Quad Control Panel Layout Feedback

[uiucphoenix]

I am looking for some feedback on the layout. It is a variation of the Space Paranoids CP (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=39025.0) with no 4-way stick and curved buttons. I am missing any buttons? Do I have too many buttons? I will be running an IPAC4...

[zanna5910]

IMO,  You probably dont need all those admin buttons.

Just my 0.02.  Also, there are many ways to design a CP, use the one that fits your needs.  Some people will want a minimalist CP, some people want enough buttons to do everything.  Just remember there is a ALT button that can be used to minimize buttons on the cp by holding your alt button and pressing another button.

Also, it depends on what games you are putting on for how many buttons you want.  Remember, your guests are not going to know how to play every game and what buttons they need, so try to account for usability and self-understanding of how to play. 

[Drnick]

Are you planning on console games, if so then 8 buttons each for 1&2 is OK, if not then drop down to either 7 for a neogeo layout or go down to 6 which covers pretty much everything.

Nice to see the joysticks straight on and not angled. (Ignore any crazy people who advise angling them    )

I would probably move all those function buttons up onto the bezel area or lose them altogether.  I have 2 small buttons on the front, 1 to exit and 1 for any other required function.  I don't know about having the buttons above the trackball, I would move them off to the side more.

Other then that it's looking good, nice to see you have got pinball covered too, Don't forget you want 2 buttons each side if you like games with dual flippers/magnasaves.

[uiucphoenix]

The setup is going to be at my work and it needs to be as user friendly as possible. That is why I was going for the necessary buttons on the CP itself without having to hold down an ALT button. This seems easier to me, but I could certainly be wrong. I think ease of use is always a priority, so has anyone had their system in a place when you will not always be around to show people how to run it? Are more buttons better or does it just mean that people will press the wrong ones?

[PL1]

You may want to refine your button selection to ensure that it is both easy to use and harder to mess up.

P1 and P2 only need 6 player buttons (7 for Neo Geo layout) unless you are emulating certain console games.

** You did start the design process by listing the games/emulators/software you want to play/use, right?  **

The Exit and Pause buttons are the two main admin buttons that contribute to an easy user experience IMHO. (No need to do alt/shifted functions if you set it up right.)

Admin buttons for menu and reset are probably not needed after initial setup and menu may cause more trouble than it is worth if co-workers accidently mess up your settings.

Mouse buttons are probably not needed either.

For the pinball buttons, you may want to add a second button on each side for Upper Flipper/MagnaSave, a button on the front for ball launcher, and 3 buttons for R/L/Up Nudge.

For related info on Visual/Future Pinball controls and wiring tips, use BYOAC's search for "MagnaSave" and author "PL1".


Scott

[BadMouth]

IMO, Your outside (P3/P4) should be appropriately angled for screen viewing and the angle of your CP, not straight on. 

I'd disagree with that.  They look good to me.  Joysticks should remain parallel to the screen, not angled.

The only thing I would change is having 8 buttons for player 1 and 2.
No arcade game will use more than 6. 
Playing a console game that used that many buttons could get confusing.

So, I'm pretty much just restating what Drnick said. 

[Xiaou2]

MO, Your outside (P3/P4) should be appropriately angled for screen viewing and the angle of your CP, not straight on.

 Bad information.  Dont follow.

A for the rest...   some things to consider...

 If you plan to use the trackball for arcade use... you will need about a 8 to 12 inch diameter of free space.   As it stands, your hand would crash into the nearest joystick pretty easily, with a good spin.    Buttons are not a problem, because they are low enough, and the hand usually arcs up as it follows through.

 4 players - Make a cardboard mock up and have a few people stand at the controls.  Make sure theres enough arm / elbow space.. as usually, peoples forearms flare out to a minimum of their body width.. but usually a slight more.


 Visibility of the monitor for 4 players is not dependent on player angle.  Its how far the monitor is from the player.  So make sure to mount the monitor far enough away to give optimal viewing for everyone.   Some cabs tilt the monitor back at a higher degree than others, to attain the needed distance.
(those cabs usually do not have  'blinder'  side-walls... as that would block the point of sight on side players)

 Angling sticks causes problems... because unlike a handheld controller.. you cant feel which way is Up on a mounted joystick.   And... even from a side stance... your brain often thinks  UP  is  vertical relative to the monitors position, rather than their position.   Out of all arcade 4 player set ups, there are very few that angled their sticks.  Most all of them are parallel to the monitor.  Its merely the buttons that are angled, due to angled stance and thus altered hand position.

[zanna5910]

IMO, Your outside (P3/P4) should be appropriately angled for screen viewing and the angle of your CP, not straight on.  You probably dont need all those admin buttons.

Guess it depends on scale of actual CP size to those that disagree.  If the CP is wide, then it doesn't matter, if its really small, maybe angling slightly gives you more room.  I'm not talking anything dramatic like the simpsons cab....  Guess no one else wants it angled... ignore it.  That design just looked a little tight to me.

[severdhed]

i think it really depends on what you want to play, but if mame only, ditch the 7th and 8th button.  also, i have found that admin buttons seem like a good idea, but generally are not.  you are the only one who will be using them, and once the cabinet is set up, you only really need pause and exit....all the admin stuff can be handled with a hidden/removable keyboard.  if the buttons are there, people will mess with them.  personally i like to move the coin buttons off the control panel, to the edge of the box below the panel, which not only eliminates panel clutter, but simulates reaching down to insert a coin.   

i think it looks like a good layout though

[DaveMMR]

Guess it depends on scale of actual CP size to those that disagree.  If the CP is wide, then it doesn't matter, if its really small, maybe angling slightly gives you more room.  I'm not talking anything dramatic like the simpsons cab....  Guess no one else wants it angled... ignore it.  That design just looked a little tight to me.

This has been discussed to death but real 4-player cabinets were not typically all that wide. Take Gauntlet - you actually could work the joystick from the side - or any - standing position since the stick itself followed the "universal up" direction. Angling dictates a very specific place to stand which actually works against the space-saving theory.

That being said, I think the panel looks pretty decent - just lose those admin buttons. All of them (maybe keep EXIT, maybe PAUSE...) You're just asking for people to screw up your settings having those out in the open. Keep a keyboard handy for those one or two tweaks every now and again.

[zanna5910]

This has been discussed to death but real 4-player cabinets were not typically all that wide. Take Gauntlet - you actually could work the joystick from the side - or any - standing position since the stick itself followed the "universal up" direction. Angling dictates a very specific place to stand which actually works against the space-saving theory.

Thanks for the summary, interesting stuff.  Never thought of it that way.  Makes sense.

[uiucphoenix]

Thank you all for the feedback! 

Here is the revised layout. I decided to extend it a bit to accommodate the upper pinball flippers and added a ball launch. I removed the 8th button on player 1 and 2 since we won't be playing mane console games, if any. I also removed the MENU and RESET BUTTONS and added an ADMIN button on the back of the board in case I need it. If not I can just disable it. As far as keyboard and mouse I was thinking of using one of the mini wireless USB combos that are out there:(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823852001)

This unit is going to be a stand alone pedestal eventually. Since it will be at work, it needs to be able to be wheeled to and away from LCDs that are hanging on walls in conference rooms or lounge areas. But for now it will just be a control panel that will sit on a table with wheels to see if it even gets used...

Is there anything I am missing or overlooking? Volume controls for the audio?

We have a Kong pattern cutter at work so as soon as I get the prototype built, I will post some images.

[DaveMMR]

This unit is going to be a stand alone pedestal eventually. Since it will be at work, it needs to be able to be wheeled to and away from LCDs that are hanging on walls in conference rooms or lounge areas. But for now it will just be a control panel that will sit on a table with wheels to see if it even gets used...

Something I was thinking of now that you mentioned it's a pedestal. If space is a concern and you still want a 4-player panel, there's nothing stopping anyone from actually creating two, 2-player pedestal panels (well, except extra wood and maybe a bit more wiring.) Have a standard 2-player, six button panel with the hardware inside and then a separate 2-player, four button panel that hooks up to the main panel. This way, you can wheel it out when needed, space it out a bit as required and leave it out of the way for the more plentiful two-player games.

Yeah, more work involved there but it solves all those "cramping" problems people may worry about.

Just brainstorming out loud, your panel looks good as-is. 

[PL1]

Another thing to consider is the order for button #s.

On 6-button fighting games, the pattern is this:
  123
  456

On 4-button games like Primal Rage, the pattern is this:
  12
  34

On NeoGeo games, the pattern is this:
  1234

No matter which pattern you choose, you will need to remap for some games.

The majority of layouts start numbering on the top row like the 6-button version above.


Scott

[uiucphoenix]

DaveMMR-

I've seen some discussion on it here: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=74620.0

Does anyone know of a successful attempt?

[Drnick]

If you want to go down the 2 panel route then get a 4 player controller installed in Pedestal one and wire up the buttons joysticks etc.  For Player 3/4 run the wires to a female parallel port (Make a note of what goes where). This you install to the rear of the unit.  You dont have to use a parallel port its just easiest as You can have 2 joysticks with 6 buttons each using up 22 of the pins.  you then wire up the 2nd panel the same and use a straight through 25pin cable. This way there are no issues with detection of usb devices being plugged in and unplugged etc.  I am fairly sure that there is a neogeo bartop on here somewhere that connects up a 2nd panel in much the same manner.

[paigeoliver]

I can't tell but the panel may be a bit wide for pinball buttons and even if it isn't then you may run into the problem of player 3 and 4 bumping into them (which will be problematic if those buttons happen to share wiring with any of your other buttons).

It is impossible to come up with a universal fighting game button layout when you have oddballs like Time Killers and the Mortal Kombat series throwing monkey wrenches into the whole thing.

I always put the exit button on the underside of the panel out of sight so you have to reach underneath to hit it. That eliminated 100 percent of accidental game exits I had encountered on previous builds (other people would always be the ones to trigger the exit, not me. Kids are especially bad at hitting every button on the panel).

I would seriously consider making that button curve a bit milder. My main cabinet has an exaggerated curve like that and I don't like it at all. The real Japanese cabinets generally had much milder curves.

[DaveMMR]

If you want to go down the 2 panel route then get a 4 player controller installed in Pedestal one and wire up the buttons joysticks etc.  For Player 3/4 run the wires to a female parallel port (Make a note of what goes where). This you install to the rear of the unit.  You dont have to use a parallel port its just easiest as You can have 2 joysticks with 6 buttons each using up 22 of the pins.  you then wire up the 2nd panel the same and use a straight through 25pin cable. This way there are no issues with detection of usb devices being plugged in and unplugged etc.  I am fairly sure that there is a neogeo bartop on here somewhere that connects up a 2nd panel in much the same manner.

The project he is referring to is this one:  http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,114435.0.html  Same idea as the panels; less wires though (you're not carrying over video/audio - only controls.) But yeah, Drnick explained it a lot better than I did.

I don't know of any examples off-hand but it should be relatively easy to implement. It's really only making a second pedestal and making a connecting to the main pedestal with simple wiring. (You can even make two individual panels that plug into the third, main panel if symmetry is a concern.)

[PL1]

For P3 and P4, you could make a couple of USB single-player sticks using AVR Encoders that plug in to the main 2-player panel via Neutrik USB feedthrus or similar.

You can store the single-player sticks on the lower shelf of the cart when they aren't in use.

This also allows the option of using USB PS2 controllers for console games with shoulder buttons.


Scott

[uiucphoenix]

Project update!

I was able to use the pattern cutter at work and used it to mock-up the top of the control panel in gatorfoam. Next steps are the sides and bottom of the control panel. After that I will wire it all up and make sure I can get it all up and running.

[Caparo8bit]

question why the left and right click (mouse)

[uiucphoenix]

I intend those to be Pause and Exit buttons. Since the unit will be at work, I anticipate a people needing to pause the game and also switch games (by exiting) pretty frequently. Is this a good or bad idea?

[PL1]

I intend those to be Pause and Exit buttons. Since the unit will be at work, I anticipate a people needing to pause the game and also switch games (by exiting) pretty frequently. Is this a good or bad idea?

Pause and Exit are definitely a good idea.


Scott

[severdhed]

that looks great.  i'm curious to see how you build your pedestal, since i am about to start a very similar project for my family room.

[uiucphoenix]

It's been a while since I last gave an update. We are all built and just need some final touches to make it as fool proof as possible and allow for one button startup and shutdown. We decided to go white on white with the buttons to keep a clean look to it.

Here are are some photos:

[severdhed]

that looks awesome. i really like the shape of the pedestal....and the white on white theme looks really sharp.


not that the black joysticks look bad, but i wanted to make sure you know you can get white bat tops for those JLWs...

http://www.focusattack.com/sanwa-lb-30-n-s-battop-white/

[uiucphoenix]

Nice! I was also thinking of tidying up the materials list and plans and posting them on here if anyone was interested. Thoughts?

[boundo]

Nice! I was also thinking of tidying up the materials list and plans and posting them on here if anyone was interested. Thoughts?

I would be interested in the plans and materials list if you would care to share.

Thanks

[thewisteron]

I would love to see your plans. I'm planning to build a 4 player panel as well and this layout looks great! Looking forward to seeing them!

[Drnick]

If you do get white Bat tops look into getting some white dust covers for that all over clinical look.   I like it, Lots. 

[keilmillerjr]

That looks amazing! I love the white on white. Wii style!