Hand/Button Layout for Fighting Games

[mamenewb100]

Well I'm curious how people here use their hand for fighting games and how their buttons are laid out.

First off, I recently had someone else (mameroom) do my first ever control panel with basic 6 button layout. There is a seventh button that I don't use. (There is too many buttons on the CP itself but that's a different issue) I didn't care much at the time because I just wanted to play. It was ok for awhile but I find the buttons are a little too far apart for my fingers to be comfortable. Also I probably have an odd way of using my hand for fighting games compared to others. I find the only way to be consistent at Capcom-style fighting games is to be able to access all 6 buttons at once in order to do execute good/fast combinations, so you don't have to reposition your hand.

Now the only method I've gotten to work decent is as follows: Top Row - 1st button - Middle Finger   2nd button - Ring Finger   3rd button - Pinkie
The Bottom Row is trickier since I only have 4 fingers and a thumb.  I don't use my pointer finger since I don't find it comfortable. Instead I use my thumb to switch between buttons 4 and 5. I actually use the Palm of my hand to press button 6. This probably sounds ridiculous to some but I find it actually works relatively well, albeit a tad uncomfortable. I don't know how people are able to do well at 6 button fighting games having to switch rows just to change from punch to kick and such. I find it time consuming in a fast combo and hard to get my hands back in position.

I'm just wondering how others do it and if their button/hand combo works well for them. Suggestions on spacing of the buttons or what method works for you? I plan on redesigning my panel for the best feel in the future.

[shponglefan]

This is my current preferred layout:



It's based on the Vewlix layout available here: http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout.html.  I use the one with extra spacing (36.5mm) in order to accomodate screw-in buttons.  One change I made is the alignment of the joystick.  I prefer mine further from the buttons (min 4 inches) and directly in line with "button 1".

As far as fingers go, I just use my first three fingers and move my hand up or down depending on whether I'm hitting the top or bottom row of buttons.

[paigeoliver]

I have never found anything more playable than the original 3x2 Capcom layout. The more ergonomic you try to make your layout the easier it is to get lost on it, and as soon as you do you have lost your match.

[mamenewb100]

I like to be able to keep my fingers on the top row and be able to use the bottom row without switching so you can do a combo for example: Jumping strong Kick, Medium Punch, Light kick, Light kick. It's hard to that IMO when you are switching rows. The ergonomic layout is probably subjective to who is using it but I would maybe alter the buttons just slightly to better line up with my hands but not make it confusing when switching buttons.

[Nephasth]

Grow more fingers.

[Unstupid]

It was ok for awhile but I find the buttons are a little too far apart for my fingers to be comfortable. Also I probably have an odd way of using my hand for fighting games compared to others.

Its your controller.. take tour fingers and put them on a sheet of 8x10 paper and see where they land.  Drill holes there...  Couple of things to remember,  when you measure your fingertips youll want to bend your fingers slightly (don't measure with your hand flat on the table) especially if you plan on having a second row of buttons.  Also if your hands are smaller you can also look at 24mm buttons if the spacing requires them to be closer together.

[Xiaou2]

The 6 button layout started? with Street Fighter series .. was laid out so that the edges of each button, were nearly touching.  This makes it much easier to keep on top of all three top or bottom buttons.

 I think as the younger generation of kids are larger.. and so they tend to space the buttons further apart.  This makes it too difficult for the smaller handed people to use properly.   Too much pain and strain trying to reach... which is probably why you have to angle your fingers just to get some distance.

 I recommend redoing the panel, and spacing the button as close as possible.

 
 

[paigeoliver]

Also, when you make a funny layout then you handicap everyone else you play against.

[mamenewb100]

I didn't know the original Street Fighter buttons were close together. That explains it and
sounds like the way to go. Seems my style is relatively rare.

[Lilwolf]

I don't think there is a real answer.  It's just the layout that they had at your local arcade growing up.

I have flat 3 on top, flat 4 on bottom.  I wrote some software (webmame) that allows have bottom 4 be 1-4 on all but 2x 8ways with 6 buttons each which has 1-3 on to.  Works for me.

[severdhed]

i like to keep the 6 button layout, but not in straight rows...like the player 1 and 2 controls on my showcase cabinet..



this way my finger tips rest perfectly on the top row, and since the bottom row is shifted to the right, when i bend my fingers, they perfectly go down to the bottom row.  I've thought about adding a 4th button to the top row for my pinky, but i just haven't really found a good reason to do that yet.

[Nephasth]

i like to keep the 6 button layout, but not in straight rows...like the player 1 and 2 controls on my showcase cabinet..

this way my finger tips rest perfectly on the top row, and since the bottom row is shifted to the right, when i bend my fingers, they perfectly go down to the bottom row.  I've thought about adding a 4th button to the top row for my pinky, but i just haven't really found a good reason to do that yet.

This is also my preferred layout, and the one I did on my most recent CP, the ZD Invader:

[paigeoliver]

I have the same layout as you on my main cabinet and I hate it. It is the single biggest mistake in the design of my rig and I would have to ruin an expensive custom overlay to try to fix it.

i like to keep the 6 button layout, but not in straight rows...like the player 1 and 2 controls on my showcase cabinet..



this way my finger tips rest perfectly on the top row, and since the bottom row is shifted to the right, when i bend my fingers, they perfectly go down to the bottom row.  I've thought about adding a 4th button to the top row for my pinky, but i just haven't really found a good reason to do that yet.

[severdhed]

that is why it is always best to test different button layouts on scrap wood before commiting to it on your actual control panel.  I had a standard street fighter layout on my first panel and it was fine, but after experimenting with different layouts on scraps, the curved layout felt the best to me.  I have not had anyone complain about it when they come to play it.

each person likes different things...use some scrap wood or even a cardboard box to test different layouts to determine what works best for you.

[shponglefan]

that is why it is always best to test different button layouts on scrap wood before commiting to it on your actual control panel.

Quoted for truth.  Prototyping is something which can save a lot of time/grief/money.

[AGarv]

As someone pointed out, the original 2x3 matrix is authentic, nostalgic, and most likely to allow for fair matches against guests.

The traditional 2x3 layout can become uncomfortable if you play for long periods of time.  If you are a marathon online player, or jam out in single player for an hour at a time, then an ergo layout 100% customized to your style probably makes sense.

FWIW I use a hand position where I hover my index finger over LP/LK, middle finger over MP/MK, and ring finger over HP/HK.  I hit the lower row predominately not with my fingertips, but with the pads of the finger segments just above where the fingers connect to the palm.  The traditional layout works great for me, some of the ergo patterns throw off my game.

[michelevit]

streetfighter layout all the way. this is the perfect layout for me and any game.

for games with only one button (galaga, mr. do), i remap the controls in mame so any button is button 1.

joystick  1 1 1
              1 1 1

for games with two buttons 1942 fire,loop

joystick 121
             121

for games with three buttons
joystick 123
             123

for games with four buttons
joystick 444
             123

streetfighter layout is perfect.

[Xiaou2]

the curved layout felt the best to me.

 Well, if only you play a machine... then it doesnt matter much...  but...

I have not had anyone complain about it when they come to play it.

 I think this needs clarifications.  For example...

1) Maybe all of your friends have very large hands.. thus a wider finger spread.
2) Maybe these people have never played something like SFII on a real machine... or are limited in fighting game ability / understanding.
3) Maybe these ppl didnt want to hurt your feelings.
4) Maybe they just didnt care, cause they dont really play often at your place, to warrant even mentioning it... which leads to #5...
5) Even if they mentioned it, they know you are not going to be rebuilding the thing on the fly, or just because they had issues with it...
some may even think rebuilding a panel, is like the amount of effort needed to build an Ark.

 So, my point is... that while you larger handed people may not have an issue with such layouts..  a lot of smaller handed people
will not feel it very comfortable at all.   Ever moment is a strain on the fingers, just to keep your fingers on the buttons... which also happens to make your hands too tight... and thus slow down reaction times considerably.

 Remember the humble Keyboard?   Probably 98% of PC Keyboards out there are flat alignment.  No matter how much ergonomic designs have TRIED to change this... none of their efforts have been widespread accepted and appreciated.  And thats even with store displays in which you are actually able to physically test the feel of the things.

 The so called Ergonomics of Arcade buttons is largely a farce.  If you place you hand FLAT on the control panel / mock up sheet... then sure... your fingers will extend to various lengths, making a nice curve.  However, you cant press a button with a flat hand. Same as you cant type letters on a keyboard with a flat hand.   

 Pressing a button with your hand flat, caused the middle joints to lock in place.   Thats like trying to hammer a nail in without bending your elbow!  Your losing all the natural leverage you get from bending your fingers.   Furthermore, the buttons are designed for direct downward presses.   Not angular force (you would at least want a wedge shaped top for this)  , nor even subtle taps... because most buttons have a fairly long travel... AND, most buttons have microswitches which cause major fatigue after long duration, especially if you are using them in an inefficient way.

 The biggest problem with Ergonomics... is that every person is differently shaped.  And so what works wonders for one person... will be HELL for another.   This is why certain game companies controllers, have made customizable adjustable controllers.
 

 A few things to note about Curved Layouts:

 Most of this got popularized with NeoGeo, because of Samuri Showdown's requirement for hitting all 4 buttons at once.
The NegGeo control panel wasnt very deep.. so they chose a narrow button layout to make up for that. Games like
SS, would have been very difficult to impossible to span 4 buttons in a perfectly lined up manor.

 The Neo layout works ok with SS, because its a very simple game, and only one button is shifted inwards.  Usually you only use two nearby buttons at a time...  so you can slide around pretty easily.  The closer button helps you with a reduced span for all 4 buttons at once.  However, if you had to try to use that as a normal action repeatedly all during a game session.. you would really be strained if you had smaller hands / finger spans.

 
  Another thing about Curved Layouts on Real machines...

 Many of them are on Japanese machines, using Japanese flat, or convex (dome),  topped buttons.  I believe their micros might be a little less pressure to activation as well.  This helps with the ergonomic issues discussed above..  But its still not the greatest solution.   

 And personally, I cant stand the feeling of convex buttons.  I really love the concave buttons.. how they hug your fingers nicely, and help keep your fingers locked and centered on the buttons.  My only gripe, besides the Fatiguing design of microswitch / hard-impact buttons... is that they are just a little too big.   Knock off a few MM, and you would have less issues with span.. as well as could get more controllers on a panel - with less predicament.   Maybe even make a  Drop-In 6button assembly.. so you only have to drill / route one square hole, instead of 6 individuals, with all the alignment, mounting, lighting...etc..  all built into one easy drop-in assembly.


 So in summation...  make what you want to make..  but be aware that others whom may use your contraptions might not be as thrilled with it as you, even if they dont speak up about it.


All this is coming from a guy who thought he was genius being the first? to make a curved 6 button arcade button layout.  That panel got scrapped quickly.

[Unstupid]

And personally, I cant stand the feeling of convex buttons.  I really love the convex buttons...

You are a very contradictory person! 

[Xiaou2]

And personally, I cant stand the feeling of convex buttons.  I really love the convex buttons...

You are a very contradictory person! 

      Ohh man,   this is what happens when you have had a 52 hr work week, and only a few hours of sleep per night.
>.<     Ahh well, will help with the bills...
 

[shponglefan]

The so called Ergonomics of Arcade buttons is largely a farce.  If you place you hand FLAT on the control panel / mock up sheet... then sure... your fingers will extend to various lengths, making a nice curve.  However, you cant press a button with a flat hand. Same as you cant type letters on a keyboard with a flat hand.

This is true.  However, even with the fingers bent, the index finger tends to be at a position lower than the other fingers.  So it does make sense to position the first row of buttons lower than the rest of the buttons.

At least this has been my experience trying out various layouts until I settled on the one I use now.

[Xiaou2]

even with the fingers bent, the index finger tends to be at a position lower than the other fingers.

 Yes, but your forgetting critical details, which change that whole argument.

 Place your hands on a standard layout keyboard, in a straight alignment on the keys.

1) Notice that your knuckles form a  3d arc, and so do the joints above them.
2) Notice that the distance from your knuckles to your finger joint to your finger nail edge, is pretty much the same
on The middle 3 digits.   So even though the middle finger is longer... the joint is higher on that digit.. and to it contracts to about the same exact alignment of the two digits on either side of it.     

 2a) Easiest way to see this... is to lay your hand flat on the table, then pull the fingers inwards, clawing the desktop with the fingernails as the fingers contract and the joints raise.  Stopping when your fingers are vertically aligned...  all the 3 fingers nails will almost be in a perfectly straight line.   At most, theres a  3mm  difference.  And that difference, is further reduced when you allow your wrist to leave the table surface.

3) Now, again, look at your fingers on your keyboard letters.   Allow your pinky to slide off a letter and down to where it seems it should be...
Then, slowly adjust your wrist and hand as you return it to the on-key position.   What you will notice... is that with only a 5 degree angle change outwards in your wrist... will make the pinky sit on the key with superb comfort... with all the other fingers also comfortable as well.

4) Switch back and forth, moving both wrists in and out, and comparing them and the comfort level.   What you will notice, is that the wrist feels better at that slight angle, than to try to snake it with a harsh bend at the wrist.   Meaning, it feels better if your elbow to your finger... is one straight line... rather than you having a sharp bent in a different direction at the wrist.

5) Notice, that as your wrist is in this more comfy position,  all the digits become even more straight in alignment.  And again, all digits, including pinky, can easily operate efficiently and fairly comfortably.  The pinky being the weakest and smallest digit.. and lower in the arc, still able to put in effective work without noticeable strain.

 So... unless you have an Alien Appendage... or a severely uncommon finger distance anomaly...  you can both operate a standard keyboard.. as well as a straight-6  SFII layout.

 However, if you DO have an oddity.. then make your-side of the controller for your hand type.. but leave the other players
controllers to a more average / standard of human proportions..  allowing for the worst case scenario... where someone, like a woman, (or man) whom has smaller hands... to still be able to operate properly and comfortably.  As, its easy for a larger person to adapt to a smaller configuration... but not the other way around.

[Unstupid]

even with the fingers bent, the index finger tends to be at a position lower than the other fingers.

2a) Easiest way to see this... is to lay your hand flat on the table, then pull the fingers inwards, clawing the desktop with the fingernails as the fingers contract and the joints raise.  Stopping when your fingers are vertically aligned...  all the 3 fingers nails will almost be in a perfectly straight line.   At most, theres a  3mm  difference.  And that difference, is further reduced when you allow your wrist to leave the table surface.

Now spread your fingers apart so that they are about 1 1/4" from each other on center (about as close as you can put arcade buttons to each other). Nice arc you got there.  Not a problem if you use arcade buttons the same size as the keys on a keyboard!

[Nephasth]

even with the fingers bent, the index finger tends to be at a position lower than the other fingers.

2a) Easiest way to see this... is to lay your hand flat on the table, then pull the fingers inwards, clawing the desktop with the fingernails as the fingers contract and the joints raise.  Stopping when your fingers are vertically aligned...  all the 3 fingers nails will almost be in a perfectly straight line.   At most, theres a  3mm  difference.  And that difference, is further reduced when you allow your wrist to leave the table surface.

Now spread your fingers apart so that they are about 1 1/4" from each other on center (about as close as you can put arcade buttons to each other). Nice arc you got there.  Not a problem if you use arcade buttons the same size as the keys on a keyboard!

+1!

[brad808]

The more games I play and the more layouts I try, the more I realize it doesn't make a difference.

Sent from my Nexus 4

[paigeoliver]

Now when I look at a layout like that, I get to wondering what the goal is? The two individual rows have a curve so slight that they might as well be flat as far as ergonomics are concerned, but they aren't all the way flat and thus you still need to learn where they are.

The Real History of Curved Button Layouts

The real truth about the ergonomic button layouts is that early Japanese jamma cabinet designs dropped the first button down a smidge for space reasons on their small 2 player 19" cabinets. This had zero to do with real ergonomics and everything to do with shoehorning in 2 people sitting in chairs on a small cabinet, in fact some models were actually horrible enough to be left handed on one side and right handed on the other.

Neo Geo came along, right about the same time that the Japanese arcade industry was switching over to 25" cabinets. They kept the same layout as before, just added a button to the end.

Street Fighter came out. The 3x2 layout was holy writ send down from heaven by Capcom, shown in even the earliest flyers. However the generic cabinet manufacturers wanted to support both Neo Geo and Streetfighter in the same cabinet. So they offset the bottom row in order to do it.

The generic Japanese cabinets stay like that, forever.

A fighting game community emerges in America. However it has a huge overlap with Japanophiles and people who wank off to bootleg VHS copies of Ranma 1/2. They see everything Japanese as being superior and thus they champion the cheaper lower quality japanese sticks and buttons, along with the ergo layout. In fact, they take the ergo layout far past what the generic cab manufacturers ever did, often laying out their buttons in huge double rainbows that they profess to love even more than their Import VCD copies of Naruto.

Capcom continues to ship straight layouts on all their dedicated cabs and in all their kits, not breaking from that until SF 4 which used an off the rack cabinet from another manufacturer, which still only BARELY has a curve.

This is my current preferred layout:



It's based on the Vewlix layout available here: http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout.html.  I use the one with extra spacing (36.5mm) in order to accomodate screw-in buttons.  One change I made is the alignment of the joystick.  I prefer mine further from the buttons (min 4 inches) and directly in line with "button 1".

As far as fingers go, I just use my first three fingers and move my hand up or down depending on whether I'm hitting the top or bottom row of buttons.

[Malenko]

I still like the "street fighter" plus 1 layout. Use the bottom rows first 3 buttons as the "jamma 3" for games like NBA Jam, Open Ice, etc and use the bottom 4 as a neogeo layout. However, I strongly encourage the OP to do what the normal people in this thread said to do, make a paper template using your hand, and prototype it with some cardboard /scrap wood. What works for me might not work so well for you, and vice-verse.

[eds1275]

I think that besides this topic being beaten to death, it is clear that there is no right or wrong way to do this. Do what feels comfortable; if your friends don't like it they can build their own cabs. Cutting a few blank panels and trying different layouts is 100% more effective than listening to people you've never met face to face. Printing out the button layouts is not the same as drilling some wood, plopping some buttons in it and giving it a real chance. Consider the games you like to play, and how many buttons you'll need to do so. Remember the games you played and what style they used. For example, did you spend a lot of time playing metal slug, samurai showdown? Start with a neo geo. If however you played a lot of street fighter maybe the good old 3x2 layout is most familiar. I wouldn't suggest doing a game-specific layout like mortal kombat or stargate unless it's dedicated.

Personally I went with a street fighter+"run" button layout, and have all games that use 4 buttons or less to use the bottom row, and all 5+ to go in order starting from the top. I wired the second and run buttons together because I don't play any 7 button games and it made it easier to connect to my u360 (plus coin and start) without running out of inputs.

 123
 456
2
or

  xxx
1234

For fighting games, I use 3 fingers - index, middle, and ring. I can do some pretty fancy moves just by curving my fingers ever so slightly to rearch either row, or left and right playing a neo geo layout. I will on occasion fire with my pinky. I keep my palm on the control panel and use it to pivot.

[shponglefan]

Now when I look at a layout like that, I get to wondering what the goal is? The two individual rows have a curve so slight that they might as well be flat as far as ergonomics are concerned, but they aren't all the way flat and thus you still need to learn where they are.

Eh?  The first row of buttons is vertically lower, but the next three are in line.  The top row is shifted horizontally slightly, but not vertically.

At any rate, it's an extremely comfortable layout (at least for me), which is why I use it.  And this after experimenting with a variety of layouts before settling on this one.

[shponglefan]

) Notice, that as your wrist is in this more comfy position,  all the digits become even more straight in alignment.

Even typing on a keyboard, my index finger naturally rests lower than my other fingers (which tend to be in line).  The only time I find my fingers line up perfectly in a row is when at a music keyboard/piano.  But the stance is difference, since you can't rest your wrist on those.

[Xiaou2]

Now spread your fingers apart so that they are about 1 1/4" from each other on center (about as close as you can put arcade buttons to each other). Nice arc you got there.

 Easy to replicate:  The distance from the center of the 'a' key, to center of key  'd'  ,on my keyboard, are 1.5" apart.
I still have good arc.  Excellent down leverage.    Thats of course, with 3 buttons at once.  4 is possible, but its a strain.


 

Even typing on a keyboard, my index finger naturally rests lower than my other fingers (which tend to be in line).

 You Obviously didnt read everything I typed.   Try angling your wrist to match your arms angle..  and as for your arms, put them at like a 40 degree angle. (elbows out)  Then every digit, including the pinky, will sit at nearly the same level.
The small amount of difference is so menial, as to not even be worth mention... especially for an arcade button.

[amendonz]

Curved > straight any day.

my hand makes a curve if I place them down in playing position, to play straight buttons I have to bend my wrist which for extended play time is uncomfortable.

[shponglefan]

You Obviously didnt read everything I typed.   Try angling your wrist to match your arms angle..  and as for your arms, put them at like a 40 degree angle. (elbows out)  Then every digit, including the pinky, will sit at nearly the same level.
The small amount of difference is so menial, as to not even be worth mention... especially for an arcade button.

...

Look, you can keep arguing this but you're not changing the facts for me.  Whether on my computer keyboard or at an arcade, my index finger naturally rests lower than the rest of my fingers.  The difference is not "so menial, as to not even be worth mention".  It's actually significant, hence I find a layout with the first two arcade buttons lower than the rest to be considerably more comfortable.

Now, maybe in your case your fingers all rest in the line, who knows?  That's the beauty of arcade layouts though.  We each get to build our own.

[Nephasth]

You Obviously didnt read everything I typed.

Quit posting walls o' text. You should be able to get your point across in a few sentences.

[Malenko]

You Obviously didnt read everything I typed.

Quit posting walls o' text. You should be able to get your point across in a few sentences.

Being succinct is not his forte. I think he should post a picture instead of a reply, because pictures are only worth a thousand words.

[Xiaou2]

Quit posting walls o' text. You should be able to get your point across in a few sentences.

1) Not every point or point(s), can be answered with a single paragraph.   Especially complex subjects with multiple facets.

2)  Leaving out details often leads to confusion and misinterpretation.. or a later reply with the missing information.

3)  If the information is relavent and interesting, people will read it.   If its not for you, then dont complain about it.  Just dont read it.

[brad808]

You guys ever consider that your hands get sore after playing for a couple hours not because the button layout is bad but because your old? ^_^

Sent from my Nexus 4

[Malenko]

1) Not every point or point(s), can be answered with a single paragraph.   Especially complex subjects with multiple facets.

2)  Leaving out details often leads to confusion and misinterpretation.. or a later reply with the missing information.

3)  If the information is relavent and interesting, people will read it.   If its not for you, then dont complain about it.  Just dont read it.

1) agreed, however you treat every topic and reply as if it needs walls of text. You don't realize people don't want to read THAT much
2) The same can be said for overloading with irrelevant information
3) You don't see to grasp that few if any ever read the entirety of your posts. Verbose isnt always the best solution, also if everyone tells you to trim your posts for length so that they might actually be readable, do you honestly think everyone else is wrong?

[Xiaou2]

1) agreed, however you treat every topic and reply as if it needs walls of text. You don't realize people don't want to read THAT much

 As said,  this is your opinion.   Im sure you have read entire books worth of material that you were interested in.
If you are NOT interested in it.. then neither post, nor argue with a poster of material you dont care to read.  Its very simple.

 I read long posts, IF I like the material.  And if I care less.. I skip them, and or dont even click on the link.

 You have some sort of Nazi OCD issue.   If mere post length bugs you that much... then I think you need serious Help.  You must be one of the most easily disturbed people on the Planet.

 

2) The same can be said for overloading with irrelevant information

 You mean, supporting material / evidence.   Or interesting discussion / facts ..etc.

3) You don't see to grasp that few if any ever read the entirety of your posts.

 Interesting.  I didnt realize you actually read the masses minds, and could get exacting figures on whom read, and how much...   

 Also, I dont post like an immature teen whos in some sort of Popularity contest.  (as you do)    I post for content, not for shallow Egosims.

if everyone tells you to trim your posts

 Hmm, "EVERYONE"..   Lets correct that for REALITY:   "If 3 immature, OCD, posters repeatedly spout the same complaint..."

 

 Mal, most of your posts are useless.  Shallow.  Even mean in spirit.    Spend some time looking in the mirror man, and start working on someone whom you actually can change, and better,   ...  Yourself.

[Ond]

DeJa vu, all over again, again.  I really think there needs to be some discussion about angled joysticks, pros & cons & so forth.