Joystick advice: shortest throw, natively/moddable into top fire

[Retrieving]

Hello everyone.

I'm currently using a Sanwa JLJ-PL2-8V and have been doing so for the past 4 years, problem is that the throw has never been that short to begin with (I mean it's shorter than your average stick but I play a game whose controls are time-dependant so even the slightest delay is a game changer and I had to mod the actuator and other parts in order to decrease it) and the square plastic restrictor (which is removable from the mechanism but I wouldn't know where to purchase a replacement) is progressively wearing up around the corners...so I'm in the market for a new joystick, which one would you guys suggest?

The characteristics I'm looking for are the following:

1. Short throw - what's the joystick with the shortest throw out of them all? Funny thing is that I tried both the Suzo-Happ Top Fire Super Stick and stuff like the Seimitsu LS-32 (and 33) and to me it feels like the former has a shorter throw compared to the latter...so I'm not trusting the charts you can find on the web anymore (wherein the Happ is listed as medium to long throw, whereas the LS-32 has short throw even though both the LS-32 and 33 are kinda sloppy), I'd like to hear from someone who's had 1st hand experience.

2. Short Engage distance

3. possibly Top Fire or moddable into it (ideally I'd put the handle of the Sanwa JLJ-PL2 on the shaft of the new joystick, I'd have to figure out how to prevent it from rotating though, any suggestion? I guess I could just buy a JLJ-PL1 and use that handle instead, although it'd be very expensive...).

Well, thanks in advance for your help!

[rCadeGaming]

What are you using the JLJ for?  Virtual On?  Bangai-O?  I'm thinking of making a dual stick panel for things like that, so I'm interested in what you come up with.

The biggest thing that would make that stick feel like it has a long engage/throw is that the handle/grip extends so far from the pivot point, and you have to hold at the top of it to use the buttons, creating a long lever arm.  If you could mod the shaft and grip to be shorter, that would make a big difference.

Then on the other side, moving the actuator and microswitches away from the pivot point will greatly reduce engage/throw.

Basically, for the shortest throw/engage, you want to move your hand closer the pivot point and the actuator further away.  You'd have to figure out the former, check out the last link in my signature for an example of the latter.

As for using other Joysticks, I don't know about native-top fire models, but for the shortest throw you're going to want a JLF with my mod or a Seimitsu LS-33.  Maybe you could then mod a normal balltop to put a button on top.  There are hollow shafts available for the JLF to run the wires, and I think for the LS-33.

Sounds like you're not impressed with the throw/engage ratings like those at Slagcoin?  Check out Kowal's pages for actual measurements (apply Google translate where necessary).  Throw and engage are physically measurable distances, the numbers don't lie.

http://www.kowal.itcom.pl/ArcadeParts_pliki/joySLS33.htm

[Retrieving]

What are you using the JLJ for?  Virtual On?  Bangai-O?

Neither. I play Sensible World of Soccer "96/"97 (an old Amiga favourite) online somewhat competitively. It plays a lot like a hybrid between a 2D beat'em up and a shmup, despite being a soccer game.

I go up against people who use keyboards or keypads, so I have to make up for the gap in input speed (the faster you are, the longer the ball will travel and spin, etc.) by using 2 hands (= 2 joysticks) simultaneously since the gameplay requires forward->backward and left->right motions for pretty much everything (shoots and long passes especially as you aim, fire and then raise the ball and/or curl it by pulling the stick back and then pushing left or right depending on direction, all of which has to be executed faster than a FADC shoryuken, if you get what I mean).

I'm thinking of making a dual stick panel for things like that, so I'm interested in what you come up with.

JLJ-PL2-V are most likely your best bet if you're going to implement unmodded, stock joysticks, lots of VOOT passionate fans use them in their sticks. They're very responsive and sturdy.

The biggest thing that would make that stick feel like it has a long engage/throw is that the handle/grip extends so far from the pivot point, and you have to hold at the top of it to use the buttons, creating a long lever arm.  If you could mod the shaft and grip to be shorter, that would make a big difference.

Unfortunately that's not an option, I grew up with Quickshot (cheapo and plastic-y) 16-bit era trigger joysticks and I have never been able to get the same feel from short ball-tops.

check out the last link in my signature for an example of the latter.

That's one interesting mod, I might try it out on a JLF and add into the mix a Toodles' Spark Optical Joystick sensors kit for good measure. That'd make one helluva replacement for my old LS-32 as the off-hand lever on my control panel.

As for using other Joysticks, I don't know about native-top fire models, but for the shortest throw you're going to want a JLF with my mod or a Seimitsu LS-33.  Maybe you could then mod a normal balltop to put a button on top.  There are hollow shafts available for the JLF to run the wires, and I think for the LS-33.

Sounds like you're not impressed with the throw/engage ratings like those at Slagcoin?  Check out Kowal's pages for actual measurements (apply Google translate where necessary).  Throw and engage are physically measurable distances, the numbers don't lie.

http://www.kowal.itcom.pl/ArcadeParts_pliki/joySLS33.htm

Problem is, I do own a LS-33 and its throw is not that amazingly short (in comparison, the JLJ seems to have a much shorter throw and definitely has a shorter engage, despite the difference in size, no kidding, no chart has ever taken the JLJ in consideration tho)...also the stick feels kinda sloppy (although I've never gotten around replacing the spring with a tighter one), same goes for the LS-32, so I really don't know whether I should trust said charts (I knew about Kowal's too, he's the one stating that the Happ Top Fire has a long throw) or not, things just don't quite add up as they should imho.

How do they even measure throw, engagement and stuff, exactly?

[rCadeGaming]

The biggest thing that would make that stick feel like it has a long engage/throw is that the handle/grip extends so far from the pivot point, and you have to hold at the top of it to use the buttons, creating a long lever arm.  If you could mod the shaft and grip to be shorter, that would make a big difference.

Unfortunately that's not an option, I grew up with Quickshot (cheapo and plastic-y) 16-bit era trigger joysticks and I have never been able to get the same feel from short ball-tops.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here.  In the section you quoted there I hadn't yet suggested using a ball top, I was suggesting to try modding the trigger grip assembly to bring your hand down closer to the pivot point.  Do you mean there's no room to do so?  You might be able to get some space by placing to mounting plate as to the surface of the control panel as possible.

How do they even measure throw, engagement and stuff, exactly?

Kowal's methodology:

http://www.kowal.itcom.pl/ArcadeParts_pliki/artMET.htm

[Retrieving]

The biggest thing that would make that stick feel like it has a long engage/throw is that the handle/grip extends so far from the pivot point, and you have to hold at the top of it to use the buttons, creating a long lever arm.  If you could mod the shaft and grip to be shorter, that would make a big difference.

Unfortunately that's not an option, I grew up with Quickshot (cheapo and plastic-y) 16-bit era trigger joysticks and I have never been able to get the same feel from short ball-tops.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here.  In the section you quoted there I hadn't yet suggested using a ball top, I was suggesting to try modding the trigger grip assembly to bring your hand down closer to the pivot point.  Do you mean there's no room to do so?  You might be able to get some space by placing to mounting plate as to the surface of the control panel as possible.

I meant that if I shorten the handle it'll feel like playing with a thick balltop (I have already tried that) and regular balltops height doesn't quite cut it as far as my playstyle goes.

Thanks for the link, I'll look into it.

[Retrieving]

ugh, Google translate makes Kowal's explanations nearly uncomprehensible...

"Top of the edge", "top of the largest diameter", shouldn't he measure each joystick shaft at a fixed height though? Hmm...

[rCadeGaming]

That wouldn't be accurate to how it feels.  It has to be measured at the center of the gripping area to provide useful data, meaning how far you have to actually move your hand.

[Retrieving]

That wouldn't be accurate to how it feels.  It has to be measured at the center of the gripping area to provide useful data, meaning how far you have to actually move your hand.

True, wouldn't that depend on how you grip the handle as well though?

He might've measured a trigger stick picking the utmost top ridge of plastic as reference point whereas my hand might be wrapped around its bottom with the thumb sticking up to operate the button on top, wouldn't that throw off his measurements?

[rCadeGaming]

True, wouldn't that depend on how you grip the handle as well though?

Yes.  He's assuming most people would have to center their hand/fingers around the center of a ball top or the widest point of a bat top.  If you really need 100% accuracy to your play style you'd have to take your own measurements.

I have no idea how he measures trigger sticks.

[CpCaveman]

a cheap way (is there any other? ) put a tight rubber washer/grommet around where your "stick" activates the switches, of the size that "feels" right for what you want, the movement would be the same but would make the distance to activation shorter, without having to change anything, once you have it set right dot glue it in place (easily scraped off the metal shaft later if needed).

[rCadeGaming]

Modding the activator is common, but you have to change throw as well.  If you don't keep throw and engage to good proportions your engage zones will be all messed up.

[Retrieving]

a cheap way (is there any other? ) put a tight rubber washer/grommet around where your "stick" activates the switches, of the size that "feels" right for what you want, the movement would be the same but would make the distance to activation shorter, without having to change anything, once you have it set right dot glue it in place (easily scraped off the metal shaft later if needed).

I did mod the actuator and the portion of the shaft that hits the restrictor on my JLJ with industrial grade rubber bands (they're tiny spare parts for cars) large enough to wrap them, problem is that they tend to wear out within a month of daily usage (I've got to try those heat shrink things sometimes) and past a certain thickness the whole thing just won't fit the curved corners of the square restrictor anymore and they'll make hitting diagonals a whole lot harder, if not flat out unfeasible...unfortunately this happens way before the throw distance is completely filled out.

Why don't they just make sticks like this anymore? It's such a simple yet brilliant, reliable and effective design:



...but seriously, what's with top of the line Sanwa and Seimitsu joysticks (which may cost up to 100 Euro each, like the JLJ-MI) still having quite a lot of throw distance past activation, what's the purpose? Is sloppyness somehow perceived as a feature over there in Japan?

[rCadeGaming]

Think out what an engage zone is and what creates it when using only four microswitches for eight directions.  Without a significant difference between engage and throw distances, there is little to no engage area for diagonals.  The throw distance isn't arbitrary, it's specifically engineered to try and allocate roughly equalivalent areas between the diagonals and the cardinal directions.

[CpCaveman]

make the hole the joystick comes through smaller/lower the joystick base (chock it down)  until its what you want THEN get the stick to trigger, get the feel you want with a few pieces of scrapwood and trial and error , sorry i mean... inhibit the throw with a reduced aperture of the dimensions required, then modify the actuator to activate inputs accordingly.

if the hole is already there can be made smaller with self adhesive rubber, it`ll be covered by the joystick washer/dustguard, all depends on how important it is, there`s 101 ways to get the result you want

[Gray_Area]

That wouldn't be accurate to how it feels.  It has to be measured at the center of the gripping area to provide useful data, meaning how far you have to actually move your hand.

My god, all this dirty talk!  Okay, Archer has me on fire lately. Um.  Anyways.....dude, if you have the tools, why not make your own base and shaft? The rest you can source.

[CpCaveman]

I agree 4 switches and a lever, its not rocket science, also it felt dirty typing/reading that, and not in a good way    need to feel cleaner wish there was porn on this internet thing, you`d think someone would at least have thought of it..... oh wait....oh god noo... DAMN YOU GOOGLE!! DAMN YOU TO HELL!!! great my eyesights the next thing to go... 

[Retrieving]

I agree 4 switches and a lever, its not rocket science

True, yet we're still relying on flawed, archaic designs and 99% of the commercial-grade joysticks out there are sloppy and lackluster (albeit cheap and most likely easy to fix in the event of hardware failure). Any 5 $ keyboard beats the crap out of even the most expensive joystick in terms of sheer performances (they're just harder to get accustomed to because, depending on the genre, you might've grown up as a gamer playing with joysticks in the arcades).

Anyway, I took the leaf microwitches off of my JLJ (cause they're noisy and just add unnecessary past-activation travel) and I'm modding it in order to allow the actuator (big metal metal disk at the bottom) to close a circuit upon touching a bunch of adjustable metal plates placed around it, that way the engage and the throw distance will collimate and I'll have a joystick that is quicker than anything else on the market right now.

I might post some pics whenever I get around completing it if you guys are interested.

[Jumpman64]

Just want to say that the Tac2 reference is great -- that was my GO TO joystick in my C64 gaming era.  You could pull off such quick jumping maneuvers in Jumpman with that thing.  Just a really great joystick.

[Retrieving]

This is what I've come up with; it's cheap, adjustable, took me just a few hours of fiddling around and works wonders:

Before (click here to see the pic)

After:



screw microswitches (literally haha) 

[Drnick]

Now that is quite literally Build Your Own Arcade Control 
And yep those Tac2's are hard to beat.  I almost feel sad about getting rid of most of my retro stuff.  Were you not able to find one you could mod or at least tear down to see why it worked so well?

Ahh, damn, just watched the video and that is what you have done anyway I always wondered why those sticks didn't break like the Clicky versions. 

[Dcpmark]

Not sure if this is what you want, but the MiniGrip Stick from Ultimarc has a really short throw:

http://www.ultimarc.com/controls.html

[Vigo]

Hrm...Interesting view on joystick throw. I personally hate too little of throw, it just doesn't *feel* like you are engaging. Unless the game was rapid shifting over and over, I hated the TAC-2. I was not a comfortable stick for long holds, and the buttons just sucked.

I really much preferred the Wico Command Control, much longer throw, but never felt sloppy. Those quickshots were were a good in-between, but they felt a bit fragile.

[Gray_Area]

That's a ---smurfing--- cool idea. Sensor-wise not far from an idea I had early on, but I was thinking a sensor ring (though after seeing yours obviously the ring would need spacers to isolate the contacts). Yours is almost adjustable, too, excpet the actuator would need to expand for the desired size.


I didn't even know about joystick brands or anything in the early 80s, just that the stock console joysticks I tried had varying degress of goodness/badness. I didn't really care, because I had a Vectrex and Odyssey2, and the system compatibility and performance of those sticks kicked ass.

[Vigo]

Aww, I want a vectrex! 

Back in the day, it was all about getting the coolest 3rd party joystick, especially for commodore and Atari. I had a lot, and by a lot...I mean most of them. (and half of them broke. The Tac-2 and the Wico Command Control were some of the only few survivors)

[Gray_Area]

@Vigo: dude, they're all over ebay lately. Some in seemingly decent shape and under $200. I've bought two or three, though none in the condition mine was when in the 90s I....very dumbly....sold it at a swap meet for ten bucks to some Mexican dude who thought it might be a tv. The biggest part is the joystick. Mine was in super condition, the whole unit was, cos I never spilled ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- on it, didn't touch it with foodie fingers, always kept it inside, and it had maybe a year and a half of freqent use. Jesus.

[Vigo]

Thanks for the heads up, and good tip about the joystick condition. I'll put it on my ebay radar. 

[Gray_Area]

Thanks for the heads up, and good tip about the joystick condition. I'll put it on my ebay radar. 

Dude, totally. The joystick not centering nicely makes or breaks the experience. The buttons not registering easily pours acid in the wound.