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Author Topic: Solenoid Troubleshooting and a wicked deal me thinks...  (Read 2184 times)

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Toadie

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Solenoid Troubleshooting and a wicked deal me thinks...
« on: April 14, 2013, 12:04:18 am »
I made a purchase today and the net result was a 1980's Bally Space Invaders Pinball machine for $100 bucks   :afro: 

A little dirty but no real signs of deck wear, and no odd smells.  Every light but two works and everything seems relatively good to go.  I performed the diagnostic routines as per the manual and found that I either have an issue with all of my solenoids minus the flippers, or the solenoid board which left me wondering but why would my flippers work.

Any tips?  I've never troubleshot or owned a pinball machine before.

Le Chuck

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Re: Solenoid Troubleshooting and a wicked deal me thinks...
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2013, 02:20:55 am »
Flippers aren't run by the solenoid board on that pin are they?  I'd think it would be the board if all the others are showing faults. 

smartbomb2084

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Re: Solenoid Troubleshooting and a wicked deal me thinks...
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2013, 08:13:18 am »
The MPU activates the relay on the Solenoid Driver Board to enable ground for the flippers.

If ALL your solenoids are out... check the 1 AMP fuse located on the underside of the playfield.

Nice score by the way... the backglass alone is worth twice the money you paid for the whole game if in good condition.

ChadTower

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Re: Solenoid Troubleshooting and a wicked deal me thinks...
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2013, 09:17:11 am »

I agree that it sounds like the playfield fuse.  It will be hidden pretty well in the middle right at the back.  Pull that fuse, check it for continuity (never eyeball a fuse, that is useless), and if it's bad replace it. 

Be prepared for it to blow again, though, and if it does you have a short coil someplace.  And likely a short driver transistor for that coil.

Toadie

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Re: Solenoid Troubleshooting and a wicked deal me thinks...
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2013, 01:34:01 pm »
Ok, I'll check that out.  I took a quick run out to my shop and found a fuse underneath the playfield close to the front end (player side) of the machine.  Pulled it and checked for continuity... turns out that the fuse was good but I had butter fingers and dropped it LOL.  So I need a new fuse but this may have been a blessing in disguise.  In my manual it says that I should have the following:

On the A2 Power Transformer Board
2 x #18 - 20A, 32V, 3AG
1 x #15 - 3/4A, 250V, 3AG, S.B
1 x #16 - 4A, 32V, 3AG
1 X #17 - 5A,32v, 3AG
1 x #19 - 3A, 125V, 3AG, S.B


On the A3: Solenoid Driver Board
1 x #60 - 8 AG - 3 / 16 A

and a miscellaneous fuse but it doesn't say where it goes which is supposed to be 1A 3AG Slow Blow (Play Field Solenoid Protection)  I'm guessing that's the one I dropped.  I couldn't see anything mid way but I'll go back out and check.  Here's a pic in case you're curious.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 03:13:45 pm by Toadie »

Toadie

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Re: Solenoid Troubleshooting and a wicked deal me thinks...
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2013, 02:07:56 pm »
In case anyone cares, here's how it looks after a good cleaning





Toadie

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Re: Solenoid Troubleshooting and a wicked deal me thinks...
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2013, 03:10:47 pm »
Flippers aren't run by the solenoid board on that pin are they?  I'd think it would be the board if all the others are showing faults.

You know what Le Chuck, you must be right.

So here's where I'm at but first let me get the right terminology down so I don't frustrate everyone...

What would you call this?


I think it's a solenoid but maybe I'm wrong?  In the manual it calls is a solenoid and in the self test under solenoid identification it's called KI RELAY (FLIPPER ENABLE)

This one self test goes through the following:

01 Outhole Kicker
02 Knocker
03 Left Sling Shot
04 Right Sling Shot
05 Left Thumper Bumper
06 Right Thumper Bumper
07 Bottom Thumper Bumper
08 3 Drop Target Reset
09 Single Drop Target
10 Coin Lockout Door
11 Ki Relay (Flipper Enable)

The only one firing is #11

I went through all the fuses today and they all have good continuity.  I also did the self test again to see if my dropping the fuse made a difference in the solenoid identification test and it did not.  The flippers still fire when it cycled through to #11.

So good play field fuse, same behavior regardless if the fuse in in place.  Solenoid board?

« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 03:17:16 pm by Toadie »

Nephasth

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Re: Solenoid Troubleshooting and a wicked deal me thinks...
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2013, 05:30:14 pm »
Badass! Beats paying $100 for an empty cabinet with no backbox, 4 legs, and a coin door. You made out like a bandit! :cheers:

ChadTower

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Re: Solenoid Troubleshooting and a wicked deal me thinks...
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2013, 08:16:09 pm »

That's not a relay.  That's a solenoid.  It looks like it probably is a drop target reset coil.

A relay is an assembly that includes a solenoid.  Basically it is switch that is electronically controlled by powering the solenoid when required in order to change the state of the switch.  A relay is usually a small solenoid/switch assembly in a clear plastic case. 

If all of the fuses are good, and are not blowing, and you still have all dead coils... hrm, make sure that all connectors are actually connected.  Then go to pinwiki.org and look up how to test for voltage at the coil itself.  That's the start of your debugging process.



smartbomb2084

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Re: Solenoid Troubleshooting and a wicked deal me thinks...
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2013, 09:55:45 pm »
The Flipper Enable Relay is on the Solenoid Driver Board between J1 and J2...its working.

Have you measured for 43VDC at the playfield coils?

Toadie

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Re: Solenoid Troubleshooting and a wicked deal me thinks...
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2013, 08:23:44 pm »
So I wanted to chime back in and put in an update.  I figured I was over my head so I had someone come out and take a look.  Turns out that the MPU and Solenoid Driver Boards are bad.

ChadTower

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Re: Solenoid Troubleshooting and a wicked deal me thinks...
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2013, 08:46:01 pm »

"Bad boards" can mean a lot of things.  Any idea what is wrong?

Toadie

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Re: Solenoid Troubleshooting and a wicked deal me thinks...
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2013, 10:11:06 pm »
Yeah sorry, I'm out of town for a week so I'll put up some pics when I get back.

The MPU board is pretty corroded it seems and apparently it's from mouse urine.  Note that the previous own had this machine in his garage for 10 years.  I had cleaned up some mouse poop in the main chassis but there wasn't that much in the back board area.  On the solenoid driver board he grounded the entire bottom row and only one or two of the things were firing.  I'm being vague because I have no idea what I'm talking about lol.  He also mentioned that one of my capacitors was tuna fished.

Toadie

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Re: Solenoid Troubleshooting and a wicked deal me thinks...
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2013, 05:21:12 pm »
and the drama continues  :banghead:

Ok, so new MPU, new solenoid driver board...

Plugged in the machine and everything looked good.  I don't recall hearing anything odd other than the power supply making a louder than normal hum.  The boards looked good, I didn't see anything odd, so I started looking at bulbs that weren't lighting up.  Power supply went quiet, then back to a hum, and pop... magic smoke got let out.

Not knowing what happened I unplugged the machine, pulled the glass, and noted that the coil that pushes the ball into the launch tray burned out.  I also blew fuse 4 and 5 on the power supply which are a 5 and 20A respectively.

Replaced the fuses, unsoldered the wires from that coil, plugged the machine back in and everything seems to work fine.

Called the solenoid driver board supplier and he asked me to send it back for replacement.  Now I guess I just need to find a new coil for that piece.

Quick question though... ah.. I should post a picture.  Stand by

Toadie

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Re: Solenoid Troubleshooting and a wicked deal me thinks...
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2013, 06:30:07 pm »
How do I get this small little pin out?  I've tried every tool I can think of...



TopJimmyCooks

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Re: Solenoid Troubleshooting and a wicked deal me thinks...
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2013, 09:13:00 pm »
proper tool is called a pin punch.  http://www.harborfreight.com/5-piece-long-drive-pin-punch-set-93111.html

you can also use a correctly sized nail or screw, another roll pin the same size, or a piece of a drill bit to hammer it through.  If you have a vise that will help, otherwise do it over a hole to give clearance for the pin to go through when it pops out. 

Toadie

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Re: Solenoid Troubleshooting and a wicked deal me thinks...
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2013, 09:25:30 pm »
ah cool, thank you.

Me now thinks it wasn't such a wicked deal lol