Atari yoke questions

[cj138]

Hi everyone,
I am new to the hobby and would like to thank everyone who contributes to this forum since I have learned so much from it.  I recently decided to jump in well over my head and purchased a flight yoke.  I built a simple Street Fighter 2 style CP with an Ipac previously but aside from that I have ZERO experience, so I am looking for some guidance.  The yoke I bought was on a Lock-On cabinet which had been converted to play Star Wars via MAME.  I am curious if this is an original Lock-On yoke or where it came from otherwise.  There does not appear to be any gears.  There are two 5K pots (Bradley Allen EJ series), two triggers, two thumb buttons, and four sets of three wires (red, black and white) attached to each.
I attempted the dual sidewinder hack last weekend and it sort of worked for a few moments then stopped.  By "sort of" I mean it was not playable at all and the cursor barely moved and jumped occasionally.  I tried to test the pots with a multimeter and the reading jumped around as well.  I bought an APAC to simplify the interface process, wired the pot for the X axis and plugged it in to see what would happen.  The result was the cursor appeared against the right line of the calibration box and when I turned the yoke it barely jittered left.
I am thinking the pots are bad and need to be replaced, but I would like your input before I spend more money.
I am also curious if someone can verify the origin of this yoke.



Thanks,
Cj

[Xiaou2]

If your pots do not register properly and smoothly with a multimeter..  then its simply your pots are bad.

 Pots dont last forever.  The contact surface may be dirty, brushes worn, and or the contact material is also worn down.

 Get a new set of 5k pots.  Linear taper - not audio taper.

 Do not forget to calibrate the device in windows.

 If it works in Windows, and not well in Mame..  you probably have a settings issue in one of mames files and or analog settings menu.

 If you cant get brand new pots (tested on multimeter)  to work in win..  then you either hooked them up wrong... or your encoder may be busted... and or the driver software might be corrupted / incompatible with the version of windows your using.

[PL1]

Welcome aboard, Cj138.

It's definitely not a Star Wars, ESB, Jedi, FireFox, Star Fire or STUN Runner yoke.

It might be from a Hydra, but I'm just spitballing on that    -- check the owner manuals from this or this list of yoke games.

If the pots aren't responding smoothly like X2 mentioned, be sure to get long life replacement pots -- Clarostat/Honeywell is the manufacturer to choose.  (Ken Layton has mentioned elsewhere that some of the the ETI brand pots fail much sooner than advertised.)

When you check the pots, clip the ohm-meter leads onto the tabs of the pot to remove the possibility of bad wires/pins in the harness/connector.

If possible, use an analog meter because digital models have to sample/digitize which takes time and may cause misleading readings as you sweep through the range of the potentiometer.


Scott

[Le Chuck]

I haven't seen that yoke before.  The handles are the same as a STUN Runner or Hydra rather than SW (SR's don't have thumb buttons but it's an easy mod).  It looks like there is only one vertical axis centering spring but there could be two in there.  Does it center or does it return to top or bottom?

Looking at the stops I'm guessing it has about 60^o of rotation.  If you get regular pots to replace it you'll have to use a uhid or some other interface that allows full range of motion calibration as you won't be able to max out the 270^o rotation of the pots w/out the necessary gearing.  The pots that are in it are likely 60 degree pots that give a full variance in that range of motion - which is why it could be straight plug and played into mame. 

Without seeing your wiring diagram (even if it's just a napkin drawing) we can't help troubleshoot the connection.  The pots could be bad but if it was recently working in somebody's mame rig I'm guessing there's a connection issue at play.  Those limited deflection pots are stupid asspensive IIRC so you're better off working through other issues first before spending the cash. 

That's a cool yoke because of the reduced size - no ass end to it, but it creates some challenges because that likely means you're working with hard to come by specialty pots.  Cheapest I've found is about $80 for 5 (you'll have spares) and they're used... and they're from China so for all you know it could arrive and just be a bracelet.  Link: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Used-TOCOS-RVQ24YN03-04-B102-B1K-game-60-degrees-potentiometer/1002737731.html

I've seen these pots for as much as $120 ea - tho I can't recall where so consider that conjecture.  Infact it's a good idea to consider this whole post conjecture.    

[Generic Eric]

That looks like a replacemant part from happs
http://na.suzohapp.com/all_catalogs/joysticks/50-2502-00

[PL1]

That looks like a replacemant part from happs
http://na.suzohapp.com/all_catalogs/joysticks/50-2502-00

Correct.  Happ carries a variety of STUN Runner-style handles/handle parts which makes it easy to mod/revert that type of yoke.


Scott

[Paul Olson]

I have a mount that was made for Hydra, and it looks like that yoke would be what it was designed for. I cut it up a bit to make a Star Wars yoke, but it was definitely designed for this type of yoke.

[rockyrocket]

Here is a S.T.U.N Runner yoke.

[Xiaou2]

Odd design.    Might be from Tatsumi.

 Actually.. there IS gearing on the vertical axis - via a sliding lever setup.

 However, the horizontal axis, seems to be direct drive... though, I cant see clearly / and at the needed angles, to confirm 100%.

[cj138]

Thank you all very much for the warm welcome and input.

PL1, I did see the thread where Ken mentioned the Honeywell pots as a reasonably priced alternative.  He also advised they would require some filing to flatten the shaft.  I will try to get my hands on an analog meter.

Le Chuck, I forgot to mention in my original post, but the seller did state that there were "delay problems" on his set up which was why he was selling it.  I can turn the yoke almost 90 degrees, but I do not know the exact degree of rotation.  It does center and after checking again all I can find is one spring for the X axis.  I will try to get a wiring diagram together in the next few days.  You mention using a UHID, but I have an APAC will that suffice? The pots in there now are the Allen Bradley eja1n048f502m type ej model.  I am considering purchasing two of these:
 http://www.flippers.com/catalog/product_info.php/potentiometer-p-1930

I have done alot of poking around and found a video on youtube posted by Sean Newton which looks exactly like the setup my yoke came from.  Additionally, the seller I bought this from is from the same area as Sean.  According to the video Sean used the Dual Sidewinder hack.  Here is a link to the video:
 

I really appreciate the help everyone!
Best regards,
Cj

[cj138]

After a little more investigating I am confident this is the yoke I got.  I looked at the yoke cover (which has a reprinted star wars overlay like the one in the video) and noticed to gray stripes peeking out from the original sticker underneath, leading me to believe it is a Lock-On yoke.  Also, in the video Sean mentions he replaced the Y axis pot via Ram Controls and if you look at the picture I posted above, the color difference in the red between the X and Y axis pot indicate the Y axis was replaced.  I had not hooked the Y pot to the APAC because I knew the center wire had come loose, however, I re-soldered it and plugged it into the APAC.  A test revealed the Y axis responding steadily although it needs to be calibrated.
I am thinking I will replace the X pot and hopefully that should resolve my issues.  Will the flippers.com pot do the job and is it a reasonable price?
Thanks,
Cj

[lcmgadgets]

I've had my own struggles with a SW yoke, & was hoping I could help, but everything I might have suggested has already been posted.

So instead I'll say good luck, keep posting, & welcome to the forum Cj! 

[PL1]

If you're spending that much for a 320 degree pot, why not get this one from ArcadeFixIt?

No filing required.   


Scott

[Xiaou2]

I dont think you need an expensive pot, for a home use controller.   Ive replaced arcade pots with Radio Shack pots.  They probably wont fail for 5yrs of home use play.   If it was on location..  thats a whole different story.

 FYI - Star Wars actually auto-calibrates in-game.   When you play your first game..  roll the controller around to its fullest travel points, at least two times.   After that, the game should be calibrated, and will center the pointer in accordance with your yoke centering.

 Can you snap some other pictures of the assembly at different angles?  Im curious to see the x-axis, behind the plate.

 As for a "Delay", there might be a controller response issue, if that sliding lever arm has gotten worn down.

 As the driving-pin pushes the level arm up... its contacting the top surface of the sliding arm...   When you push in the other direction, the pin has to then hit the bottom surface of the sliding arm.   The problem here.. is if there is too much gap space between the sliding arm and the driving pin.   If the arms surface, and or the driving pin, has worn down...  the gap becomes larger..  and do when you change directions... you have a moment of control when nothing seems to happen.   You have to wait for the pin to travel through that empty space, before it finally hits the lever arm.

 To fix this, you may be able to have a machinist make you a new pin and or lever arm... or both.   

 As a temporary fix, you might be able tighten up the gap by making a straight edge that can attach to the side of the lever arm..  by using some epoxy paste, and a piece of wood (popsicle stick),  strip of metal, such as an aluminum ruler,  or a strip of plastic.

 (Use a soft metal, because you dont want to wear down the driving pin any more)

 If the driving pin is shot (no longer round)..  you might be able to affix it to a vise.. then sand it with a fixed based dremel or drill press.  Once sanded a bit, ...possibly putting a sleeve-ring around the thing.   (Or just adjusting the arm to fit the new, now 'smoothly round', diameter)


 This is the problem with lever arms, and why gears were the majority choice in arcade machines.

 Once fixed.. it should last a very long time for home use.   Just clean and lubricate it every so often, to reduce premature wear.



 

[Xiaou2]

Oh, also...

 If the yoke is turning nearly 90 degrees on the x axis..  its probably because theres a part(s)  missing or sheared off.

 I can see from the picture, that inside the yoke there are two nuts on either side of the shaft,  and on the rear of the unit... there is a center mounted nut.    Im guessing those are where the rubber bumpers are supposed to be attached, much like the original SW yoke design.

 The diameter of all 3 bumpers plays a factor in the full travel.   If they are the wrong diameter.. the yoke may have too much travel..  and 90 degrees seems like way too much travel for an arcade controller like this.

 The diameter should be something like  1" to  1.5".   Take a gander at the specs of the original SW yoke.. as Im sure its very similar.


 edit:  Noticed something thats pretty darn cool.  It has an adjustable sliding spring centering part.  Very unique, and a great option.   When springs age.. they change in their tension... and that can lead to things getting off-center.   By adding the slide plate, it allows you to keep using the spring, by just adjusting the lock down position.   Otherwise, you would need to get a brand new set of torsion springs.. and replacing them, means a lot of time taking the unit apart... they can be a real bear to get installed.

 Later arcade devices would use a different method of centering.  They often use an egg shaped shaft part..  and then use a lever with a bearing that rides on top of it..  That bar is under downward spring tension.   As soon as you start to turn the wheel...  the egg shape changes the diameter.. and causes the bearing to raise, and the tension thus increases.   Even if the spring tension starts to fade, the system still works well..  and even has help from gravity to boot.

[jdbailey1206]

If you're spending that much for a 320 degree pot, why not get this one from ArcadeFixIt?

No filing required.   


Scott

+1 for Arcadefixit.

[cj138]

Hey guys, thanks for all the advice.  I picked up a new pot from arcadefixit and installed it.  I also built a mount and wired the triggers and pots to my APAC.  For some reason the cursor keeps jumping around and I cannot calibrate the yoke.  Very frustrating.  I am very new to this and apologize in advance if I am making stupid mistakes.  I daisy chained the grounds from the triggers and the pots together, I also left two connectors disconnected so I can add buttons once the panel is closer to complete.  Might this explain the unsteady calibration?  I will draw a wiring diagram or take pictures if it will help.   
Thanks much,
Cj

[cj138]

Good Lord, I am sorry folks. My soldering skills are a joke. I reexamined and saw a loose wire. Nothing to see here. Please move along.