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Author Topic: 640x480p@200Hz in SCART TV and monitor specs  (Read 4465 times)

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rjpe

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640x480p@200Hz in SCART TV and monitor specs
« on: August 29, 2011, 06:58:23 am »
Hi,

I've been struggling with my odd SCART TV since I've started my project.
I bought a brand new one DPM 28'' (BEKO Chasis C7/C8) in the end of 2009, and I couldn't get progressive modes like 640x288p.
I've tested it with Soft15Khz, ArcadeVGA version 1 and 2, and the best I resolutions I could get  was 640x480 or 720x480 interlaced.
All the progressive resolutions looked worse that the interlaced ones (very flashy and trembling).

This weekend I finnaly tested Calamity Drivers for XP64 and groovy mame.

After a few driver uninstalls / installs of the drivers, mame.ini tweaking, I finally got it!

1 - install the Calamity 64 bit driver for new cards (mine is a ATI Radeon HD3650 AGP);
2 - edit VMMaker.ini, choose "CGA" has monitor type, run VMMaker and reboot
3 - in ArcadeOS choose 640x480p@200Hz (native) - this was impressive to see!
4 - in mame.ini, set the monitor to NTSC
5 - in mame.ini, set the resolution0 to 641x480@200Hz - it's really 641, in order to resolve overscan (the XP desktop has overscan for 640x480@200Hz and can't be solved with the geometry settings in the service menu, for 640x480@59 or 640x480@60 there is no overscan).
6 - Activate other tweaks in mame.ini (soundsync, triplebuffer, etc.)

That's it - High Quality image in Maximus Arcade Front-end and amazing resolutions in groovy mame!

My eyes and the eyes of my son thank you all very much for improving the image quality on my cab!
Keep up the good work, advanceMAME has finnaly got a substitute!

If my SCART TV is abble to do this, I'm sure that if I would insert the right monitor specs in VMMaker.ini and regenerate the resolutions, I would have a perfect system!
Can anyone help me configuring the monitor specs?
How do I start? I have the service manual, but I don't see any useful information for this.

Best!



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Re: 640x480p@200Hz in SCART TV and monitor specs
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2011, 07:44:02 am »
Hi rjpe,

I'm curious about that TV, is it possibly a 100Hz model? This is something I still need to test, because what could be happening is that your TV is accepting progressive modes via SCART, but not in the 15Khz range but above, however I have no knowledge of any TV doing that. If that is the case, maybe you could feed it with high resolution signals.

So when you set 641x480@200Hz is it actually a progressive resolution or a de-interlaced one? What I've seen in my system is that when you have a custom resolution of 640x480@60i defined, the refreshes above that (100, 200, etc.) are actually overriden by the one defined (60i Hz), so they're just dummy resolutions. So I bet there is a 641x480 resolution defined as a custom one in your system, probably at 60i Hz too, is it true?

On the other hand, when forcing a resolution with the 'resolution0' param I think GroovyMAME won't be able to recalculate resolutions, so you will be running your games with a fixed resolution (although you can force them run vsynced by using the -syncrefresh param).

Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: 640x480p@200Hz in SCART TV and monitor specs
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2011, 09:27:55 am »
Hi Calamity,

Thanks for the reply. Excelent work with the driver, VMMaker and ArcadeOS.

Sailorsat told me that it might me a 100Hz TV set... because it doesn't like progressive resolutions in Soft15Khz.
The oficial manual/specs state that it does PAL 50Hz and PAL 60Hz.
the service manual can be found at http://www.mediafire.com/?n3ynyqw2mii

Maybe it is doing interlaced at 100Hz. It looks progressive because the image is not trembling anymore, and finaly I can notice the scanlines.  :)

I'm running the games at a fixed resolution because some lower resolutions, like 320x240p, don't work, and the ones that work (like 384x224) look worse (trembling image, lower refresh rate).
I'll try today the -syncrefresh param and see how it looks.

Regarding the resolutions, I have 4 questions:
- How do I remove the modelines that don't work?
- How do I insert new modelines? I generated the modelines through VMMaker with 3 options (CGA, NTSC and PAL), and some of the modelines are exclusive of one type of monitor, but they work at my TV. I notice, through ArcadeOS, that everytime I generate a type of modelines (CGA, NTSC, etc.), the previous modelines disappear (at least in ArcadeOS). VMMaker says that I have about 400 modelines  ???
- If I remove the non-working modelines, groovy mame stops trying to used them, right?
- For last, from where I can start learning how to change the modelines? I still don't understand all those parameters (pixel clock, h-sync and so on...). If I edit, per example, 384x224p refresh, ghouls n ghost would look better in it's original resolution.

Txs in Advance

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Re: 640x480p@200Hz in SCART TV and monitor specs
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2011, 11:52:33 am »
Sailorsat told me that it might me a 100Hz TV set... because it doesn't like progressive resolutions in Soft15Khz.
The oficial manual/specs state that it does PAL 50Hz and PAL 60Hz.
the service manual can be found at http://www.mediafire.com/?n3ynyqw2mii

Maybe it is doing interlaced at 100Hz. It looks progressive because the image is not trembling anymore, and finaly I can notice the scanlines.  :)

I'm running the games at a fixed resolution because some lower resolutions, like 320x240p, don't work, and the ones that work (like 384x224) look worse (trembling image, lower refresh rate).
I'll try today the -syncrefresh param and see how it looks.


100 Hz chassis have de-interlacing mechanisms so there's a chance the signal suffers some re-processing, so interlaced sources are shown as progressive.

However, I think you're seeing a different issue there, related to your card. Radeon HD2000 & HD3000 families are known to have problems supporting low dotclocks, that's why you can't use low resolutions. Edit the 'dotclockmin' value to something like 7.39, both in vmmaker.ini and mame.ini, and recalculate the modelines. That will force resolutions below that dotclock to be double wide, bypassing this problem. The result in Mame is undistinguishable.


Quote
Regarding the resolutions, I have 4 questions:
- How do I remove the modelines that don't work?

Not possible yet. This was conceived as an automatic system so the user shouldn't need to delete resolutions provided the right settings are used.  However I'll end up adding that as is requested all the time.

Quote
- How do I insert new modelines? I generated the modelines through VMMaker with 3 options (CGA, NTSC and PAL), and some of the modelines are exclusive of one type of monitor, but they work at my TV. I notice, through ArcadeOS, that everytime I generate a type of modelines (CGA, NTSC, etc.), the previous modelines disappear (at least in ArcadeOS). VMMaker says that I have about 400 modelines  ???

400 is probably the number of input resolutions, but output modelines is probably 120.

In order to insert new resolutions add them to the ReslList.txt file, using the same format.

Some settings that fit most TVs are these:

   monitor_specs_0 = "15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448"

(This is the same as CGA but with a somewhat higher hfreq allowed). You need to enable "CUSTOM" monitor_type in vmmaker.ini. In mame.ini just copy the line like this:

   monitor_specs_0      15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

Quote
- If I remove the non-working modelines, groovy mame stops trying to used them, right?

Yes, GroovyMAME just uses available video modes.

Quote
- For last, from where I can start learning how to change the modelines? I still don't understand all those parameters (pixel clock, h-sync and so on...). If I edit, per example, 384x224p refresh, ghouls n ghost would look better in it's original resolution.

There many references, but I'll tell you how I learned about this: messing with the Winmodelines program. However, you can probably find Arcade_OSD easier as it allows you to test changes without rebooting.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 11:57:08 am by Calamity »
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

rjpe

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Re: 640x480p@200Hz in SCART TV and monitor specs
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2011, 05:54:54 am »
So when you set 641x480@200Hz is it actually a progressive resolution or a de-interlaced one? What I've seen in my system is that when you have a custom resolution of 640x480@60i defined, the refreshes above that (100, 200, etc.) are actually overriden by the one defined (60i Hz), so they're just dummy resolutions. So I bet there is a 641x480 resolution defined as a custom one in your system, probably at 60i Hz too, is it true?

Yes, the 641x480 is 60i Hz. I saw it listed in Winmodelines.

On the other hand, when forcing a resolution with the 'resolution0' param I think GroovyMAME won't be able to recalculate resolutions, so you will be running your games with a fixed resolution (although you can force them run vsynced by using the -syncrefresh param).

Yes it's true, but for my TV this image looks better like this, when using the original res (the ones that work), the games look awfull... resolutions listed has progressive look interlaced. Like I said before, it is a odd TV  :)

I was already using the -syncrefresh

rjpe

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Re: 640x480p@200Hz in SCART TV and monitor specs
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2011, 06:03:50 am »
Sailorsat told me that it might me a 100Hz TV set... because it doesn't like progressive resolutions in Soft15Khz.
The oficial manual/specs state that it does PAL 50Hz and PAL 60Hz.
the service manual can be found at http://www.mediafire.com/?n3ynyqw2mii

Maybe it is doing interlaced at 100Hz. It looks progressive because the image is not trembling anymore, and finaly I can notice the scanlines.  :)

I'm running the games at a fixed resolution because some lower resolutions, like 320x240p, don't work, and the ones that work (like 384x224) look worse (trembling image, lower refresh rate).
I'll try today the -syncrefresh param and see how it looks.


100 Hz chassis have de-interlacing mechanisms so there's a chance the signal suffers some re-processing, so interlaced sources are shown as progressive.

However, I think you're seeing a different issue there, related to your card. Radeon HD2000 & HD3000 families are known to have problems supporting low dotclocks, that's why you can't use low resolutions. Edit the 'dotclockmin' value to something like 7.39, both in vmmaker.ini and mame.ini, and recalculate the modelines. That will force resolutions below that dotclock to be double wide, bypassing this problem. The result in Mame is undistinguishable.


I changed the dotclockmin to 7.39, and the result is the same. Lower resolutions won't work.
I used the Custom modeline in VMMaker, but I still have overscan on the horizontal geometry (like with the cga option).
Changing VMMaker.ini to MONITOR="NTSC", all the resolutions that work will fit on the screen.

If the TV is 100Hz, how can I generate special modelines to work with this refresh?



Calamity

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Re: 640x480p@200Hz in SCART TV and monitor specs
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2011, 06:30:18 am »
Yes it's true, but for my TV this image looks better like this, when using the original res (the ones that work), the games look awfull... resolutions listed has progressive look interlaced. Like I said before, it is a odd TV  :)

I'd say your TV is de-interlacing the signal, so it actually expects an interlaced mode as input.

Quote
I changed the dotclockmin to 7.39, and the result is the same. Lower resolutions won't work.

I used the Custom modeline in VMMaker, but I still have overscan on the horizontal geometry (like with the cga option).
Changing VMMaker.ini to MONITOR="NTSC", all the resolutions that work will fit on the screen.

If the TV is 100Hz, how can I generate special modelines to work with this refresh?

That's weird because CGA, NTSC and the CUSTOM line I posted used exactly the same horizontal values (2.000, 4.700, 8.000), so that would mean your TV is probably doing its own width adjustments based on the hfreq difference between CGA and NTSC.

You need to find the rules for the modelines that work. Do all progressive modes look bad? Do all interlaced ones look fine? You can even paste here some of the modelines that look bad and good for us to check.

But I suspect that you're going to need interlaced modelines for that TV. That's interesting because we don't have any automatic setting for achieving that yet. Probably you'd need to scale resolutions x2, but doing the height interlaced.

So for instance 384x224@60 would become 768x448@60i.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: 640x480p@200Hz in SCART TV and monitor specs
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2011, 07:14:59 pm »
The only good resolutions are 640x480i (200Hz :) ) and 740x480i@60, using monitor=NTSC.
1024x240i isn't bad, but I don't need it (I'm only using mame, zinc, nebula and pinmame in the cab)
I think you're right, the TV is doing some kind of de-interlacing. When I do a factory reset in the Service Menu, for one second the progressive res looks progressive, and then it's starts trembling (like an interlaced one at 50Hz or worse).

This TV has 3 menus for 60Hz geometry and 3 menus for 50Hz geometry (please see the link I posted before).
I'm only adjusting the geometry on the first one. Maybe the problem is that is does PAL50 and PAL60/NTSC at the same time?

Generating interlaced modelines seems like a great idea.
Do you by any change already have those modelines for a NTSC monitor? That would be great!
Is there some kind of log / verbose for VMMaker, that outputs something interesting, that would help giving more information about the TV?

Right now I'm happy with the result (640x480i@60 through RGB SCART is much better than s-video), but I still want to test other possibilities.

Besides Radeon HD3560, I tested (with the 6.5 driver) two 9250 and Arcade VGA 9250, the behavior is similar.

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Re: 640x480p@200Hz in SCART TV and monitor specs
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2011, 06:18:09 am »
Here is the input/output of VMMaker explained:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=114168.msg1211367#msg1211367

Yes, I had a look at your monitor's manual. That's a digital chassis, that assumes input signal is one of the known standards (analog chassis are more flexible in that regard). So it will probably deal fine with frequencies close to the PAL/NTSC standards but we still have to see what it does with frequencies in the middle (i.e. 55Hz).

I believe some chassis alow the user to disable the de-interlace system in the service menu, have you seen any option for that?

I'll think what can be done for that interlaced modelines. However I've just seen a bug I introduced with my last patches that might explain why NTSC is the only one that works fine for you. Which binary of GroovyMAME have you been running (groovymame32_0143.013b or the test one)?

Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: 640x480p@200Hz in SCART TV and monitor specs
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2011, 09:35:13 am »
Hi Calamity,

Sorry for the late response.
The de-interlace option does not exist... I wish!
The binary I'm using is groovymame64_0143.013 (64 bit version).
What version should I try? a? b?

Another thing - I launched groovymame with -v and it calculates the modeline 704x480@60Hz, the modeline looks very good using ddraw and hwstrech!

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Re: 640x480p@200Hz in SCART TV and monitor specs
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2011, 05:06:19 pm »
groovymame64_0143.013a or groovymame64_0143.013b would be fine and are more up to date.

You can try games like rtype or mk with refresh rates in the middle of PAL/NTSC to see how it behaves.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

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Re: 640x480p@200Hz in SCART TV and monitor specs
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2011, 08:04:09 am »
Ok, I changed the monitor to "custom" in vmmaker.ini, kept the dotclock ratio to 7.39 (Radeon HD).
It generated 100 modelines.
attached goes custom.txt that contains the generated modelines, in the end of the line, if it doesn't work I wrote NOT WORKING, and the behavior (Scrolling or Blank), when testing with ArcadeOS.
All the 640x480 resolutions don't work with this custom specs.

I tried mk and rtype, and they both work (the refresh is awful compared with 704x480i, but it runs).
Attached goes the verbosity of both games in groovymame (mk_detail.txt and rtype_detail.txt).

For the NTSC monitor option, it generated 31 modelines, only one resolution doesn't work (384x240_60 15.77KHz 59.98Hz), the screen goes blank.

Waiting for your feedback.

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Re: 640x480p@200Hz in SCART TV and monitor specs
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2011, 12:24:00 pm »
It seems your screen doesn't like anything above 15.8 kHz, you can edit upper hfreq limit like this:

   monitor_specs_0 = "15625-15800, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448"

I think you can force most of the modelines as interlaced by doing this:

   monitor_specs_0 = "15625-15800, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 200, 448"

... however, this doesn't work for vertical games, I'm seeing, I'll need to check why.

Remind to use same settings for mame.ini/vmmaker.ini.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: 640x480p@200Hz in SCART TV and monitor specs
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2011, 02:56:36 pm »
rtype (704x528@55.02) and mk (704x528@54.82) look now amazing at their original refresh, in an interlaced resolution!

the majority of games I tried syncs to 640x480i@60, wich is Ok!
rthunder looks bad because it choses a progressive modeline.
Still a lot of low res modelines in progressive mode, that look bad in my TV, Modeline.txt attached... tried to switch to interlaced=yes in ArcadeOS, but the screen goes blank - it needs more science for sure :) How can we transform these to interlaced?

Regarding the vertical games, I had the same problem with the standard "CUSTOM" specs - maybe it is pixel clock value (7.39) related?

UPDATE: just noticed that I'm having the horizontal short width problem in XP64 Desktop that happens with CGA option. I need a couple or three more pixels... I can't adjust the geometry to view the full screen, what do I need to change in the specs? In NTSC there is no problem.

Best
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 03:49:01 pm by rjpe »

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Re: 640x480p@200Hz in SCART TV and monitor specs
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2011, 03:50:31 pm »
Those progressive modelines are the product of rotated vertical games resolutions, ideally they should appear as interlaced with those last settings but the modeline generator is not doing the right thing there, I'll need to fix that somehow, yours is the first case it's used that way.

Better use the groovyMAME binary here: http://mario.groovy.org/GroovyMame/WindowsATIDrivers/

It won't fix those issues but will make a better selection of interlaced modes.

Remind to use -v -md 4 params for getting truly verbose logs.

Yeah you need a full modeline recalculation in order to achieve interlaced resolutions.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: 640x480p@200Hz in SCART TV and monitor specs
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2011, 04:13:14 pm »
Txs Calamity,

And regarding the missing lines on the right of the screen (horizontal geometry)? That happened to me with cga, and not with ntsc. It is happening now with the new custom specs.
Do you have a 64bit version of the test binary?

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Re: 640x480p@200Hz in SCART TV and monitor specs
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2011, 04:22:33 pm »
Do you mean horizontal overscan (picture wider than screen)? That can be by modifying these values:

monitor_specs_0 = "15625-15800, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 200, 448"

By increasing them you make the picture narrower. Decrease them and the picture gets wider.

You can use Arcade_OSD to dinamically modify them in a random resolution so you find the right values, then write them down and copy them to the monitor_specs line.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: 640x480p@200Hz in SCART TV and monitor specs
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2011, 01:47:54 pm »
Hey Calamity, it's looking good!

Changed the monitor specs in mame.ini and vmmaker.ini to:
monitor_specs_0 = "15625-15800, 49.50-65.00, 2.500, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 200, 448"

No more overscan. All resolutions working.
It generated one additional modeline (I didn't check with windiff the differences yet!)
Additionally, I chose in vmmaker.ini to generate the INI files, and it solved the problem for vertical games and rolling thunder (now stretching to 640x480i, modeline chosen by vmmaker).

Most games run at 640x480i, but rtype, mk, ddgragon, kungfum have different resolutions and they look great!
pacmania is a little choppy when compared with my old mame64, but acceptable.

Do you want me to send you any kind of output?
I hope that this thread will help others! It has been very educational, thanks a lot.

Calamity

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Re: 640x480p@200Hz in SCART TV and monitor specs
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2011, 04:52:45 pm »
Great news you could get it working. Anyway I will check how to fix the vertical resolutions issue, I'm aware it's not working as it should, theoretically you shouldn't be needing ini files for that when it's fixed.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi