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Author Topic: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver  (Read 10630 times)

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adder

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2013, 09:20:59 pm »
Quote from: rCadeGaming
And game speed is still tied to refresh rate?  I'm guessing that soundsync is causing that.

what i end up with is, whichever game i am running, the gameplay speed changes (i assume the time each game frame is displayed) to match the refresh rate of the custom mode/res i am using. also the sound/music speed is changed (pitch changed).
everything remains perfectly smooth though (the gfx scrolling/sprites movement, etc), and there are no sound issues (stuttering, etc).. i do need to turn on waitvsync though, or i get the typical tearing problems people complain about

i do appreciate its hardly the ideal way of doing things though, and no doubt groovymame is a better option (ie. allowing games to run at their original speed, but without the need of having to manually set up potentially hundreds of modelines to cope with all of the many different mame game refresh rates).

in a future project i may get into groovymame. im the first to admit, i'd be a fool not too ;D

thanks for the tips about autofire ideas by the way. i did write a much longer reply earlier and then lost everything! hence the very short previous post (its 2:20am here)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 09:26:25 pm by jadder »

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2013, 09:52:35 pm »
Yeah, I get that for what you're looking for it already works very well for you as is.  I'm just thinking that there might be something simple that could stop some of your games from running at the wrong speed.  Something that wouldn't be much work.

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2013, 05:06:48 pm »
Hi,

I did a test on a new modeline for everything above x241 up to x288 in mame.ini, and forced the refresh rate to ~48.3Hz. I also disabled interlace in mame.ini.
I got this value (48.3Hz) playing with ArcadeOSD and 400x288 resolution (unlocking dotclock and reducing the frequency on the vertical geometry so that the image became centered vertically). This res is the one that GroovyMAME chooses for pacman and mspacman.

Here are de crt custom ranges in mame.ini:
crt_range0                15376-16462, 48.30-65.00, 2.748, 5.496, 8.244, 0.061, 0.182, 1.552, 0, 0, 192, 224, 0, 0
crt_range1                15376-16462, 48.30-65.00, 2.245, 4.489, 7.482, 0.061, 0.182, 1.552, 0, 0, 225, 240, 0, 0
crt_range2                15376-16462, 48.30-48.30, 2.934, 4.890, 7.824, 0.065, 0.194, 1.619, 0, 0, 241, 288, 0, 0

This way I get x240@60Hz, x480@60Hz and 400x288@48 fitting perfectly in the screen.

Most vertical games are using 256 or 288 resolutions. Pacman fits perfectly on screen in 400x288, and I got some black vertical borders for 256 games (Commando, Dkong, etc.).
For games that have no scrolling (pac-man, dkong, etc.), I see no problem. For scrolling games I notice some tearing.

Offcourse, r-type doesn't run at it's original refresh rate, and that's visible (tearing), but it's an option between seeing the whole game (with black vertical borders) or get a not centered and over scanned game.
Dkong is resized to 256, if I permit higher refresh rates for 256 resolutions, I'm getting overscan, I can only see Mario's head when starting (for this game, overscan is not an option).
Don't have problems with sound, but I can notice a non-smooth scrolling (tearing) on R-Type and Pac-Mania.
If I set syncrefresh to 1, the games become very slow... so it's not an option.

Attached some examples of what I described. The only edited modeline is 640x288 (for Maximus Arcade).

Calamity, is there a way of minimizing the tearing besides syncrefresh?

What do you all think is better? This way or interlacing everything above 240 (to x480)?

Best

PS: I think it's better than the 1st how-to

« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 05:09:12 pm by rjpe »

rCadeGaming

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2013, 08:52:06 pm »
I did a test on a new modeline for everything above x241 up to x288 in mame.ini, and forced the refresh rate to ~48.3Hz. I also disabled interlace in mame.ini.
I got this value (48.3Hz) playing with ArcadeOSD and 400x288 resolution (unlocking dotclock and reducing the frequency on the vertical geometry so that the image became centered vertically)

You don't always adjust refresh rate to adjust vertical centering, right?  Vertical centering can be better adjusted by removing lines from the vertical back porch and adding back the same number of lines to the vertical front porch, and vice versa.  This method can be used to adjust vertical centering without any effect on refresh rate.

If you're already aware of all this, and you had actually reached the limit of adjustment with that method, you might be able to get a little more out of it by increasing the total lines (v total).  Doing that will also drive down refresh rate, but you can counteract that by raising horizontal scan rate through adjustment of the dot clock.  Of course, raising horizontal scan rate can only be taken so far before you start losing sync, and may affect horizontal size, which can be counteracted by adjusting total horizontal width (h total).

Here's another thought, I bet you have more vertical position adjustment available via front/back porch changes with your 60Hz modelines.  Try changing vertical position in the service menu to best fit your 288 line modeline, then bring the others back in line with front/back porch changes.

Ultimately, you'll never get a 288 line modeline all the way up to 60Hz, but I bet you can do a bit better than 48.3Hz while maintaining your vertical centering.

The larger problem is that you're using one modeline for way too large of a range of vertical resolutions.  Why not add two 256p modes?  One at 55Hz for R-Type and one at 60Hz for commando, Donkey Kong, etc.  This will allow you to use syncrefresh with all of your 256p games.

If you have trouble getting 256 lines up to 60Hz, try doing it with the fewest number of total lines and highest horizontal scan rate as possible.

Keep the 288 line modeline for games that actually need 288 lines, and bring up refresh rate as much as you can.  With this modeline, maybe try waitvsync instead of syncrefresh to fix the tearing without linking game speed to refresh rate.

rjpe

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2013, 06:23:48 pm »
I did a test on a new modeline for everything above x241 up to x288 in mame.ini, and forced the refresh rate to ~48.3Hz. I also disabled interlace in mame.ini.
I got this value (48.3Hz) playing with ArcadeOSD and 400x288 resolution (unlocking dotclock and reducing the frequency on the vertical geometry so that the image became centered vertically)

You don't always adjust refresh rate to adjust vertical centering, right?  Vertical centering can be better adjusted by removing lines from the vertical back porch and adding back the same number of lines to the vertical front porch, and vice versa.  This method can be used to adjust vertical centering without any effect on refresh rate.

If you're already aware of all this, and you had actually reached the limit of adjustment with that method, you might be able to get a little more out of it by increasing the total lines (v total).  Doing that will also drive down refresh rate, but you can counteract that by raising horizontal scan rate through adjustment of the dot clock.  Of course, raising horizontal scan rate can only be taken so far before you start losing sync, and may affect horizontal size, which can be counteracted by adjusting total horizontal width (h total).

Here's another thought, I bet you have more vertical position adjustment available via front/back porch changes with your 60Hz modelines.  Try changing vertical position in the service menu to best fit your 288 line modeline, then bring the others back in line with front/back porch changes.

Ultimately, you'll never get a 288 line modeline all the way up to 60Hz, but I bet you can do a bit better than 48.3Hz while maintaining your vertical centering.

The larger problem is that you're using one modeline for way too large of a range of vertical resolutions.  Why not add two 256p modes?  One at 55Hz for R-Type and one at 60Hz for commando, Donkey Kong, etc.  This will allow you to use syncrefresh with all of your 256p games.

If you have trouble getting 256 lines up to 60Hz, try doing it with the fewest number of total lines and highest horizontal scan rate as possible.

Keep the 288 line modeline for games that actually need 288 lines, and bring up refresh rate as much as you can.  With this modeline, maybe try waitvsync instead of syncrefresh to fix the tearing without linking game speed to refresh rate.

rCadeGaming,
Thanks for these excellent tips!

I didn't have much time to test everything, I'll try to answer all suggestions next Sunday (time is really an issue for me :-) )

I created a new modeline for x256, here are the 4 modelines in my mame.ini
crt_range0                15376-16462, 48.30-65.00, 2.748, 5.496, 8.244, 0.061, 0.182, 1.552, 0, 0, 192, 224, 0, 0
crt_range1                15376-16462, 48.30-65.00, 2.245, 4.489, 7.482, 0.061, 0.182, 1.552, 0, 0, 225, 240, 0, 0
crt_range2                15376-16462, 58.00-65.00, 1.028, 6.170, 6.170, 0.061, 0.182, 1.335, 0, 0, 241, 256, 0, 0
crt_range3                15376-16462, 48.30-48.30, 2.934, 4.890, 7.824, 0.065, 0.194, 1.619, 0, 0, 257, 288, 0, 0

With x256, commando, dkong, 194x and rtype are with a better refresh (~60Hz), with acceptable vertical overscan (Mario always appears complete in x256, only High-Scores and Credits cut in half, no problem with that, same for commando and 194x, rtype will be not centered in 55Hz, in 58Hz I see half of the word "beam", looks good). So, one more battle won! I think it's better like this than with x288 (big vertical black borders).

I tried changing waitvsync, but I didn't notice any difference.
Changing refreshspeed from 2.0 to 1.0 improved the speed for rtype (was arround 103% and now is 100% with a refresh of 58Hz).
Pac-Mania still doesn't look to fluid... but it's 48.30Hz... at least it's progressive and fits the whole screen. Pac-Man and Ms. Pac-Man look great.

Last time I arranged the values for x288 I didn't have any possibility of increasing the frequency (48Hz is the refresh that allows me to center x288),  but I'll go back again to see if I did try what you suggest (I think so, but I'll do it again).

I'll do some more testing Sunday (I hope!) and post some results and screenshots.

Just a thought of mine: I remember playing all MAME games in 1998 (when I started our hobby) in 640x480, on a 15'' CRT Monitor, and a PS/2 keyboard.  ;D I was happy then!  :laugh2:
Never thought I could improve so much the Arcade experience like today, thanks to the 15KHz tweaks and MAME developers (thanks Calamity and SailorSat, and all guys from mamedev), and all help from this Forum.

 :cheers:

rCadeGaming

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2013, 11:01:11 pm »
No prob.

rtype will be not centered in 55Hz

I think you still need to work on your control of vertical centering.  If done properly, centering 256p@55Hz should be easier to center than 256@60Hz, because you have more total lines to work with at a lower refresh rate.

I tried changing waitvsync, but I didn't notice any difference.

Did you turn off syncrefresh.  Idk, I'm not as sure on this point as the others.

Just a thought of mine: I remember playing all MAME games in 1998 (when I started our hobby) in 640x480, on a 15'' CRT Monitor, and a PS/2 keyboard.  ;D I was happy then!  :laugh2:
Never thought I could improve so much the Arcade experience like today, thanks to the 15KHz tweaks and MAME developers (thanks Calamity and SailorSat, and all guys from mamedev), and all help from this Forum.

Cheers to that!  :cheers:

You know I've been working on this stuff and planning my cabinet for about seven years?  We were all newbies at the beginning.  If I had carried out my original plan for a cabinet it would have been a CRAPMAME contender.  Scaled crap on a PC monitor, not even decased, in a particle board box with an X-arcade strapped to it.

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2013, 10:30:45 am »
No prob.

Still with no time...  :) maybe in a few weeks.

I think you still need to work on your control of vertical centering.  If done properly, centering 256p@55Hz should be easier to center than 256@60Hz, because you have more total lines to work with at a lower refresh rate.

Not quite... I tried to play a little with ArcadeOSD with no luck.

Did you turn off syncrefresh.  Idk, I'm not as sure on this point as the others.
yep
Just a thought of mine: I remember playing all MAME games in 1998 (when I started our hobby) in 640x480, on a 15'' CRT Monitor, and a PS/2 keyboard.  ;D I was happy then!  :laugh2:
Never thought I could improve so much the Arcade experience like today, thanks to the 15KHz tweaks and MAME developers (thanks Calamity and SailorSat, and all guys from mamedev), and all help from this Forum.

Cheers to that!  :cheers:

You know I've been working on this stuff and planning my cabinet for about seven years?  We were all newbies at the beginning.  If I had carried out my original plan for a cabinet it would have been a CRAPMAME contender.  Scaled crap on a PC monitor, not even decased, in a particle board box with an X-arcade strapped to it.

I didn't want to discuss my thoughts (it's not the scope of this thread, it was just a thought), but let's go.
7 years is a long time... I've been planning a cabinet since 1998 (only 15 years), had more time but less money and no space (parents house)!
I played pac-man for the first time (in the original cabinet) in 1982 (I was 7 years old). Only had strength and time in 2010/2011 to start something.

Did you check my project? It has a X-Arcade and a cased TV... I bet you didn't notice that. Did you? I'm aware of the X-Arcade and Cased Monitors conversation... and... I really don't care. The only thing I agree with the "Arcade Purists" is that a 15Khz with original resolutions gives better Arcade experience than 31Khz or LCD monitors, and for that I really prefer SCART TV's because they are almost free (Arcade Monitors are too expensive). I'm getting kind of old... so believe me, I really don't care if I'm going against the Arcade Purists standards.  :)

The real "magic" is MAME! Everything around MAME are details. MAME is the reason why most people are building cabinets.

The real purists will buy a Pac-Man cabinet, that only runs Pac-man (I would do that, if I had the money, time and space!).

X-Arcade is a great product. Does everyone that wants a close Arcade experience needs to became a carpenter and build a controller from scratch?... I don't think so. I'm not really an "handy" guy, It's a miracle I'm building cabinets!  :laugh2: Who buys a X-Arcade to play MAME will be really happy (it's less expensive than building a similar controller from scratch, if you don't have wood tools and just want to play the retro-games).
My first thought was buying an X-Arcade to use on the living room... but then... I thought I could use it on a cabinet... details...  ;)

My X-Arcade is a little bit changed (the joysticks and buttons are different and better, Sanwa), and with the black vinyl is not so visible that it's a Tankstick.
The cased TV... looks great with a bezel. You can't see it's a TV. It's easier to transport and replace with another, and less dangerous...

I think we don't need to discuss this anymore (this thread is really about GroovyMAME and SCART TV's, not anything else).

In a few weeks (I'll might be less far from my cabinet) I'll try to post the current images of the games.
I think the games are looking great!  :applaud:

 :cheers:
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 01:40:29 pm by rjpe »

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2013, 05:24:56 pm »
I think we don't need to discuss this anymore (this thread is really about GroovyMAME and SCART TV's, not anything else).

I understand you don't want to derail the thread, but you can't throw all that out there and then say I can't respond.

I didn't mean to be offensive.  I was just trying to sympathize with your original comment about how far you've come in this hobby by saying that I share a similar experience.

I apologize that I didn't read your blog and see that my comments about decasing and X-arcades could sound harsh.

As for the monitor, I was really focusing more on how I was going to settled for scaled graphics on a high-res pc monitor, rather than resolutions like we are using now, as the main problem.  The decasing thing was meant as a minor detail.

As for the X-Arcade, they really are awful.  Sorry.  It's good that you replaced the sticks and buttons, because they come with Chinese knock-offs of Happ parts that aren't that great to begin with, but then you're still using their button layout, which is pretty terrible too.  Their encoder is pretty poor as well.  It's not really worth it to try and mod those things, because there's nothing to them that's worth saving.  If you can't make your own panel (which doesn't seem to be the case, since you built the cabinet), there are better commercial options available.

If you're going through so much trouble to fine tune the video on this cabinet, why not apply the same attention to detail to other aspects?  A control panel just sitting on a shelf kind of sticks out like a sore thumb, and sometimes your gaming experience can be limited by the weakest link, like a bad button layout.  It's kind of a bottleneck.
 
It's like you said, "Never thought I could improve so much the Arcade experience."  It sounds like you didn't realize how big of an improvement you could make with the video.  You may find the same thing with the control panel.  I started with the same layout, and I can tell you that using a better one has made a world of difference.

rjpe

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2013, 05:03:15 am »
We don't agree on the X-Arcade... no problem with that. I actually built the cabinet arround it.
I thought replacing it with my own built... but I decided to keep it for historical reasons. Me and the kids are used to the buttons layout.
Next two cabinets will have my own design.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2


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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2013, 04:40:27 pm »
Guys,

The TV died yesterday... funny noise... and then. Ploft! RIP Crown TV! The CRT still powers up, but the SCART cannot display 15Khz anymore, only a scrambling image. Some component of the chassis might have burnt. I'll try to arrange someone to fix it, if there is a possibility (the image was really great!)
Don't know if I pushed it too much (maybe... ), it was already doing some weird sound since two weeks ago.

Switched back to Beko TV, and configured VMMaker again.
Funny thing is, the learning curve got in this thread helped me configuring the Beko TV quickly.

Everything looks interlaced (digital processing that I can not disable), but I get original refresh rates with everything centered! Even R-Type and Mortal Kombat. x288 res look horrible, I changed the modeline to do maximum x256.
Going to open a new thread related with the BEKO setup, I'll be back to this one if I can fix the old Crown TV.

Thanks for the precious help from the members of this forum, rCadeGaming and jadder for the inputs and ideas, and offcourse to Calamity.

 :cheers:




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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #50 on: October 07, 2013, 04:46:09 pm »
That's a shame.  It could have been from pushing it to the limits of the scan rates it could handle, but it could have just as easily been simply due to age.  Are there any obvious signs of damage inside, like burned spots or leaking capacitors?

Could you get a cheap replacement or is it a rare model?


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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #51 on: October 07, 2013, 04:58:12 pm »
bad luck there sorry to hear
im wondering if i damaged my tv also during my experiments with modelines where i pushed up the scan rate really high on many occasions (im sure i smelt burning one time when messing with modelines, crazy as that sounds...) what i get now sometimes is a jumpy picture on the vertical.
its annoying as i dont have any spare tv's and there dont seem to be many in my area these days, so i guess im stuck with it
ps. i did used to use a couple of beko tv's in the past but didnt like them as they wouldnt display 240 vertical lines, and could not handle scan rates much above 16khz.. but that said i expect bekos use all sorts of different chassis, so perhaps yours isnt as bad as mine (i believe i was using the 12.7 chassis)

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2013, 05:05:31 pm »
I can imagine the TV would be under a lot more strain when trying to do the yoko resolutions you guys are going for, with very high horizontal scan rates and very low vertical scan rates, 288 visible lines, etc.  The other thing is that the computer will always put out 31kHz horizontal scan rate while booting, which these TV's definitely do not like.  You could make sure not to have the TV on during that time period just to be safe.

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2013, 05:24:08 pm »
I can imagine the TV would be under a lot more strain when trying to do the yoko resolutions you guys are going for, with very high horizontal scan rates and very low vertical scan rates, 288 visible lines, etc.  The other thing is that the computer will always put out 31kHz horizontal scan rate while booting, which these TV's definitely do not like.  You could make sure not to have the TV on during that time period just to be safe.

haha yea, ive definately taken my tv to places where it really didnt expect to go :P
hmm, i didnt realise about probably shouldnt turn tv on until windows has booted up... i will start doing that then (perhaps im a bit late though).. will certainly do it with the next tv i get anyway, if i find another one that is

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2013, 06:01:03 pm »
My BEKO TV has a c7/c8 chasis.
I can get all 240 lines in 60Hz and 256Hz in 50Hz (it has 2 different geometry menus).
It also filters the 31Khz Bios and Windows boots signals (shows a blank screen saying AV1 RGB while booting).

The only problem is that everything looks interlaced (no visible scanlines).

A manual can be found here: http://www.eserviceinfo.com/downloadsm/36099/BEKO_.html

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2013, 06:10:26 pm »
The lack of scanlines doesn't mean that it's displaying interlaced resolutions, it's just because it's old and has a coarse dot pitch and/or poor focus and/or poor convergence.  This just means it simply doesn't have a sharp enough picture to draw each line thin enough that there are black spaces in between.  Dot pitch is fixed.  If possible, adjusting the focus or convergence may improve things (the latter is much more difficult).

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2013, 06:28:05 pm »
funny i noticed that myself recently also, that adjusting my focus knob visibly removed the scanlines (depending on how far i put it out of focus, the scanlines went from black, to grey, to gone)
needless to say, i ended up setting it so the scanlines were as black/visible as possible :)

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2013, 07:02:59 pm »
I do I do that?
there is no option on the regular menu or service menu named focus... I've to do it on the chassis?

Attached my setup files, and some snaps.

Some switchres examples:

C:\GroovyMame64>groovymame64_0149.014b.exe pacman

SwitchRes: [pacman] (1) vertical (224x288@60.61)->(512x239@60.61)
Average speed: 100.00% (5 seconds)

C:\GroovyMame64>groovymame64_0149.014b.exe rtype

SwitchRes: [rtype] (1) horizontal (384x256@55.02)->(768x256@55.02)
Average speed: 99.32% (12 seconds)

C:\GroovyMame64>groovymame64_0149.014b.exe blktiger

SwitchRes: [blktiger] (1) horizontal (256x224@60.00)->(512x224@60.00)
Average speed: 99.92% (9 seconds)

C:\GroovyMame64>groovymame64_0149.014b.exe boblbobl

SwitchRes: [boblbobl] (1) horizontal (256x224@59.19)->(512x224@59.19)
Average speed: 99.92% (17 seconds)

C:\GroovyMame64>groovymame64_0149.014b.exe goldnaxe

SwitchRes: [goldnaxe] (1) horizontal (320x224@60.05)->(640x224@60.05)
317-0123a.bin NO GOOD DUMP KNOWN
WARNING: the game might not run correctly.
Average speed: 100.04% (23 seconds)

C:\GroovyMame64>groovymame64_0149.014b.exe pacmania

SwitchRes: [pacmania] (1) vertical (224x288@60.61)->(512x239@60.61)
Average speed: 99.94% (21 seconds)

C:\GroovyMame64>groovymame64_0149.014b.exe mk

SwitchRes: [mk] (1) horizontal (399x253@54.82)->(400x256@54.82)

SwitchRes: [mk] (1) horizontal (400x254@54.71)->(400x256@54.71)
Average speed: 99.96% (36 seconds)

C:\GroovyMame64>groovymame64_0149.014b.exe ddragon

SwitchRes: [ddragon] (1) horizontal (256x240@57.44)->(512x240@57.44)
Average speed: 99.92% (41 seconds)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 07:13:45 pm by rjpe »

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2013, 07:40:04 pm »
i like the pics, lookin good

to adjust the focus you need to get to your chassis and adjust the focus control on your flyback transformer (also known as the line output power transformer, or LOPT)

note: along with the focus knob there is also a second knob you can adjust called 'screen' which is a kind of 'overall blackness/brightness'

btw i usually let a tv warm up for at least 15 mins before adjusting the focus (as starting from cold i find with older tv's the picture takes a while to focus/settle in so to speak)

pic of what the LOPT looks like:


« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 07:44:07 pm by jadder »

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2013, 08:05:16 pm »
Focus can sometimes be found in the service menu or even the user menu.  If not, you have to adjust it according to jadder's instructions.  I would leave the screen control alone though.  I don't know if all flybacks are like this, but mine also has the focus adjustment on top and screen adjustment on bottom as pictured.

How old is the BEKO?  It's possible it's too new and is scaling everything up to 480p.

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #60 on: October 07, 2013, 08:08:41 pm »
I bought this BEKO in end of 2009, brand new (at a retail store).
Yep, probably is scaling everything to 480p... what would be the best setup then?

Under service menu, I found a parameter named "Screen" under "Screen adjustment", was 176, set it to 0 and the image is less brighter (better for gamming). No parameter named focus...
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 08:15:21 pm by rjpe »

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2013, 09:31:35 pm »
I don't think the best setup includes that TV.  I mean after all the work you've done to use native resolutions, don't let it die.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 10:56:06 pm by rCadeGaming »

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #62 on: October 08, 2013, 07:16:38 am »
I suspected that...  :banghead:
Going again Scart-Hunting...

All TV experts from BYOAC said or say that it might be a 100Hz chassis...
But, after testing GroovyMame + VMMaker + CRT Emu Driver with the original resolutions, It doesn't seem that bad!
I can actually see the original resolutions and the original refresh, just can't see the scanlines.
So, maybe it's not scaling to 480p... How can we tell that it's scaling?

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #63 on: October 08, 2013, 08:28:42 pm »
Feed it 480p (31kHz).  If it can display it, it's scaling. 

If you bought in 2009, I'm pretty sure it is anyway though.  Keep in mind that scaling causes lag too.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 01:59:29 pm by rCadeGaming »

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #64 on: October 09, 2013, 01:51:09 pm »
Hi rjpe,

I'm really sorry to hear about your TV breaking. But if you still get a picture in there, although scrambled, then I'd say chances are it's possible to fix it.

In the meanwhile, I remind this BEKO of yours from here: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=114152.0

It would be interesting to test it again, because at the time of that thread, GroovyMAME was not still capable of forcing everything to be interlaced. As a matter of fact, if I remind right this feature was introduced at your request! You can do this easily like this:

monitor custom
crt_range0    15625-15900, 49.5-62, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 0, 0, 448, 576

This way, 224p would be automatically scaled (integer) to 448i, 240p to 480, 256p to 512i, etc.

By looking at its manual, this BEKO doesn't seem a 100 Hz TV. It has some video processing however, and this is probably getting fooled by our progressive signals which it is not expecting from the SCART. But interlaced signals should be fine.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #65 on: October 09, 2013, 02:05:07 pm »
Hi rjpe,

I'm really sorry to hear about your TV breaking. But if you still get a picture in there, although scrambled, then I'd say chances are it's possible to fix it.

In the meanwhile, I remind this BEKO of yours from here: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=114152.0

It would be interesting to test it again, because at the time of that thread, GroovyMAME was not still capable of forcing everything to be interlaced. As a matter of fact, if I remind right this feature was introduced at your request! You can do this easily like this:

monitor custom
crt_range0    15625-15900, 49.5-62, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 0, 0, 448, 576

This way, 224p would be automatically scaled (integer) to 448i, 240p to 480, 256p to 512i, etc.

By looking at its manual, this BEKO doesn't seem a 100 Hz TV. It has some video processing however, and this is probably getting fooled by our progressive signals which it is not expecting from the SCART. But interlaced signals should be fine.

Calamity, these are great news!!!! I'll try to test this config today, and will give you feedback asap.
Best!

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #66 on: October 09, 2013, 02:42:28 pm »
Not trying be a downer, but why use interlace for everything?  You'll lose your scan lines.  Don't you want it looking great after putting all this work into it? 

Is another SCART TV that tough to find?  I see people showing them off all the time on the shmups forum.

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #67 on: October 09, 2013, 08:10:52 pm »
Quote from: rCadeGaming
.....the computer will always put out 31kHz horizontal scan rate while booting, which these TV's definitely do not like.  You could make sure not to have the TV on during that time period just to be safe.

i've been thinking about this Rob i think im gonna find some little application or dos command i can put in my windows startup folder to make a system BEEP sound (via the pc mainboard speaker), so that i wont turn on my tv until i hear the beep (which would indicate windows desktop has loaded).
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 08:45:32 pm by jadder »

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #68 on: October 09, 2013, 10:00:09 pm »
You should be able to enable a sound that plays in Windows that plays when it loads.  I think it's usually on by default, and you could change it to whatever you'd like.  Is the problem that you're using the TV's speakers, hence the need for the sound to come from the motherboard speaker?

I'm working on using an Arduino to automate a lot of things, like turning things on once the front-end has loaded, and back off when shutting down.

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #69 on: October 09, 2013, 10:26:18 pm »
im not using the tv speakers as i always find them to be a bit weak for me. im using a little lepai lp-2020a+ amplifier (highly recommended) and speakers so i can get some nice over the top bass going...   i just thought the mainboard beep might be better as it's good and clear and i would still hear it if eg. ive forgotten to turn on my amplifier

that Arduino stuff is interesting, im sure im not the only one who's interested in reading your results with that

ps. your crt tv vertical size change (using eg. a pot) is quite a challenge, bet thats tough to pull off (again, interested in how you get on with that... :))

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #70 on: October 09, 2013, 10:31:43 pm »
Agreed, the TV speakers are not a good option.

You could use one of the 5V rails from the PC power supply to trigger a relay controlling power to the amp.

As for the Arduino stuff, I'm going to need some time on that.

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2013, 08:18:31 am »
Not trying be a downer, but why use interlace for everything?  You'll lose your scan lines.  Don't you want it looking great after putting all this work into it?

Just trying to get the best out of that specific TV, for the sake of science. He says it flickers badly with progressive modes, but it doesn't with interlaced ones. So some sort of processing is going on that affects how the alternate fields are presented.

Quote
Is another SCART TV that tough to find?  I see people showing them off all the time on the shmups forum.

They are easy to find still nowadays.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #72 on: October 10, 2013, 10:24:01 am »
Not trying be a downer, but why use interlace for everything?  You'll lose your scan lines.  Don't you want it looking great after putting all this work into it?

Just trying to get the best out of that specific TV, for the sake of science. He says it flickers badly with progressive modes, but it doesn't with interlaced ones. So some sort of processing is going on that affects how the alternate fields are presented.

And for the sake of science, I'll test it today!  :) I'll post the results later.

Quote
Is another SCART TV that tough to find?  I see people showing them off all the time on the shmups forum.

They are easy to find still nowadays.

They are easy to find, but I'm focused on a few specs... I'm trying to find a few specific 4:3 28'' models from Grundig and Sony, and if possible, a SONY PVM (this last not so easy to find). Here it's easier to find 16:9 models than the 4:3 ones.



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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #73 on: October 10, 2013, 11:19:30 am »
Yeah, you definitely don't 16:9, haha.  Is 28" a common size there?  In the US we have 27", 32", and maybe 30" sometimes.  Never heard of 28".

Sony PVM's are super-nice by all accounts, provided you get a 15kHz one, but they're more expensive, and I don't think I've seen them larger than 20".

He says it flickers badly with progressive modes, but it doesn't with interlaced ones. So some sort of processing is going on that affects how the alternate fields are presented.

I'm pretty sure the lack of flickering with interlaced modes is because it's upscaling anything that's 15kHz, maybe always to 480p.  Given how new the TV is, I doubt it can display below 31kHz.  I don't have any explanation for why progressive modes would appear to flicker.

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #74 on: October 10, 2013, 11:30:54 am »
Yeah, you definitely don't 16:9, haha.  Is 28" a common size there?  In the US we have 27", 32", and maybe 30" sometimes.  Never heard of 28".

Sony PVM's are super-nice by all accounts, provided you get a 15kHz one, but they're more expensive, and I don't think I've seen them larger than 20".

He says it flickers badly with progressive modes, but it doesn't with interlaced ones. So some sort of processing is going on that affects how the alternate fields are presented.

I'm pretty sure the lack of flickering with interlaced modes is because it's upscaling anything that's 15kHz, maybe always to 480p.  Given how new the TV is, I doubt it can display below 31kHz.  I don't have any explanation for why progressive modes would appear to flicker.

Yep, 70 cm diagonals (28 inches), and 68cm (27 inches). My BEKO model is named DPM28 (28 inches).

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #75 on: October 10, 2013, 12:00:57 pm »
Just realized I messed up the post...

Just wanted to say that 16:9 is good... depends on the ocasion... not for playing MAME!  ;D
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 01:10:08 pm by rjpe »

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #76 on: October 10, 2013, 12:38:39 pm »
Haha, well yeah.  TV, movies, modern games, good.  MAME?  No bueno.  Unless you're playing Darius or X-men or something...

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #77 on: October 10, 2013, 06:19:01 pm »
Calamity,

that modeline worked G-R-E-A-T!

monitor custom
crt_range0    15625-15900, 49.5-62, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 0, 0, 448, 576

 :applaud:

All games look more authentic! For this TV I never seen better classic games images like today.

rCadeGaming, I think that it's not scaling everything to 480p. The interlaced modes look better on this TV than on any other TV I tested with MAME.
I'll try to take a few good snapshots during the weekend, and pass the resulted view.

Calamity, do you need some kind of logs or something?

Thanks Guys!



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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #78 on: October 10, 2013, 06:34:24 pm »
rCadeGaming, I think that it's not scaling everything to 480p. The interlaced modes look better on this TV than on any other TV I tested with MAME.

That's not evidence that it isn't scaling.  It could looks so good because it's scaling.  There's no interlace flickering due to being upscaled to progressive.  The image is also probably sharper because it's newer tube with a fine dot pitch.

If you feed 15kHz progressive to a TV that new and you don't see scanlines, that's pretty clear evidence that it's scaling it.  That means it can display 31kHz.  How new it is also suggests that it would be able to display 31kHz.  It is theoretically possible that a CRT TV could be built to display both 15kHz and 31kHz, but no one has been able to confirm the existence of such a TV so far, and it doesn't make sense why any manufacturer would make one.  It is cheaper to build a set that's 15kHz-only or 31kHz-only, and sub-480-line sources were considered outdated by the time 31kHz TV's entered the market.

Long story short, it's highly likely that it's upscaling any kind 15kHz source to 31kHz so it can display it.

Look, there's no problem if you like what you see, but don't kid yourself about what's happening behind the scenes.

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Re: Possible Easy Setup for PAL/NTSC SCART TV's with CRT Emu Driver
« Reply #79 on: October 11, 2013, 02:45:11 pm »
Thanks for testing this rjpe. It'd be nice to have some close-up pics of your screen to get an idea of how it's performing.

@rCadeGaming, if you look at the BEKO service manual posted by rjpe, it's not clear that it's actually scaling to 31 kHz, although definitely I may be wrong because I can't understand the technical details in it. It has an IC named VCT 49xxI (http://elektrotanya.com/files/forum/2013/03/VCT49xyl%20UOC.pdf) that shows something called "Panorama Scaler" inside its diagram, possibly responsible for the feature reported as "Nonlinear horizontal scaling “panorama vision”", which sounds like the special zoom mode you're probably familiar with that's typical from the Philips Pixel Plus TVs (both CRT and LCD), that converts 4:3 to 16:9 non-linearly so proportions are not affected in the center of the screen. But aside from that, I don't see any deinterlacer in there... and that's odd because I'd say the flicker artifact he's seeing with progressive modes may have to do with some deinterlacing mechanism, that expects interlaced signals as input, as it's the normal case with RGB signals from PAL/NTSC material. And again, deinterlacing would point to 31kHz, but not necessarily 480p, it can be perfectly 480p@60 / 576p@50 and whatever in the middle. Finally, in the hypotethical case that the chassis works at 31kHz internally, that doesn't necessarily mean that it can accept 31kHz signals as input.



Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi