Main Restorations Software Audio/Jukebox/MP3 Everything Else Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements Monitor/Video GroovyMAME Merit/JVL Touchscreen Meet Up Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing Woodworking Software Support Forums Consoles Project Arcade Reviews
Automated Projects Artwork Frontend Support Forums Pinball Forum Discussion Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board controls.dat Linux Miscellaneous Arcade Wiki Discussion Old Archives
Lightguns Arcade1Up Try the site in https mode Site News

Unread posts | New Replies | Recent posts | Rules | Chatroom | Wiki | File Repository | RSS | Submit news

  

Author Topic: Extending wheel rotation on Logitech Formula Force EX  (Read 17446 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

vis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
  • Last login:December 09, 2013, 01:14:35 pm
  • I want to hack my FFEX!
Extending wheel rotation on Logitech Formula Force EX
« on: November 28, 2013, 02:00:17 pm »
Hi,
is it possible to extend rotation range of my Logitech Formula Force EX wheel?
Now it's only 180° (actually 200° according to SteeringWheelSDKDemo.exe)
I would like to get it to 270°

I tried to make it appear as a Driving Force Pro by hacking this regkey
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\MediaProperties\PrivateProperties\Joystick\OEM\VID_046D&PID_C294
It actually worked, I had even the slider with rotation range, but it still stopped at +/- 90° from center.

The wheel is pot based (rotary encoder), a small red and black piece (1 cm2 circa) at the end of the shaft with 3 wires coming out.
I actually opened it, forcing out 4 pins at the corners: inside there is a fixed conductive ring, where a circular metal clip (linked to the shaft) with 3 tips touches the ring and trasmits the electrical signal as rotates.
I thought it was possible to extend the rotation range because the conductive ring is almost a complete circle.

There is also a mechanical stop at +/- 90° integrated in the body upper cover, but it can be easily eliminated.
Also I cannot make it 360° rotation (or more) because of the wires coming out the shaft intertwine.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 02:02:29 pm by vis »

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: Extending wheel rotation on Logitech Formula Force EX
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2013, 03:13:57 am »

http://hackaday.com/2012/01/26/analog-joypad-for-your-retro-pc/

 A pot is basically an adjustable resistor.    Like swimming in mud -vs- water..   Electric current flow is reduced as it passes through the resistor.   This resistance is measured in Ohms.   Typical arcade pots use 5 ohm pots.  At its start point.. there is virtually zero resistance.  The middle would be around 2.5k... and the end of travel, 5k.

 In most arcade devices, they used mechanical gearing, to make the pot turn more, which creates higher resolution / sensitivity.

 The full travel of the pot is rarely fully used, and it rarely needs to be set to an exact physical point or electrical value.  Generally, a game will have a calibration routine you run... which registers the current centered position/value... then has you rolls the controller to its furthest points, to establish those values, to use in gameplay control.


 PC controllers typically use a 100k pots.   Hook the wrong value pot up, and it may not even register, and or it will not control properly.   Even though most PC hardware is set to use 100k pots...  some controllers have internal circuit-board convertes... so that their non standard valued pots will work.


 PC wheels are a little more tricky.  Some of these have both a pot value.. as well as an optical centering sensor.   The optical sensor stuff was generally added for force feedback wheels.

 Spring centered wheels often can get out of center alignment , as they got stressed over the years of use.  Also, pots can get worn.. which would cause inaccurate readings.   Force feeback motors help solve these problems, by using the FFB motors themselves, for centering the wheel... rather than merely using springs.


 Hacking a pc wheel that also has the optical centering on it, isnt easy, because the parts are usually very small.. and need very high precision alignment and stability.  (machine shop level accuracy)


 Im not an electronics guru.. so I often use mechanical solutions.   In this case, you may be able to down-gear the pot.  You will lose resolution this way.. but would gain the rotational travel.     The thing is.. most would prefer higher resolution with that added travel.   

 In such a case... theres no way to do this.. unless you know the limits of the interpreter PCBs.  You dont know if its capable of registering more than its current limits...  nor do you know if you can program its software drivers to accept that.

 Simply modding registry entries cant overcome a limit in actual hardware specs.

 Finally, the do make devices while allow full rotation to wired connections.  But,  the pots in your wheel are not meant to rotate 360.   Also, you wouldnt want to make a typical pc spin 360.  Your hardware be incapable of reading it, and the wheel probably isnt balanced nor well suited to high speed spinner rotations..   such as seen on a game of supersprint.   Needs good bearings, decent mass, good balance, proper circle shape, and a good gripping shape.

 360 degree wheels tend to use an optical sensor... much like a mouse wheel... to track rotation.   Its possible to use these on any kind of racing / spinner game  (in mame / games that allow mouse steering).  The only thing is that some people do not like the fact that the wheel wont physically center, in non 360 deg  games.


vis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
  • Last login:December 09, 2013, 01:14:35 pm
  • I want to hack my FFEX!
Re: Extending wheel rotation on Logitech Formula Force EX
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2013, 03:52:47 am »
Thank you for taking much time writing your exhaustive reply.
I want to point out that my wish is to extend rotation range to 270° (from 180°-200°)

Drnick

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1642
  • Last login:June 21, 2024, 03:32:31 pm
  • Plodding Through Life
Re: Extending wheel rotation on Logitech Formula Force EX
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2013, 04:31:35 am »
There will most likely be some stops on the shaft or similar that stop you turning the wheel too far. I would imagine that adjusting these will not be that easy.

vandale

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 411
  • Last login:September 11, 2024, 07:07:45 am
  • Id 10 and t error
Re: Extending wheel rotation on Logitech Formula Force EX
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2013, 05:47:23 am »
I looked into this when building my twin cab and found the EX is direct from wheel to pot, whereas the pro and GT versions have a rack and pinion setup onto a optical sensor allowing them to go past the 270 degrees.

My advise is to spend the extra 10-20 bucks and get the pro or gt, best cheap wheel before you move up to the G25 and 27's

Thanks

BadMouth

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9270
  • Last login:July 14, 2025, 01:30:54 pm
  • ...
Re: Extending wheel rotation on Logitech Formula Force EX
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2013, 12:13:45 pm »
Just an FYI, when setting up around 60 pc games with a G27, I had to reduce the rotation to 200 degrees or less on most of them for the controls to feel right.  More rotation just equals slower steering when it comes to games.

Fursphere

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1267
  • Last login:July 12, 2025, 03:05:16 pm
Re: Extending wheel rotation on Logitech Formula Force EX
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2013, 12:31:17 pm »
can you backup Logitech profiler settings? 

vis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
  • Last login:December 09, 2013, 01:14:35 pm
  • I want to hack my FFEX!
Re: Extending wheel rotation on Logitech Formula Force EX
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2013, 01:09:05 pm »
Quote from: Fursphere
can you backup Logitech profiler settings? 
I don't use Logitech Profiler

Quote from: Drnick
There will most likely be some stops on the shaft or similar that stop you turning the wheel too far. I would imagine that adjusting these will not be that easy.
Yes, there are stops in the upper cover, but it's not a problem getting rid of.

Quote from: BadMouth
Just an FYI, when setting up around 60 pc games with a G27, I had to reduce the rotation to 200 degrees or less on most of them for the controls to feel right.  More rotation just equals slower steering when it comes to games.
I think I'm staying with my current 200°
Thank you for your answers.

BadMouth

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9270
  • Last login:July 14, 2025, 01:30:54 pm
  • ...
Re: Extending wheel rotation on Logitech Formula Force EX
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2013, 01:13:26 pm »
can you backup Logitech profiler settings?

Yeah, files are automatically created, but I don't remember where they are stored.
(probably either in the profiler folder or in my documents)
You could copy those to another location and have them as backups.

Fursphere

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1267
  • Last login:July 12, 2025, 03:05:16 pm
Re: Extending wheel rotation on Logitech Formula Force EX
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2013, 01:24:24 pm »
can you backup Logitech profiler settings?

Yeah, files are automatically created, but I don't remember where they are stored.
(probably either in the profiler folder or in my documents)
You could copy those to another location and have them as backups.

I'm not sure if your familiar with "The NVidia Experience" - but its basically a program that hacks your game's config files based on known good settings automatically for graphics settings.

I keep toying with the idea of writing the same kind of program for the Logitech G27 - a profiler that actually sets up your controller in game - not just the controller itself.   I could probably do it in AHK or VB.  But it would be nice to make the steering wheel a bit more "plug and play".  Right now its just a mess PER GAME. 

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: Extending wheel rotation on Logitech Formula Force EX
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2013, 04:40:52 pm »
Quote
Just an FYI, when setting up around 60 pc games with a G27, I had to reduce the rotation to 200 degrees or less on most of them for the controls to feel right.  More rotation just equals slower steering when it comes to games.

 This is because of the way the games were programmed.   It probably scales the full calibrated range of input values.    So, unless the game is programmed to accept higher resolution... (More values),  then it will always reduce the movement in-game.   This does actually give you more precise control.. but since that control is too slow... its becomes unusable.

 You Might be able to re-calibrate the controller, but stop early rather than go to its full stop extremes.  In this way... windows would tell the game that its values were reduced.   I dont know what would happen if, during the game... you went past those values.   Also, I dont know if games can over-ride or if they auto/re-calibrate in-game.  (The arcade version of Starwars auto calibrates as its being used.  Not sure if its constant, a timed event, or only done when its first powered up.. then turned off when its established)

 If you could calibrate short - you could make a mechanical solution for changing the physical travel.   Race Drivin used a threaded rod system for its drive shaft travel limiter.  Really cool stuff.