it doesn't seem to render them at a high enough resolution to really take advantage of a 4k monitor. Perhaps, D3D is handling that and it's not strictly a matter of resolution, again I'm not familiar with how Mame does it. If the resolution is adjustable in some way, it would be nice to expose that as a parameter either to set the resolution or have a couple of presets for higher resolution rendering.

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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2014, 12:31:16 pm »
I really don't know why someone would want to run an LCD monitor with an original PCB, though. Seems kind of off. If you care enough to have to run the original PCB, you might as well go all the way and use a CRT, too.

CRTs are harder and harder to find.... I can walk into walmart and walk out with just about any sized LCD I want. or order one on Amazon and have it in 2 days for about $200.

If I want a CRT for a reasonable price I have to watching CraigsList for Weeks (Months?) and hope that someone sells a used one, for $75-$300 then I probably have to order a new flyback and cap kit to rebuild the thing, or send it out and have it rebuilt for another $150 and I probably have to tune and adjust it.... that's if one even ever pops up... if that doesn' happen my only options is to buy a junky Makvision for $600 + another $200 for shipping.

even if you prefer to play on the original PCBs, if you're missing a CRT or have a broken tube then finding a replacement is either prohibitively difficult or prohibitively expensive. There are many arcade operators and collectors alike who would rather be able to simply install a 4:3 LCD...

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Re: Interrogation about the real advantages of a CRT over a low-lag LCD today?
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2014, 01:05:33 pm »
There are many arcade operators and collectors alike who would rather be able to simply install a 4:3 LCD...
Man, good thing you didn't say that over at KLOV. They'd take out your entire family for saying that.. :)

But, seriously, you are right it is getting painful to get "quality" CRT compared to getting a flat panel.