Building an custom arcade from 1989 Midnight Resistance

[MedievalMan]

Played the game for about half hour after picking it up today.      Must be the SNK version of Contra.

Still in relatively good shape.   Joysticks aren't that responsive, so I'm certainly going to use new controls.

I've read a few DIY articles so far, and am very excited to finally start this project after wanting to for many years.


I have a couple questions / areas for suggestions;

(1)   Should I use a new LCD or use existing monitor?
From my understanding, using the arcade monitor (it's only a 19") would require a ~$100 video card to output the correct 15 kHz signal.      I figure might as well get a 23-26" LCD that will fit the enclosure for maybe $100 more than that.  I want to play games old and new, so that the old school games won't look 100% accurate isn't as important to me.

Can anyone suggest a good LCD for this purpose?  I'm thinking contrast ratio and viewing angle are especially important.

(2)  Arcade Controllers
I want something 2 player.   

If it would fit the cabinet, would it be better to try to install an already built arcade stick such as
http://www.xgaming.com/store/arcade-joysticks-and-game-controllers/product/x-arcade-dual-joystick/

or make a wood panel, stencil out the layout, drill it, and use a kit:
http://www.xgaming.com/store/arcade-parts-and-accessories/product/4-player-x-arcade-builders-kit-usb-ps2/
http://www.xgaming.com/store/arcade-parts-and-accessories/product/two-player-build-your-own-arcade-bundle-pcb/

To me it looks like the X-Arcade machine themselves went with the 1st approach.
http://www.xgaming.com/store/arcade-machines/product/x-arcade-machine-cabinet/


(3) Optional  Gamepad / Enclosure
For games better suited for  gamepad, I'm thinking of some sort of mechanism to keep 2 extra controllers retractable from the cabinet and handy to use.. maybe something similar to what game stores have used for console displays..  Any interesting ideas for this?

(4) Software
I'm reading MAME is handy here and can launch other emulators.   I've used SNES, N64, Sega Genesis, etc emulators in the past, this seems like a handy feature - especially for an arcade unit where I'd like to be able to easily select from 1000's of different games and platforms.


Thanks!

Matt

[mgb]

Hey Matt,
  Welcome.
 I'd say the general feel around here is to stay away from x arcade stuff as its kinda junky.

Number one piece of advice I think is to study alot. Read the project posts on this site and really get an understanding of what has worked well and hasn't for others.
  Be careful in your planning and think hard about what you must have as opposed to what you can live without.
It's easy to want every bell & whistle just to end up with an overcrowded cab that's not very playable.
  There are some games that I like but they don't play well on my cab so I either go without or play them on something else.

As far as CRT vs LCD goes, it's really preference and again what's important to you.
Personally I have a CRT in my cabinet, but they were alot easier to get then as compared to now.
   I have another emulator rig that I use hooked upto a. 32 LCD.
I use it for mame and console emulation. Truthfully I'm pretty happy with it on the LCD using scan line overlays.

As far as the software goes, mame is for the emulation of arcade games not consoles.
You will want to look into a frontend for bringing all the systems together. Check out Mala and Hyperspin as well as others.

One solution for having game pads to use for console games or player 3 & 4 on games like the Simpsons or tmnt, is to put external USB ports on the cabinet. Then you can jack in game pads as needed.

I personally don't care for using game pads on my cabinet. I'd rather sit on my couch to play consoles. Although some console games take real nice to actual arcade controls.

[ark_ader]

Hey Matt,
  Welcome.
 I'd say the general feel around here is to stay away from x arcade stuff as its kinda junky.

Number one piece of advice I think is to study alot. Read the project posts on this site and really get an understanding of what has worked well and hasn't for others.
  Be careful in your planning and think hard about what you must have as opposed to what you can live without.
It's easy to want every bell & whistle just to end up with an overcrowded cab that's not very playable.
  There are some games that I like but they don't play well on my cab so I either go without or play them on something else.

As far as CRT vs LCD goes, it's really preference and again what's important to you.
Personally I have a CRT in my cabinet, but they were alot easier to get then as compared to now.
   I have another emulator rig that I use hooked upto a. 32 LCD.
I use it for mame and console emulation. Truthfully I'm pretty happy with it on the LCD using scan line overlays.

As far as the software goes, mame is for the emulation of arcade games not consoles.
You will want to look into a frontend for bringing all the systems together. Check out Mala and Hyperspin as well as others.

One solution for having game pads to use for console games or player 3 & 4 on games like the Simpsons or tmnt, is to put external USB ports on the cabinet. Then you can jack in game pads as needed.

I personally don't care for using game pads on my cabinet. I'd rather sit on my couch to play consoles. Although some console games take real nice to actual arcade controls.

Xarcade is not junky, maybe not first choice, unless you plan to use consoles in your cabinet then X arcade is a must. 

Weight is not an issue for a full size cab so leave the CRT in.

Don't be afraid to make mistakes.

Don't be afraid to ask questions on this site.

Keep us updated. 

[mgb]

Ok, maybe junky wasn't the right word.

[MedievalMan]

Thinking of going with the X-arcade for controls - maybe I'll try a full custom controls if I made another arcade unit    
Trying to decide which would be better, fitting the existing X-Arcade 2 player unit or making a custom unit via kit + drilling holes into a  wood panel.
I'm lucky that the X Arcade 2 player controller will just fit the width of the existing arcade - 24.25" (it's like that must be an arcade standard for them to be the exact same size


As for games I'm considering are mostly NES-N64 era, maybe some a bit later for MAME, maybe the CRT would work.    Isn't the arcade monitor video signal output equivalent to 640x480?
Also curious if there are any motherboards with a video card capable of outputting this signal, or if dedicated video card is the must way to go.
It's just that a  bigger monitor (up to 24" wide) could fit in the cabinet - maybe a 25-27" diagonal 4:3 LCD (though tough to find..99% are 16:9 now).


Good idea for the USB ports on the side or front of the cabinet - will do that!

Thanks

-Matt

[MedievalMan]

I'm reading up a bit more on arcade monitor 15 kHz options,

(1)
Set the frequency of your existing video card to 15 khz with the help of a special software called a Tweaker. This can be done directly through front-ends for MAME such as ArcadeOS or AdvanceMAME for examples. This option as one major drawback, besides its initial setup and tuning which may be tricky: you have to delay the powering of your monitor, in order to wait for the Operating System and the Tweaker to load first.

(Not sure how well this works)

(2)
Or an modded ATI Radeon with native 15 kHz frequency support (supports 640x480 or 800x600 15 kHz)- about $90+tax
http://www.ultimarc.com/arcadeperfect.html



Also thinking, what about support for multiple monitors?  Would using the 19" CRT + an bigger LCD be feasible or useful for many games?..


However,
looking up the specs of this arcade monitor,
http://www.arcade-museum.com/M/Midnight_Resistance.html

Monitor:
Orientation: Horizontal
Type: Raster: Standard Resolution
CRT: Color
 STANDARD RESOLUTION

          HORIZONTAL                    VERTICAL
Scan Frequency: 15.72 KHz    Scan Frequency: 60.0 Hz
   Scan Period: 63.6 µSec       Scan Period: 16.7 mSec
  Active Video: 46.9 µSec      Active Video: 15.3 mSec
   Video Delay: 11.9 µSec       Video Delay:  1.2 mSec
    Sync Pulse:  4.7 µSec        Sync Pulse:  0.2 mSec
     Scan Line: 456 Pixels           Screen: 262 Lines
    Resolution: 336 Pixels       Resolution: 240 Lines
    Clock Freq: 7.16 MHz


Not sure if that would be sufficient for all games I'm looking for (some would need atleast 640x480?)

Matt

[MedievalMan]

I guess yet another option would be to get a 19-22" CRT (biggest that would fit in existing cabinet) and use that instead of the arcade monitor...  LCD only looks optimal at it's native resolution (not lower resolutions), the arcade monitor only has a low resolution, maybe CRT would be a balance between the two.

Decisions decisions.

-Matt

[paigeoliver]

Ok, I have built out a lot of these things. This is a first project, so lets keep it in the first project realm.

X-Arcade is junky. Your controls should be your absolute priority in your build budget. The x-arcade controls are basically a cheap knock off of the worst arcade controls ever available.

Monitor. You want a 21" CRT PC monitor early to mid 2000s vintage, should be had easily on craigslist for $25-$50. You don't want an LCD. Emulation natively has a small input lag and lcd monitors have a small display lag. Separately most people can't detect either, but together a lot of people notice it. If you REALLY have the bucks to spend, some distributors still have some 27" VGA (or tri mode) real crt arcade monitors left in stock. Expect to pay $400-$500. The quality on those last ever crts is not so great, although realistically you will probably go 20 years with one at home before you have a problem.

As for what you emulate. Stop at Sega Genesis. After that analog controls (that you don't have) and shoulder buttons used directionally (which don't translate well to arcade controls) become very prevalent and suck the joy out of a lot of games. It is all great and fun to play a game that expects an analog stick with an 8 way and then encounter a section that is IMPOSSIBLE TO PASS WITH AN 8-WAY (looking at you Lego Star Wars that is supposedly fine with 8way gamepads).

[paigeoliver]

Also, if you want personal email support from a very experience builder, then just send me that Midnight Resistance circuit board (one I don't have in my collection) and I will answer your email questions for the next year.

[MedievalMan]

Thanks for the offer.   Personal email assistance would be great

It does seem CRT would offer the best solution- and I can find 21" IBM or Viewsonic models for <$30 on Kijiji that should fit the enclosure.  Instead of spending $200 on a 24" LCD, or $100 for an extra 15 KhZ video card for the low res arcade monitor to work,  dump that money into controls instead.

If really wanted to play N64+ or games that need analog control, I'm probably going to a USB port on the side/front for gamepads.

-Matt

[MedievalMan]

I don't think I'll have the urge to hookup the Wii or PS2/3 to the arcade unit, so I  guess I can do something better than X-Arcade for controls.

http://www.ultimarc.com/ipac1.html
For Arcade I/O - PC I/O (32 i/o should be plenty.. .I'm planning 2 player, 2 joysticks maybe 8 buttons each?
$39
I'm familiar with the wiring interface - motor driver interaces I've built in the past have used similar.

What about a full analog stick (not sure if they'd work as well for digital inputs quite as well just through software map, but they have a 8 way restriction option too)
http://www.ultimarc.com/ultrastik_info.html
$59 a piece... but only need 2.

[yotsuya]

Also, if you want personal email support from a very experience builder, then just send me that Midnight Resistance circuit board (one I don't have in my collection) and I will answer your email questions for the next year.

 

[yotsuya]

Btw, Paige is a very experienced builder, and I agree with his points.

[Nephasth]

<--- Will work for PCBs.

[mgb]

The U360 stick from Ultimarc is a very popular stick around here.

[opt2not]

Back off ya' vultures...I got dibs with a cash offer before all y'all's.

So, how about that cash offer...? I can see why you didn't reply to my PM now...

Lots of experienced builders here willing to give you advice and you don't have to send them all PCBs.

[bimm25e]

Ive been buying video cards that are compatible with soft 15khz for about $15 shipped... 

I would make your own control panel using 2x "Zero Delay USB Encoder"s

I would stick with the CRT so you dont have to buy a HD monitor AND you get to keep the CRT, classic games are better on CRT, its a fact.

It sounds like you have a lot of learning to do before youre ready though, I would spend more time planning before you start buying stuff and finding out you don't need/want it.

[MedievalMan]

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

I have a lot of learning to do - but already found out/read about ZD Encoders.  Definitely will be using those for my arcade controls.  Hopefully I can catch on quick - my background is in EE and I was an avoid user of NES-N64 era emulators

I like about the ZD encoders:
a) They have quick connectors instead of having to splice wires like the standard I/O boards (like the IPAC and motor drivers I've worked with in the past).
b) Appears as a gamepad in Windows.

I haven't ordered anything yet - I plan to try to order by early December though, would like to start this project during 2 week Christmas break.

I'm thinking of getting 2x U360's for the joysticks (analog and digital control).   Also getting the optional wiring harness and connecting the 8 way discrete outputs from the joystick to the ZD encoder 8 way joystick inputs.   This way each player's U360 joystick and 6-8 buttons will come up as a single gamepad.    The analog control of each stick would still be available from the U360 standard USB output (better make sure I get a |PC with at least 6-8 USB inputs!)

I'm not sure if I need the authenticity of getting the option mechanical 4/8 way hard stops for this joystick.

Does anyone have any recommendations for buttons?  Otherwise will probably get them along with U360's.

Thanks

Matt

[MedievalMan]

bimm25e ,

Did you mean to keep the 19" Arcade low res CRT or install a 21" higher resolution CRT as others suggested?

My only concern is the low resolution of the arcade monitor, and it's output is a bit dim compared to newer CRT's  - not sure if that's mainly the monitor or PCB video output though.

Thanks.

Matt

[opt2not]

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

I have a lot of learning to do - but already found out/read about ZD Encoders.  Definitely will be using those for my arcade controls.  Hopefully I can catch on quick - my background is in EE and I was an avoid user of NES-N64 era emulators

I like about the ZD encoders:
a) They have quick connectors instead of having to splice wires like the standard I/O boards (like the IPAC and motor drivers I've worked with in the past).
b) Appears as a gamepad in Windows.

c) they're cheap!

Just be sure to get it from somewhere that has a good exchange/return policy. I've been reading that some people have received faulty units.

I'm not sure if I need the authenticity of getting the option mechanical 4/8 way hard stops for this joystick.

For me, it's night and day. I love the physical gates of 4 way controls, for games like Burgertime and DK especially. Those games are so harsh and finite for the cardinal directions that it can be really frustrating without a physical restriction.
But U360's are great sticks too, you really can't go wrong there.

I want to try out Ultimarc's Servo stick, which is based on the Sanwa JLW (the japanese stick that feels more like a north american one...), but I don't have an application for it right now.

JLW's are great all-round sticks as well.

Does anyone have any recommendations for buttons?  Otherwise will probably get them along with U360's.

Do you like the classic north american style Happs buttons? With the concave plungers?

Or the feel of the Japanese style Sanwa/Seimitsu buttons you see featured on most modern-day arcade sticks?  Those are convex buttons, with light actuation.

My personal favourite is the Seimitsu japanese buttons. They aren't as light as the Sanwa's, but still have a quicker actuation than Happs w/ cherry switches. The only downside is the seimitsu's are short, so you'll have to mount it in a panel with less than a 1/4" thickness. All the japanese buttons come in a plethora of colours.

[pbj]

X-Arcades are nice controllers.  The only people that truly dislike them are butthurt because they couldn't get $1,500 for their junky MAME cabinets anymore, just like those before them are butthurt over TV joysticks killing off their $1,500 Ms PacMan customers.

If you're going to do a cabinet, it seems a little silly and wasteful to utilize an X-Arcade as a control panel.  But you can spend a lot of money on buttons and joysticks and nobody will notice or care.


I don't think anyone has even come close to the functionality it offers on consoles....  I guess that weird KADE thing that jumped from $10 to $40 and requires a degree in computer science.

 

[mgb]

You mentioned the 8 outputs from the u360s. Remember an 8 way joystick uses only 4 inputs of an encoder. It's just 8 way in that it allows two switches to be hit at once.
Also the u360 allows for 8 inputs so depending on how many buttons you plan on going with, it's possible in some cases to have no encoder. The u360s act as the encoder.

I'm also a fan of true restriction and I'm a fan of Jlws. Some will poo poo them but with some tweaking they make great sticks.
 They definitely don't do well for Frogger which needs a nice tight 4-way

[PL1]

I guess that weird KADE thing that jumped from $10 to $40 and requires a degree in computer science.

I can tell you missed the evolution of KADE whiile you were gone. 

You appear to be comparing price difference between a Minimus AVR without pins or screw terminals ($10) to who knows what. (the regular KADE currently sells for $29 and the micro sells for $35)

The KADE Loader GUI software for loading firmwares/customizing keymaps is easy to use and includes directions/pictures/diagrams -- or do you think that pulldown menus require "a degree in computer science."   




Scott

[MedievalMan]

Now I have more things to consider  

opt2not,

Maybe I will get those optional 4/8 way restriction plates for the U360. 
How difficult are these to remove/add?   

It's too bad there's no U360 stick with a servo motor to automatically place/remove the restriction plates - that would be cool


mgb,

Thanks for the note.  I didn't realize the U360 also had inputs for buttons - I am planning 8 buttons so can probably just use that instead of the ZD encoder.   This way there will be 1 USB output for each controller (U360 + 8 button inputs), instead of 1 USB for the analog stick and 1 USB from the ZD encoder.

-Matt

[pbj]

I can tell you missed the evolution of KADE whiile you were gone. 

I was around when it started off as "We're gonna be CHEAP!" and turned into, "we're gonna cost just as much, if not more, but we'll be BETTER!"  I admittedly lost interest immediately.

 

[MedievalMan]

Do you like the classic north american style Happs buttons? With the concave plungers?

Or the feel of the Japanese style Sanwa/Seimitsu buttons you see featured on most modern-day arcade sticks?  Those are convex buttons, with light actuation.

My personal favourite is the Seimitsu japanese buttons. They aren't as light as the Sanwa's, but still have a quicker actuation than Happs w/ cherry switches. The only downside is the seimitsu's are short, so you'll have to mount it in a panel with less than a 1/4" thickness. All the japanese buttons come in a plethora of colours.

I think I'm going to use the U360's - I'm not sure what the minimum panel thickness would be for installing these guys just yet, and if <1/4" thickness would cause issue.    The Seimitsu do seem nice (I played arcades mostly when I was younger when they were common everywhere.. can't recall well enough which button styles I preferred).  I guess I can go with the Happs style if I need to use a thicker panel than 1/4".


On that note, for the control panel, is there a type of wood that works best?   Definitely will need to cover it with some laminate or something for finishing (going to think of a cool design /  artwork to put on it).  Another option would be the plexi-glass likes on the existing unit (but would need to cut that too to fit).

-Matt

[mgb]

Mdf or plywood will work well.
  Remember when counting buttons, you will need inputs for coin and starts

Are you planning on having a trackball?

[degenatrons]

I can tell you missed the evolution of KADE whiile you were gone. 

I was around when it started off as "We're gonna be CHEAP!" and turned into, "we're gonna cost just as much, if not more, but we'll be BETTER!"  I admittedly lost interest immediately.

 

I don't remember that bit 

You can still grab yourself and AVR and load it up with KADE firmware if you want to save $ .  It's open so you can do that.
Sure we make a little on those units we sell with PCBs/Terminals but that funds our hobby with most or all of the proceeds going back into development.
 

[MedievalMan]

Are there any Canadian sellers of U360/Ultimac products? 

Or will I need to order them from the US?

I've been reading various posts on using U360's as analog and 4/8 way sticks - seems some people like them and others not so much for the 4/8 way operation.

Trying to decide if it would be better to go with 2 standard sticks and 1 analog, or 2 analogs and use them for 4/8 way operation as well.

Thanks!


Matt

[MedievalMan]

Picked up the PC (3.4 Ghz dual core, 8 GB ram, Radeon 6450 1 GB vid card, 200 GB SSD drive) -just a "low end desktop" but should suffice.
Should even run even relatively new PC games at low/medium settings, and for MAME and up to N64/PS1 emulation with no issue.

Love the Solid state drive, Windows 7 boots up in like 15 sec flat!

Also got the 21" CRT:
http://kitchener.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-computer-accessories-monitors-View-Sonic-21-inch-CRT-Monitor-with-USB-Hub-W0QQAdIdZ546881851

Think I'll just order the controls directly for Ultimac products - hopefully will get here by Christmas break :/

A couple questions,
(1) Windows 7 OK for MAME/console emulation, or should I revert back to Windows XP?

(2) I'm thinking maybe a NES themed arcade, might get some inspiration from something similar to:
http://imgur.com/gallery/ajacB.
(not going to do a trackball for this one though)

With 8 buttons available for each U360 stick, I'd have enough for 6 buttons + select/start 2 buttons.

How important is the "coin" button for MAME?   Could it be mapped to maybe one of the other 2 "start/select" buttons?

Or I could get one extra IPAC for any excess buttons...

Cheers,

Matt

[MedievalMan]

Going with the following for controls:

2 x GoldLeaf Pushbuttons (black)
12 x GoldLeaf Pushbuttons (red)
2 x Joystick Mounting Kits (5mm for U360)
1 x Start Logo Pushbuttons Black (1 player).
1 x Start Logo Pushbuttons Black. (2 player)
2 x UltraStik 360 Oval Top with USB cable  (black oval top)
2 x UltraStik Button / Encoder Harness
2 x UltraStik Front-Mounted Restrictor Kit
Total: $231.10

Looks like the front mount restrictor plate will be my best bet for easy swap out - pure 4/8 way stick would be ideal for older games but this is my next best bet to have something that will cover the widest range of games.

Anything I'm missing? Looks like the gold leaf pushbuttons should fit in the 3/4" thick panel that I'd be using.

To me it seems the main difference between these and the Classic Pushbuttons would be the classics having a longer plunger, more "physical actuation" feel?  I'm thinking the gold leaf will be better for a wider selection of games?

Thanks

Matt   

[MedievalMan]

Will get a few buttons for spares in case I plan additional optional buttons, and get a ZD encoder for them.

I only have a 24" x 7" surface to work with (using framework of existing unit), don't want to make it too crowded...

[MedievalMan]

Control panel joysticks, buttons and interfacing already made it to Canada from the UK, should be here this week I suspect.
So I need to start planning out the physical part in the meantime

Reading up on control panel physical construction,

I'm thinking 5/8" MDF with a 1/8" clear polycarb layer on top  (instead of plexi - less prone to cracking) -  total approx 3/4" thick

I have a hand saw, good electric drill, and will get some 1 1/8"  bits for drilling the joystick/button holes.. should this be enough tools for the job?
 
Is it better to try to drill through both the polycarb/ 5/8" MDF at the same time, or copy the layout to both and drill separately (probably harder to line up afterwards though).

Thanks again for the advice.

Matt

[opt2not]

For drilling, I highly recommend a forstner bit. I find they work a lot better than the classic spade bits, giving me a cleaner hole when cut.

[harveybirdman]

Hey Matt do you need somebody to take those rotary joys of your hands? (Assuming since it had midnight resistance in there that it had rotary joysticks)

[MedievalMan]

Harvey,

I could send them to you for the price of shipping only.

However, they are not that responsive - I sometimes have to move a few circles in order to get them to move in the desired direction, and sometimes they don't move the right way  (maybe the kids who used this unit were too rough with them over the years?)

I've managed to get about half way though the game (haven't finished it yet - it's more difficult when you have to finish all in one sitting - how did kids finish this game with quarter  back in the day? )  , but without unlimited lives it would nigh impossible

-Matt

[MedievalMan]

Figured I might as well post a pic of the before state before I start taking things apart (gotta beat the game in it's original state first though! )

[MedievalMan]

Thanks for the bit suggestion.  I'll pick those up with the MDF and plexi.

I looked and they also had acrylic sheets on smaller more appropriate sizes near the plexi.  Its clear and seems just as durable as the plexi..Would it be suitable?   Could cut it without needing a skill saw.

Also, given I'm modding am existing cab, what would you guys recommend for fitting the new control panel to existing cab (certainly would need to remove the existing control panel top.

[harveybirdman]

Do you have access to a metal brake? A metal panel would be sweet.   Too bad you're not closer i have access to one.

Acrylic isn't as strong. I suggest you take a peek at selfie's plastic thread in the woodworking forum.  Lots of good info there.

Hinging it so it opens forward is a nice feature for easy access to the under side of the panel.

[opt2not]

If you're on a budget, AND if you're putting wood on as a base underneath, the acrylic will do you fine. Personally I like Lexan, it's pretty f-ing strong, but it's a bit more pricey. Especially up here in Canada.

A metal panel would be best though. If you can find a metal shop, I'm sure they can repro a panel for you, with a  layout you can specify.

I'm not a fan of the plexi style panels. I'd rather have a clean metal or wood one and put that tough artwork on it and that's it. Plexi on panels are for those who are afraid of spilling, but it's a false fear, because even if you do spill, liquids will penetrate the panel through button and joystick holes anyways.