Skee Ball V2.0 - kid sized modern skee ball

[nickels]

Since I just dropped about $300 for wood and various components, I guess it is officially time to announce my skee ball project. Quick timeline: Finished my basement and wanted a new project to entertain the kids, use my programming knowledge, and to learn new woodworking techniques. I found a manual scoring mini skee ball project on instructables. Did some more research and found a thread here called "That's how I roll" which inspired me big time. So, combining all of the elements that I've seen to date I decided to go my own way for space, money, and skill reasons. I give you, my version of skee ball (Google sketch-up comps):


View slightly twisted


The dimensions are taken from measurement found in the other project, but scaled to about 80% to fit in my basement. The front of the table is 18" width for the ramp, plus 1/2" plywood on either side making the width of the front on 19" total. The back scoring section is slightly bigger, at 22" wide plus the plywood, making it 23" wide total. The front is 24" at it's tallest point, and the back is 5'5" at its tallest point. The balls used on this table are 2.5" radius wooden balls, slightly smaller than normal skee balls. There is no ball return on the side, it is hidden below the main ramp. The size is small than a real table, but big enough for adults to enjoy.

The scoring is done by connecting scoring switches under the holes connected to an iPac. The brains of the whole machine is a PC running custom Flash software (thanks to thatpurplestuff for the idea), and the marque area will have a 19" flat monitor with a soundbar. Here is an early peek at the software, but with no additional games yet:
http://www.johnkalnin.com/skee/skeeball.html
(use keyboard controls 1-8 for scoring: 1 and 2=100, 3=50...8=0. s key resets game at end)
The software will constantly evolving and expanding with more game variations. This is really still in beta mode as I don't even have sound effects in there yet and I'm still working on additional games. If the kids enjoy playing on the table I will add the LEDWiz to add lighting controls to the games, such as highlighting which holes to aim for in an alternate game.

It took me months to find all the materials (not done yet) and to figure out all of the techniques needed to build this table. I am in way over my head, but hopefully at the least this will be a good learning experience. Wish me luck!

EDIT: sketch-up images updated 2/25/13

[Nephasth]

Good luck! Can't wait to see this one unfold. The world needs more skeeball!

[wp34]

Awesome.  I've wanted one of these for years but never thought about shrinking it to fit. 

[Unstupid]

The hardest part of the skee-ball build will be the launch ramp... getting it the right angle is very important.  If you are going to use 3" balls and you scale the ramp down 80% it will cause the balls to launch differently.  If you are scaling the ramp 80% then you'll want to use 2.4" (3"*.80) balls, or don't scale the ramp. 

[nickels]

Thanks for the tip, but I did get 2.5" balls so the scaled ramp should be pretty close. I do expect the ramp to be one of the trickiest parts. I planed on making the ramp where you can adjust the angle to make it launch balls correctly. I am not doing it the only way I've seen it done by others (cutting out a template like twenty times, connecting them, and sanding it flat as a whole). I am going to attempt to make only the side templates, and then attaching 1/2"x17" pieces of wood in the middle to make the curve. Hard to explain, but his may help:

For image #2 my boards will be touching in order to make the ramp transitions smooth. It is how skateboarders make larger ramps, but shrunk down to work for this tiny ramp. This will make the curve slightly choppy on the bottom wood layer, but fine once I add a thin layer of Masonite or 1/4 sheet of cork on top.  I expect this part to be redone a few times to get it right.

[nickels]

I decided to start with the hard part, so the ramp has begun:


Once that is done I'll do the scoring area next, as making all of the rings is another task and a half. I'm still a little worried about how to cover the plywood leading up to the ramp and the curve of the ramp itself, but I'm sure I'll figure it out. I can try to bend and attach some thin hardboard to it, but the slope is small and steep. I was also thinking about just using a thin sheet of corkboard but I feel like it needs a sturdier material on the ramp to get the same slope across the entire length of it. Decisions decisions.

Hopefully I'll have much more completed after this weekend. We'll see. This project is going to take a while.

[thatpurplestuff]

Nice!  Excited to see how this build goes

[nickels]

Nice!  Excited to see how this build goes

I've seen your work, be prepared to be unimpressed! 
I personally can't thank you enough (or shake my fist in anger in your direction). Your thread is my main inspiration, and your hard work has saved me a ton of time, effort, and money already. It is overwhelming figuring out what to do next as there as so many options. I want to complete at least 2-3 more working Flash games before it is built. Also, I don't know how you go so lucky buying your scoring switches, but they now cost $58 for 8 of them. Ouch! I have more Baby's Breath colored rubber wall base than I'll ever need.

My wife is due to deliver our third child at any moment now, so I have to get to work!

[PL1]

I've been thinking about how to make a ramp and came up with this idea.

Start with a template/jig with two holes drilled partly through. (lower half of attached diagram)

The part in red should extend no higher than 3/4" above the rest of the template so it doesn't mess with the router base.

Cut a big enough stack of blanks to span the desired ramp width.

Pressing each blank in turn against the jig, use 1/4" dowel center transfer plugs to mark the exact place to drill the holes.


Drill through the marked holes on all blanks.

Remove the dowel center transfer plugs and insert 1/4" dowels on the template/jig.

Place the drilled blank on the template/jig and use a flush trim router bit to finish it.

Use two 1/4" dowel rods for guides as you stack alternating layers of ramp slices and wood glue to the desired width.

Use clamps or put weights on top of the stack and wipe up any excess glue.

Once the glue dries, the ramp should require very little if any sanding.


Scott

[RandyT]

I've been thinking about how to make a ramp and came up with this idea.

Not a bad way to go about it.  There is one thing to be conscious of;  A small angle when drilling the holes could change the height of the parts in the stack, once the rod is knocked into them.  I'd set up a stop like you show but on a drill press table.  Make sure there are a couple of solid reference points on each end of the part, drill one end and then flip the part over and drill the other.  It doesn't really matter where the holes are, only that the position is uniform, and that they are very straight through the part.

If you know someone with a CNC router, it gets a lot easier

There's also "Kerf Cutting"

[nickels]

Worked mostly on the ramp this weekend so far. I also cut and laid out the scoring area, but still need to make the rings. Here is the ramp before adding the plywood layer:



Here is the kerf method used. Looks bad but the whole ramp will get covered with a thin layer of cork sheet so all I need is for it to work:


Let me be clear, this is the first piece of plywood that I have ever tried to kerf and bend. Literally, this is my first try ever. So, keep that in mind. I cut the slots and soaked the whole thing in hot water for about an hour before bending it onto the ramp. Yes, I went screw crazy on it. It has some cracks, but I plan on using a little wood filler across the entire face of the ramp, then sanding it smooth by hand.

Now for the big moment - the first test run:


I was a little excited at the end. I am hoping that the ramp is one of the hardest parts of this project, so I was thrilled at the outcome. Time to go cut and rivet a bunch of rubber rings.

[PL1]

Looks like it's working great.

Before you get much farther in the build, would you mind scanning the ramp side profile to make a 1:1 printable template PDF?

Thanks.


Scott

[nickels]

How about as a jpg?

Here is the profile I created in illustrator:


It was created using a file found in the other thread seen here:


Remember, for my build I took this jpg (well, I used a high res tiff) and scaled it down 80% for my smaller table.

[nickels]

The scoring area is also in progress - and yes it looks much better than the ramp 


I am holding them together with painters tape because I only have 1/4" grip rivets which are too short. I will rivet them and attach to scoring area next. Also need to drill the holes for the balls to go through.

This is how this projects continues to add up:
=================================
40 1" L brackets (to attach rings to wood) : $15
50 rivets 1/2" - $5
50 3/16 washers - $5
50' Flexico Wall base - $30
22x34 sheet of pvc cell foam - $12 (a welcome mat at HD) this will be cut and used to make the ball hitting the score area more muffled.

Not to mention:
3: 4x8, 1/2 plywood - $100
7: 1x2 wood strips - $14
2: 2x2 wood strips - $10
19" flat monitor - $40
Spare PC - free, had one laying around
One rectangular pushbutton - $4
Two triangular pushbuttons - $15
IPAC VE - $35
wire -
9: 2.5" wooden balls - $25
8: cherry scoring switches - $58
custom cut cork sheet - $50

I have spread out the cost over a few paychecks so that it doesn't crush me all at once. Be warned, this project isn't cheap, but the end result will still cost less than a new table and will have 10x the amount of gaming options.

[Xiaou2]

Even with cork overlay, the strength of the wood underneath is important  (balls tend to end up flying and bashing, rather than just
rolling) ,so I highly suggest you fill the square kerf gap holes that are in the plywood (not just the cracked areas),
with some glue or epoxy. 

 Fill it on its side, by Capping one edge with some thin strip material.  When its dried, you can cut and sand  Once its dried, you then have
a solid form to sand without any flexing happening in the process.

 Another few tips...   Put something a little gushy on the backboard to help reduce noise from impact. Unless your using tennis balls?
Maybe even a few strips of hard rubber under the backbox wood holder strips.   In a real machine, they also use something like small sandbags for certain area of the rings, to help cushion the impacts.


 Id often thought about making a version of Skeeball, in which the long table section actually folds in half, and that is then folded back
into the main backboard area, when not in use.

[Nephasth]

Looking good!

Even with cork overlay, the strength of the wood underneath is important  (balls tend to end up flying and bashing, rather than just
rolling) ,so I highly suggest you fill the square kerf gap holes that are in the plywood (not just the cracked areas),
with some glue or epoxy. 

 Fill it on its side, by Capping one edge with some thin strip material.  When its dried, you can cut and sand  Once its dried, you then have
a solid form to sand without any flexing happening in the process.

I agree with this. Skeeball machines take a BEATING.

[nickels]

Since I read the entire "How I roll" thread from front to back about 100 times, I was fully prepared knowing that the scoring area "backboard" is going to take a loud beating. If you look at my material list I already purchased a welcome mat from Home Depot during one of my many trips there. The mat is made of closed cell PVC foam and is almost 1/2 thick. You can't buy this material at this size cheaply, so finding a welcome mat made from closed cell PVC foam for $12 was pure luck. I am going to use my scoring area template to hand cut the foam so it fits around all of the rings, then glue the cut pieces inside all the spaces once the rings are attached. It will make sense when you see it. Hopefully cutting this mat into the crazy shapes will not take me a lifetime.

Now for the ramp. Glue in the kerf spaces - great idea! Any suggestions on the type of glue? Can't use gorrilla or it will expand and kill it. I have tons of wood glue, but that seems too thick and will not fully fill the gaps. These spaces are only the width of the sawblade and 18" long, so the glue has to start thin before it is dry, and dry into something hard and not flexible. hmmmmm

Thanks for all the tips and feedback!

[RandyT]

Since I read the entire "How I roll" thread from front to back about 100 times, I was fully prepared knowing that the scoring area "backboard" is going to take a loud beating. If you look at my material list I already purchased a welcome mat from Home Depot during one of my many trips there. The mat is made of closed cell PVC foam and is almost 1/2 thick. You can't buy this material at this size cheaply, so finding a welcome mat made from closed cell PVC foam for $12 was pure luck. I am going to use my scoring area template to hand cut the foam so it fits around all of the rings, then glue the cut pieces inside all the spaces once the rings are attached. It will make sense when you see it. Hopefully cutting this mat into the crazy shapes will not take me a lifetime.

Be careful of foam if it has any bounce.  Before you do this to your backboard, lay the material on a hard surface (preferably the same material and framework you intend to use for the backboard) and drop a ball onto it from about 3 feet.  If it bounces higher than the rings you made, you might not be happy with the gameplay.  Cork was used because it compresses and deadens noise, without a lot of bounce.  The sandbags were used in the smaller holes to keep the balls in them, so something which causes a near dead stop in those is a good idea as well.  Flat sewn leather beanbags would do the trick, probably forever.

But I have seen these mats and was impressed with what they were for the cost.  I remember all sorts of re-purposing things going through my head when I picked one up

Now for the ramp. Glue in the kerf spaces - great idea! Any suggestions on the type of glue? Can't use gorrilla or it will expand and kill it. I have tons of wood glue, but that seems too thick and will not fully fill the gaps. These spaces are only the width of the sawblade and 18" long, so the glue has to start thin before it is dry, and dry into something hard and not flexible. hmmmmm

It depends on what you want to spend, and how much you need to fill.  For about $25 a gallon (I think....it's been a while) Home Depot has some liquid polyester.  It's used for stone patio repairs and the like, and it's a two part resin.  It starts out thin until you add the catalyst, but when it sets, it's very, very hard and durable.  It can also be sanded, cut, etc...

[nickels]

An hour of thinking and researching - this is my solution for the kerf fix:



The balls are 2.5" tall, so the mid point would be where it hits the hardest, about 1.25" up from the ramp floor. I imagine the plywood is now curved in place since the wood was wet, attached, and now dry. My thought is to unscrew the four slats under the plywood, one at a time. Also, unscrew the plywood only on the slats being removed. Now, I can fully see the exposed kerf from underneath. Mix glue with sawdust (of which I have plenty) to make my own MDF filler. Spread it in the cracks with a putty knife, reattach the slat, move to the next one. This seems like the best way to fully fill the kerf slots quickly and efficiently. We'll see soon enough if this works.

[nickels]

Be careful of foam if it has any bounce.  Before you do this to your backboard, lay the material on a hard surface (preferably the same material and framework you intend to use for the backboard) and drop a ball onto it from about 3 feet.  If it bounces higher than the rings you made, you might not be happy with the gameplay.  Cork was used because it compresses and deadens noise, without a lot of bounce.  The sandbags were used in the smaller holes to keep the balls in them, so something which causes a near dead stop in those is a good idea as well.  Flat sewn leather beanbags would do the trick, probably forever.

But I have seen these mats and was impressed with what they were for the cost.  I remember all sorts of re-purposing things going through my head when I picked one up

Another good idea! I will test the "bounce effect" when I get home. Judging by the materials used I think I'll be fine. The balls are fairly light weight and the foam has give but it is more spongy than bouncy. I really just want to lower the noise level on impact so I am hoping I got lucky with this welcome mat. I can probably find a cork sheet fairly cheap if it doesn't work. My scoring area/backdrop is 22"x30.5" - the welcome mat is 22"x34" so it was meant to be!

[PL1]

How about as a jpg?

Thanks, Nickles.

I saw those UncleT ramp profile pictures and still am not sure if the L-square or the pencil line is supposed to be parallel with the lane surface.

There is only a three degree difference, but I figured that might be enough to make a difference in launch angle and playability.   


Scott

EDIT: According to my latest calculations, the L-square is parallel to the rolling surface of the lane.

[thatpurplestuff]

How about as a jpg?

Thanks, Nickles.

I saw those UncleT ramp profile pictures and still am not sure if the L-square or the pencil line is supposed to be parallel with the lane surface.

There is only a three degree difference, but I figured that might be enough to make a difference in launch angle and playability.   


Scott

I was confused by the pic initially as well, but I believe the cutout that unclet made has the L-square level with the top of the machine (the entire machine, not just the ramp so technically the L-square would be parallel to the ground).  That pencil line is indicating the slope of the sides of the ramp (the X's indicate the area that would be removed if you were wanting the template to not extend above the ramp sides).

It's been a long time since I've looked at the measurements but I think that's how I interpreted the image when I was making my ramp.

[nickels]

The ramp has been strengthened! That was time consuming. I took some wood glue and mixed in some sawdust, removed the slats from under the ramp, and added a layer of my sawdust/glue mix:

From this:

To this:


I went from the bottom of the ramp to almost the top, way above where the ball will impact with the most force. I filed in the gaps on both sides all the way up, and I also filled any cracks from the outside, to be sanded once dry. Right now it doesn't look great, but it works so who cares, right. It needs a good sanding and certainly has to be covered with cork or something once installed.

I have also begun making rings. Woodworking isn't my strength, but apparently I am much better at cutting rubber and using a rivet gun. These rings are looking dead on real. I can't wait to attach them and add on some vinyl numbers. Ordering the scoring switches right now, so hopefully they will arrive along with my iPac very soon. I'm getting close to having a semi playable skee ball table, which makes me want to work on it non-stop.

[nickels]

Anyone know what type of overall slope the top area should have where the ball rolls up to the ramp? All of my measurement picts don't help. I am worried that my slope is too steep. Right now it goes from about 15" from the floor at the start to about 18" just before the ramp begins about 6' from the beginning. That is a 3" slope from the front to the ramp in about 6 feet. That seems steep to me, or is it too shallow? I can adjust this still, so I'd like to get it right. These measurements are very finicky, especially after being scaled 80% from the norm.

[Nephasth]

My skeeball machine has 4 3/4" of slope across 6' of ramp.

[RandyT]

You should make the slope the same as Nephasth indicated above.  You'll want to scale only the dimensions, not the angles, if you want it to be a perfect representation.  This is something that always bugged me about the smaller "home" versions on the market.  They don't look or play correctly because they changed those.

[nickels]

I will update my google sketchup and the measured marks that I already made on the plywood. I was trying for the correct slope since the beginning, but none of the pictures I've seen had those dimensions clearly indicated. It will be an easy fix. I just need to adjust the end mark to be 1 3/4" higher. Thanks again!

Oh no! This now begs the follow-up question about the angle of the backboard. I only have 30" to work with, and my backboard is 30.5" long. It starts at about 18" up from the ground, and end about 35" tall at the back. There isn't much wiggle room here, but I can make some minor in/out/up/down tweaks within a few inches. There doesn't appear to be a fixed answer here, as most machines seem to vary on the slope of the ringed scoring area.

PS - the bounce test was a success. I put the welcome mat upside down on the backboard and dropped the ball on it from about 4 feet up. The thud was muffled and the ball didn't bounce higher than the 4" height of the rings.

[PL1]

Your slope question is part of the reason I asked you for the ramp profile scan.

The UncleT pic and your JPG are referenced to the ground instead of the slope of the lane.

If the template is referenced to the ramp slope, it is easier to make a flat-bottomed jump ramp (red) and mount it and the flat lane (green) on a sub-layer. (yellow)

Cover them with the cork/rolling surface. (blue)

This will allow you to fine tune gameplay a bit by adjusting the angle of the yellow sub-layer.


Scott

EDIT: According to my latest calculations, the L-square is parallel to the rolling surface of the lane.

[PL1]

My skeeball machine has 4 3/4" of slope across 6' of ramp.

Finally got around to checking in PowerPoint -- this works out to 4 degrees of slope.


Scott

[nickels]

I have adjusted the slope for this angle. Progress is at a standstill as my wife gave birth a few days ago. I also learned the hard way not to rush cuts on 1" of plywood (the sides are sandwiched together) or my blade will bend, snap, and ruin the cut. Had to redesign the shape a bit to save the wood after that horrible cutting incident. Thank god I started on an area where there is room for mistakes. The rings are all made so I will be attaching them to the scoring area soon. My switches have arrived and so have all of my buttons, but the iPac is still MIA.  I was told it should arrive next week. I have new blades and will take my time cutting the sides next time. Hopefully there are no more cutting incidents.

[Le Chuck]

Congrats on the birth and the fact that you still have all of your fingers!

Looking forward to watching this come together.

[unclet]

I saw those UncleT ramp profile pictures and still am not sure if the L-square or the pencil line is supposed to be parallel with the lane surface

The L-square was to provide a "square" reference point.   The "Level with the Top of the Skeeball Machine" text has an "arrow" pointing to the pencil line.  The "arrow" is faint but if you look you can see it in the pictures I have attached.   I clearly forgot to highlight the "arrow" text and the line with "blue", like I did with the gap measurements, etc.. in the picture.   

The goal was to show that if you pushed the wooden template I cut out up against the side of the skeeball machine then you would notice the "top of the machine side (covered in yellow plastic" would not be a 90 degree angle to the flat part of the ramp.   The pencil line I drew in the picture represents where the top of the machine side would be located in relationship to the cut out.    Basically, I pushed the cutout template over to the side of the machine and with a pencil drew a line to denote where the top of the machine side would be in relationship to the cutout I made.  If you look at "100_0756.JPG" picture provded below and imagines you pushed the cutout template forward against to the side of the machine in the picture then you should be able to see how the side of the machine itself would be "inline" with the pencil line mark I eventually drew on the cutout.

The gap measurements I provided at the bottom of the cutout were required since I did not do a good enough job cuting out the template.  I provided the gap measurements so you would know the true curve required.  If you see the pictures of the template on the machine (provided below) you will see the gaps between the rolling surface and the template.   

Hope this did not confuse peopler more.

** Note:  I no longer have the machine.  I sold it a year ago.

[unclet]

more pics

[nickels]

Thanks - those will come in handy when I no doubt rebuild my ramp area!

Now for a button question: are Happ illuminated switches always on when connected to a power source? Believe me I looked around a lot before asking. Here is the switch:

oops - two prongs are mislabeled. NO is NC and vice-versa. The text below still read correctly.

The 3 bottom silver prongs are COM, NO, and NC - I got them to work with my iPac so no problem there. The gold side prongs are for the LED light, I labeled them + and -. When I connect the side prongs to a 9-volt battery the light goes on. Is there a way to wire this button so the light only goes on when the button is pushed and not all the time?
From what I gather the side prongs connect to my PC power supply by picking an unused molex connector.

-edit-
I got this to work away from the iPac like this:
Battery negative connects to switch ground.
Battery positive connects to LED+ prong.
NO prong connects to LED- prong.

When you push the button the light goes on. My concern is that to connect to the iPac I'll also need to connect the NO and Ground to the iPac ground and an open slot. Will the power supply lighting the LED interfere with this or short out the iPac?

Here is the switch connect to a battery working only when pushed. Yes it is only a 9volt battery, but will be connected in the same way to the 12 volt PC power supply:

Good luck reading that chicken scratch.
-end edit-

[ds015882]

Looks good...if your rings don't work out...I've got a set of real skeeball rings..I'm going to post later

[melvinbates]

My concern is that to connect to the iPac I'll also need to connect the NO and Ground to the iPac ground and an open slot. Will the power supply lighting the LED interfere with this or short out the iPac?

You'll be feeding back voltage to the Ipac in that setup.  It only runs on 5v so the differential will feed into the ipac.  As it's a button for a skeeball machine you might be able to get away with driving a dpdt or dpst relay that could drive both the led and the Ipac at the same time, or program an LED driver to turn it on when the button is pushed.

Build's looking great so far.

[unclet]

I would recommend dropping a ball on the side of one of those rings from about a two foot height and see how the material reacts.  Does it crack or dent perhaps?   Those rings can take a real beating.

[PL1]

Thanks for the extra pics, UncleT.

I'm still not sure about what the L-square is referenced to, so I made a diagram.

The lane (blue) is at 4 degrees, per earlier in this thread leading up to the ramp. (black)

Your template (gray) has a line indicating the relative angle of the sidewall, (yellow) but I'm not sure what angle that is. 

Which of the following is correct?  The L-square is:
1. Level with the ground. (0 degrees)
2. Level with the lane. (4 degrees)
3. Not referenced to anything in particular -- need to figure out the angle of the yellow sidewall.


Scott
EDIT: According to my latest calculations, the L-square is parallel to the rolling surface of the lane and the sidewall is at 6 degrees relative to the ground, 2 degrees more than the lane.

[unclet]

I'm still not sure about what the L-square is referenced to
Which of the following is correct?

(3)

I created the wooden cutout ramp template for a user as a reference a long time ago.  The user asked if I could please place a L-square in the photo so they could accurately recreate the curve in Photoshop (or something similar) by being able to determine at what height and length the slope curves started/ended.   The L-square does "not" represent "parallel to the floor".

Anyone know what type of overall slope the top area should have where the ball rolls up to the ramp

From all of the measurements provided in the picture below someone mathematical should be able to calculate the slope of the rolling ramp area and the slope of the target area. 

[unclet]

Here is another photo if it helps someone