Main Restorations Software Audio/Jukebox/MP3 Everything Else Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements Monitor/Video GroovyMAME Merit/JVL Touchscreen Meet Up Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing Woodworking Software Support Forums Consoles Project Arcade Reviews
Automated Projects Artwork Frontend Support Forums Pinball Forum Discussion Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board controls.dat Linux Miscellaneous Arcade Wiki Discussion Old Archives
Lightguns Arcade1Up Try the site in https mode Site News

Unread posts | New Replies | Recent posts | Rules | Chatroom | Wiki | File Repository | RSS | Submit news

  

Author Topic: "MAMEdev are *aggressively* trying to move to a commercial license" What???  (Read 18394 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Vigo

  • the Scourage of Carpathia
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+24)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6417
  • Last login:June 25, 2025, 03:09:16 pm
Sounds like the museum complaint is just an excuse. Educational purposes shouldn't be considered commercial and if they are restricted by the license, then it is a simple matter of some minor exclusions being written into the current license.

If it is moved to commercial, then do all coders involved get royalties? Seems like the move would be a huge legal snafu, being that it was not created by paid employees.

Haze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1296
  • Last login:October 04, 2023, 08:30:02 am
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
    • MAME Development Blog
Sounds like the museum complaint is just an excuse. Educational purposes shouldn't be considered commercial and if they are restricted by the license, then it is a simple matter of some minor exclusions being written into the current license.

If it is moved to commercial, then do all coders involved get royalties? Seems like the move would be a huge legal snafu, being that it was not created by paid employees.

Again I stress, a license that permits commercial use doesn't mean Mamedev will be selling it.  It does mean anybody else can sell it tho.

I agree, it's going too far, and that we could simply agree to exemptions to the license clause for such uses (if needed) on a per case basis.  Also simply reworking the license to indicate we approve of such uses would be a lot more acceptable than reworking it into one that means anybody can sell MAME, charge people to use MAME, bundle up MAME with their own 5 minute hack-job frontend and pretend it's not MAME but the worlds greatest arcade emulator and sell that (as long as they have a source linked tucked away somewhere) or whatever else they want.

Like I've said, I've always considered this an academic project, one of cultural significance, that has been the reason for my contributions over the years.  I know people ARE making money off it, but we don't approve of that and our existing license makes that very clear.

I've updated my post to reflect the main beef I have with the way this is being done.  If I was being entirely selfish about this I wouldn't really even care that much, because by the logic proposed it does put ME in a position to deny the use of many many drivers due to my personal disagreement with the new terms.

My issue is that it's completely inconsiderate of the views of the hundreds and thousands of other contributors who have made tweaks and improvements to drivers over the years.  Somebody like Howard here who has hooked up the lamps in various drivers is likely to be considered a 'minor contribution' and his opinion on how his code was used in the future would apparently not matter because he is not one of the primary contributors to the driver.  Personally I feel that is illegal.  Howard submitted his code under the MAME license, he would have to agree for the license on the code he submitted to be changed.  Multiply that across the entire project and you've got hundreds of lower-level contributors who are going to have a fundamental part of the license (permitting commercial use) on their code changed against their will and without proper consultation.  This would make all MAME versions with the replaced license information flat out illegal (surely defeating the very objective of allowing commercial use!)

As I've also mentioned on my page, the attitude demonstrated was that the people who have worked on drivers don't matter either if they won't agree.  The hard work they've put into it (and figuring things out in the first place is always the hardest part of emulation) will simply be taken and 'rewritten' in new files, with the person who actually figured everything out having no say at all.  While legally this part is fine I find it to be morally corrupt with a team, and basically a FU to the people who have spent years working this out.  Some of the hardest work in the project has been done by people like Charles MacDonald who have barely a line of code to their name.

MAME would not be MAME without the work of all these people.  We can't suddenly ignore them and pretend that smaller contributions are unimportant as far as the licensing goes; sometimes it's the one line change that's the difference between working and not working even.

This annoyed me more initially because it was even said that anybody who didn't make an effort to claim their code within 30 days would automatically be assumed to agree with the change.  At least that part was shot down, but the rest needs shooting down too.

Aaron is being very bullish over this change, and I don't see how it is actually any good for anybody.  While I do feel something like Museums are a worthy cause I agree that it is being used as an excuse to make far more broadly reaching changes.  I feel the only CLEAN way aaron can do this is to take the bits of code that he is the sole contributor for and start a fresh project, none of the MAME drivers can be considered clean because many of them predate even SVN records to show exactly who worked on them.

You see the issue?
 
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 02:16:24 pm by Haze »

Haze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1296
  • Last login:October 04, 2023, 08:30:02 am
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
    • MAME Development Blog
I know he had sent in Hard Drivin Panorama roms and information years ago... and the team didnt do anything with them... and he said he wasnt very happy about that.

you've mentioned this before, but I'm not sure you comprehend the difficulty..

It's *3* Hard Drivin' boards linked together.

MAME was never really designed for this setup, it could be kludged in, but it would be ugly and until recently involve an absolute ton of copy+pasted code.

I know in hardware terms 3 boards linked together might sound trivial, and I can understand the disappointment, but in MAME terms it's a little bit 'holy cr*p'

In more recent years it's a more realistic emulation target, but it's a driver Aaron did most of the work on, and I don't think Aaron has actually *emulated* ANYTHING since around 2008, 5 years ago and even that was a one-off blip of work.  In the same time period people like Kale and myself must have worked on near 100 working drivers.

Somebody could probably take that driver and try to figure it out, but it would be more logical if Aaron himself did it.  The recent changes being made would also put the driver 100% under the ownership of Aaron rather than the team which IMHO is even more likely to further discourage work in this area as refactoring it for RDP to work would probably be considered a minor change unless you wanted to rip out the whole driver and (pointlessly) rewrite it just to be able to claim your own credit on it.


« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 03:00:29 pm by Haze »

Vigo

  • the Scourage of Carpathia
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+24)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6417
  • Last login:June 25, 2025, 03:09:16 pm
Sounds like the museum complaint is just an excuse. Educational purposes shouldn't be considered commercial and if they are restricted by the license, then it is a simple matter of some minor exclusions being written into the current license.

If it is moved to commercial, then do all coders involved get royalties? Seems like the move would be a huge legal snafu, being that it was not created by paid employees.

Again I stress, a license that permits commercial use doesn't mean Mamedev will be selling it.  It does mean anybody else can sell it tho.

That is what I was sort reaching at with my point. If X, Y, and Z company all start selling mame *Legally* at no cost of their own, then where does that leave the people who actually contributed under the impression that they were actually contributing to a non-profit operation? I would think that anybody and everybody involved could turn this into a legal battle when their work starts lining the pockets of whoever wants to cash in on this. Unless contributors all waived rights over their contributions, no matter if it is used commercial or not. (did they?)

Haze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1296
  • Last login:October 04, 2023, 08:30:02 am
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
    • MAME Development Blog
Sounds like the museum complaint is just an excuse. Educational purposes shouldn't be considered commercial and if they are restricted by the license, then it is a simple matter of some minor exclusions being written into the current license.

If it is moved to commercial, then do all coders involved get royalties? Seems like the move would be a huge legal snafu, being that it was not created by paid employees.

Again I stress, a license that permits commercial use doesn't mean Mamedev will be selling it.  It does mean anybody else can sell it tho.

That is what I was sort reaching at with my point. If X, Y, and Z company all start selling mame *Legally* at no cost of their own, then where does that leave the people who actually contributed under the impression that they were actually contributing to a non-profit operation? I would think that anybody and everybody involved could turn this into a legal battle when their work starts lining the pockets of whoever wants to cash in on this. Unless contributors all waived rights over their contributions, no matter if it is used commercial or not. (did they?)

If a company start selling it that company get the money, Mamedev are not entitled to a penny.

This is why so many companies take GPL products (video converters, mp3 encoders) package them up with a crappy VB frontend and sell them with the source link hidden away somewhere in a corner of the page. 

I've known so many people tricked into buying such things it isn't funny.  The people buying them don't know what 'GPL' is or 'Source code' is, their thought process is simply 'software I want' '£50' 'must be better than the free ones' 'buy' 

While perfectly legal I'm not a fan of that model to say the least.

ark_ader

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5645
  • Last login:March 02, 2019, 07:35:34 pm
  • I glow in the dark.
Quote
You see the issue?

I don't blame you for your comments as I always referred you as the "father" of MAME during its most active years.  Aaron is the coding god in my book, and the guy knows how to make important decisions with regard to the project.  I would not be surprised if he got a memo from some R&D wing at Xbox Live to use MAME code for Xbox One.  It sounds completely logical.

The sky isn't falling Haze, just a new licensing position that will open a lot more doors, and help the project become more successful.  MAME cannot get away from its heritage of abusing IP or promoting the use of pirated copyright software/hardware, but it could mend fences and provide the means to those who would like to experiment.

Just get over it Haze and go back to what you do best (code/piss and moan/innovate).   :cheers:

Quote
I would think that anybody and everybody involved could turn this into a legal battle when their work starts lining the pockets of whoever wants to cash in on this.

Linus Torvalds is a classic example.   MAME was created with playing old arcade games from the start.  The Devs switched to the archiving stance when the penny dropped that they all could be sued to oblivion.  If a company started selling MAME under GPL the defending devs would be treading on perilous thin ice as their IP has been built from "borrowed" so many protected copyrighted works.  It would open the door to litigation  ::) 

Linus got royally screwed over by those around him.  MAME deserves to be treated in the same way IMHO.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 03:32:47 pm by ark_ader »
If I had only one wish, it would be for three more wishes.

Locke141

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1692
  • Last login:February 23, 2025, 06:44:01 pm
  • Never grow up.
Quote
Just get over it Haze and go back to what you do best (code/piss and moan/innovate).   :cheers:

Your kind of a purple helmet warrior. You can disagree with some one without calling them names. Stop trolling.

I will not respond to any thing further you post.  :troll:
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 04:01:00 pm by Locke141 »

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9270
  • Last login:July 14, 2025, 01:30:54 pm
  • ...
I would not be surprised if he got a memo from some R&D wing at Xbox Live to use MAME code for Xbox One.

Hopefully it would be better than the POS that was Game Room for Games for Windows Live.
I thought I'd give it a try.  40 minutes worth of updates and restarts later, I played an Atari 2600 game.

ark_ader

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5645
  • Last login:March 02, 2019, 07:35:34 pm
  • I glow in the dark.
I would not be surprised if he got a memo from some R&D wing at Xbox Live to use MAME code for Xbox One.

Hopefully it would be better than the POS that was Game Room for Games for Windows Live.
I thought I'd give it a try.  40 minutes worth of updates and restarts later, I played an Atari 2600 game.

Me too.  Yars Revenge for 80 MS Points.  Just for a laugh, and laugh I did.
If I had only one wish, it would be for three more wishes.

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Quote
academic project

 That cant seem to get a simple switch put in to enable arcade accurate controls for certain games.  F for Fail.

Quote
You know what? Why don't you do something about it, then? I know enough about development to do very, very rudimentary things with a programming language. I can only imagine the amount of knowledge that the MAME Developers have, to even remotely come close to what they've managed to accomplish, and I'd pretty much guarantee you don't either.


 I did. I offered to Pay.

 Programming isnt my field of expertise.  If it was, it would be the very First, and most Important thing to get working before I labeled a game as "Working".

 Its NOT working.  It cant be controlled with the Arcade intended controller.   Thats like building a replica of the Titanic, and instead of putting a boat wheel on it... put a Sega Genesis controller there instead and call it a day.   It Working!  Its historically Accurate?!  Academic my foot.


Quote
I would never state anything anywhere close as disrespectful as you seem to ad nauseum. The greatest insult of all are people like you who think the MAME Developers owe them anything.

 Who said I think that?  You must be channeling Haze.   I believe, that its disrespectful to the Classics, to have them operate incorrectly, as well as the Designers and Team that put their hearts, souls, and a lot more blood sweat and tears into these creations...  all for some young punk kid to claim its OK, just use a Gamepad to play Spyhunter!  What a Joke. A sad one.   Thats Disrespect man.

 Historical Preservation IS preserving every aspect of that venue.   Not just the Parts and Pieces that YOU personally deem worthy.  Thats Ludicrous.

 And btw - I DO have some entitlement, cosidering that many of the Teams ability to emulate springs from Donations. Hence, many rare Jems wouldnt have EVER came into their hands, if it wasnt for people just as passionate.  Many of which actually Like playing them, and Like Driving games that have Shifters.  Imagine That?!


Quote
I'm not taking sides on the debate. Personally, I know that I don't know enough about the situation to provide a good opinion on the matter. I do know about human decency and respect, however, and I can certainly call an ---uvula--- an ---uvula--- when I see one.

 It takes one to know one   ;)    And from most of the post Ive seen of you... well, I came to that conclusion.

 Cheers

  :cheers:
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 07:10:06 pm by Xiaou2 »

shponglefan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1600
  • Last login:December 15, 2022, 07:22:35 am
  • Correct horse battery staple
I believe, that its disrespectful to the Classics, to have them operate incorrectly, as well as the Designers and Team that put their hearts, souls, and a lot more blood sweat and tears into these creations...  all for some young punk kid to claim its OK, just use a Gamepad to play Spyhunter!  What a Joke. A sad one.   Thats Disrespect man.

They're only video games dude.  They're only video games.

JoeB

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 628
  • Last login:June 27, 2025, 08:23:34 am
  • NES Fanatic
They're only video games dude.  They're only video games.

!?!?!! Sacrilege! I call for permanent ban for that kind of language on this fine fine forum! ;p

LeedsFan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1042
  • Last login:January 17, 2021, 06:14:23 am
What I don't understand is who is this Aaron guy to say what happens with Mame etc? The source is freely available for people to do what they want with it (if you know what you're doing that is). And people do exactly that. Remember when Cave recently asked for all their drivers to be taken out of one of the latest updates? So there was never any "officially" released version of Mame with these drivers but if you know where to go you can get a version with them all in. Anyone can do anything with it and do their own thing. It just means it will get splintered with no single "official" release available. Besides... anything worth emulating has already been done.

LeedsFan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1042
  • Last login:January 17, 2021, 06:14:23 am
.

Vigo

  • the Scourage of Carpathia
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+24)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6417
  • Last login:June 25, 2025, 03:09:16 pm
Haze, If you feel so strongly about what is happening, then consult a lawyer. I have a very strong feeling that if this was taken into litigation, Aaron would fall on the sword over this. In essence he is taking others people's work, and giving to a 3rd party to profit off of. Unless all contributors have to sign a waiver of their work, I don't know in what world Aaron's decision can be considered legal. One C&D Letter from an attorney might change his tune.

Mikezilla

  • I have a hairy back and everything!
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1676
  • Last login:July 18, 2017, 07:06:56 pm
  • I can't see the picture darn it!!!
Its good to know Xiaou2 is still around...  ::)
Pictures are overrated anyway.

Vigo

  • the Scourage of Carpathia
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+24)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6417
  • Last login:June 25, 2025, 03:09:16 pm
Some things never change.  :lol

Santoro

  • Purveyor of Shiny Arcade Goodness
  • Santoro
  • Trade Count: (+32)
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3055
  • Last login:July 14, 2025, 03:43:29 pm
  • Boycott Quarters!!!
    • ArcadeReplay!
Re: "MAMEdev are *aggressively* trying to move to a commercial license" What???
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2013, 07:16:06 pm »
Been busy and just heard about all this.  I don't like where it's going.

*Subscribe*  in case more news pops up.